Used Lexus vs Used Toyota

[GU]

I've noticed that used Lexuses seem to be a better deal than used Toyotas. The same relationship seems to hold for Acuras and Hondas. I'm guessing this is due to the typical buyer of such cars. People buy Toyotas to drive them into the ground. Moreover, they have a great reputation for reliability and the typical Toyota driver would certainly consider buying a used car. The typical Lexus buyer, on the other hand, only wants to buy new cars, and wants a new car every few years.

So it seems you're left with a much larger supply of used Lexuses with 40,000 - 80,000 miles, relative to Toyotas (who buys a Toyota to drive it for 40,000 miles?). This leads to a much larger discount for the Lexus (relative to sticker price) than for the Toyota. And Lexus is actually the most reliable car brand in the world based on my research, though Toyota is probably 2nd place. For example, it seems that if you want a Toyota Camry with 50,000 miles, you might actually be better off getting a Lexus ES with the same mileage.

Anyone else notice this? Agree? Disagree?

p.s., please don't waste thread space with comments like "ride your bike" or "buy a smart car." There are enough people on this forum who need/want a real car, and we're already familiar with the MMM ethos.

[Clean Shaven]

I think you're absolutely right. Lots of luxury cars buyers only want new, or CPO.  A 4-5 year old used Lexus can be a very sweet deal. Owners who bought them new tend to take good care of their expensive cars.

Also, some of this depends on what you consider a better deal - if it means % off new price, then yes, without a doubt.  OTOH, a higher discount off a Lexus ES may still be more dollars than a lower discount off a Camry.  If it's at all close, however, I'd pick the ES or any Lexus equivalent over its Toyota counterpart. They're just much nicer finished. Longer warranty too.

The CT seems to fly under the radar as a much nicer alternative to a Prius. IDK how the pricing compares though.

[big_slacker]

Around here lexus (lexi?) are almost always 2 year leased and you can get killer deals on the off lease versions.

[Dicey]

I drive a Toyota Venza. My friend has a Lexus Sedan. I've driven it a couple of times and it feels like I'm driving my own car. However, hers costs a lot more to maintain and insure. However, I like the way you're analyzing what your options are.

My knees are old and creaky from years of long-distance cycling, my MIL has ALZ and lives with us, and we own rentals that we self-manage seven+ hours away from our primary home. Comfortable, reliable, workhorse transportation is a must for us. As long as you can afford what you're driving, I don't give one whit what it is, so no hate from this quarter. Pete even bought himself a brand-new Leaf, remember?

[Bruinguy]

One difference to consider is cost of maintenance.  Fancy cars have fancy parts.  They may require premium gas too.

The best example I have is the "air suspension" for a BMW...essentially using a balloon to hold up the car.  Guess what?  They fail.  Pretty regularly, in my experience.

My Prius on the other hand has only needed regular maintenance for the five years that I have owned it (between when it was 5 years old to 10 years old now).

[Clean Shaven]

That's part of the reason to go Lexus - it's a fancy Toyota. Most don't have much weird stuff that'll be expensive even if it fails - I can't think of anything in the IS, GS, or ES that's particularly fragile. The GX, LX, and LS have rear air suspension (some optional).

The post above brings up a good point: insurance cost and registration will likely be a bit higher. Worth checking out before purchasing.

[terran]

Interesting. Makes a certain amount of sense.

When you say "better deal" it sounds like you mean the luxury brand is sold at a greater discount compared to new? Not that when comparing the same mileage and same type of car (compact, midsize, etc), the luxury brand made by the same manufacturer is actually cheaper?

In that case then you're still paying something extra for the brand name and the bells and whistles, even if it's less extra than if bought new. Nothing wrong with that if those things are worth it to you when the difference is smaller, but in absolute terms it sounds like the toyota is still the "better deal" in terms of most economical form of transportation.

The only other thing I would consider is whether there is a difference in parts and maintenance cost.

[Dave1442397]

I just bought a 2011 Lexus for 25% of what it cost new. With only 52k miles on it, I could see it lasting a long time. It was serviced at the Lexus dealer every 5,000 miles, and just had all the brake pads and tires replaced.

