Vampire electric loads - costing money doing nothing

[xyzzy]

Not sure if this has come up before, but many electrical appliances use small amounts of electricity while dormant (called vampire loads because they just suck electricity out of the system while they are "dead"). Found one guy's blog who computed some of his costs over a year at http://sandeen.net/wordpress/energy/watts-on/. And he is assuming a 10 cent/kwh cost - mine is about twice that (bay area). It might also help to look at it not over just one year, but over the time of ownership of the house, like 10 or 15 years. So he measured the doorbell @ $2.20/year so for me thats about $4.40 for 1 year and over 15 years thats $66 bucks. And to boot, I think I have a door knocker as well. Seems like a waste and I might just take that out and look at other things wasting such energy.

[AZDude]

My first home I bought, the doorbell never worked. This was never an issue. I could never justify the cost of hundreds of dollars to fix the wiring for something that was never used.

[Fastfwd]

It's a brain trap to take small values and scale them to many years to make them appear larger. If that doorbell if .01% of your budget today it's probably not a huge problem.

I got myself an efergy monitor and have found that electrical heating and the pool's water pump are the things where I can save the most money. I also switched a few bulbs to LED and will eventually switch them all as they burn out.

Up to you to decide if it's worth the effort and if the numbers are correct. I tried turning off everything I could in my house and there was still some power being drawn according to the efergy monitor; outlets were still on so everything with phantom power was still drawing and also everything related to internet/router so the efergy could work. I was probably down to a few cents per day so really not worth the trouble vs other things.

It's the same with that legendary coffee habit example. What use is it to save money on coffee and then buy an expensive car or live in a a big house that requires more maintenance and cost more in utilities? Go after the big fish first.

[TheAnonOne]

The thing with these types of expense items, is that to get any meaningful amount, you need to collectively add them all together, over a decade, with 7% compounding (lost opportunity).

Then you need to see what it would cost, or mean to your life to remove them. I see he has a "Radon Fan", surely you don't want to turn that off to save 1k over 10 years...

Though, a door bell? Never had one, so it seems like a useless expense. Knock if you must.

[bobechs]

Not quite right to say that electric load does absolutely nothing.  It is converted to heat with 100% efficiency.

In the heating season that displaces some quantity of intentionally generated home heat.  In the cooling season it offsets some purchased cooling.

Absolutely trivial in scale for both purposes?  Sure.  But that's the single palm tree island you've decided to colonize in this cartoon, isn't it?

[acroy]

MMM had a great one about this recently,
Power monitor and an amp-clamp (for non-plug-in devices) are excellent investments!

[Kitsune]

I'd recommend trying to get the most savings out of the least effort, for this type of thing.

For example: doorbell at 2$/year? Fine. NOT gonna spend an hour working on that.

Plugging the TV, Apple TV, DVD player, and XBox (... my husband owned all of them before we moved in together, is my defense..) into a power bar that is kept off unless we're actually watching something (... maybe once ever 3 weeks?), and then powered off again? Low-effort, low-impact, saving us approximately 30$/year for about 3 minutes of effort and a power bar we already owned.

Frankly, what pulls the most power in our house is our heating (main heating is wood, but the back-up is electric, and we live in Quebec, so... winter for 8 months of the year, basically), our stove (we cook everything at home, it adds up), and our dryer (my husband does the laundry, and I am NOT gonna take on a household chore I don't have to do, so I'm not gonna micro-manage how he does it). I kind of feel like minor, 2$ expenses that would take more than a few minutes to fix (or more than 5$ of equipment) are not really worth it, and that I can direct that time more efficiently and productively elsewhere. (Note: efficiently and productively, NOT watching TV). YMMV.

[Bracken_Joy]

It's the same with that legendary coffee habit example. What use is it to save money on coffee and then buy an expensive car or live in a a big house that requires more maintenance and cost more in utilities? Go after the big fish first.

[Prairie Stash]

Not quite right to say that electric load does absolutely nothing.  It is converted to heat with 100% efficiency.

In the heating season that displaces some quantity of intentionally generated home heat.  In the cooling season it offsets some purchased cooling.

