Author Topic: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'  (Read 44515 times)

nereo

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #100 on: October 04, 2016, 12:27:16 PM »
It's hard to amass wealth when you miss the boom times of the 90s because you were too young, then start working after 9/11. Though if you were able to ride out the last recession, you could be just fine. I wasn't.

I was born in '81.  Missed the boom times of the 90s, and started working after 9/11.  No problems with wealth here.  That said, I was just starting to invest during 2007 - 2008, so benefited from the drop and rebound.

With all this chatter about how long it takes to become a millionaire and whether having a six-figure income is "hard" or not we're all missing the point of the OP. 
Current NW is roughly $35k for people in their mid-thirties (article quotes 27k).  That's horribly low... the equivelent of investing just $200/month for 10 years.  If you did nothing more than max out your IRA each year starting at age 22 you'll be 3-4x wealthier than the average of your peers.

We don't have a wealth problem - we have a spending problem.

Guses

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #101 on: October 04, 2016, 12:31:37 PM »
you have to put on your thinking cap and move outside of the box of traditional salaried income jobs to get to the point of 300k or 1MM in income. - which doesnt have to be from one stream of income either.

I am not saying it can't be done. I am saying that the majority will never achieve it. In fact, 97% of households in USA will never achieve 300,000$ per year income.

You can't think cap your way out of cold hard facts.


Jack

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #102 on: October 04, 2016, 12:33:12 PM »
almost everyone I am friends with

Well that's the key now, isn't it? I'm going to guess that your friends are not a representative sample of all people in their 30s, including the ones who don't have college educations to begin with. You, boarder42 and others keep talking about your (exceptional) experience and then trying to extrapolate it to the entire population, and it simply doesn't work that way!

GuitarStv

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #103 on: October 04, 2016, 12:33:53 PM »
you have to put on your thinking cap and move outside of the box of traditional salaried income jobs to get to the point of 300k or 1MM in income. - which doesnt have to be from one stream of income either.

I am not saying it can't be done. I am saying that the majority will never achieve it. In fact, 97% of households in USA will never achieve 300,000$ per year income.

You can't think cap your way out of cold hard facts.

I expect to retire without ever achieving a six figure salary.  It shouldn't prevent me from retiring comfortably at 40.

Guses

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #104 on: October 04, 2016, 12:35:22 PM »
almost everyone I am friends with

Well that's the key now, isn't it? I'm going to guess that your friends are not a representative sample of all people in their 30s, including the ones who don't have college educations to begin with. You, boarder42 and others keep talking about your (exceptional) experience and then trying to extrapolate it to the entire population, and it simply doesn't work that way!

Survivors' bias.

boarder42

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #105 on: October 04, 2016, 12:39:18 PM »
you have to put on your thinking cap and move outside of the box of traditional salaried income jobs to get to the point of 300k or 1MM in income. - which doesnt have to be from one stream of income either.

I am not saying it can't be done. I am saying that the majority will never achieve it. In fact, 97% of households in USA will never achieve 300,000$ per year income.

You can't think cap your way out of cold hard facts.

97% of households spend far too much money and dont save ... if that was their GOAL they could infact acheive it.

MishMash

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #106 on: October 04, 2016, 12:42:22 PM »
almost everyone I am friends with

Well that's the key now, isn't it? I'm going to guess that your friends are not a representative sample of all people in their 30s, including the ones who don't have college educations to begin with. You, boarder42 and others keep talking about your (exceptional) experience and then trying to extrapolate it to the entire population, and it simply doesn't work that way!

Well I would say that it's a pretty fair mix of gender, race, immigrant/non status, and majors.  Not many without a college degree because lets face it, college degrees, or trade schools degrees are pretty much a requirement for jobs nowadays.  That said, no one in my family outside of myself has a degree, and they are just fine.  Common theme is that those of us that are all well paid are largely STEM, or small business owners. 

The point people are trying to make is that our experiences aren't really all that extraordinary, especially for these boards.  You seem to think it's a one in a million chance.  It's not, people do it every day.  Do I think that high school drop out Joe could achieve the same thing, no, but again, a very large part of success, and failure, is due to personal choices.

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #107 on: October 04, 2016, 12:47:04 PM »
97% of households spend far too much money and dont save ... if that was their GOAL they could infact acheive it.

Maybe, but what the hell does that have to do with achieving a 300K income?  Or having $1M by age 32?   You can be a great saver, but still not reach these benchmarks.   

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #108 on: October 04, 2016, 12:49:20 PM »
It's about college major choices, mobility and willingness to move around for income mainly.  At 34 currently almost everyone I am friends with earns 6 figures except the teachers and liberal arts majors.

Have you talked to the average American?   Avg American is an idiot!  How the hell is he/she supposed to get through a major like math, finance, engineering, etc?  That's the most common path to getting to $100K by age 30.   This is not even mentioning other factors. 

I think some of you guys live in a bubble.  What appears to be easy to me and you is not so easy for most other people.         
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 01:02:41 PM by Luck12 »

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #109 on: October 04, 2016, 01:00:51 PM »
I work with and manage alot of millennials (as most people do). I see several problems leading to their lower net worth. I think marketing has done it's job with younger folks, and they buy into more things than previous generations. Younger folks in general, aren't buying houses like we did, they are missing out on the forced savings. Peer pressure is greater than ever, to keep up with their social circle. They tend to job hop more than older generations. It seems if they aren't promoted in six months, they hop to another job, starting at the bottom again; they tend not to have patience to stick with a company, and work their way up. This isn't a bash, it's just things I've noticed.

Data doesn't support that assuming you meant "buy more things".  Their savings rates are better than GenX's and late Bloomers' were at similar ages. 

