Author Topic: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?  (Read 14338 times)

markbike528CBX

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2019, 10:43:47 AM »
Out:
I'm FIREed at 54. All family and friends know.
We drove across the US last year, taking our time.
Told sister I'd pay 10k/ year for nephews (2) college. 
I own a Porsche.
We went to see Mudhoney in Croatia, even though they are an in-state band.  (Total cost, < $1k, airline points, etc)
Out only here, I post in the 2m to 3m and beyond thread.

NOT Out:
We live in a modest house, built 1944, updates match original house style.
Cars are not visible from the street. We actually use the garage for 2 cars 2 motorcycles 3 bicycles.
The Porsche is a 2000 boxster with packing tape and silicone sealant over the cracks on the plastic window.
Our spend in the first year of FIRE <$60k
Wife still works 4 hr/ day.

use2betrix

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2019, 11:12:54 AM »
I'm all for not talking about money in public, which means that no one other than your partner should know how much you earn.

It sounds like you are saying that *no one* should talk openly about their income except to their spouse.

Why??? That seems pretty extreme.

If people know your career, then they know how much you make.

If a coworker asks how much I make, I tell them. Sometimes that makes them angry or glad depending on the difference. I had a coworker in my first job where we both made sure that we were relatively being paid the same amount and had similar raises.

Someone else I shared my salary history with seemed displeased that they weren't being paid as much despite having put in more years at the company.

As a software engineer, I would assume everyone knows that I make good money. The majority of SE's don't make the 200k range, actually I would assume most never break 120k. But even for the amount of money I make, few people ask how to become a programmer. They know it's tough and some people don't have any interest in the work.

I think similarly about doctors. I knew how much they made, but when I thought about the schooling, hours, etc. required, you literally couldn't pay me to put that many hours into a job like that despite the money. I don't begrudge any doctor their money. (CEO's on the other hand...)

I can guarantee you that if I were to ask 99% of the population what I make based on my associates degree in a construction related field, certifications, and job title, not a single one would guess that I make even half of what I do. I’m somewhat of an outlier, but not entirely.

Also - I don’t know that I have virtually ever discussed my salary between coworkers and I think for the most part it is frowned upon by most people and by management. “Most” people get very upset when they feel they aren’t treated fairly, even though there are far more things to take into consideration than most people understand. Experience is only a part of it, same with degree and certifications. What if the company was desperate when they hired one person and not the other? One person might have had far more leverage for negotiations.

I was on one project where I was able to work 50 hours/wk and all my coworkers 40. I was hourly and negotiated that 50 hours into my sign on agreement. Because it’s somewhat harder to hide how many hours I was working, this actually made a lot of coworkers livid because they wanted to overtime. I just made it very clear, I wouldn’t be there working unless I was given 50 hours/wk. Clearly they accepted the 40 hr/wk schedule and that was not my issue.

Most people see the numbers and see red. If they are hiring two people with the exact same experience and qualifications, they might offer them both $100k and one accepts on the spot, and the other might say “I’ll only accept for $120k” which the employer feels is still worthwhile for them to accept. Do you think the company will then turn to the other employee and state, “Well, someone else negotiated $120k, so even though you accepted $100k, we’re going to just automatically bump your pay up to make it fair.”

I see people on this forum all the time the exact same. “OMG my coworkers making more and that’s not fair because (insert tons of excuses instead of personal responsibility)”

Cassie

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2019, 11:23:40 AM »
Spartans, I find it odd that people try to convince you to return to work.  I don’t understand why people care.   I discuss finances with my BF and she has occasionally asked for advice.  When my parents were alive they knew.

merula

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2019, 11:44:02 AM »
Several folks have commented on the idea that if people know what you do, they know about how much you make. How generally true is that? At least for interacting with folks who don't know me well, I can describe my job honestly in several different ways that seem to produce very different mental expectations about how much I make.

Yeah, I don't think that's true. It can be true for some jobs (surgeon, teacher, retail), but in my experience, there are a TON of jobs that the general public doesn't know about.

I work in insurance. When people think "insurance" they think either the door-to-door salesman, the claims person or the call-center person. If they're in the financial services industry, they MIGHT realize that my job family (underwriting) exists, but most people don't.

Also, job titles even within an industry can vary widely. A "Vice President" at an insurance carrier is one of the highest levels before C-suite. A "Vice President" at an insurance broker (Aon, Marsh, Willis), is fresh out of college.

Laura33

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2019, 11:46:47 AM »
Several folks have commented on the idea that if people know what you do, they know about how much you make. How generally true is that? At least for interacting with folks who don't know me well, I can describe my job honestly in several different ways that seem to produce very different mental expectations about how much I make.

Low income: "I work at (local university)" if questioned can I follow up with "Yeah, I teach in (name of department)."

Medium income: "I'm a professor over at (local university)" if questioned I can follow up with "Yeah, I work on (name of field of study which is quite different from name of department)."

High income: "I'm a (name for people who work in my field, either in the public or private sectors)" if questioned I can follow up with "Right now I have a startup working on (stuff) and a faculty position over at (local university)."

All three answers are honest (if sometimes a little incomplete), but I do notice the different presentations elicit different reactions. It can be useful for trying to calibrate to reduce apparent gaps in socioeconomic status with people you meet, which in turn generally leads to more interesting conversations than if the other person decides there is a big gulf in either direction.

But mostly I just try to avoid talking about myself to begin with.

I do the same thing.  I generally say "I'm a lawyer" or "I work at a small law firm," vs. "I'm a partner in a law firm."  But I actually do that to try to convey a more accurate impression -- if you say "I'm a partner in a law firm," people tend to assume you make seven figures, and I very much do not even approach that level.  So I tend to downplay the description -- not in the "I went to school in Boston" (a/k/a Harvard) false-modesty way, but to try to give people a better sense of how much money/power I actually don't have.  ;-)

doingfine

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2019, 11:47:38 AM »
I would classify ourselves as on the low-end of wealthy for the country, although near the top for our ages, hoping to FIRE between 45-50. I guess we have always somewhat inadvertently been 'not out'. We live in the same 1500 sq. ft. house I bought in my early 20's. We drive nice-ish cars that largely fly under the radar. For years we drove only much older vehicles. Nobody, family or otherwise, has ever made any comment about money to us, so we must be holding things close to our chest.

Things we spend on - maintaining the house, gardeners, and so on. I have a vintage sports car that only comes out in the summer. We take a vacation to a fancy spot 1-3 weeks/year. Our daughter is in a private school.

mathlete

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2019, 11:47:56 AM »
Out:
I'm FIREed at 54. All family and friends know.
We drove across the US last year, taking our time.
Told sister I'd pay 10k/ year for nephews (2) college. 
I own a Porsche.
We went to see Mudhoney in Croatia, even though they are an in-state band.  (Total cost, < $1k, airline points, etc)
Out only here, I post in the 2m to 3m and beyond thread.