Absolutely trivial in scale for both purposes?  Sure.  But that's the single palm tree island you've decided to colonize in this cartoon, isn't it?

Heat generated from electricity costs 4 times the amount from my natural gas furnace, which is why I don't use electric heat. In the cooling season it increases the load on an AC, never a good thing. 

If the OP wants to discuss a trivial savings that's great. I read it so that I could implement a trivial savings, why did you read it?

[RobFIRE]

In "Sustainable Energy – without the hot air" (http://withouthotair.com/download.html) the author specifically says that focusing on very small gains such as switching off 1 Watt appliances (his example is USB chargers) misses the point. I agree. That's not to say somebody who makes such small changes is wrong (it most likely encourages consideration of larger changes) but it's not the bigger picture.

[EnjoyIt]

If living on a very tight budget then small changes can make a difference. This scenario can be true for some. If still working, I would rather work a little overtime or sell something in eBay to cover the small cost if it made a difference.

On the other hand, some people want the most efficiency or prefer to use up as little natural resources as possible. Cutting waste therefor becomes a hobby of its own and makes complete sense.

[xyzzy]

It's a brain trap to take small values and scale them to many years to make them appear larger. If that doorbell if .01% of your budget today it's probably not a huge problem. .. It's the same with that legendary coffee habit example. What use is it to save money on coffee and then buy an expensive car or live in a a big house that requires more maintenance and cost more in utilities? Go after the big fish first.

Please dude, like about 30% of the people on this site, I'm a software engineer and of course its a total rookie idea to randomly pick one thing to optimize without first running gprof on your system. I've already slayed the big fish and am now going after the small fish.

And looking at the compounding of small things over time isn't a bad strategy. The same goes for expense loads on funds or rates of return - if you can eke out a small delta, compounded over time, you will do better than if you haven't. Im always surprised by people not wanting to deal with this idea. If there is a 100 dollar bill sitting on the ground, will you just walk by it and say to yourself "well, I have 1M in the bank, so its not worth it to reach down and pick it up". No, no one does that, no matter how rich they are. Easy money is easy money.

[xyzzy]

I'd recommend trying to get the most savings out of the least effort, for this type of thing.  For example: doorbell at 2$/year? Fine. NOT gonna spend an hour working on that.

I can't argue with that logic, but for me, reaching up into the closet and unscrewing the wire nuts that attach the transformer wires to the main is a 1 minute effort. If yours is hardwired, then I can see its more work. YMMV. And the bigger point isn't just the doorbell, but to look at all these vampire loads and see what can be done about each, including just getting rid of the appliance all together.

[Prairie Stash]

I'd recommend trying to get the most savings out of the least effort, for this type of thing.  For example: doorbell at 2$/year? Fine. NOT gonna spend an hour working on that.

I can't argue with that logic, but for me, reaching up into the closet and unscrewing the wire nuts that attach the transformer wires to the main is a 1 minute effort. If yours is hardwired, then I can see its more work. YMMV. And the bigger point isn't just the doorbell, but to look at all these vampire loads and see what can be done about each, including just getting rid of the appliance all together.

Its a losing battle, some people don't want to do anything. Some people consider changing out incandescent light bulbs to be too much work. I can't convince my in-laws to run rabbit ears for the evening news, it might take 2 hours to run the cables. Similar problem, minor savings/month (they have cable, could reduce a bit) and all the effort is up front. Some people don't have the patience for long term returns on their efforts.

Your original point came across well, doorbells are a fill in for all vampire loads. Optimization is a goal unto itself.

[seattlecyclone]

Plugging the TV, Apple TV, DVD player, and XBox (... my husband owned all of them before we moved in together, is my defense..) into a power bar that is kept off unless we're actually watching something (... maybe once ever 3 weeks?), and then powered off again? Low-effort, low-impact, saving us approximately 30$/year for about 3 minutes of effort and a power bar we already owned.

How much power do these devices draw when off, and how much does electricity cost in your area? $30/year for entertainment devices that are "turned off" seems very high to me.

If you have a device that pulls an average "vampire load" of 1W, that's 24 Wh per day, or 8,760 Wh (8.76 kWh) per year.