Jack

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #110 on: October 04, 2016, 01:23:02 PM »
Well I would say that it's a pretty fair mix of gender, race, immigrant/non status, and majors.  Not many without a college degree because lets face it, college degrees, or trade schools degrees are pretty much a requirement for jobs nowadays.  That said, no one in my family outside of myself has a degree, and they are just fine.  Common theme is that those of us that are all well paid are largely STEM, or small business owners. 

The point people are trying to make is that our experiences aren't really all that extraordinary, especially for these boards.  You seem to think it's a one in a million chance.

There are 204 million working-age people in the US. 2.5 million of them are engineers. (I'd like to find a statistic for the total number of STEM jobs, but could only find ones about job openings, which isn't the same thing. Let's arbitrarily multiply by 10 and assume 25 million STEM jobs total.) There are 28 million small businesses (and I will assume for the purpose of this calculation that each as one unique owner). Assuming that there is no overlap between holders of STEM jobs and business owners, at best it's a (25 + 28) / 204 = 26% chance. (That sounds like a gross overestimate to me, but let's go with it.)

So no, I don't think it's a "one in a million chance." For the purpose of this discussion, I think it's roughly a 26 out of 100 chance.

But that still leaves the other 74%, who aren't STEM workers and aren't business owners. Instead, many of them are working shitty, low-paying customer service jobs at places like Wal-Mart and McDonalds -- or worse, they're unemployed or even incarcerated. Maybe they picked a stupid major in college. Maybe they never went to college at all. Maybe they dropped out of high school, let alone college!

The point is, any statement about people in their 30s as a whole has to include them too!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2016, 01:54:47 PM by Jack »

Guses

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #111 on: October 04, 2016, 01:49:59 PM »
you have to put on your thinking cap and move outside of the box of traditional salaried income jobs to get to the point of 300k or 1MM in income. - which doesnt have to be from one stream of income either.

I am not saying it can't be done. I am saying that the majority will never achieve it. In fact, 97% of households in USA will never achieve 300,000$ per year income.

You can't think cap your way out of cold hard facts.

97% of households spend far too much money and dont save ... if that was their GOAL they could infact acheive it.

If 97% of households spend too much money, would it not be in their best interest to try to get better paying jobs so that they can... spend even more (or, wishful thinking, save more)?

Newsflash; everybody wants more money. If you want to be in the 3%, you have to be better than the 97%. By definition, not everyone can do it. QED.


MishMash

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #112 on: October 04, 2016, 03:10:29 PM »
It's about college major choices, mobility and willingness to move around for income mainly.  At 34 currently almost everyone I am friends with earns 6 figures except the teachers and liberal arts majors.

Have you talked to the average American?   Avg American is an idiot!  How the hell is he/she supposed to get through a major like math, finance, engineering, etc?  That's the most common path to getting to $100K by age 30.   This is not even mentioning other factors. 

I think some of you guys live in a bubble.  What appears to be easy to me and you is not so easy for most other people.         

And again personal choices.  Yes the average American is an idiot, but you know whose fault that is, that individuals (barring of course those with disabilities and probably below poverty level individuals).  With the Internet nowadays, and free classes on everything from how to fix your car to your house to free lessons in programming it is their personal choice to remain an idiot.  Libraries are free, and provide free internet, and most schools have both of those things.  Learn something that someone else wants and teach yourself ways to make it better.

You don't like working in McDonalds, you don't like being a cashier in Walmart...do something about it instead of whine that it's not fair or not average.  The US by and large, has a consumeristic spending problem, NOT a lack of opportunity problem especially for those in the middle class.

Jack

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #113 on: October 04, 2016, 03:28:02 PM »
And again personal choices.  Yes the average American is an idiot, but you know whose fault that is, that individuals (barring of course those with disabilities and probably below poverty level individuals).

So you think the quality of a person's parents is his choice?!

You don't like working in McDonalds, you don't like being a cashier in Walmart...do something about it instead of whine that it's not fair or not average.

How about this thought experiment: assume every worker at McDonalds, Wal-mart, and every other low-paying job decides to "do something about it" and get an engineering degree. What will happen?

The answer is, people with engineering degrees would end up working at fucking McDonalds and Wal-Mart!

MishMash

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #114 on: October 04, 2016, 04:00:33 PM »
And again personal choices.  Yes the average American is an idiot, but you know whose fault that is, that individuals (barring of course those with disabilities and probably below poverty level individuals).

So you think the quality of a person's parents is his choice?!

You don't like working in McDonalds, you don't like being a cashier in Walmart...do something about it instead of whine that it's not fair or not average.

How about this thought experiment: assume every worker at McDonalds, Wal-mart, and every other low-paying job decides to "do something about it" and get an engineering degree. What will happen?

The answer is, people with engineering degrees would end up working at fucking McDonalds and Wal-Mart!

A person can overcome their parents, mine were uneducated, on assistance several times in their life, and my mother to this day, I love her, but she still blames all her problems on someone other then herself.  She's still just getting by, and her dreams "never came true"because of X, Y or Z.  She doesn't see it's because she's only held a full time job for 3 total years of her life (she's 70), or that they had more kids then they could probably afford (which yes I was one of them so there's that), or that they insisted on "new" cars every 5 years or as soon as something mechanical went wrong or that they had no issue pulling 401k loans to go on vacation.

The people with the engineering degrees might go work at McDonalds, but, by then without ANY workers, McDonalds/Walmart would probably be paying more then the engineering jobs due to lack of employees.  But, I'd be more willing to bet that the above average engineer on this board would see the writing on the wall and transition careers, perhaps to earning a large salary tutoring those McDonalds workers to become engineers.  All online, from the comfort of their home, in a comfy early retirement.

The fact is, it's an early retirement board, the people on here are by and large NOT your 'average' American.  Some of us once were, but we've all decided, consciously, to buck the consumeristic trend, and make cautious personal choices with the solid goal of bettering our lives and our financial positions.  ER is not for everyone, nor is the ability to become a 30 year old millionaire (extreme poverty,disabilities etc), but it's within the grasp of A LOT more people then there currently taking advantage of the opportunities in their lives.