Parts in general are at Toyota prices. I just ordered 8 spark plugs for $112 including shipping (from a Toyota dealer).

I've only put a few hundred miles on it yet, and I can't wait to take it on a 900-mile business trip next month.

[inline five]

I just bought a 2011 Lexus for 25% of what it cost new. With only 52k miles on it, I could see it lasting a long time. It was serviced at the Lexus dealer every 5,000 miles, and just had all the brake pads and tires replaced.

Parts in general are at Toyota prices. I just ordered 8 spark plugs for $112 including shipping (from a Toyota dealer).

I've only put a few hundred miles on it yet, and I can't wait to take it on a 900-mile business trip next month.

$112 for spark plugs...lol

Volvo blue box dealer plugs for my car are $31 for five and the Bosch alternative is $8.45...that is for a SET OF FIVE...

$112 for spark plugs...lol...sorry I'm laughing with you not at you....

To be fair if I was going to buy a Toyota product it would probably be a Lexus, I like luxury and older depreciated luxury can be a good deal if you do the work yourself. What Lexus did you get? I'd like a wagon type car but their only one is a low end model and I got turned off to lower end Lexi when their dash's started peeling.

[GU]

When you say "better deal" it sounds like you mean the luxury brand is sold at a greater discount compared to new? Not that when comparing the same mileage and same type of car (compact, midsize, etc), the luxury brand made by the same manufacturer is actually cheaper?

Yes, greater discount relative to new.  But I've actually seen Lexuses that cost basically the same as their Toyota cognate, with basically the same mileage.  The Lexus is usually a couple years older, but again, same mileage.

One difference to consider is cost of maintenance.  Fancy cars have fancy parts.  They may require premium gas too.

My understanding is that this is true for German luxury cars, but as another poster mentioned, Lexuses are basically souped up Toyotas. I'm willing to be disabused of this notion if false though.

Any gearheads want to opine on the necessity of premium gas? I've always thought of it as not truly a requirement, just a "nice if you're willing to pay for it" sort of thing.  But while I've driven cars that "require" premium gas, and even pumped them full of regular gas (seemed to drive fine), I've never owned such a car.

Also, some of this depends on what you consider a better deal - if it means % off new price, then yes, without a doubt.  OTOH, a higher discount off a Lexus ES may still be more dollars than a lower discount off a Camry.  If it's at all close, however, I'd pick the ES or any Lexus equivalent over its Toyota counterpart. They're just much nicer finished. Longer warranty too.

Yeah, in the $15k - $20k price range, I'm not excited about the used Toyotas on the market, but there are some Lexuses that are appealing. I don't want to spend more than $20k.  Everything less than $15k seems to be a beater or just too old (like 2005 or older). This will be my family's primary car, used mostly by my wife to cart around the kids on errands, visits with family, etc. I don't want it breaking down, and I want modern safety features.  My main concern with purchasing a Lexus is that I like to be low-key; I don't want people thinking I'm rich!

[NorthernBlitz]

When you say "better deal" it sounds like you mean the luxury brand is sold at a greater discount compared to new? Not that when comparing the same mileage and same type of car (compact, midsize, etc), the luxury brand made by the same manufacturer is actually cheaper?

Yes, greater discount relative to new.  But I've actually seen Lexuses that cost basically the same as their Toyota cognate, with basically the same mileage.  The Lexus is usually a couple years older, but again, same mileage.

For me, I look for a low priced vehicle that I'm confident will get to 200k miles. But, since we have winter (and salted roads) here in upstate NY (and formerly around Toronto) cars here are more likely to die due to rust on the frame instead of mileage on the engine.

So for me, I'd prefer to buy the younger Toyota with fewer years over the older and fancier Lexus. I may think differently if I didn't live in a place that salted the roads in the winter.

[big_slacker]

When you say "better deal" it sounds like you mean the luxury brand is sold at a greater discount compared to new? Not that when comparing the same mileage and same type of car (compact, midsize, etc), the luxury brand made by the same manufacturer is actually cheaper?