My electricity costs about 10¢/kWh, so a device that pulls a "vampire load" of 1W would cost a mere 87¢ per year. By that measure, a $30/year bill would require a "vampire load" of at least 34 W. I've plugged most of the devices in my house into a Kill-A-Watt, and none of them draw more than 1-2 W when not in active use. Your devices and electric bills may vary, but something about your $30/year figure doesn't seem quite right.

[Bajadoc]

Too much time on your hands. Find a second job.

[Prairie Stash]

Plugging the TV, Apple TV, DVD player, and XBox (... my husband owned all of them before we moved in together, is my defense..) into a power bar that is kept off unless we're actually watching something (... maybe once ever 3 weeks?), and then powered off again? Low-effort, low-impact, saving us approximately 30$/year for about 3 minutes of effort and a power bar we already owned.

How much power do these devices draw when off, and how much does electricity cost in your area? $30/year for entertainment devices that are "turned off" seems very high to me.

If you have a device that pulls an average "vampire load" of 1W, that's 24 Wh per day, or 8,760 Wh (8.76 kWh) per year.

My electricity costs about 10¢/kWh, so a device that pulls a "vampire load" of 1W would cost a mere 87¢ per year. By that measure, a $30/year bill would require a "vampire load" of at least 34 W. I've plugged most of the devices in my house into a Kill-A-Watt, and none of them draw more than 1-2 W when not in active use. Your devices and electric bills may vary, but something about your $30/year figure doesn't seem quite right.

Did you read the part about the xbox? Xbox one is rated for 15.7 watts in standby ($13.65 with your cost of 0.87/watt/year), in my area that's $19.11/year if it doesn't get used. Great illustration of how people are unaware of the costs of vampire loads, in this case you judged without looking at the numbers. I use to stream Netflix through the xbox, then I realized that other systems will pay for themselves in power savings alone; apple box will pay for itself in less than 4 years, from electricity savings. Using an Xbox for Netflix is like having incandescent bulbs, it works but you pay a lot.

Apple TV 3rd generation uses .8 watts on standby, insignificant, however 1st generation uses 14 W. If its first generation than the $30 is correct. Its interesting that if someone switches from first to 3rd generation they can pay it off through power savings alone in 4-5 years. Its the same as going from incandescent to LED bulbs. Even switching generations, not just systems, is advisable.

https://www.thurrott.com/xbox/xbox-one/2879/microsoft-promises-to-improve-xbox-one-power-consumption

[Kitsune]

Plugging the TV, Apple TV, DVD player, and XBox (... my husband owned all of them before we moved in together, is my defense..) into a power bar that is kept off unless we're actually watching something (... maybe once ever 3 weeks?), and then powered off again? Low-effort, low-impact, saving us approximately 30$/year for about 3 minutes of effort and a power bar we already owned.

How much power do these devices draw when off, and how much does electricity cost in your area? $30/year for entertainment devices that are "turned off" seems very high to me.

If you have a device that pulls an average "vampire load" of 1W, that's 24 Wh per day, or 8,760 Wh (8.76 kWh) per year.

My electricity costs about 10¢/kWh, so a device that pulls a "vampire load" of 1W would cost a mere 87¢ per year. By that measure, a $30/year bill would require a "vampire load" of at least 34 W. I've plugged most of the devices in my house into a Kill-A-Watt, and none of them draw more than 1-2 W when not in active use. Your devices and electric bills may vary, but something about your $30/year figure doesn't seem quite right.

Did you read the part about the xbox? Xbox one is rated for 15.7 watts in standby ($13.65 with your cost of 0.87/watt/year), in my area that's $19.11/year if it doesn't get used. Great illustration of how people are unaware of the costs of vampire loads, in this case you judged without looking at the numbers. I use to stream Netflix through the xbox, then I realized that other systems will pay for themselves in power savings alone; apple box will pay for itself in less than 4 years, from electricity savings. Using an Xbox for Netflix is like having incandescent bulbs, it works but you pay a lot.