NOT Out:
We live in a modest house, built 1944, updates match original house style.
Cars are not visible from the street. We actually use the garage for 2 cars 2 motorcycles 3 bicycles.
The Porsche is a 2000 boxster with packing tape and silicone sealant over the cracks on the plastic window.
Our spend in the first year of FIRE <$60k
Wife still works 4 hr/ day.

Your life sounds awesome. Esp. the bold!

Good on you for paying the youngsters' college bill!

ice1717

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2019, 12:19:42 PM »
Several folks have commented on the idea that if people know what you do, they know about how much you make. How generally true is that? 

I don't think this is as true as many on the forum make it to be.  Professionals have an idea of what other professionals make, but even that is fairly broad.  My Mother-In-Law knows my job history and current title, but coming from a non-white collar profession I bet I make at least 3-4x more than what she thinks I do.  Outside of being a "named degree" like engineer, doctor, nurse, teacher, etc. it isn't always easy to peg what a title makes.  Ex: how much do you think a VP of a bank makes?  VP for a private company? VP for a large company? A plumber? A construction manager?

merlin7676

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2019, 12:37:28 PM »
We're not wealthy although we are very well off.  We don't drive fancy cars or anything like that but we do have iphones, buying a new construction house, and take vacations as we see fit. So we're not as mustachian as we could be but it's what works for us. We're still actively saving a bunch of money so we can retire when we're ready and be comfortable.

So I guess we're kinda "out".  Although most of our family and friends seem to think we're rich. We've had several comments over the past few years about how we must make a ton of money (we don't) since we can afford all that "fancy" stuff.  I think it's more that they just spend all their money.  Anytime they get a bonus or extra "fill in the blank" they blow it and then complaint about how broke they are.  So I suppose we are "rich" compared to our friends and family.

FIPurpose

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2019, 12:38:51 PM »
I'm all for not talking about money in public, which means that no one other than your partner should know how much you earn.

It sounds like you are saying that *no one* should talk openly about their income except to their spouse.

Why??? That seems pretty extreme.

If people know your career, then they know how much you make.

If a coworker asks how much I make, I tell them. Sometimes that makes them angry or glad depending on the difference. I had a coworker in my first job where we both made sure that we were relatively being paid the same amount and had similar raises.

Someone else I shared my salary history with seemed displeased that they weren't being paid as much despite having put in more years at the company.

As a software engineer, I would assume everyone knows that I make good money. The majority of SE's don't make the 200k range, actually I would assume most never break 120k. But even for the amount of money I make, few people ask how to become a programmer. They know it's tough and some people don't have any interest in the work.

I think similarly about doctors. I knew how much they made, but when I thought about the schooling, hours, etc. required, you literally couldn't pay me to put that many hours into a job like that despite the money. I don't begrudge any doctor their money. (CEO's on the other hand...)

I can guarantee you that if I were to ask 99% of the population what I make based on my associates degree in a construction related field, certifications, and job title, not a single one would guess that I make even half of what I do. I’m somewhat of an outlier, but not entirely.

Also - I don’t know that I have virtually ever discussed my salary between coworkers and I think for the most part it is frowned upon by most people and by management. “Most” people get very upset when they feel they aren’t treated fairly, even though there are far more things to take into consideration than most people understand. Experience is only a part of it, same with degree and certifications. What if the company was desperate when they hired one person and not the other? One person might have had far more leverage for negotiations.

I was on one project where I was able to work 50 hours/wk and all my coworkers 40. I was hourly and negotiated that 50 hours into my sign on agreement. Because it’s somewhat harder to hide how many hours I was working, this actually made a lot of coworkers livid because they wanted to overtime. I just made it very clear, I wouldn’t be there working unless I was given 50 hours/wk. Clearly they accepted the 40 hr/wk schedule and that was not my issue.

Most people see the numbers and see red. If they are hiring two people with the exact same experience and qualifications, they might offer them both $100k and one accepts on the spot, and the other might say “I’ll only accept for $120k” which the employer feels is still worthwhile for them to accept. Do you think the company will then turn to the other employee and state, “Well, someone else negotiated $120k, so even though you accepted $100k, we’re going to just automatically bump your pay up to make it fair.”

I see people on this forum all the time the exact same. “OMG my coworkers making more and that’s not fair because (insert tons of excuses instead of personal responsibility)”

That's all well and good, but company x shouldn't be surprised or angry the person who found out that the company low-balled their offer by 20% quits. Every company I've worked for is terrible at readjusting pay. Managers will often act the victim when a person comes back and says "I think I was hired on at too low of a pay, and I want it readjusted to be more in-line with my coworkers."

But this line of thinking has been discussed in several other threads on this forum. It's just the way things are, so employees will continue to jump jobs and employers will continue to accept higher levels of turnover than is really necessary.

Car Jack

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2019, 12:50:10 PM »
I drive a 2009 Ford Fusion.  AND IT's SILVER!  So of course everyone knows I must be dripping in money, right?


Villanelle

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2019, 12:54:41 PM »
Makes you wonder how many of your friends are actually stealthy-wealthy.

I actually think I could guess quite well and rarely be wrong.  That is, in large part, because spenders talk about their spending.  And I can see who has a new car (and a large, fancy one) every few years, and who doesn't.  I know that one friend, as an example, probably has an annual household income over $200k, based on things she's told me.  I also know she has 6 figures in student loans (not sure about the husband), that they frequently get new cars, and am familiar with plenty of their lifestyle choices.  And she has bemoaned that they "can't afford" to move to a larger home. 

Then I know the friend who buys most of her clothes at Target and yet surely has a very high income as well.  They do go on nice vacations, but there are few other frivolities.  I suppose some might look at them and think they are struggling, but knowing what they do and a few other details (her parents paid for undergrad and law school, for example) and because I think more or less like a mustachian, I feel pretty confident saying they are doing quite well. 

People talk about their finances, even when they don't get into specifics.  "We'd love a three bedroom home now that the kids are getting older, but can't afford it."  And they talk about purchases, "I just got a new XXXX handbag; isn't it pretty!"  "We are going on vacation and I had trouble finding a 4 star or better hotel with availability for our dates, but I just booked".  And you see signs of it--expensive clothing that you rarely see repeated, huge diamond wedding rings, "redoing" the furniture every few years, that major kitchen and bath remodel because they didn't like the color of the cabinets, etc.  It's pretty easy to ballpark what most people make, and it's pretty easy to see if they are Consumers, so I think it's actually pretty easy to guess who has a cushy retirement savings and who doesn't, if you are paying attention.


Dave1442397

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2019, 06:03:04 PM »
And you see signs of it--expensive clothing that you rarely see repeated, huge diamond wedding rings, "redoing" the furniture every few years, that major kitchen and bath remodel because they didn't like the color of the cabinets, etc.  It's pretty easy to ballpark what most people make, and it's pretty easy to see if they are Consumers, so I think it's actually pretty easy to guess who has a cushy retirement savings and who doesn't, if you are paying attention.

