Author Topic: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement  (Read 9231 times)

Goldielocks

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USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« on: September 01, 2016, 10:35:01 AM »
USA today (print) had an article on page 6B.   Most of it was decent, for a very short, low depth article, but one line stood out.

Apparently the average retiree candidate only has $12k saved.  The author hailed this as a tragedy and crisis.

I am not so sure -- Is it really 12k total?, or do those type of numbers exclude pensions, and Social Security?  Social Security alone is quite a large sum, so why all the "crisis" talk?

Anyone have a link to the "actual" retirement savings number average for persons without full Social Security or pensions?

SimplyMarvie

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mm1970

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2016, 11:58:21 AM »
I do have sympathy for families who are struggling.  There are many.  And I know many.  I grew up poor.  I have family that are still poor.  My son has classmates that are poor (single mom with 4 kids, working 10 hours a day, for example).

But to say that "all of the income is spent on necessities, and nothing is left over" is making a sweeping generalization.

1. Young people are not taught to save - IRAs, Roth, 401k.  Get used to taking money out very first thing.
2. Nobody learns the lesson to pay yourself first. If you get a raise, put half into savings/ retirement.
3. Tough times happen.  People are optimistic.  They think they will recover.  So, instead of tightening the belt when a layoff comes, they borrow against their 401k, and it never gets replenished.
4.  Plain old consumerism.

Bucksandreds

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2016, 12:05:47 PM »
The people I know who earn below the median income are 2 workers with kids and after childcare they probably have only 3/4 of what they would otherwise.  Then housing, food, car expenses (payment if newer and repairs if older), car insurance, rising health insurance costs, etc, etc ,etc they wind up with maybe 5-10% of what they earned to do what they want to with.  Some of these people save some of it (not that much available) and some of them smoke cigarettes or spend it.  The stress of 2 parents working full time with kids in daycare then spending your nights and weekends just trying to keep the household together is not easy. I see why some of them choose cigarettes and alcohol.  My wife and I earn 3-4 times the median, have no childcare expenses and one of us is home with the kids all week. Not only do we have more money.  We also have less stress due to more free time.  The real takeaway is that on a national scale we should help those who are working with maybe a mandatory retirement savings in the form of a tax credit for middle class and below workers that go directly a retirement account.  On a family scale we should encourage our children to pursue an income source which puts them in a comfortable position.

LivlongnProsper

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2016, 12:24:30 PM »
On a family scale we should encourage our children to pursue an income source which puts them in a comfortable position.

We do this explaining that having more money won't necessarily make you happier but lack of money can make life harder and I think sadder due to the stress mentioned.

mm1970

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 12:32:53 PM »
The people I know who earn below the median income are 2 workers with kids and after childcare they probably have only 3/4 of what they would otherwise.  Then housing, food, car expenses (payment if newer and repairs if older), car insurance, rising health insurance costs, etc, etc ,etc they wind up with maybe 5-10% of what they earned to do what they want to with.  Some of these people save some of it (not that much available) and some of them smoke cigarettes or spend it.  The stress of 2 parents working full time with kids in daycare then spending your nights and weekends just trying to keep the household together is not easy. I see why some of them choose cigarettes and alcohol.  My wife and I earn 3-4 times the median, have no childcare expenses and one of us is home with the kids all week. Not only do we have more money.  We also have less stress due to more free time.  The real takeaway is that on a national scale we should help those who are working with maybe a mandatory retirement savings in the form of a tax credit for middle class and below workers that go directly a retirement account.  On a family scale we should encourage our children to pursue an income source which puts them in a comfortable position.

This.  One mom in my kid's school (now a single parent of 4 kids...divorced or separated)...her 3rd just started kinder.  Was told "not ready for kinder".  She's devastated, and is trying to figure out how to make him ready.  "But keep in mind I work 10 hours a day."  Sheesh.  How do you even have the energy to do flashcards, or read, or count, or whatever?  (Her son has a late birthday.  Boys, and late birthdays, make kindergarten hard.  Kinder is like 1st grade used to be.  She shouldn't feel bad at all.  Her son will move into TK, so he will be fine.  Her struggle is, of course, childcare.  If they made her wait a year, that's an extra year of childcare.)