Yes, greater discount relative to new.  But I've actually seen Lexuses that cost basically the same as their Toyota cognate, with basically the same mileage.  The Lexus is usually a couple years older, but again, same mileage.

One difference to consider is cost of maintenance.  Fancy cars have fancy parts.  They may require premium gas too.

My understanding is that this is true for German luxury cars, but as another poster mentioned, Lexuses are basically souped up Toyotas. I'm willing to be disabused of this notion if false though.

Any gearheads want to opine on the necessity of premium gas? I've always thought of it as not truly a requirement, just a "nice if you're willing to pay for it" sort of thing.  But while I've driven cars that "require" premium gas, and even pumped them full of regular gas (seemed to drive fine), I've never owned such a car.

Also, some of this depends on what you consider a better deal - if it means % off new price, then yes, without a doubt.  OTOH, a higher discount off a Lexus ES may still be more dollars than a lower discount off a Camry.  If it's at all close, however, I'd pick the ES or any Lexus equivalent over its Toyota counterpart. They're just much nicer finished. Longer warranty too.

Yeah, in the $15k - $20k price range, I'm not excited about the used Toyotas on the market, but there are some Lexuses that are appealing. I don't want to spend more than $20k.  Everything less than $15k seems to be a beater or just too old (like 2005 or older). This will be my family's primary car, used mostly by my wife to cart around the kids on errands, visits with family, etc. I don't want it breaking down, and I want modern safety features.  My main concern with purchasing a Lexus is that I like to be low-key; I don't want people thinking I'm rich!

Most parts are regular toyota and any indy shop that works on toyota can do lexus. DIY stuff like plugs, oil, filters, brakes and so on are all just as cheap. Some of the electronic gadgets might be more $$. For sure if you buy a sportier model things like tires will be a larger one time cost.

RE premium gas. This is not a 'scam'. Some engines run a higher compression ratio AKA the fuel is under more pressure within the cylinder. Under this pressure the lower octane gas can detonate early due to pressure instead of at the proper time by the spark plug firing. This puts extra stress on the engine and over time can cause damage. Higher octane gas is more resistant to detonation, that's why some engines require it.

Any modern car's ECU will detect and adjust the engine's timing to compensate and avoid damage. This is why it's not a huge deal if you fill up with lower octane gas in a car that is spec'd for higher. However that means the car is running suboptimally. Lower MPG, less power, etc. It's also worth noting the differences might be small enough that they're not easily measurable, so some folks have taken this to mean there is no difference.

The best ways to save money on gas is buying a fuel efficient car and driving less.

[zolotiyeruki]

Any gearheads want to opine on the necessity of premium gas? I've always thought of it as not truly a requirement, just a "nice if you're willing to pay for it" sort of thing.  But while I've driven cars that "require" premium gas, and even pumped them full of regular gas (seemed to drive fine), I've never owned such a car.

Premium gas is needed for engines that run at higher compression ratios. If you use lower-case fuel in a high-compression engine, the fuel can spontaneously combust too early, and that's bad. There is no problem with putting high-octane fuel in a lower-compression engine.

Traditionally, diesel engines actually rely on the fuel combusting when compressed.

[SnackDog]

Luxury makes and luxury trim levels generally depreciate much faster than base makes or trim levels.  Thus, Lexus depreciate faster than Toyota.  Fully loaded anything depreciates faster than base model anything.  Why? Because automakers get way more profit on the luxury makes and trims so it is much easier to discount that as it really isn't worth the value differential after a year or two. Also, cars with more gadgets tend to break more and require more upkeep effort and cost, thus hastening depreciation.

Don't fall into the trap that faster depreciating cars are "better deals".  They were much worse deals when new.  They are still worse deals as they will continue to depreciate much faster, in some cases even "overtaking" less luxurious models in price.

[Clean Shaven]

Luxury makes and luxury trim levels generally depreciate much faster than base makes or trim levels.  Thus, Lexus depreciate faster than Toyota.  Fully loaded anything depreciates faster than base model anything.  Why? Because automakers get way more profit on the luxury makes and trims so it is much easier to discount that as it really isn't worth the value differential after a year or two. Also, cars with more gadgets tend to break more and require more upkeep effort and cost, thus hastening depreciation.