The family who lived across the street from my parents were like that. Not a year went by without some home project being done. When he finally had to retire for health reasons, they couldn't afford to stay in the home, and sold it to move to a smaller house in a cheaper community 40 miles away. As it turned out, they sold right before the property boom - the house they sold for 40k was up to 1.2mm at one point, and even after things came down it's still worth 700k. My parents paid 12k for their house in 1973, and I'm glad they have that equity to fall back on if they ever need it.

Spiffsome

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2019, 08:22:46 PM »
We don't talk about how much we have, but we do talk about what we're doing (investment property, shares). This is because I got a lot of my financial sense from watching my parents and grandparents doing their thing, and I want to pass that on.

SwordGuy

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2019, 08:43:54 PM »
I mentioned this website earlier:  https://www.shnugi.com/networth-percentile-calculator/


Median household net worth in the US was about $97,700 in 2016.     That means 1/2 of American households had a lower net worth than that.

Think about that.

The 80th percentile of household net worth in 2016 in the US was about $503,900.    I don't know how many people reading this just realized that their household has more wealth than 80% of American households.   Did you know that the 80th percentile threshhold was that low?

The 90th percentile of household net worth in 2016 in the US was about $1,165,900, something that many of us have either achieved or are aiming for within a few years.   

I would argue that anyone at the 90th percentile of net worth in the US is wealthy.   


To compare things globally, someone with a net worth of $4,800, who is at the 20th percentile of household net worth in the US, would be almost at the 45th percentile in the world.     Did you notice that a $4,800 is 20th percentile in the US?   $4,800!!!!


The 10th percentile in the US was even worse, it was NEGATIVE $900.

SwordGuy

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2019, 08:46:34 PM »
I share the glories of the info I found out about on MMM to anyone who is interested.   It's just to wonderful not to share.

I don't go around telling people how much we have.  But if they are paying attention, they know that we own multiple rental houses and I retired a bit early.   So they've probably figured we aren't hurting for money.

But if they just met me or saw me driving around town in my 18 year old salvage title car, wearing my paint-spattered t-shirt and jeans, they wouldn't assume we're doing well at all.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2019, 12:27:06 AM »
Out:
I'm FIREed at 54. All family and friends know.
We drove across the US last year, taking our time.
Told sister I'd pay 10k/ year for nephews (2) college. 
I own a Porsche.
We went to see Mudhoney in Croatia, even though they are an in-state band.  (Total cost, < $1k, airline points, etc)
Out only here, I post in the 2m to 3m and beyond thread.

NOT Out:
We live in a modest house, built 1944, updates match original house style.
Cars are not visible from the street. We actually use the garage for 2 cars 2 motorcycles 3 bicycles.
The Porsche is a 2000 boxster with packing tape and silicone sealant over the cracks on the plastic window.
Our spend in the first year of FIRE <$60k
Wife still works 4 hr/ day.

Your life sounds awesome. Esp. the bold!

Good on you for paying the youngsters' college bill!

Thanks for noticing the Mudhoney reference, mathlete.
It was fun ( bucket-list item) and Zagreb was a cool place.

Alas, at my undergraduate college, 10k/year is only 1/4 the full bill.
Some scholarships seem likely, so that would help. 
When I went to college, 10k/year was the full cost. I had financial aid, scholarships, parents, and student loans.
 10k doesn't qualify me as a high-roller anymore.

Another external sign of wealth, I was able to fly cross country on 2 days notice to be with my father prior to major surgery. As a Mustachian I did search for the cheap flight.

CoffeeAndDonuts

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2019, 05:45:36 AM »
Earlier someone said they don't think most people really give much thought to what someone else makes/has. I largely agree with that.

Being a bit self absorbed I suppose, I've wondered what others make of us, especially as we're starting to show it a bit more and definitely as I approach RE in 40s.

As I've thought about it, I think most that put thought into it would likely think they know the story yet not.

Anyone whose close to me knows I'm in personal finance geek, travel hacker, and frugal.

Few have paid enough attention to put together the full story. Some would focus on the professional factors and estimate wrong. Some on the frugality (maybe cheapness some would say) and assume wrong. Some on external big signifiers (big trips via travel hacking, home purchase in public record and renovation) and assume wrong.

Before I RE, I suspect most assume we have far less than we do. Once I RE, I suspect most will assume we have far more than we do.

They key is lifestyle. Pre RE, our lifestyle affords us a high savings rate but we there's nothing to show it. Once RE, people's assumptions about our lifestyle will likely mean they think we have far more because how could anyone do it otherwise.

I don't hide anything except a bit from family and coworkers. If anyone asks, I'll share more than most in the hopes the message sinks in or that I share some useful technical bits.

Few ask.

Metalcat

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2019, 06:09:38 AM »
Earlier someone said they don't think most people really give much thought to what someone else makes/has. I largely agree with that.

They really, really don't...unless they hate you.

Most people are far more concerned about how you are perceiving them to even give much thought to how they perceive you.

Unless, as I mentioned, they really hate you. If they really hate you, they pay close attention. The other people who might notice are fellow personal finance enthusiasts, but they'll probably just directly talk to you about money.

Otherwise, no one cares or notices.
You can even directly tell people a lot of personal finance details and chances are they will forget most of it unless something really stands out to them.

As I said previously, it's not the facts of the matter that bother anyone, it's being surprised by unexpected facts that can alarm people.

Most people you talk to will fill-in-the-blanks of what your life is like based on their own experience. Unless you tell them otherwise, they will assume you are pretty much just like them and they really won't give you much more thought than that unless you give them reason to.

So, it's really not that anyone gives a flying fuck about anyone else's personal finances, it's just that they've filled in the blanks for so long that the shock of finding out that they are wrong can be alarming and upsetting.

"I thought Bob was just like me, except with a shittier car, smaller house, and he never takes his kids to Disneyland. It never crossed my mind that Bob doesn't have debt like the rest of us and actually has over 1M in savings??? What the fucking fuck Bob??? I thought you were one of us..."

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2019, 06:38:02 AM »
Earlier someone said they don't think most people really give much thought to what someone else makes/has. I largely agree with that.

They really, really don't...unless they hate you.


In my experience, some people DO care. I've lost friends because they are struggling with money, resent "the 1%", and I have a difficult time hiding the fact that I am relatively well off. I certainly don't rub it in people's faces, but I live in a HCOL city where friends are struggling to afford their rents, and I have a very nice house, and live in a DINK household where we both have recognizably high paying jobs. They are living on the edge, or in debt, while I am able to travel and take time off work.

Ideally this sort of difference wouldn't matter. But for some people, it does. I feel it has strained a few relationships for a while until they broke. It's sad, but it happens.