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 12:40:25 PM »
On a family scale we should encourage our children to pursue an income source which puts them in a comfortable position.

We do this explaining that having more money won't necessarily make you happier but lack of money can make life harder and I think sadder due to the stress mentioned.

I have a saying. I'm not sure if I heard it somewhere or came up with it on my own, but it is similar to what you just said:

Money doesn't buy happiness, but it is a prerequisite.

sirdoug007

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2016, 12:46:49 PM »
Anyone have a link to the "actual" retirement savings number average for persons without full Social Security or pensions?

The numbers are pretty bad.  This report put the number for people in their late 50s/early 60s at $17,000 (not including SS or pensions).  In the context of retirement, $17,000 is essentially zero.

Quote
Even those on the cusp of retirement — the median couple in their late 50s or early 60s — has saved only $17,000 in a retirement savings account, such as a defined-contribution 401(k), individual retirement account, Keogh or similar savings account.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-typical-american-couple-has-only-5000-saved-for-retirement-2016-04-28

Goldielocks

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2016, 01:13:33 PM »
Okay, I had time to search a bit more...

AARP 2012 study. (and if they don't know, who would?)

http://www.aarp.org/content/dam/aarp/research/public_policy_institute/econ_sec/2013/sources-of-income-for-older-americans-2012-fs-AARP-ppi-econ-sec.pdf

Retirement income of US individuals aged 65 and older.

So, the MEDIAN income is $20k...  $16k per year for women and $27.5k/year for men.
--A couple could therefore have income of $36k, median.. (assuming addition applies accurately)...

That is not too worrisome.  The problem is therefore single women..  especially elderly single women widowers.....

What happens to them?

wenchsenior

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2016, 03:12:39 PM »
Okay, I had time to search a bit more...

AARP 2012 study. (and if they don't know, who would?)

http://www.aarp.org/content/dam/aarp/research/public_policy_institute/econ_sec/2013/sources-of-income-for-older-americans-2012-fs-AARP-ppi-econ-sec.pdf

Retirement income of US individuals aged 65 and older.

So, the MEDIAN income is $20k...  $16k per year for women and $27.5k/year for men.
--A couple could therefore have income of $36k, median.. (assuming addition applies accurately)...

That is not too worrisome.  The problem is therefore single women..  especially elderly single women widowers.....

What happens to them?

We've had many threads on this topic before, though I'm not sure what terms you'd search for to isolate them.

Essentially, elderly single people, esp women (who are likely to be lower earners) are very poor and really have trouble. Both my and husband's mothers are such. Zero assets, spotty work histories of low-earning, no benefit jobs, and struggles with debt and medical coverage during their 50s until they became eligible for Medicare and SS eligibility. I bailed my mother out 2 or 3 times while I was in college and she was in her 50s and 60s. Some of this was her own passivity, mental health issues, and poor job choices (lots of part time, or under the table work). Even though she worked most of the 15 years up to retirement age, single events like car breakdowns, etc., would put her past the ability to cover her bills, and she would run up cc debt. She sometimes drove without insurance when juggling bills. She also didn't visit a doctor or dentist, except for emergencies, for approximately 20 years, because of the cost. As a result, she lost all her teeth and nearly died from a very treatable disease.

My mother arrived at SS and Medicare age, thankfully, without a true emergency arising. But she had no place to live, no car, and no assets. Her SS income of 1200/month (900/month after Medicare B).
We now provide her housing, her car, and some of her monthly support.  If we didn't, she would be in major trouble, and scraping by on a bit of state assistance, and in state assisted housing.

My husband's mother lives in a state with much better programs for the poor, so we help out a few times per year, but she barely scrapes by and emergencies arise (usually auto or medical costs) several times per year.

It is not a pretty picture to be poor at any time, but esp not when you are old. Seeing this up close keeps my husband and me hard on our FI plan. Amazingly, we have siblings that seem to have not taken the same lesson. Some people just don't seem to be wired for long term planning at all.


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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2016, 03:22:24 PM »
The 401k push has been a disaster, but mostly for the folks that already had jobs that provided pensions.