Jack

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #115 on: October 04, 2016, 04:13:02 PM »
The fact is, it's an early retirement board, the people on here are by and large NOT your 'average' American.

The board may not be about "average" people, but the article being discussed in this topic was!

The point is, this myopic Lake Wobegone perspective that disregards structural problems in society just because in theory any individual might be capable of overcoming them (despite the fact that it is not possible for more than a small fraction of the group to do so) is... unhelpful at best.

MishMash

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #116 on: October 04, 2016, 04:20:48 PM »
The fact is, it's an early retirement board, the people on here are by and large NOT your 'average' American.

The board may not be about "average" people, but the article being discussed in this topic was!

The point is, this myopic Lake Wobegone perspective that disregards structural problems in society just because in theory any individual might be capable of overcoming them (despite the fact that it is not possible for more than a small fraction of the group to do so) is... unhelpful at best.

According to your own math, it's not "small fraction" that overcome those supposed structural problems, it's 26% or over a quarter of the population.  That alone would indicate that it's more of a "don't wanna make the effort/spend too much" problem vs inherent structural problems that we can blame on the government.  Imagine if another 24% of people actually decided to make an effort to get a better education or technical training, increase income, budget, save, and invest.

MrRealEstate

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #117 on: October 05, 2016, 01:42:34 AM »


You don't like working in McDonalds, you don't like being a cashier in Walmart...do something about it instead of whine that it's not fair or not average.

How about this thought experiment: assume every worker at McDonalds, Wal-mart, and every other low-paying job decides to "do something about it" and get an engineering degree. What will happen?

The answer is, people with engineering degrees would end up working at fucking McDonalds and Wal-Mart!

These people may begin working at McDonalds, but do you think they'd have the same job as the people making minimum wage? Or would McDonalds decide to leverage these surplus engineers into a much more lucrative competitive advantage? 

if a civilization has a glut of educated workers would the economy begin accelerating at a faster pace since we then have more people to address more problems, or simply inefficiencies?

Schaefer Light

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #118 on: October 05, 2016, 08:27:24 AM »
It's hard to amass wealth when you miss the boom times of the 90s because you were too young, then start working after 9/11. Though if you were able to ride out the last recession, you could be just fine. I wasn't.

I was born in '81.  Missed the boom times of the 90s, and started working after 9/11.  No problems with wealth here.  That said, I was just starting to invest during 2007 - 2008, so benefited from the drop and rebound.

With all this chatter about how long it takes to become a millionaire and whether having a six-figure income is "hard" or not we're all missing the point of the OP. 
Current NW is roughly $35k for people in their mid-thirties (article quotes 27k).  That's horribly low... the equivelent of investing just $200/month for 10 years.  If you did nothing more than max out your IRA each year starting at age 22 you'll be 3-4x wealthier than the average of your peers.

We don't have a wealth problem - we have a spending problem.
Most people would rather buy a new car or go on a big vacation than fully fund their retirement accounts, though.

Papa Mustache

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #119 on: October 05, 2016, 08:29:42 AM »
Have you talked to the average American?   Avg American is an idiot!  How the hell is he/she supposed to get through a major like math, finance, engineering, etc?  That's the most common path to getting to $100K by age 30.   This is not even mentioning other factors. 

I think some of you guys live in a bubble.  What appears to be easy to me and you is not so easy for most other people.         

I've got to admit that the recent political cycle has given DW and I the opportunity to hear the unsolicited opinions of many different kinds of people. You may have a point...

Each presidential election leads to an exposure to even more outspoken and uninformed people than the last one. I can only imagine what the 2020 election will be like... ;)

Jack

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #120 on: October 05, 2016, 08:38:56 AM »
You don't like working in McDonalds, you don't like being a cashier in Walmart...do something about it instead of whine that it's not fair or not average.

How about this thought experiment: assume every worker at McDonalds, Wal-mart, and every other low-paying job decides to "do something about it" and get an engineering degree. What will happen?

The answer is, people with engineering degrees would end up working at fucking McDonalds and Wal-Mart!

These people may begin working at McDonalds, but do you think they'd have the same job as the people making minimum wage? Or would McDonalds decide to leverage these surplus engineers into a much more lucrative competitive advantage? 

if a civilization has a glut of educated workers would the economy begin accelerating at a faster pace since we then have more people to address more problems, or simply inefficiencies?

The economy needs workers to fill the jobs that exist now. There aren't enough engineering jobs for everyone to be an engineer. Maybe if everybody had the skills the number of engineering jobs would increase -- slowly over time -- to leverage them, but otherwise the vast majority would be still be stuck underemployed in manual labor / customer service roles.

Besides, at this point we're talking about some sort of irrelevant futurist utopia anyway -- "what if everybody became engineers" simply isn't going to happen because most people fundamentally aren't capable of it, no matter how motivated they are!



And that brings me back to the original topic of this thread: why are the current cohort of people in their 30s less wealthy now than the previous cohorts were? The recession is a big factor, but I also think it's because people (on average) have always been too damn stupid to manage their finances properly, and the difference now is that their employers and/or the government have decided to stop being responsible for doing it for them. In addition, the rise of the confusopoly, ever-more-effective advertising, and proliferation of choices has made it harder and harder for idiots (i.e., normal people) to figure out how to avoid wasting their money.

nereo

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #121 on: October 05, 2016, 08:43:52 AM »
With all this chatter about how long it takes to become a millionaire and whether having a six-figure income is "hard" or not we're all missing the point of the OP. 
Current NW is roughly $35k for people in their mid-thirties (article quotes 27k).  That's horribly low... the equivelent of investing just $200/month for 10 years.  If you did nothing more than max out your IRA each year starting at age 22 you'll be 3-4x wealthier than the average of your peers.