I've noticed less-close friends' attitudes shift from being vocally angry about rich people and then when they somehow find out I am one of them, they stop being so vocal. They become a little more distant.

There are a lot of angry people out there in my city who feel like their lives have been aversely affected by the rich. There is a have vs. have not attitude here that is hard to ignore, and is quite common. Some people can just not get over this issue, even if it costs them a solid friendship.

Metalcat

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2019, 06:53:28 AM »
Earlier someone said they don't think most people really give much thought to what someone else makes/has. I largely agree with that.

They really, really don't...unless they hate you.


In my experience, some people DO care. I've lost friends because they are struggling with money, resent "the 1%", and I have a difficult time hiding the fact that I am relatively well off. I certainly don't rub it in people's faces, but I live in a HCOL city where friends are struggling to afford their rents, and I have a very nice house, and live in a DINK household where we both have recognizably high paying jobs. They are living on the edge, or in debt, while I am able to travel and take time off work.

Ideally this sort of difference wouldn't matter. But for some people, it does. I feel it has strained a few relationships for a while until they broke. It's sad, but it happens.

I've noticed less-close friends' attitudes shift from being vocally angry about rich people and then when they somehow find out I am one of them, they stop being so vocal. They become a little more distant.

There are a lot of angry people out there in my city who feel like their lives have been aversely affected by the rich. There is a have vs. have not attitude here that is hard to ignore, and is quite common. Some people can just not get over this issue, even if it costs them a solid friendship.

Yep.
I would extend the "unless they really hate you" caveat to include "unless they really hate people with money" as well.

bluebelle

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2019, 08:57:13 AM »
I think it's true that most people assume you're "like them", unless they have reason to believe otherwise.   When I started dating my husband, I assumed his salary was close to mine since we were both in IT, it was a shock to find out he made 1/2 what I do, and that pattern has held over the last 20 years. 

I'm assuming we're "out", because we're in the process of having our dream retirement home built.  But, unless you've built a house, you probably don't know what it costs.   And until they see the house, they won't realize.  And unless people have "done the math", they won't guess how much we have in retirement accounts.  My brother has a generous defined benefit pension, so it is doubtful he's done the math of how much I need to fund a 40-45 year retirement. 
I don't tell people what I make, some will have a rough idea, if they're in the industry.  But I assume most folks assume I'm in the 100K range, not well north of 200K (this is new, ....and we don't spend like we have a combined income approaching $350K....my car is 16 years old, his is 13, our motorcycles are both 17 years old.   We don't enjoy going south for a week in the winter, so we don't.  Most of our vacations involve a m/c trip and we stay in places with kitchenettes because that what we like.
What I don't understand is all my american friends that bemoan that they can't afford to retire.   I don't understand that, they're making at least what I am, what are they spending their money on?   Oh yeah, new BMWs and winery memberships and eating out, alot......they always point to the cost of healthcare, but wouldn't that just be a line item in the budget?  Budget 15K a year until you hit 67.


MonkeyJenga

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2019, 09:28:05 AM »
What I don't understand is all my american friends that bemoan that they can't afford to retire.   I don't understand that, they're making at least what I am, what are they spending their money on?   Oh yeah, new BMWs and winery memberships and eating out, alot......they always point to the cost of healthcare, but wouldn't that just be a line item in the budget?  Budget 15K a year until you hit 67.

$15,000 a year for decades is a lot of money.

I agree that some people are complaining about a $500/mo premium while spending much more than that on luxuries. But I have a pretty small FIRE budget, and healthcare is the one thing that makes me truly worried. If I knew I would be safe after saving an extra $400,000, that would be one thing. Still hard for a lot of people, of course, but I could do it.

Healthcare is unpredictable, though. The uncertainty is hard to plan around. The ACA has made it so there is a cap on annual costs. (This is assuming your costs aren't dental, which still has poor public options.) But the ACA could go away or be weakened. And if it does, and if lifetime caps go away, and preexisting condition exclusions come back, there is no upper limit on what an emergency or chronic condition can cost you. Even once you're in Medicare territory, you're not totally clear. It may be more resistant to political attacks, but end of life care can get very expensive.

sol

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2019, 09:46:30 AM »
healthcare is the one thing that makes me truly worried.
...
Healthcare is unpredictable
...
the ACA could go away or be weakened
...
if lifetime caps go away, and preexisting condition exclusions come back
...
end of life care can get very expensive.

Doesn't this just sound like letting fear rule your decisions, though?  You could just as convincingly argue that you better stock up on ammo because the rape gangs are coming for your daughters, or that you need a fallout bunker because North Korea is going to bomb the mainland.  Or the supervolcano could erupt at any moment.  Or your adult kids could move back in with you!

There is ALWAYS some nightmare scenario that you're going to be unable to weather.  There is no amount of money that will make you feel safe, if you're the kind of person who worries about this stuff.  There is always another "what if" and another "but what about" that will keep you working longer and longer, trying to trade away your precious life today for a teensy bit more security tomorrow.  You can't win that battle, because you lose a little more every day that you fight it.

I might suggest you'd be better served by planning around current conditions, recent history, and a bit of added safety margin around that.  For most of us, that added safety margin is the ability to go back to work some day if necessary.  In this specific case, if you're worried that healthcare will revert back to 2007 status, you could plan to go back to living like you did in 2007.  Namely, you'd have to go find a job that provided health insurance.  Oh noes!  Please, anything except that!  I hated being alive in 2007 so much, those were dark dark days...

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2019, 10:13:00 AM »
healthcare is the one thing that makes me truly worried.
...
Healthcare is unpredictable
...
the ACA could go away or be weakened
...
if lifetime caps go away, and preexisting condition exclusions come back
...
end of life care can get very expensive.

Doesn't this just sound like letting fear rule your decisions, though?  You could just as convincingly argue that you better stock up on ammo because the rape gangs are coming for your daughters, or that you need a fallout bunker because North Korea is going to bomb the mainland.  Or the supervolcano could erupt at any moment.  Or your adult kids could move back in with you!

There is ALWAYS some nightmare scenario that you're going to be unable to weather.  There is no amount of money that will make you feel safe, if you're the kind of person who worries about this stuff.  There is always another "what if" and another "but what about" that will keep you working longer and longer, trying to trade away your precious life today for a teensy bit more security tomorrow.  You can't win that battle, because you lose a little more every day that you fight it.

I might suggest you'd be better served by planning around current conditions, recent history, and a bit of added safety margin around that.  For most of us, that added safety margin is the ability to go back to work some day if necessary.  In this specific case, if you're worried that healthcare will revert back to 2007 status, you could plan to go back to living like you did in 2007.  Namely, you'd have to go find a job that provided health insurance.  Oh noes!  Please, anything except that!  I hated being alive in 2007 so much, those were dark dark days...