The purpose of the 401k system was to provide capital for wall street to play with.

Cassie

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2016, 05:12:41 PM »
WS: it sounds like your Mom had a mental illness which negatively impacted her ability to work.  I worked with this population for many years and it can be a real struggle to get them SSDI if they are too disabled to work and then get into housing, etc. Some of the waits are very long. In some parts of the country services are better then others. I have lived in places where senior housing was really nice and in other places not so much.  It is much easier to maintain employment with a physical disability versus a mental one unless of course the person is severely physically disabled and of course less stigma too.  This country needs to spend less $ on wars and other stupid stuff and more on helping the people that need it.  It is a complicated problem. I worry about the seniors that withdrew equity from their homes and now don't have that $ to fall back on. In the past many could sell their homes and use that $ in their old age.

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2016, 08:36:11 PM »
I'm in the process of helping my parents transition to retirement and going over Medicare plans, social security strategies, and estate planning.  I can't express how grateful I am to them for not only taking care of us but for also saving for retirement.  They worked multiple jobs and didn't live lavishly while they were financially supporting us.  The fact that they have the option to defer collecting SS until 70 puts them in a really good position.

I contrast this with my cousins who support my aunts while starting their own families or my in- laws that had to ask their kids for money.  Some of them never held high paying jobs and others have divorced.  It's true as others posted about how scary it is to be a single female retiree that spent their prime earning years as SAHMs.

I have advised some of my relatives to postpone collecting SS and go on public assistance and Medicaid as it would be better for them financially than to collect and go above the poverty income thresholds.

wenchsenior

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2016, 10:16:01 AM »
WS: it sounds like your Mom had a mental illness which negatively impacted her ability to work.  I worked with this population for many years and it can be a real struggle to get them SSDI if they are too disabled to work and then get into housing, etc. Some of the waits are very long. In some parts of the country services are better then others. I have lived in places where senior housing was really nice and in other places not so much.  It is much easier to maintain employment with a physical disability versus a mental one unless of course the person is severely physically disabled and of course less stigma too.  This country needs to spend less $ on wars and other stupid stuff and more on helping the people that need it.  It is a complicated problem. I worry about the seniors that withdrew equity from their homes and now don't have that $ to fall back on. In the past many could sell their homes and use that $ in their old age.

I agree that we/society need to get better at recognizing and dealing with the 'personality traps' that people commonly blunder into when trying to make their way through life.

Forum members regularly express surprise at how so many people can be so 'nonfunctional', they assume there must be mental illnesses at work. I guess that depends on how we define mental illness since a lot of traits occur on sliding scale. But I do think that pretty common personality traits and relatively minor problems, such as anxiety, avoidance, procrastination, etc., can combine to trip up a hell of a lot of people.

In my mother's case, she was born with a tendency to anxiety and insecurity. As she grew up, she mitigated these traits by avoiding many unfamiliar situations, and somewhat passive in terms of taking action on new things. She was fine when she was in an established routine where she felt confident about what to do. In terms of jobs: lack of job skills resulted in lack of confidence that she would be hired; and the fear of failure or being rejected. In practice, it usually was the job HUNT (not so much working the job once she got settled in) that caused her to avoid job hunting. If a friend with connections had just offered her a decently paying job, without making her jump through all the hoops, and then encouraged her through the first few months of inevitable screw ups until she gained confidence, then perhaps  a lot of things in her life would have been different down the road. But she (and the vast majority of people) aren't that fortunate, of course. It was the same with managing her divorce settlement. She didn't know who she should speak to about it, who was trustworthy, and she didn't want to look stupid. Rather than risk making a bad immediate decision, she made none at all and kept the settlement in her checking, until she eventually burned through it a few years later. It wasn't like she made any single terrible decisions, just the accumulated weight of a lot of these tendencies just sort of snowballed over time.

I do think  people who have naturally very proactive personalities, are very optimistic, or who have a lot of inherent self confidence, underestimate how easy it is for just a few crucial personality traits or minor, common problems (such as anxiety or procrastination) can combine to really stymie people from making good choices that affect long term security. If making good decisions about one's life easy, we'd all be great at our jobs, super fit, financially secure, never divorced, etc!