Don't fall into the trap that faster depreciating cars are "better deals".  They were much worse deals when new.  They are still worse deals as they will continue to depreciate much faster, in some cases even "overtaking" less luxurious models in price.

IMHO people buy Toyota because of reliability and basic transportation needs. The people who buy new Lexus want the luxury or perceived status, generally, but want Toyota reliability and believe that the European luxury brands are not as reliable.

Those of us looking for a deal on a used Toyota but who like the luxury stuff (or in some cases better performance than the Toyota equivalent) look for used Lexus. 

I don't understand the comment about falling into the trap (quote above).

On the issue of premium or standard octane fuel: this is going to vary on case by case per vehicle. Some cars require premium, some will say premium recommended but will run fine on standard, at reduced HP output. Google should provide the info for anyone concerned about this when shopping.

[accolay]

And Lexus is actually the most reliable car brand in the world based on my research, though Toyota is probably 2nd place.

How much more reliable is the Lexus vs the Toyota? Or Honda? As long as regular maintenance is performed and worn parts are replaced, does it really matter? Boils down to what you want.

[Dave1442397]

I just bought a 2011 Lexus for 25% of what it cost new. With only 52k miles on it, I could see it lasting a long time. It was serviced at the Lexus dealer every 5,000 miles, and just had all the brake pads and tires replaced.

Parts in general are at Toyota prices. I just ordered 8 spark plugs for $112 including shipping (from a Toyota dealer).

I've only put a few hundred miles on it yet, and I can't wait to take it on a 900-mile business trip next month.

$112 for spark plugs...lol

Volvo blue box dealer plugs for my car are $31 for five and the Bosch alternative is $8.45...that is for a SET OF FIVE...

$112 for spark plugs...lol...sorry I'm laughing with you not at you....

To be fair if I was going to buy a Toyota product it would probably be a Lexus, I like luxury and older depreciated luxury can be a good deal if you do the work yourself. What Lexus did you get? I'd like a wagon type car but their only one is a low end model and I got turned off to lower end Lexi when their dash's started peeling.

It's the LS 460. Apparently there are a lot of fake spark plugs on the market, and even legitimate alternatives from other manufacturers are not quite the right spec. One of the more technical owners posted pics of the different plugs he's come across, and some of them were very obviously wrong, even to my untrained eye.

[Dave1442397]

Check out this $200 Lexus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvzCJTTUQWU&t=0s

The car looks pretty bad when he first picks it up, but either watch or skip to the end to see how it looks after a good detailing.

[Dicey]

Check out this $200 Lexus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvzCJTTUQWU&t=0s

The car looks pretty bad when he first picks it up, but either watch or skip to the end to see how it looks after a good detailing.

Fun rabbit hole!

[mcneally]

Yeah, in the $15k - $20k price range, I'm not excited about the used Toyotas on the market, but there are some Lexuses that are appealing. I don't want to spend more than $20k.  Everything less than $15k seems to be a beater or just too old (like 2005 or older).

It's fine if you want to buy a used Lexus for the luxury features and you can afford it. You're lying to yourself if you say that used Lexus and Toyota cost anywhere near the same though. $20k is what about what a new Camry costs. You certainly don't have to go back to 2005 models to find a Toyota under $15k.

[GU]

Check out this $200 Lexus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvzCJTTUQWU&t=0s

The car looks pretty bad when he first picks it up, but either watch or skip to the end to see how it looks after a good detailing.

Thanks for the link.  His other videos look amusing as well.

[GU]

Yeah, in the $15k - $20k price range, I'm not excited about the used Toyotas on the market, but there are some Lexuses that are appealing. I don't want to spend more than $20k.  Everything less than $15k seems to be a beater or just too old (like 2005 or older).