Jfc Sol, can you please not escalate my comments on healthcare costs to RAPE GANGS? I do take precautions against being raped. This was unnecessary and honestly your whole post is condescending. I'm not building a fucking bunker, I'm talking to someone in another country about our healthcare system. There are very real examples of bankruptcy due to health crises in this country.

I am not working longer and longer and trading away my precious life for more security. I'm FIRE'd. As mentioned, my budget is fairly small. I have some buffer for healthcare costs. But I was responding to bluebelle's bafflement over how healthcare could keep people from retiring, and your answer is to go back to work if you need to. Which is my point - if the ACA is screwed, most people can't retire without taking a big risk.

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2019, 10:15:29 AM »
Once someone has been out of the job market for a long time it can be hard to get a full time job with benefits.  Plus you may end up with a low wage. HI in this country is definitely something to be concerned about.

sol

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2019, 10:50:54 AM »
I do take precautions against being raped.

Of course!  I also take precautions against future healthcare costs.  But working forever isn't a good solution, just like never leaving your house isn't a good solution.  Living life requires taking some calculated risks.

I wasn't trying to be condescending, just trying to offer a reminder that safety is an expensive illusion.  It wasn't meant as a personal affront, please don't take it as such.

Quote
There are very real examples of bankruptcy due to health crises in this country.

Don't you think that risk has been hugely mitigated by the passage of the ACA a decade ago?  And the continual efforts by our government to shore up and support that law?  Republicans get all of the news coverage for their efforts to undermine it, but they haven't exactly been successful.  It's still going strong ten years on, and I don't see it going away anytime soon despite the fearmongering you can read in some profit-seeking corners of the internet that trade on your fear.

Quote
I was responding to bluebelle's bafflement over how healthcare could keep people from retiring,

I interpreted your post as supporting the argument that retirement is impossible because of American healthcare.  If you've retired despite this concern, shouldn't you be extolling the virtues of that decision?  I'm with bluebelle on this one, I'm baffled as to why so many people let fear of healthcare costs keep them chained to a job they hate.   The ACA very neatly solved that problem for millions of Americans, and is arguable the single biggest contributor to the viability of the modern FIRE movement.  By placing an upper limit on your out of pocket costs, the ACA has allowed ER types to effectively budget those costs in a way that was previously impossible.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2019, 11:52:26 AM »
Quote
I interpreted your post as supporting the argument that retirement is impossible because of American healthcare.  If you've retired despite this concern, shouldn't you be extolling the virtues of that decision?  I'm with bluebelle on this one, I'm baffled as to why so many people let fear of healthcare costs keep them chained to a job they hate.   The ACA very neatly solved that problem for millions of Americans, and is arguable the single biggest contributor to the viability of the modern FIRE movement.  By placing an upper limit on your out of pocket costs, the ACA has allowed ER types to effectively budget those costs in a way that was previously impossible.

I'm young, reasonably healthy, highly employable, and have no dependents and very low living expenses. I can take a few years off and wait to see what happens. In reality I will go back to work next year to support politicians who will defend the ACA, among other things. I plan on quitting again after the election. But I have smaller needs and less risk than many people. I can understand why someone would be nervous about relying on a fairly new program that the administration is trying to undermine on multiple fronts.

I wasn't trying to be condescending, just trying to offer a reminder that safety is an expensive illusion.  It wasn't meant as a personal affront, please don't take it as such.

Whatever your intentions, you were being condescending, and it was an unnecessary, antagonistic analogy.



On topic: I'm pretty out, although lately I hedge more with new people I meet. My friends and family know all about my FIRE, in some cases more than they want to know. It has affected some family relationships negatively, but luckily I have great friends who think I'm a little crazy but awesome.

With new intros, I usually say I saved up some money and am taking a sabbatical. Since I'll get a job for part of next year, it's technically true. Being totally open might cause friction with people who are struggling to get by with rising rents in this city.

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2019, 11:56:47 AM »
healthcare is the one thing that makes me truly worried.
...
Healthcare is unpredictable
...
the ACA could go away or be weakened
...
if lifetime caps go away, and preexisting condition exclusions come back
...
end of life care can get very expensive.

Doesn't this just sound like letting fear rule your decisions, though?  You could just as convincingly argue that you better stock up on ammo because the rape gangs are coming for your daughters, or that you need a fallout bunker because North Korea is going to bomb the mainland.  Or the supervolcano could erupt at any moment.  Or your adult kids could move back in with you!

There is ALWAYS some nightmare scenario that you're going to be unable to weather.  There is no amount of money that will make you feel safe, if you're the kind of person who worries about this stuff.  There is always another "what if" and another "but what about" that will keep you working longer and longer, trying to trade away your precious life today for a teensy bit more security tomorrow.  You can't win that battle, because you lose a little more every day that you fight it.

I might suggest you'd be better served by planning around current conditions, recent history, and a bit of added safety margin around that.  For most of us, that added safety margin is the ability to go back to work some day if necessary.  In this specific case, if you're worried that healthcare will revert back to 2007 status, you could plan to go back to living like you did in 2007.  Namely, you'd have to go find a job that provided health insurance.  Oh noes!  Please, anything except that!  I hated being alive in 2007 so much, those were dark dark days...
With medical issue and inability to get insurance without an employer, and needing a job that will deal with those medical issue, it is not always that simple.

ixtap

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2019, 12:02:33 PM »
We drive an older car and live with a roommate, but we own a boat and I quit my job a year ago and took on additional volunteer responsibilities. I don't think anyone but our family really spends much time thinking about where we stand, but people have flashes of curiosity when we talk about sailing off into the sunset in the next couple of years or realize that we live quite simply while DH works at well paying megacorp. The woman in charge of the money raising raffles at one of my volunteer jobs is more than happy to assume that we have lots of dough to throw in the pot, since we have a boat.

former player

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2019, 01:08:54 PM »
I do take precautions against being raped.

Of course!  I also take precautions against future healthcare costs.  But working forever isn't a good solution, just like never leaving your house isn't a good solution.  Living life requires taking some calculated risks.

I wasn't trying to be condescending, just trying to offer a reminder that safety is an expensive illusion.  It wasn't meant as a personal affront, please don't take it as such.


Going straight to "rape" as an example of something a woman (and it's almost always the example used when talking to a woman not a man) needs to be afraid of gets old.  Very, very old.  Next time, please try to find a less sexist example of something for us to be afraid of.

Thanks.

sol

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2019, 01:44:37 PM »
Going straight to "rape" as an example of something a woman (and it's almost always the example used when talking to a woman not a man) needs to be afraid of gets old.  Very, very old.  Next time, please try to find a less sexist example of something for us to be afraid of.

Thanks.

I didn't even know the poster I was responding to was female, and it's slightly sexist of you to assume that I was making it a sexist a comment.  Sometimes we each see what we want to see.  If anything was sexist about my post, it was my assumption that a male poster would feel the need to defend his daughters rather than letting them defend themselves.  I'm a father of daughters, though, and I have considered the possibility of needing more money in the future in order to defend me family. 