NESailor

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2016, 10:45:49 AM »
I see these stories and often wonder how this can be when median wages in this country are so damn high.  I understand that disasters happen and certain people get dealt a really crappy hand (my father died essentially destitute at 54 so I've seen what untreated mental illness can do...)

But I still wonder who these people are.  My in-laws, for example, are completely financially illiterate.  I imagine them as the typical American household.  2 jobs slightly above median household income, eating out, unnecessarily large vehicles, full cable package, zero understanding or interest in anything finance/retirement.  Somehow, they still have a little over 200K in 401k savings + a paid off house. 

I think they'll be fine unless they burn right through it in their early 60s.  All I can think every time I talk to them about retirement is:  "if only you'd avoided the crappy funds, financed fewer cars and contributed just a fraction more...you'd be millionaires now".  I don't have the heart to tell them that.

Mtngrl

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2016, 12:11:09 PM »
There are so many different reasons people find themselves at retirement age with very few resources.
My mother struggled constantly -- she had worked all her life, mostly as a nurse, but she was single and had medical problems that took up what little savings she had managed to accumulate. She took years off to raise children and the Social Security she received wasn't adequate to pay all her bills.
Then again, I know two men who are elderly and in ill health now and must rely completely on Social Security and charity. They both worked good jobs in their working years, but have multiple marriages and children, multiple divorces and series of poor decisions that have left them alone and broke. They both have admitted to me that their situation is their own fault. They are reduced to renting cheap rooms, have no cars, can't afford dental care. It's very sad.

ender

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2016, 12:27:13 PM »
1. Young people are not taught to save - IRAs, Roth, 401k.  Get used to taking money out very first thing.
2. Nobody learns the lesson to pay yourself first. If you get a raise, put half into savings/ retirement.
3. Tough times happen.  People are optimistic.  They think they will recover.  So, instead of tightening the belt when a layoff comes, they borrow against their 401k, and it never gets replenished.
4.  Plain old consumerism.

I think part of the problem is people just don't take responsibility for their lives.

This is made more apparent in retirement savings, because you see the compounded effect of many, many, many decisions throughout the course of someone's life.

RosieTR

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2016, 12:27:20 PM »
I do have sympathy for families who are struggling.  There are many.  And I know many.  I grew up poor.  I have family that are still poor.  My son has classmates that are poor (single mom with 4 kids, working 10 hours a day, for example).

But to say that "all of the income is spent on necessities, and nothing is left over" is making a sweeping generalization.

1. Young people are not taught to save - IRAs, Roth, 401k.  Get used to taking money out very first thing.
2. Nobody learns the lesson to pay yourself first. If you get a raise, put half into savings/ retirement.
3. Tough times happen.  People are optimistic.  They think they will recover.  So, instead of tightening the belt when a layoff comes, they borrow against their 401k, and it never gets replenished.
4.  Plain old consumerism.

Maybe for some, but both DH and I have siblings who are either deeply in debt or have next to no assets. Same parents and thus similar upbringing. Both my parents and MIL are in good shape (FIL is deceased) financially from years of frugal living combined with paying themselves first and spending according to values rather than trying to keep up with everyone else.
Somehow we each got the message, 1/3 of each family. But it's more, much more, than "education". It's mindset and commitment and belief in the future, which yes is very difficult for the vast majority of the population.

I've seen these stats in other articles and similar stats from other studies so yeah, I believe it. Yikes.

Cassie

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2016, 05:11:58 PM »
WS:  anxiety can be crippling at times. Our program would hire people to find our clients jobs and get them interviews etc if they could not handle this part of the process due to a variety of factors.  Some people were like your Mom, some were intellectually handicapped and could hold a job but not obtain one, etc.  Unfortunately many programs that are free and help people are not known to the population that needs the services.

SwordGuy

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2016, 05:25:28 PM »
The real takeaway is that on a national scale we should help those who are working with maybe a mandatory retirement savings in the form of a tax credit for middle class and below workers that go directly a retirement account.

In the USA, that would be Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid.   