We don't have a wealth problem - we have a spending problem.
Most people would rather buy a new car or go on a big vacation than fully fund their retirement accounts, though.
Um... yeah.  That's literally my point. This downward trend in Net Worth of people in their 30s is the direct result of them taking big vacations or buying new cars instead of saving and investing. The supposed "struggles" of the middle class are directly tied to our expectations that we should have two new cars, a big vacation each year and the pleasure of eating a nice restaurants a few times every month.
We earn about the same as we did a decade ago, but we are spending more. It's not rocket-science, it's the hedonic treadmill.

boarder42

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #122 on: October 05, 2016, 08:44:48 AM »
You don't like working in McDonalds, you don't like being a cashier in Walmart...do something about it instead of whine that it's not fair or not average.

How about this thought experiment: assume every worker at McDonalds, Wal-mart, and every other low-paying job decides to "do something about it" and get an engineering degree. What will happen?

The answer is, people with engineering degrees would end up working at fucking McDonalds and Wal-Mart!

These people may begin working at McDonalds, but do you think they'd have the same job as the people making minimum wage? Or would McDonalds decide to leverage these surplus engineers into a much more lucrative competitive advantage? 

if a civilization has a glut of educated workers would the economy begin accelerating at a faster pace since we then have more people to address more problems, or simply inefficiencies?

The economy needs workers to fill the jobs that exist now. There aren't enough engineering jobs for everyone to be an engineer. Maybe if everybody had the skills the number of engineering jobs would increase -- slowly over time -- to leverage them, but otherwise the vast majority would be still be stuck underemployed in manual labor / customer service roles.

Besides, at this point we're talking about some sort of irrelevant futurist utopia anyway -- "what if everybody became engineers" simply isn't going to happen because most people fundamentally aren't capable of it, no matter how motivated they are!



And that brings me back to the original topic of this thread: why are the current cohort of people in their 30s less wealthy now than the previous cohorts were? The recession is a big factor, but I also think it's because people (on average) have always been too damn stupid to manage their finances properly, and the difference now is that their employers and/or the government have decided to stop being responsible for doing it for them. In addition, the rise of the confusopoly, ever-more-effective advertising, and proliferation of choices has made it harder and harder for idiots (i.e., normal people) to figure out how to avoid wasting their money.

most people are capable of being electricians or plumbers or welders or any other trade labor.  10k hours. you may need better brain capacity to be an engineer but there are shortages of trade labor world wide.

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #123 on: October 05, 2016, 08:48:52 AM »
And again personal choices.  Yes the average American is an idiot, but you know whose fault that is, that individuals (barring of course those with disabilities and probably below poverty level individuals).  With the Internet nowadays, and free classes on everything from how to fix your car to your house to free lessons in programming it is their personal choice to remain an idiot.  Libraries are free, and provide free internet, and most schools have both of those things.  Learn something that someone else wants and teach yourself ways to make it better.

You are under the delusion that with hard work anyone can figure anything out.   Programming?  I see you are an engineer:  Of course, for you it'll seem that it's not too difficult to figure that out on your own.   For most people, it's not easy or even achievable.  I've read that you either can figure programming out or you can't.    Also, knowing how to fix your car or house is admirable, but it is not going to get you to 100K by age 30 unless you are such an expert to open your own business fixing that stuff. 

I really think many people want to believe in the nonsense that with enough bootstrapping and hard work anyone can be rich so they can pat themselves on the back and also so they don't have to support programs to assist those less fortunate. 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 08:50:34 AM by Luck12 »

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #124 on: October 05, 2016, 09:05:12 AM »
And again personal choices.  Yes the average American is an idiot, but you know whose fault that is, that individuals (barring of course those with disabilities and probably below poverty level individuals).  With the Internet nowadays, and free classes on everything from how to fix your car to your house to free lessons in programming it is their personal choice to remain an idiot.  Libraries are free, and provide free internet, and most schools have both of those things.  Learn something that someone else wants and teach yourself ways to make it better.

You are under the delusion that with hard work anyone can figure anything out.   Programming?  I see you are an engineer:  Of course, for you it'll seem that it's not too difficult to figure that out on your own.   For most people, it's not easy or even achievable.  I've read that you either can figure programming out or you can't.    Also, knowing how to fix your car or house is admirable, but it is not going to get you to 100K by age 30 unless you are such an expert to open your own business fixing that stuff. 

I really think many people want to believe in the nonsense that with enough bootstrapping and hard work anyone can be rich so they can pat themselves on the back and also so they don't have to support programs to assist those less fortunate.

I don't think that's it at all.  I think it stems from when people bitch and whine about topics such as this they ask the question "well what have you done to better you situation other than bitch and whine"?

Knowledge has never been more free or available than right now.  If you want to learn to do something it only takes willingness and dedication.

boarder42

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #125 on: October 05, 2016, 09:14:29 AM »
lets see 90% of americans aged 25-29 have a high school diploma.  here are the requirements to be an electrician apprentice:

 Qualifications:

Age requirement is a minimum of 18
Must have obtained a high school diploma or GED
Must have a way to and from work and class
Social Security Card and Valid Drivers License
Passed a background check and drug test
Upon acceptance, applicant must supply his own tools.**  Note: Take a look at the electrical tools that I carry. My Electrician Tool List! **
Cost and Tuition:

Note: Tuition is deducted from your pay each week.