But all of this is besides the point.  You could change the first of those four examples to "roving bands of fascists" or something and the point would still stand.  We can never prepare for every possible negative future.  For some people, they will just never feel safe no matter how much money they have because there is always something else to worry about.  I was specifically responding to a post that made a series of wildly pessimistic assumptions about the next election, the future of the ACA if the election goes poorly, your own future health problems if the ACA is repealed, and the lack of a viable replacement if all of that first goes horribly horribly wrong at the same time.  It just sounded like such ridiculous series of "what ifs" as to be almost comically spot-on as an example of what MMM talked about in the post I quoted.  You can never really buy your safety, but you sure can spend a lot of money trying.

But sure, in the future I will avoid all uses of the word "rape" if it's such a trigger for people that it blinds them to the point under discussion.  I'm not trying to antagonize, only remind people that safety is an expensive illusion.  I didn't mean to distract from that idea by giving people an opportunity to be offended by misinterpreting my choice of examples.  Where's the outrage from people who are afraid of nuclear war and supervolcano-related mass extinction?  Why was sexual assault the worst thing on my list?

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2019, 01:55:01 PM »
I'm finding it a little hard to understand that MonkeyJenga has reached walrus stache status here with such a degree of anonymity but it would explain why your post in reply to hers missed the point.

And the problem with going to rape as an example is not that it is a "trigger", it's that it's sexist and reinforces stereotypes of female vulnerability.  A different issue altogether.  Nuclear war and supervolcanos are equal opportunity extinction events.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2019, 02:29:13 PM »
Quote
I was specifically responding to a post that made a series of wildly pessimistic assumptions about the next election, the future of the ACA if the election goes poorly, your own future health problems if the ACA is repealed, and the lack of a viable replacement if all of that first goes horribly horribly wrong at the same time.  It just sounded like such ridiculous series of "what ifs" as to be almost comically spot-on as an example of what MMM talked about in the post I quoted.  You can never really buy your safety, but you sure can spend a lot of money trying.

Whatever man. People thought I was being wildly pessimistic when I was afraid of Trump winning in the first place, or when I thought Russia wouldn't bring him down. This isn't a political or ACA thread, so I won't go into more detail, but my main point is that you responded way out of proportion to my post and talked down to me. All I said was that there is uncertainty around healthcare costs in the future, and that is hard to plan for. Why the hell that needed gang rape and nuclear bunker analogies is beyond me.

Also, mmm has a lot more safety margin than I do, and more than most people do. They retired with enough rental income to cover the family expenses, so they had a 0% withdrawal rate on investments, and they kept making money in other ways.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/17/its-all-about-the-safety-margin/

Quote
And indeed, it could be said that Mr. Money Mustache is actually a bit of an overcautious wimp when it comes to financial planning, not the reckless chronic optimist that many people accuse me of being.

sol

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2019, 02:40:40 PM »
I'm finding it a little hard to understand that MonkeyJenga has reached walrus stache status here with such a degree of anonymity

Oh I recognize the name, I just had no idea what gender that person is.  I'm genuinely bad with names too, but there are lots of accounts I recognize as regular contributors that don't have a gender in my mind.  My personal bias is apparently to always assume everyone is male like me unless they say otherwise, because I just don't think about it much.  You're all Pat to me. 

And I generally don't read journals, so some of the forum's most prolific posters are totally unrecognizable to me because they post almost exclusively in journals.

Just as a convenient example, now that you mention it former player I have no idea what gender you are, either.  I had assumed male, and your vocal criticisms of perceived sexism in this thread aren't exactly indicative one way or the other

Quote
And the problem with going to rape as an example is not that it is a "trigger", it's that it's sexist and reinforces stereotypes of female vulnerability.

Fair enough, I honestly hadn't considered how a female survivor of rape might take that example as a personal affront, because I was subconsciously writing for a male audience that would see the example of defending their family as just another potential risk to be considered.  I suppose I could have written about getting cancer but a cancer survivor seems less likely to get wound up about it.

Rape is a real thing that really exists.  So are genocide and water boarding.  Victims of rape are both male and female.  But it's become such a traumatic topic for so many people anymore that I will just avoid using the word all together unless absolutely necessary.  I recognize that some people are going to get hung up on the idea, even when only mentioned tangentially like it was in this case. 

But I'm resigned to my fate at this point.  If history is any guide, I'm about to get the same three or four posters calling me a sexist asshole all over again, no matter what I say.  I'm over it.

Sorry for derailing the thread.

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2019, 03:01:19 PM »

And the problem with going to rape as an example is not that it is a "trigger", it's that it's sexist and reinforces stereotypes of female vulnerability.

Fair enough, I honestly hadn't considered how a female survivor of rape might take that example as a personal affront, because I was subconsciously writing for a male audience that would see the example of defending their family as just another potential risk to be considered.  I suppose I could have written about getting cancer but a cancer survivor seems less likely to get wound up about it.

Rape is a real thing that really exists.  So are genocide and water boarding.  Victims of rape are both male and female.  But it's become such a traumatic topic for so many people anymore that I will just avoid using the word all together unless absolutely necessary.  I recognize that some people are going to get hung up on the idea, even when only mentioned tangentially like it was in this case. 

But I'm resigned to my fate at this point.  If history is any guide, I'm about to get the same three or four posters calling me a sexist asshole all over again, no matter what I say.  I'm over it.

Sorry for derailing the thread.
[/quote]

We could get you a shovel, if you like. Your reasoning just proves the point being made about what a crappy example it was.

sol

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2019, 03:06:40 PM »
We could get you a shovel, if you like. Your reasoning just proves the point being made about what a crappy example it was.

That was me agreeing with former player.  If admitting my mistake is digging myself a deeper hole, then I am well and truly lost.

Just Joe

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2019, 03:20:36 PM »
We were "poor" for a long time. Our clothes, our car, our lack of "look at us" spending. Part of the family seemed to feel that maybe someday we might get ahead. The others seemed to feel like we were one of them.

Then we spent some money. Newer (but used) car that still looks new. Bigger house. A few vacations to higher profile places. It all LOOKS like a big deal but we refuse to let it be a big deal.

We're no longer poor to the family. Funny b/c nothing changed. Our income is same, our savings is the same and still growing. And yes, it may have chilled relations slightly with a couple or three of them b/c we aren't teetering on the financial edge with them. I hope I have the wrong impression.

We'd love to share what we've learned over the past few years here with them but for some of them, old habits die hard.

There may be a cultural aspect to it too I think. A mild reverse snobbery. Whatever...

ixtap

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2019, 03:37:43 PM »
We could get you a shovel, if you like. Your reasoning just proves the point being made about what a crappy example it was.