Not only do poor people have money set aside for their use when they reach (normal) retirement age or get disabled, middle class and wealthy people subsidize their benefits by contributing a large portion of their contributions for that purpose.


wenchsenior

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2016, 05:29:51 PM »
WS:  anxiety can be crippling at times. Our program would hire people to find our clients jobs and get them interviews etc if they could not handle this part of the process due to a variety of factors.  Some people were like your Mom, some were intellectually handicapped and could hold a job but not obtain one, etc.  Unfortunately many programs that are free and help people are not known to the population that needs the services.

Yeah, and getting people to use them is a challenge. My mom kept denying she wanted help. She was always ''just about to take action,' and a lot of times, I think she even convinced herself. Plus, at the point at which this was happening, and an intervention would have done her the most good, I was about 16 and my sisters were even younger. We were dealing with our OWN reactions to the divorce and having our lives turned inside out with a move to a new city.  I was way too self centered and wrapped up in my OWN anxiety about approaching adulthood. I didn't have a good perspective on what was normal. I also didn't think about long term consequences of anyone's actions at that age, most certainly including my own. Ironically enough, my mother did make ME go to therapy for a few months, because of depression. And it was helpful LOL...who knew?

It wasn't until a good 10 years later that I realized that she would never be proactive on her own behalf, and where the 'sticking' points were, and practical things that might have been done to address them. The main one was, as you said, job hunting on her behalf and trying to get  her in the door. That was successful, she got a job via me, and it staved off the crucial crisis point for about 15 years, which I count as a major win.

Ah, 20:20 hindsight is great LOL.

Cassie

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2016, 05:41:01 PM »
You were all too young and not adults so really none of your fault or your sibs.  Sometimes life is just shitty. If your Mom is still able to work AARP has a program where they pay seniors 10/hour to work 20 hours/week for different organizations that might need some help. So I worked for the state and we had some of their workers. It might be worth checking into.

wenchsenior

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2016, 05:44:57 PM »
You were all too young and not adults so really none of your fault or your sibs.  Sometimes life is just shitty. If your Mom is still able to work AARP has a program where they pay seniors 10/hour to work 20 hours/week for different organizations that might need some help. So I worked for the state and we had some of their workers. It might be worth checking into.

Oh, thanks! That might be really good for her. She has to get a cataract taken care of this winter, but she used to like the structure of working. It's been about five years, but I will look into it.

friedmmj

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2016, 05:00:18 AM »
You were all too young and not adults so really none of your fault or your sibs.  Sometimes life is just shitty. If your Mom is still able to work AARP has a program where they pay seniors 10/hour to work 20 hours/week for different organizations that might need some help. So I worked for the state and we had some of their workers. It might be worth checking into.

Oh, thanks! That might be really good for her. She has to get a cataract taken care of this winter, but she used to like the structure of working. It's been about five years, but I will look into it.

Wenchsenior, I just wanted to compliment you.  I really enjoyed reading your insightful and articulate comments in this thread.  You need a better handle though....haha

wenchsenior

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2016, 10:05:33 AM »
You were all too young and not adults so really none of your fault or your sibs.  Sometimes life is just shitty. If your Mom is still able to work AARP has a program where they pay seniors 10/hour to work 20 hours/week for different organizations that might need some help. So I worked for the state and we had some of their workers. It might be worth checking into.

Oh, thanks! That might be really good for her. She has to get a cataract taken care of this winter, but she used to like the structure of working. It's been about five years, but I will look into it.

Wenchsenior, I just wanted to compliment you.  I really enjoyed reading your insightful and articulate comments in this thread.  You need a better handle though....haha

Oh, I LOVE my name. My husband gave it to me. He calls all the women in my family (affectionately) The Wenches. The Grand Wench (now deceased); Auntie Wenches (by number); Mother Wench; Wenchsenior; Wenchjunior; and the youngest: The Wenchlet (I actually rarely hear him refer to my littlest sister by her real name.

SeaEhm

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2016, 01:29:32 PM »
I do have sympathy for families who are struggling.  There are many.  And I know many.  I grew up poor.  I have family that are still poor.  My son has classmates that are poor (single mom with 4 kids, working 10 hours a day, for example).

But to say that "all of the income is spent on necessities, and nothing is left over" is making a sweeping generalization.