$25 application fee
$50 registration fee upon acceptance
1st year 1,000 hours of on the job training $0.37 per hour for each hour worked
1st year Next 1,000 hours $0.41 cents per hour for each hour worked
2nd year $0.49 cents per hour for each hour worked
3rd year $0.56 cents per hour for each hour worked
4th year $0.64 cents per hour for each hour worked

so you're telling me that of the 90% of people with HS diplomas they cant come up with:
1. a bicycle
2. probably 500-1k for tools
3. pass a drug/background test - (self inflicted not my problem)
4. $75 application fee

mean hourly wage for a journeyman is 25.44 per hour in 2010 so 28.10 today. 

so if you assume the mean by 30 you'd have to work 3300 hours a year to make 100k.  assuming all hours worked over 2088 annually are time and a half with no double time.  not ideal but also not impossible. 

the apprenticeship program is paid. so you're making money while you learn. 

we need more of them..

can all 90% of people with a GED do this and society still work well... no but alot of people claiming ITS TOO HARD to make that much money, just need to try harder.

boarder42

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #126 on: October 05, 2016, 09:20:29 AM »
Luck12 what do you do for information purposes since you're so opposed to being able to bring in 100k per year, i'm more on the side 100k per year for a couple isnt hard but for whatever reason you keep taking this to individual.

Cathy

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #127 on: October 05, 2016, 09:25:39 AM »
If two people apply for a job, only one person can get it. If one person leaves a position, it creates a vacancy to be filled.

The total number of positions/jobs can increase or decrease but, at any given moment it is a set number.

Even if this is true (which it's not), how is it relevant to anything? Jack also points out the obvious truism above that not everybody can earn $300,000 per year, and I think this is just intended to be another way of rephrasing that. I've never disputed that fact, but it's totally irrelevant to everything I've posted in this thread. It's about as insightful as saying that the economy would be destroyed if everybody became frugal, because, even if true, it's just not going to happen. Most people will never put in the effort to earn $300,000 per year -- or even anything close to that -- so we don't need to worry about what would happen if everybody did attempt to.


First example: Cathy is born as a Native American in 1766. How does Cathy become a millionaire?

All of my comments in this thread, and everywhere else on the forum, are intended to apply to the circumstances of the present-day United States, unless otherwise indicated. I may not have explicitly stated this until now, but there were some pretty obvious hints that this was the case, such as speaking in the present tense when saying it is open to you to earn $300,000 if you want.

As for your attempts to personalise the thread, I'm going to have to decline to participate. There's really no winning with people who want to personalise topics like this. Even if somebody had to overcome every imaginable obstacle to get where they are, and is able to outline a moving story of overcoming adversity through hard work, you would just write it off as exceptional and learn nothing from it. Other people might learn from it, but you, Guses, certainly would not. Some people just don't want to hear about how they can improve their station in life.

Jack

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #128 on: October 05, 2016, 09:28:12 AM »
This downward trend in Net Worth of people in their 30s is the direct result of them taking big vacations or buying new cars instead of saving and investing. The supposed "struggles" of the middle class are directly tied to our expectations that we should have two new cars, a big vacation each year and the pleasure of eating a nice restaurants a few times every month.

Do 30-year-olds take more big vacations and buy more new cars now than previous generations did? Cite a study proving it, please, because I don't believe it's actually true!

Anecdotally, my parents (albeit baby-boomers, not gen-x) tell me stories about how, when they were my age, they vacationed in places like Cancun and such, and used to own cars like Ford Mustangs and Plymouth 'Cudas (bought new). In contrast, the closest I've come to a vacation is camping in the mountains, tagging along with my parents because they rent condos bigger than they need when they go to the beach, or visiting the in-laws. I literally don't think I've ever paid for a hotel room in my life! And I've certainly never bought myself anything close to a new muscle car.

I don't think that's it at all.  I think it stems from when people bitch and whine about topics such as this they ask the question "well what have you done to better you situation other than bitch and whine"?

can all 90% of people with a GED do this and society still work well... no but alot of people claiming ITS TOO HARD to make that much money, just need to try harder.

Luck12 what do you do for information purposes since you're so opposed to being able to bring in 100k per year, i'm more on the side 100k per year for a couple isnt hard but for whatever reason you keep taking this to individual.

Nobody in this thread -- neither Luck12 or anybody else -- has "bitched or whined" that they themselves can't make more money by working harder. Our point -- which is so obvious and true that even boarder42 just acknowledged it himself -- has only ever been that there exist, and always will exist, a large contingent of other people who genuinely can't: "can all 90% of people with a GED do this and society still work well... no."

Jack

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #129 on: October 05, 2016, 09:33:58 AM »
Even if this is true (which it's not), how is it relevant to anything? Jack also points out the obvious truism above that not everybody can earn $300,000 per year, and I think this is just intended to be another way of rephrasing that. I've never disputed that fact, but it's totally irrelevant to everything I've posted in this thread. It's about as insightful as saying that the economy would be destroyed if everybody became frugal, because, even if true, it's just not going to happen. Most people will never put in the effort to earn $300,000 per year -- or even anything close to that -- so we don't need to worry about what would happen if everybody did attempt to.

How is the obvious truism that hard work leads to better outcomes for an individual relevant to the thread?! This thread isn't about individual behavior; it's about a structural difference in circumstances for an entire generational cohort! Human nature doesn't change -- one generation isn't going to be inherently "better" than another -- so something other than individual behavior must be the cause.

Cathy

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #130 on: October 05, 2016, 09:38:49 AM »
This thread isn't about individual behavior; it's about a structural difference in circumstances for an entire generational cohort!

Although I am sure there have been many generational differences over the years, it has not been demonstrated in this thread or elsewhere that these differences explain the alleged wealth decrease referenced in the news article linked to in the original post. In my first post in this thread, I took the position that there was no need to explain that alleged decrease because the two figures involved were the same to within rounding error. That's still my position on the original topic.

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #131 on: October 05, 2016, 09:38:49 AM »
Luck12 what do you do for information purposes since you're so opposed to being able to bring in 100k per year, i'm more on the side 100k per year for a couple isnt hard but for whatever reason you keep taking this to individual.

Oh so you want to go there eh?  I make well over 100K and hit 100K by 30.  I agree 100K for a couple isn't that difficult, but it's my opinion the original 100K by age 30 and 1M by early 30's comments were meant to be applied on an individual basis.  Just my opinion, wasn't clear from that person's statement. 