That was me agreeing with former player.  If admitting my mistake is digging myself a deeper hole, then I am well and truly lost.

Actually, you contradicted them. They said it was about the sexism and you said you could see a survivor being wound up, but a cancer survivor would probably get less wound up. Oh, and it was always meant as sexist, because I assume that posters are men as the default and men should look after their women, even if both males and females are raped, so how dare anyone call me sexist.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2019, 05:08:44 PM »
I'm all for not talking about money in public, which means that no one other than your partner should know how much you earn.

It sounds like you are saying that *no one* should talk openly about their income except to their spouse.

Why??? That seems pretty extreme.

Other than business exceptions - e.g. sharing income info with colleagues in the same industry, and with recruiters - there is no reason to share income data. It's not necessary, and never leads to a good ending.

FIREstache

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2019, 05:12:39 PM »
Once someone has been out of the job market for a long time it can be hard to get a full time job with benefits.  Plus you may end up with a low wage. HI in this country is definitely something to be concerned about.

That's for sure.  I figured if I had to go back to work after retiring, I would earn half what I earn now, and still might  not get healthcare benefits.  Healthcare insurance and out of pocket costs would suck up a big chunk of what is currently planned for discretionary, and then there would be no guarantee that I won't be dropped when I need to use it.  The ACA already came as close as one vote to getting repealed, and it's been ruled unconstitutional by a federal judge.  So, there's definitely a very good reason for concern.  But there's an existing thread about that.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/in-case-aca-is-overturned-then-what/

And the big one

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-comes-after-the-aca/

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2019, 05:17:22 PM »
I'm all for not talking about money in public, which means that no one other than your partner should know how much you earn.

It sounds like you are saying that *no one* should talk openly about their income except to their spouse.

Why??? That seems pretty extreme.

Other than business exceptions - e.g. sharing income info with close colleagues in the same industry, and with recruiters - there is no reason to share income data. It's not necessary, and never leads to a good ending. It can lead to envy, unwanted scrutiny, all sorts of negative things.

I no longer try to hide my situation, but it's possible for people to know that you are "doing well" financially without them having a specific figure re your income. The former is normal, the latter provides a focal point for envy if any of your colleagues are not doing as well.

On a related note, I also disagree that the job title gives away the earnings level. A mid-level pen-pushing professional (e.g. lawyer/accountant) - say with 8 years' experience, like me - can earn, in my country, anywhere from $90,000 at the low end to $350,000+ at the high end. Median probably around $120,000 and mean probably $150,000. But it's a very wide range and no one would be able to pinpoint it. The variance is even greater for self-employed people.

maizefolk

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2019, 07:14:13 PM »
I'm guessing most people have a fixed view of my sex/gender from my username.

Despite this, as a non-woman and non-rape survivor, I still think escalating to rape examples in what is initially a rather minor difference of opinion on a topic that has nothing to do with sexual violence is uncalled for and inappropriate.

In fact, that is quite close to the specific example used to illustrate forum rule #6.

Quote
5/11/15 Edit:
Rule #6 added: "Use good taste." There's nothing wrong with using good, solid, hyperbole and exaggeration in a metaphor, but we expect our members to refrain from tasteless comparisons that are completely out of proportion.  As an example, it not appropriate to compare rape, domestic assault, or genocide to unfair business practices that result in being overcharged for a service.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2019, 03:49:36 AM »
Makes you wonder how many of your friends are actually stealthy-wealthy.


People talk about their finances, even when they don't get into specifics.  "We'd love a three bedroom home now that the kids are getting older, but can't afford it."  And they talk about purchases, "I just got a new XXXX handbag; isn't it pretty!"  "We are going on vacation and I had trouble finding a 4 star or better hotel with availability for our dates, but I just booked".  And you see signs of it--expensive clothing that you rarely see repeated, huge diamond wedding rings, "redoing" the furniture every few years, that major kitchen and bath remodel because they didn't like the color of the cabinets, etc.  It's pretty easy to ballpark what most people make, and it's pretty easy to see if they are Consumers, so I think it's actually pretty easy to guess who has a cushy retirement savings and who doesn't, if you are paying attention.

I don't think any of my friends would say the quotes, or anything like that. If they said it, I'd very quickly un-friend them. I think in most polite circles it's seen as really gauche to talk about money, especially if you are either complaining that you can't afford a consumer item, or gloating about being able to afford a consumer item. I also assume that anyone who gloats about a consumer item or posts it on Instagram etc is probably poor, or nouveau riche in the worst way.

Stuff like expensive clothing and huge diamond rings is a huge marker of a middle class person trying to look rich. Actual rich people don't give a shit.

Other than talking about money in a purely business sense (e.g. - profit margins), or good-faith comparing prices on a common product, or talking about it in a community specifically devoted to personal finance (like this), I think any mention of money is unlikely to be productive, and very likely to be seen as gauche (whether or not it is intended to be that way).

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #94 on: April 26, 2019, 04:42:01 AM »
Makes you wonder how many of your friends are actually stealthy-wealthy.


People talk about their finances, even when they don't get into specifics.  "We'd love a three bedroom home now that the kids are getting older, but can't afford it."  And they talk about purchases, "I just got a new XXXX handbag; isn't it pretty!"  "We are going on vacation and I had trouble finding a 4 star or better hotel with availability for our dates, but I just booked".  And you see signs of it--expensive clothing that you rarely see repeated, huge diamond wedding rings, "redoing" the furniture every few years, that major kitchen and bath remodel because they didn't like the color of the cabinets, etc.  It's pretty easy to ballpark what most people make, and it's pretty easy to see if they are Consumers, so I think it's actually pretty easy to guess who has a cushy retirement savings and who doesn't, if you are paying attention.

I don't think any of my friends would say the quotes, or anything like that. If they said it, I'd very quickly un-friend them. I think in most polite circles it's seen as really gauche to talk about money, especially if you are either complaining that you can't afford a consumer item, or gloating about being able to afford a consumer item. I also assume that anyone who gloats about a consumer item or posts it on Instagram etc is probably poor, or nouveau riche in the worst way.

Stuff like expensive clothing and huge diamond rings is a huge marker of a middle class person trying to look rich. Actual rich people don't give a shit.

Other than talking about money in a purely business sense (e.g. - profit margins), or good-faith comparing prices on a common product, or talking about it in a community specifically devoted to personal finance (like this), I think any mention of money is unlikely to be productive, and very likely to be seen as gauche (whether or not it is intended to be that way).

Ummm.....

I suspect this is highly cultural and depends on where you are and what type of people you are around.

Also, I know a lot of rich people and they ABSOLUTELY wear big diamonds, have designer clothes, purses, expensive watches, etc. The difference is that relative to their wealth, these things are minor and they don't make a big deal about them. They don't tend to flash labels as much, because the more expensive designer goods don't have obvious labels, except for LV monogram bags, which are still ubiquitous. Fuck, even I have one and I don't even carry a purse.