Apple TV 3rd generation uses .8 watts on standby, insignificant, however 1st generation uses 14 W. If its first generation than the $30 is correct. Its interesting that if someone switches from first to 3rd generation they can pay it off through power savings alone in 4-5 years. Its the same as going from incandescent to LED bulbs. Even switching generations, not just systems, is advisable.

https://www.thurrott.com/xbox/xbox-one/2879/microsoft-promises-to-improve-xbox-one-power-consumption

Also, the person in my house who watches TV (my husband...) has the charming habit of only turning off one device and letting it all sit there as long as the screen is black and it looks 'off'. Which means that he'll turn off the xbox but leave the TV on, or turn off the TV but leave the DVD player on, etc... but if it's all on one switch, it all gets turned off. :) Sometimes, it's partially about the devices, but mostly about enabling positive behavior.

[use2betrix]

You have to pick and choose which things are really worth your time. A lot depends on your time, and income. If someone makes 200k a year and works a ton of hours and only spends 50k, they might find a lot less value forming new habits and spending time researching how to save $40/yr.

If someone works part time and makes 35k a year and spends 30k, they might find more value in spending their free time learning how they can squeeze each penny.

Some of this comes down to how beneficial it actually is to "reuse contact solution."

[Guses]

You have to pick and choose which things are really worth your time. A lot depends on your time, and income. If someone makes 200k a year and works a ton of hours and only spends 50k, they might find a lot less value forming new habits and spending time researching how to save $40/yr.

If someone works part time and makes 35k a year and spends 30k, they might find more value in spending their free time learning how they can squeeze each penny.

Some of this comes down to how beneficial it actually is to "reuse contact solution."

So, someone that makes 1M$ a year, they just leave their car running because it is inconvenient to turn it off?

Sorry, I disagree here. I does not matter how much money you make, being wasteful is being wasteful.

If changing a wasteful behavior costs you almost no time and happens to save you money too, it is a Win-Win situation, regardless of income level.

[Prairie Stash]

You have to pick and choose which things are really worth your time. A lot depends on your time, and income. If someone makes 200k a year and works a ton of hours and only spends 50k, they might find a lot less value forming new habits and spending time researching how to save $40/yr.

If someone works part time and makes 35k a year and spends 30k, they might find more value in spending their free time learning how they can squeeze each penny.

Some of this comes down to how beneficial it actually is to "reuse contact solution."

If someone makes $200K and reads this thread then they just learned how to save $40. If they then choose to not implement savings, after doing all the learning, then what kind of person are they? If you know how to change something (which the OP just explained how) and choose not to then that's your issue, not a hypothetical rich vs. poor scenario. My goal of sharing information is to inform and educate, if you're too rich to save money then why are you reading this thread?

Its even worse if you make $200K and respond to this thread telling the world how its not worth it to you or how wrong I am. In the time you spent responding you could have installed a power bar.

[Gunny]

I tried the whole "plug everything into a power strip then tun off the power strip thing" and I just did not see. Huge difference.  My savings come from limiting dryer use, keeping heat at 65 and cool at 77, and running the water heater only one hour a day.  This results in measurable savings in money per month for me and savings in energy consumption for the World.  I also restrict the water we use.  We seldom use more water than the monthly minimum we are charged by the water company. 

[Chris22]

Isn't the point of a DVR to leave on so that when I'm not around it can activate itself and record stuff I've set it to?  Plugging it into a power strip and turning it off completely kinda defeats the point of having it in the first place.

[Kitsune]

Isn't the point of a DVR to leave on so that when I'm not around it can activate itself and record stuff I've set it to?  Plugging it into a power strip and turning it off completely kinda defeats the point of having it in the first place.

... That's if you're talking about a DVR. I'm talking about an old-school DVD player. The type that doesn't record anything.

But, seriously... Netflix? Downloading? Streaming? Why would you bother recording anything? Serious question. (Bias statement: I live in the country, get no TV channels, and refuse to pay for cable. I've watched 13 episodes of TV and 2 movies in the past 22 months. So... I genuinely don't get the appeal.)

[Prairie Stash]

Isn't the point of a DVR to leave on so that when I'm not around it can activate itself and record stuff I've set it to?  Plugging it into a power strip and turning it off completely kinda defeats the point of having it in the first place.

... That's if you're talking about a DVR. I'm talking about an old-school DVD player. The type that doesn't record anything.