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #132 on: October 05, 2016, 09:42:04 AM »
Knowledge has never been more free or available than right now.  If you want to learn to do something it only takes willingness and dedication.

So basically you and others who think like you are just going to double down on the "anything is possible with hard work" BS?   Yeah, I want to learn to play tennis like Federer, surely with enough "willingness and dedication" I can do that.   It's like you people don't understand that not everybody has the same potential. 

MishMash

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #133 on: October 05, 2016, 09:48:49 AM »
And again personal choices.  Yes the average American is an idiot, but you know whose fault that is, that individuals (barring of course those with disabilities and probably below poverty level individuals).  With the Internet nowadays, and free classes on everything from how to fix your car to your house to free lessons in programming it is their personal choice to remain an idiot.  Libraries are free, and provide free internet, and most schools have both of those things.  Learn something that someone else wants and teach yourself ways to make it better.

You are under the delusion that with hard work anyone can figure anything out.   Programming?  I see you are an engineer:  Of course, for you it'll seem that it's not too difficult to figure that out on your own.   For most people, it's not easy or even achievable.  I've read that you either can figure programming out or you can't.    Also, knowing how to fix your car or house is admirable, but it is not going to get you to 100K by age 30 unless you are such an expert to open your own business fixing that stuff. 

I really think many people want to believe in the nonsense that with enough bootstrapping and hard work anyone can be rich so they can pat themselves on the back and also so they don't have to support programs to assist those less fortunate.

Luck, I chose my major with one goal in mind.  What could pay back my student loans?  I had never even OWNED a computer and my entire knowledge of how to work one was basic word processing and pushing the power button in the school lab when I decided on engineering.  You seem to think the bulk of the population is just plain stupid.  Frankly I think they are more lazy then stupid.  I learned my field by working a crap ton of hours, having no college life, and seeking out every opportunity to learn.  There were others like me at the same time. 

I don't think the population is just plain IQ level stupid/idiots, I think people are lazy and don't want to put forth the actual effort it takes to learn or put forth the effort to make the hard choices to delay gratification to save.  There is no structural difference for our generation, jobs are like a river, they change course over time, if a person doesn't change and adapt to changes in technology, policy etc, they risk becoming the oxbow lake that gets left behind as the river continues to flow.

nereo

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #134 on: October 05, 2016, 09:58:46 AM »
This downward trend in Net Worth of people in their 30s is the direct result of them taking big vacations or buying new cars instead of saving and investing. The supposed "struggles" of the middle class are directly tied to our expectations that we should have two new cars, a big vacation each year and the pleasure of eating a nice restaurants a few times every month.

Do 30-year-olds take more big vacations and buy more new cars now than previous generations did? Cite a study proving it, please, because I don't believe it's actually true!


Well, there's a lot of evidence showing this is exactly the case.  I will use links vs embedding graphs or else this post will get very unweildly. 
For starters, household disposable income has been steadily increasing, both as a percentage and in absolute (real-adjusted) dollars. Using DPI strips out any differences with income taxes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/4582126-3x2-940x627.jpg
http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/cjp-rbi-communities-blogs/wp-content/uploads/mt/icisweb/blogs/chemicals-and-the-economy/2012/02/06/US%20incomes%20Feb12.png

So; we have more disposable income but (as per the topic of this thread) we have LESS in net worth.
My post used spending on cars, vacations and housing as examples of how we are spending more money now than before.  Certainly there are other sources, but since these make up the majority of the average person's budget, let's focus on those.

Are we spending more on cars?  Yes!  One metric is to look at total car loans.  It's not perfect because it doesn't include cars that are paid off, but it shows a disturbing trend.  Since 2003 total US car loans have gone from $630B to $1.1T.  That's a 78% increase in just over a decade.
This, curiously, despite an upward trend in how long cars are staying on the road each year, going from 9 years to 11.4 years in the same time frame.

Are we spending more on homes? 
First, in real-adjusted terms the cost per square foot of new-construction homes has remained stable over hte last 40 years, hovering between $100 and 120/sqft (in 2013 terms).
However, we keep buying bigger and bigger homes.  Median house size has increased from 2100 to 2500 sqft in the same time period, even while the number of people in the household has steadily declined.
It's also worth noting that we have more mortgage debt now than we did 10 years ago, whether you measure it as a function of total GDP or relative to disposable income (the latter looks much closer, but remember we have more disposable income than before).

So are we spending more on vacations?  Here I will admit the data does not seem to support my accusation; US citizens seem to be taking fewer and spending slightly less on both domestic and foreign vacations than they were a decade ago.  Maybe because we're already spending so 78% more on our cars and 15% more on our homes...

Cathy

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #135 on: October 05, 2016, 10:01:20 AM »
Luck, I [made my choices] with one goal in mind.  What could [earn lots of money]?

Generalising your point a bit, I think you've hit on a major chasm that separates the complainers from the others.

I've been reading this forum for years, and one thing I've observed is that most people take into account a wide variety of extra-financial factors when making major life decisions. They evaluate axes like "will I enjoy it?", "how will it affect my social life?", "will it be a big change from what I'm used to?", and "what will my 'qualify of life' be like?" (to paraphrase Jack). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with evaluating those parameters, but you aren't going to get the same outcome as somebody who considers the singular objective of "What will allow me to retire by 30 as a millionaire?". I see very few people on this forum who truly have had that singular objective for their entire life and have governed their choices accordingly, or at all. Again, that's fine, but it's not surprising if somebody isn't able to retire by 30 when it was never the focal point of all of their decisions. That's the "self-discipline" that I referred to in my first post in this thread.


I agree 100K for a couple isn't that difficult, but it's my opinion the original 100K by age 30 and 1M by early 30's comments were meant to be applied on an individual basis.  Just my opinion, wasn't clear from that person's statement. 