As for talking about money. Well, I was at an industry dinner last night with a ton of higher net worth professionals, and we pretty openly talked about personal finance matters, which were either unrelated or tangential to our professional discussions. Definitely not considered "gauche".

Sure, if someone was walking around complaining or bragging, it would be awkward, but it would be awkward about any subject.

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2019, 05:05:57 AM »
Pretty much all my friends and family have a rough idea about how much I take home from work, which is a quite resonable ammount to local standards. In Norway, if you really want to, you can even search the tax numbers of anyone on-line. For most "ordinary" people it will provide fairly accurate information about income and wealth, its distorted by housing is handles for wealth purposes in the tax system, but if you know where they live its fairly easy to correct for that.

I dont show off in any meaningful way, however. I drive a Tesla Model S, but those are very common in Norway and not more expenive over the lifetime than an ordinary car (say a VW passat or sth) due to various incentives for electric vehicles here and general high taxation of cars (electric are exempt from all taxes). Hose is a fairly standard detached family house in a good area - again nothing out of the ordinary.

If trying to save more than normal, not showing off quickly becomes a byproduct of that. And at my age (low 40s) I already own more than I need so hardly buy anything at all apart from food, holidays (not flashy) or the odd meal out + stuff kids need as they grow - lot of that 2nd hand also.

I live well and do what I want to and buy what I want when I want and need sth, but live way below my means. Most of the stuff I enjoy, like cycling, hiking, cross-country skiing in the winter and brewing my own beer is virtually free anyway.

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2019, 05:25:37 AM »
Also, I know a lot of rich people and they ABSOLUTELY wear big diamonds, have designer clothes, purses, expensive watches, etc. The difference is that relative to their wealth, these things are minor and they don't make a big deal about them. They don't tend to flash labels as much, because the more expensive designer goods don't have obvious labels, except for LV monogram bags, which are still ubiquitous. Fuck, even I have one and I don't even carry a purse.

Agree. The whole Millionaire-Next-Door-Rich-People-Dont-Flaunt-Their-Wealth line of thinking is false in my experience.

Some people just like buying expensive things, regardless of whether they have the money to afford it or not.

To conflate frugality with wealth is a reflection of your own ideals about how one should spend their money.

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2019, 06:22:26 AM »
Makes you wonder how many of your friends are actually stealthy-wealthy.


People talk about their finances, even when they don't get into specifics.  "We'd love a three bedroom home now that the kids are getting older, but can't afford it."  And they talk about purchases, "I just got a new XXXX handbag; isn't it pretty!"  "We are going on vacation and I had trouble finding a 4 star or better hotel with availability for our dates, but I just booked".  And you see signs of it--expensive clothing that you rarely see repeated, huge diamond wedding rings, "redoing" the furniture every few years, that major kitchen and bath remodel because they didn't like the color of the cabinets, etc.  It's pretty easy to ballpark what most people make, and it's pretty easy to see if they are Consumers, so I think it's actually pretty easy to guess who has a cushy retirement savings and who doesn't, if you are paying attention.

I don't think any of my friends would say the quotes, or anything like that. If they said it, I'd very quickly un-friend them. I think in most polite circles it's seen as really gauche to talk about money, especially if you are either complaining that you can't afford a consumer item, or gloating about being able to afford a consumer item. I also assume that anyone who gloats about a consumer item or posts it on Instagram etc is probably poor, or nouveau riche in the worst way.

Stuff like expensive clothing and huge diamond rings is a huge marker of a middle class person trying to look rich. Actual rich people don't give a shit.

Other than talking about money in a purely business sense (e.g. - profit margins), or good-faith comparing prices on a common product, or talking about it in a community specifically devoted to personal finance (like this), I think any mention of money is unlikely to be productive, and very likely to be seen as gauche (whether or not it is intended to be that way).

Ummm.....

I suspect this is highly cultural and depends on where you are and what type of people you are around.

Also, I know a lot of rich people and they ABSOLUTELY wear big diamonds, have designer clothes, purses, expensive watches, etc. The difference is that relative to their wealth, these things are minor and they don't make a big deal about them. They don't tend to flash labels as much, because the more expensive designer goods don't have obvious labels, except for LV monogram bags, which are still ubiquitous. Fuck, even I have one and I don't even carry a purse.

As for talking about money. Well, I was at an industry dinner last night with a ton of higher net worth professionals, and we pretty openly talked about personal finance matters, which were either unrelated or tangential to our professional discussions. Definitely not considered "gauche".

Sure, if someone was walking around complaining or bragging, it would be awkward, but it would be awkward about any subject.

Fair enough. Depends on culture and context I guess. In my field of work it is considered a little gauche to even market yourself or to have a business card - so perhaps my social sphere is more self-conscious about it. To be clear, it's not that we can't acknowledge it or have nice things - more that most expensive things are subtle (an IWC is more subtle than, say, a Tag, for example) and usually if money has to be bought up it's done with a nod and a wink and not really spoken about other than jokingly.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 06:24:40 AM by Bloop Bloop »

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2019, 09:04:13 AM »
I have… accidentally outed myself?  I mean, I’m not “wealthy” in the sense of I am still 10+ years out from FIRE, but y’all know what I mean. 

DW and I have been budgeting for several years to take a trip to Hawaii.  We used the new Southwest opening to get a good deal on tickets for us and our 2 kids (not the $49 ones unfortunately), and will be staying with friends who live there.  Our local friend group is utterly amazed that we can go.  One literally asked us if it was our inheritance.  So now they all think we are loaded when in reality we’re not even close, not even by non-mustachian standards. 

Our local friend group is generally speaking much like us in terms of family life- single income from the engineer, wives are SAHM’s with multiple children.  None of us live fancy- everyone has used cars, reasonable (or even less than reasonable) houses, although I’m not sure how much they spend on food/dining/etc.  Based on comments DW has passed on to me from playdates and such, I know that while they aren’t quite living paycheck to paycheck, none of them are able to save enough for free 401k matches, etc.  So less than 5%.
 
I mean, I’m a junior engineer.  I make just shy of 80k.  Thanks to a career change on my part, they all have a few more years of experience than me.  They’ve got to be making at least similar to me.  I just don’t understand where their money goes.  I cannot stress enough that they do not live fancy or showy lives. 

I’m trying to get DW to explain to them that tickets to Hawaii for a family of four are equivalent to a family of four eating out once a week for two years (assuming $10 a person plus tip). 

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Re: Wealthy people: Are you "out"? Why or why not?
« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2019, 09:24:31 AM »
I can think of a SAHM parent situation where they should be very efficient and frugal but the SAHM spends a fair amount of money entertaining themselves and the kids during the summer and school holidays. Typical days include drive-thru food, shopping, kids' activities... Whatever makes them happy.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!