It's fine if you want to buy a used Lexus for the luxury features and you can afford it. You're lying to yourself if you say that used Lexus and Toyota cost anywhere near the same though. $20k is what about what a new Camry costs. You certainly don't have to go back to 2005 models to find a Toyota under $15k.

I'm looking at SUVs, which are more expensive, but your point is well taken. That is sort of what I figured—it's too good to be true that a Lexus would cost the same as an analogous Toyota.

[Just Joe]

One difference to consider is cost of maintenance.  Fancy cars have fancy parts.  They may require premium gas too.

The best example I have is the "air suspension" for a BMW...essentially using a balloon to hold up the car.  Guess what?  They fail.  Pretty regularly, in my experience.

My Prius on the other hand has only needed regular maintenance for the five years that I have owned it (between when it was 5 years old to 10 years old now).

Those BMW air springs cost ~$140 each (x2). The air suspension compressor would be another $140 on Rock Auto. I wouldn't steer wide of a car for that repair. How many times would a car need that repair in its lifetime? Once? Twice? Certainly the BMW might have other quirks. Chat with some owners on internet forums.

I find lux/performance brand owners to be far more picky than I am.

Acura = mechanically similar to Honda, cosmetically unique to Acura. Usually quieter inside. "Requires" premium fuels for the sporty engines but will operate just fine on regular gas. You might not get 100% of the performance with regular gas but it won't hurt anything to putter around town calmly.

Acura RDX = Honda CRV
Acura MDX = Honda Odyssey minivan/Honda Pilot/Honda Ridgeline
Acura ILX = Honda Civic
Acura TLX = Honda Accord

Drivers may or may not like the more performance oriented character traits of the Acura lineup. See what you think.

Last time I looked at prices you could buy a new Honda four cylinder vehicle or a three year old Acura V6. The V6 SUV three row MDX gets 28 mpg on the interstate.

That's what we bought. 55% off compared to new at three years old. I do all my own maintenance. Mostly just Honda parts. Spark plugs are about $5 each. 

We have a cheap car for around town but wanted something comfortable for vacations or trips to see aged parents out of town. After ~40 years of cheap cars it was time we thought for something nicer. Not very MMM but our retirement plans have not been altered at all.

[Bruinguy]

Those BMW air springs cost ~$140 each (x2). The air suspension compressor would be another $140 on Rock Auto. I wouldn't steer wide of a car for that repair. How many times would a car need that repair in its lifetime? Once? Twice? Certainly the BMW might have other quirks. Chat with some owners on internet forums.

You are much handier and more resourceful than I am.  It was not something I was prepared to take on.  Even at a non-dealer mechanic, the repair was in the $750 range, for each one.  (I am in a HCOL, so that could play into it too.)  In my experience, the air springs last around 5 years.  For a used car buyer, that definitely makes it pretty likely to occur at least once during ownership. For me, $1,500 was just under 10% of the cost of the vehicle, so pretty material.

[Just Joe]

Ouch! Yes, DIY skills make a difference.

Next time a repair comes up see if you can source the parts and find someone to install them for you.

[BTDretire]

 I haven't read the whole thread, so I hope I'm not repeating.
I just went to get a key made for a 2009 Toyota 4 Runner.
 $80! not including tax.
 If you lose your key it's $200, to read the code, make and program a new key.

[Just Joe]

Don't lose a remote for one of the newer cars with push button start. I hear they are scary expensive at a dealer.

[tct]

Noticed the same thing as OP in my area. Used luxury cars are cheaper than base models. I wanted a basic toyota corolla. I settled for a used (150k miles) lexus ls400 for $2500. I've found the parts to be extremely expensive. And so many unwanted luxury items just waiting to break. I'm wishing I paid more for a used corolla at this point.

[Dave1442397]

Noticed the same thing as OP in my area. Used luxury cars are cheaper than base models. I wanted a basic toyota corolla. I settled for a used (150k miles) lexus ls400 for $2500. I've found the parts to be extremely expensive. And so many unwanted luxury items just waiting to break. I'm wishing I paid more for a used corolla at this point.

Hit up the Lexus forums for advice on parts and maintenance - https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-1st-and-2nd-gen-1990-2000-183/