I never specifically mentioned "100k by age 30". On the contrary, I've repeatedly pointed out that there is nothing mystical about an income of $100,000 per year, which is why I typically pick other numbers when I need an arbitrary salary to use for some purpose (to avoid propagating the air of mystery around the specific figure of $100,000).

As I've pointed out in too many past posts to list, although it's certainly possible to retire by 30 or earlier as a single person, it's far easier with a partner or partners.

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #136 on: October 05, 2016, 10:05:17 AM »
Nereo, you never provided any evidence that those in their 30's now have lower savings rates than those in their 40's 50's did at similar ages.  All of your "evidence" is for all ages combined.   I'm the only one that has done that in this thread and clearly there's no evidence of this, at least in the U.S. 

nereo

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #137 on: October 05, 2016, 10:09:24 AM »
Nereo, you never provided any evidence that those in their 30's now have lower savings rates than those in their 40's 50's did at similar ages.  All of your "evidence" is for all ages combined.   I'm the only one that has done that in this thread and clearly there's no evidence of this, at least in the U.S.
I showed the disposable income has increased.  Ipso facto, savings has decreased if net-worth has decreased. 
Just because evidence hasn't been presented or isn't available isn't proof that it doesn't exist.  OR (in dorky scientific terms)- failure to reject the null hypothesis isn't confirmation.

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #138 on: October 05, 2016, 10:13:20 AM »
I see very few people on this forum who truly have had that singular objective for their entire life and have governed their choices accordingly, or at all. Again, that's fine, but it's not surprising if somebody isn't able to retire by 30 when it was never the focal point of all of their decisions. That's the "self-discipline" that I referred to in my first post in this thread.

I did pick my major with a large focus on how it would affect retiring by 40 (I picked 40 just to be conservative because I graduated when the P/E ratio was very high).  Still, there's no way I would've been able to get through my major with a decent GPA and enter my career without a very high level of math aptitude.   Not to brag, but I certainly didn't have to work very hard, I've always been great at math.  Combine that with great parenting and magnet schooling and academic/career life was a cakewalk.   

Similarly, I've never had to be financially disciplined.  I remember from an early age I've always been a cheap bastard.   





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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #139 on: October 05, 2016, 10:13:34 AM »
Knowledge has never been more free or available than right now.  If you want to learn to do something it only takes willingness and dedication.

So basically you and others who think like you are just going to double down on the "anything is possible with hard work" BS?   Yeah, I want to learn to play tennis like Federer, surely with enough "willingness and dedication" I can do that.   It's like you people don't understand that not everybody has the same potential.

Well that's a little extreme.  I never said you would be Roger Federer, that's ridiculous.  If you practice, studied the sport and got in shape you could be better than the average tennis player in your local area.  Just like I practice and train in weightlifting. I'm probably stronger that 80-90% of people in those lifts, but there's no way in hell I'm ever going to the Olympics. 

Change this discussion to X career or skill.  Being better than average is what sets you apart.

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #140 on: October 05, 2016, 10:14:55 AM »
I showed the disposable income has increased.  Ipso facto, savings has decreased if net-worth has decreased. 
Just because evidence hasn't been presented or isn't available isn't proof that it doesn't exist.  OR (in dorky scientific terms)- failure to reject the null hypothesis isn't confirmation.

No comment on the link I posted on savings rates over the last 25 years+ by age group several days ago? 

StarBright

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #141 on: October 05, 2016, 10:17:32 AM »
This downward trend in Net Worth of people in their 30s is the direct result of them taking big vacations or buying new cars instead of saving and investing. The supposed "struggles" of the middle class are directly tied to our expectations that we should have two new cars, a big vacation each year and the pleasure of eating a nice restaurants a few times every month.

Do 30-year-olds take more big vacations and buy more new cars now than previous generations did? Cite a study proving it, please, because I don't believe it's actually true!

Anecdotally, my parents (albeit baby-boomers, not gen-x) tell me stories about how, when they were my age, they vacationed in places like Cancun and such, and used to own cars like Ford Mustangs and Plymouth 'Cudas (bought new). In contrast, the closest I've come to a vacation is camping in the mountains, tagging along with my parents because they rent condos bigger than they need when they go to the beach, or visiting the in-laws. I literally don't think I've ever paid for a hotel room in my life! And I've certainly never bought myself anything close to a new muscle car.


Jack, my experience lines up with yours (I know very few millennials taking vacations - mostly because they have little to no vacation time) but I found some interesting numbers:

http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/infographic-how-your-generation-influences-way-you-travel-165070

The big issue with this data to me is that it doesn't ask how many trips people take a year, just the average value of the trip. For instance my little family takes an actual "vacation" - (ie not visiting our parents) every few years. Because we taken them infrequently we definitely spend a little more. Our parents (all boomers) take 5-8 trips a year. They definitely spend less than us on an individual vacation but they take an average of 15 trips to our 1.

But apparently millennials do take more trips to Europe. Anyway- just adding data points.

Luck12

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #142 on: October 05, 2016, 10:18:05 AM »
Well that's a little extreme.  I never said you would be Roger Federer, that's ridiculous.  If you practice, studied the sport and got in shape you could be better than the average tennis player in your local area.  Just like I practice and train in weightlifting. I'm probably stronger that 80-90% of people in those lifts, but there's no way in hell I'm ever going to the Olympics. 

Being better than average in math and science isn't going to cut it though (mostly) to become an actuary, engineer, doctor, etc and that's going to be even more the case going forward. 

Cathy

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #143 on: October 05, 2016, 10:28:28 AM »
... I certainly didn't have to work very hard, I've always been great at math.  Combine that with great parenting and magnet schooling and academic/career life was a cakewalk. ...