1. Young people are not taught to save - IRAs, Roth, 401k.  Get used to taking money out very first thing.
2. Nobody learns the lesson to pay yourself first. If you get a raise, put half into savings/ retirement.
3. Tough times happen.  People are optimistic.  They think they will recover.  So, instead of tightening the belt when a layoff comes, they borrow against their 401k, and it never gets replenished.
4.  Plain old consumerism.

I like you.
You have nice posts.
They comfort me.
I agree.

MoneyCat

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2016, 05:13:43 PM »
They may have to eat cat food in old age, but, man, they had some awesome muscle cars in the meanwhile.

iris lily

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2016, 06:02:57 PM »
My net worth is exactly 10x that of my mother.

My parents were not spendthrifts, they were sensible,with money. But they had children and them thangs are expensive! Haha.

But in the end, we have more money because
1) inflation
2) no children
3) it was our goal to FIRE
 a bit early, which we did

I think that in the overal inflatin adjusted world, they probably made as much money n their household as we did bedore retirement.

Cassie

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2016, 04:19:40 PM »
My father used to say"Do you want children or do you want money because you can't have both."

iris lily

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2016, 05:34:10 PM »
My father used to say"Do you want children or do you want money because you can't have both."
Haha, yep!

MoneyCat

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2016, 06:22:52 PM »
I really do think it would be a good idea to have a federal retirement system that people automatically pay into unless they opt out. Like an IRA or something that comes out of the paycheck so people won't miss it unless they are really looking for it. I know a lot of people feel differently, but it's a lot harder to educate people financially than to just enact legislation to protect them. Everyone on this forum is above average IQ and above average talent for personal finance, but the average person isn't like us. Sometimes, people need to be saved from themselves.

Goldielocks

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2016, 12:04:01 AM »
I really do think it would be a good idea to have a federal retirement system that people automatically pay into unless they opt out. Like an IRA or something that comes out of the paycheck so people won't miss it unless they are really looking for it. I know a lot of people feel differently, but it's a lot harder to educate people financially than to just enact legislation to protect them. Everyone on this forum is above average IQ and above average talent for personal finance, but the average person isn't like us. Sometimes, people need to be saved from themselves.

How is this different from SS ?  I know SS combines this feature with disabiilty, and the $ go to general revenues, but ?? how is it different?

MrsPete

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2016, 08:37:32 AM »
In my mother's case, she was born with a tendency to anxiety and insecurity. As she grew up, she mitigated these traits by avoiding many unfamiliar situations, and somewhat passive in terms of taking action on new things. She was fine when she was in an established routine where she felt confident about what to do. In terms of jobs: lack of job skills resulted in lack of confidence that she would be hired; and the fear of failure or being rejected. In practice, it usually was the job HUNT (not so much working the job once she got settled in) that caused her to avoid job hunting. If a friend with connections had just offered her a decently paying job, without making her jump through all the hoops, and then encouraged her through the first few months of inevitable screw ups until she gained confidence, then perhaps  a lot of things in her life would have been different down the road. But she (and the vast majority of people) aren't that fortunate, of course. It was the same with managing her divorce settlement. She didn't know who she should speak to about it, who was trustworthy, and she didn't want to look stupid. Rather than risk making a bad immediate decision, she made none at all and kept the settlement in her checking, until she eventually burned through it a few years later. It wasn't like she made any single terrible decisions, just the accumulated weight of a lot of these tendencies just sort of snowballed over time.
When I was a young adult I'd never heard of "Anxiety" (well, I mean, other than in the context of a single event ... I have a big test next week, and I'm anxious about it).  Today I have 3-4 students in every class who are diagnosed with Anxiety.  I think today's reliance on technology /decreasing social skills among teens is a part of it.  Regardless, thinking of these students, yes, your above description rings true to me -- these people with Anxiety don't know what to do, don't want to appear foolish, so they do nothing, they procrastinate, they hope somehow the situation will just work itself out.  Sometimes things do work themselves out, more often they don't -- but long-term it's a recipe for disaster. 