But, seriously... Netflix? Downloading? Streaming? Why would you bother recording anything? Serious question. (Bias statement: I live in the country, get no TV channels, and refuse to pay for cable. I've watched 13 episodes of TV and 2 movies in the past 22 months. So... I genuinely don't get the appeal.)

It was a silly comment. You shouldn't need the internet to figure out if a DVR needs constant power. You should also be able to tell if something can be turned off without consequence.

I agree with you Kitsune, I couldn't make sense of it either. Off-topic, for most of continental North America its possible to get TV channels, Rabbit ears and free satellite dishes still work and are completely legal. PBS has a satellite, AMC-21, specifically for people without cable or who like free shows such as PBS-Kids channel.

[Kitsune]

Isn't the point of a DVR to leave on so that when I'm not around it can activate itself and record stuff I've set it to?  Plugging it into a power strip and turning it off completely kinda defeats the point of having it in the first place.

... That's if you're talking about a DVR. I'm talking about an old-school DVD player. The type that doesn't record anything.

But, seriously... Netflix? Downloading? Streaming? Why would you bother recording anything? Serious question. (Bias statement: I live in the country, get no TV channels, and refuse to pay for cable. I've watched 13 episodes of TV and 2 movies in the past 22 months. So... I genuinely don't get the appeal.)

It was a silly comment. You shouldn't need the internet to figure out if a DVR needs constant power. You should also be able to tell if something can be turned off without consequence.

I agree with you Kitsune, I couldn't make sense of it either. Off-topic, for most of continental North America its possible to get TV channels, Rabbit ears and free satellite dishes still work and are completely legal. PBS has a satellite, AMC-21, specifically for people without cable or who like free shows such as PBS-Kids channel.

No joke: the most TV we've watched in the past two weeks has been youtube videos of cows. My toddler likes cows, and, despite the neighbor being really nice, we are NOT spending all day in his cow barn. So... god bless random farmers who put vidoes of their cows on youtube, I guess? :)

[Chris22]

Isn't the point of a DVR to leave on so that when I'm not around it can activate itself and record stuff I've set it to?  Plugging it into a power strip and turning it off completely kinda defeats the point of having it in the first place.

... That's if you're talking about a DVR. I'm talking about an old-school DVD player. The type that doesn't record anything.

But, seriously... Netflix? Downloading? Streaming? Why would you bother recording anything? Serious question. (Bias statement: I live in the country, get no TV channels, and refuse to pay for cable. I've watched 13 episodes of TV and 2 movies in the past 22 months. So... I genuinely don't get the appeal.)

It was a silly comment. You shouldn't need the internet to figure out if a DVR needs constant power. You should also be able to tell if something can be turned off without consequence.

I agree with you Kitsune, I couldn't make sense of it either. Off-topic, for most of continental North America its possible to get TV channels, Rabbit ears and free satellite dishes still work and are completely legal. PBS has a satellite, AMC-21, specifically for people without cable or who like free shows such as PBS-Kids channel.

Meh, sorry, I thought I saw someone post DVRs.  Those are the most commonly blamed "zombie" devices. 

And yeah, I'm evil...I have cable.  I like a number of the cable channels, mostly Velocity (car shows) and HGTV.  Sue me.  I don't watch a ton of TV, but when I do it's in the winter or at night after we put my daughter to bed.  I stream some stuff (halfway through House of Cards on Netflix) but find it's a lot easier to find content on cable. 

[Fastfwd]

Meh, sorry, I thought I saw someone post DVRs.  Those are the most commonly blamed "zombie" devices. 

Makes sense. DVRs are basically computers doing a specific tasks of recording video/audio to hard drives and playing it back. I don't have one anymore but back when I did even when "turned off" it would still be on and just turn off the video output.

[nancyjnelson]

One needs to be judicious about how you "save" money.  A friend of mine has a rental house.  This autumn his tenant went through the house and unplugged items that were costing her money doing nothing.  Since we live in Wisconsin, she thought it was wasteful to leave the sump pump plugged in over the winter.  This December we had three days of torrential rain.  My friend was called by his tenant upset that there were two feet of water in her basement.

She didn't even apologize.