If your point is that different people will experience different levels of difficulty in reaching success even if they make all the optimal choices, I agree. I don't think I've suggested otherwise. You may have had an easy time, but not everybody does. I don't think this affects my points in this thread. Everything I said took this into account already.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 08:30:33 PM by Cathy »

MishMash

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #144 on: October 05, 2016, 10:41:23 AM »
I see very few people on this forum who truly have had that singular objective for their entire life and have governed their choices accordingly, or at all. Again, that's fine, but it's not surprising if somebody isn't able to retire by 30 when it was never the focal point of all of their decisions. That's the "self-discipline" that I referred to in my first post in this thread.

I did pick my major with a large focus on how it would affect retiring by 40 (I picked 40 just to be conservative because I graduated when the P/E ratio was very high).  Still, there's no way I would've been able to get through my major with a decent GPA and enter my career without a very high level of math aptitude.   Not to brag, but I certainly didn't have to work very hard, I've always been great at math.  Combine that with great parenting and magnet schooling and academic/career life was a cakewalk.   

Similarly, I've never had to be financially disciplined.  I remember from an early age I've always been a cheap bastard.   


Sooooo what you are saying is that you have ZERO experience with the actual ability to bootstrap yourself up in the world, yet claim that it's not possible or next to impossible for someone to do just that? 

I am the freaking poster child for bootstrapping, crappy family life, poor financial role models, crushing student debt, experience in getting a job at the height of the recession etc.  I am standing here as a very well off early 30's woman with a six figure salary telling you that it IS possible if you don't suffer from a disibility or extreme bone crushing poverty.  Yet apparently I am the "exception". 

No luck, on this planet your overly pleasant and perfect upbringing is the exception.  People bootstrap themselves up every. damn. day.  There are no inherent problems in society that prevent success there is only an unwillingness to make difficult decisions to get there.  People are more concerned with looking cool, or being in on the latest trend, or having the perfect FaceBook life then they are with creating a solid financial future for their family.  There are two entire threads on this board of people spending gobs of cash on stupid crap, and they go on for paaaages.  That is the norm in this society, we aren't at a lower net worth due to structural problems, we are there because people can't stop buying fucking ugly ass leggings and 300 dollar a bottle skin care and McMansions and 50k cars.

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #145 on: October 05, 2016, 11:38:20 AM »
Sooooo what you are saying is that you have ZERO experience with the actual ability to bootstrap yourself up in the world, yet claim that it's not possible or next to impossible for someone to do just that? 

I am the freaking poster child for bootstrapping, crappy family life, poor financial role models, crushing student debt, experience in getting a job at the height of the recession etc.  I am standing here as a very well off early 30's woman with a six figure salary telling you that it IS possible if you don't suffer from a disibility or extreme bone crushing poverty.  Yet apparently I am the "exception". 

No luck, on this planet your overly pleasant and perfect upbringing is the exception.  People bootstrap themselves up every. damn. day.  There are no inherent problems in society that prevent success there is only an unwillingness to make difficult decisions to get there.  People are more concerned with looking cool, or being in on the latest trend, or having the perfect FaceBook life then they are with creating a solid financial future for their family.  There are two entire threads on this board of people spending gobs of cash on stupid crap, and they go on for paaaages.  That is the norm in this society, we aren't at a lower net worth due to structural problems, we are there because people can't stop buying fucking ugly ass leggings and 300 dollar a bottle skin care and McMansions and 50k cars.

Repeating the same fallacious argument does not and will not stop it from being fallacious. First, Luck12's admission that he himself has not had to pull himself up by his boostraps is not equivalent to a claim that nobody can do it, so stop pretending that it is. Second, your experience of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is not equivalent to proof that everyone is capable of it, so stop claiming that it is.

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #146 on: October 05, 2016, 11:56:11 AM »

No comment on the link I posted on savings rates over the last 25 years+ by age group several days ago?

I followed your link but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make that would be different from what I've already said (unfortunately it lumps everyone 0-35 together).  Personal savings rate is poor, yet DPI has shown modest gains. Our collective problem is that we are spending all our money and saving almost nothing. As I indicated earlier, collectively (all age groups) we are spending more on cars and homes, even while comparable costs on those items remain about the same.

What do you see in the data?

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #147 on: October 05, 2016, 12:01:49 PM »
What do you see in the data?

Already mentioned it a few other times. 

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #148 on: October 05, 2016, 12:08:15 PM »
Sooooo what you are saying is that you have ZERO experience with the actual ability to bootstrap yourself up in the world, yet claim that it's not possible or next to impossible for someone to do just that? 

I am the freaking poster child for bootstrapping, crappy family life, poor financial role models, crushing student debt, experience in getting a job at the height of the recession etc.  I am standing here as a very well off early 30's woman with a six figure salary telling you that it IS possible if you don't suffer from a disibility or extreme bone crushing poverty.  Yet apparently I am the "exception". 

No luck, on this planet your overly pleasant and perfect upbringing is the exception.  People bootstrap themselves up every. damn. day. 

Let me ask you:  What did you score on the SAT/ACT or on standardized tests in general?  I'm guessing minimum top 20%.   Do you really think you'd be in the same financial position if you had a below average IQ, particular with respect to math and science?   Additionally, perhaps you even got lucky in obtaining your first job.  Not trying to discount your success, it's just that people have no idea how much fortune can play a role in their own success.  I know I've had some luck.       

Hard work and determination is helpful to achieving success, but it's definitely nowhere near enough, that's all I and others are arguing. 

As someone mentioned, it takes hard work, talent, and luck to be successful.  Obviously, only one of the 3 is within one's control.   Do the math.   
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 12:09:54 PM by Luck12 »

nereo

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Re: Wealth of people in their 30s has 'halved in a decade'
« Reply #149 on: October 05, 2016, 12:10:11 PM »
What do you see in the data?

Already mentioned it a few other times.
I'm not understanding the disconnect here.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!