But I still wonder who these people are.  My in-laws, for example, are completely financially illiterate.  I imagine them as the typical American household.  2 jobs slightly above median household income, eating out, unnecessarily large vehicles, full cable package, zero understanding or interest in anything finance/retirement.  Somehow, they still have a little over 200K in 401k savings + a paid off house. 
I bet they're not financially illiterate; they know they should save, and they know that by skipping some of the above luxuries, they could save.  What people like this lack -- and I think they're totally average Americans -- is the day-to-day willpower to make better choices.  Saving is often compared to dieting: Everyone knows how to lose weight, but ordering a pizza and watching Jeopardy every night is easier than cooking something healthy and then going for a walk. 

But it's more, much more, than "education". It's mindset and commitment and belief in the future, which yes is very difficult for the vast majority of the population.
This I totally believe.  Personal finance IS taught in high school.  I see my homeroom kids doing homework dealing with compound interest.  I was assigned to give the state test in Civics, and I saw two essay questions dealing with borrowing and credit cards.  I know that another class does a semester-long stock project in which they choose/monitor stock choices and compete to see who "earns" the most over the semester.  On a more practical level, Home Ec students complete projects dealing with the cost of preparing for a baby, then the cost of maintaining a baby's needs.  They also plan meals with a budget.  Personal finance is an elective class, though few take that.  Why doesn't it stick?  Because it seems un-real to teenagers; they don't connect it to personal long-term goals, so it's no more real to them than studying Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War. 

But kids who have the "mindset and commitment" do internalize the idea, and they seek out the information they need.  I've said on this website before, I realized in high school that I wanted to be financially secure (not a luxury I enjoyed in childhood), and in college I realized that I had at my disposal ALL the information I could ever need -- for free -- in the college library.  So I started reading.  Today it's even easier with the advent of the internet.  But, yeah, without the "mindset and commitment", all the information in the world amounts to nothing.

My father used to say"Do you want children or do you want money because you can't have both."
I have both, and I'm not a 'specially high earner. 


wenchsenior

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2016, 08:55:06 AM »
I really do think it would be a good idea to have a federal retirement system that people automatically pay into unless they opt out. Like an IRA or something that comes out of the paycheck so people won't miss it unless they are really looking for it. I know a lot of people feel differently, but it's a lot harder to educate people financially than to just enact legislation to protect them. Everyone on this forum is above average IQ and above average talent for personal finance, but the average person isn't like us. Sometimes, people need to be saved from themselves.

How is this different from SS ?  I know SS combines this feature with disabiilty, and the $ go to general revenues, but ?? how is it different?

I could imagine a compulsory IRA or such, as Moneycat suggests. In practice of how much retirees would be affected in terms of retirement cash flow, versus current programs, is hard to say. The main difference would be that the money collected would actually be 'owned' by the individual.

Social Security is not an investment program, i.e., your money is not being taken and invested to give back to you. It's an insurance program. Once you are taxed, that money is gone from you. It goes into a pool, out of which pool people who qualify for benefits are then paid (usually much older people). And you will then be paid (assuming you live long enough and qualify) out of the tax money collected from younger workers' paychecks.

Whereas a compulsory investment system would be each individual person's ACTUAL money, being put into some sort of federally guaranteed investment vehicle of some predetermined risk level, and restrictions on when and how the person would access it. But it would be each individual's actual money, owned by them (and therefore they could pass it to heirs, etc.)

I also think this isn't a bad idea conceptually, but I'm not sure how it could be implemented. It might be more efficient to just raise taxes on SS and make the payout larger at the lower income end (even more progressive than it is now). Alicia Munnell at Boston College does a lot of interesting analysis of exactly this kind of thing if you want to fall into a Google rabbit hole of statistical papers on retirement (and I'm sure many of us do LOL).

« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 08:58:27 AM by wenchsenior »

wenchsenior

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2016, 09:00:55 AM »
In my mother's case, she was born with a tendency to anxiety and insecurity. As she grew up, she mitigated these traits by avoiding many unfamiliar situations, and somewhat passive in terms of taking action on new things. She was fine when she was in an established routine where she felt confident about what to do. In terms of jobs: lack of job skills resulted in lack of confidence that she would be hired; and the fear of failure or being rejected. In practice, it usually was the job HUNT (not so much working the job once she got settled in) that caused her to avoid job hunting. If a friend with connections had just offered her a decently paying job, without making her jump through all the hoops, and then encouraged her through the first few months of inevitable screw ups until she gained confidence, then perhaps  a lot of things in her life would have been different down the road. But she (and the vast majority of people) aren't that fortunate, of course. It was the same with managing her divorce settlement. She didn't know who she should speak to about it, who was trustworthy, and she didn't want to look stupid. Rather than risk making a bad immediate decision, she made none at all and kept the settlement in her checking, until she eventually burned through it a few years later. It wasn't like she made any single terrible decisions, just the accumulated weight of a lot of these tendencies just sort of snowballed over time.
When I was a young adult I'd never heard of "Anxiety" (well, I mean, other than in the context of a single event ... I have a big test next week, and I'm anxious about it).  Today I have 3-4 students in every class who are diagnosed with Anxiety.  I think today's reliance on technology /decreasing social skills among teens is a part of it.  Regardless, thinking of these students, yes, your above description rings true to me -- these people with Anxiety don't know what to do, don't want to appear foolish, so they do nothing, they procrastinate, they hope somehow the situation will just work itself out.  Sometimes things do work themselves out, more often they don't -- but long-term it's a recipe for disaster. 

But I still wonder who these people are.  My in-laws, for example, are completely financially illiterate.  I imagine them as the typical American household.  2 jobs slightly above median household income, eating out, unnecessarily large vehicles, full cable package, zero understanding or interest in anything finance/retirement.  Somehow, they still have a little over 200K in 401k savings + a paid off house. 
I bet they're not financially illiterate; they know they should save, and they know that by skipping some of the above luxuries, they could save.  What people like this lack -- and I think they're totally average Americans -- is the day-to-day willpower to make better choices.  Saving is often compared to dieting: Everyone knows how to lose weight, but ordering a pizza and watching Jeopardy every night is easier than cooking something healthy and then going for a walk.

But it's more, much more, than "education". It's mindset and commitment and belief in the future, which yes is very difficult for the vast majority of the population.
This I totally believe.  Personal finance IS taught in high school.  I see my homeroom kids doing homework dealing with compound interest.  I was assigned to give the state test in Civics, and I saw two essay questions dealing with borrowing and credit cards.  I know that another class does a semester-long stock project in which they choose/monitor stock choices and compete to see who "earns" the most over the semester.  On a more practical level, Home Ec students complete projects dealing with the cost of preparing for a baby, then the cost of maintaining a baby's needs.  They also plan meals with a budget. Personal finance is an elective class, though few take that.  Why doesn't it stick?  Because it seems un-real to teenagers; they don't connect it to personal long-term goals, so it's no more real to them than studying Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War

But kids who have the "mindset and commitment" do internalize the idea, and they seek out the information they need.  I've said on this website before, I realized in high school that I wanted to be financially secure (not a luxury I enjoyed in childhood), and in college I realized that I had at my disposal ALL the information I could ever need -- for free -- in the college library.  So I started reading.  Today it's even easier with the advent of the internet.  But, yeah, without the "mindset and commitment", all the information in the world amounts to nothing.

My father used to say"Do you want children or do you want money because you can't have both."
I have both, and I'm not a 'specially high earner.

Re: bolded text. EXACTLY. There are many people on this forum who seem to equate having accurate knowledge or information with correct behavior. In reality, those often have little to do with each other.

MrsPete

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2016, 10:17:55 AM »
Re: bolded text. EXACTLY. There are many people on this forum who seem to equate having accurate knowledge or information with correct behavior. In reality, those often have little to do with each other.
Further evidence:  My father was a CPA.  He was a math whiz, he managed huge sums of money in several different jobs over his career, and he could sniff out embezzlers like a bloodhound. But he could not manage his own paycheck.  Do you think he lacked knowledge?  That he didn't understand how to figure interest?  No, what he lacked was self-discipline.  And he lacked the delayed-gratification gene. 

Cassie

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Re: USA Today Article -- Parents facing retirement
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2016, 12:26:48 PM »
It was a joke. He meant you would have more $ if you never had kids. They were good with $ as we are.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!