Author Topic: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?  (Read 6193 times)

Ottawa

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1033
USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« on: February 21, 2013, 10:44:42 AM »
I always heard horror stories of medical coverage coming out of the States.  I knew it was quite bad; but I didn't realize it was this bad!  This is going to get far worse over the next 20 years while the full scale (pun intended) of poor diet, massive obesity and aging baby boomers add an even larger burden to the healthcare system.  Obviously the federal system appears broken.  Can these horror stories simply be mitigated by having appropriate private coverage as per MMM's article here: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/11/01/our-new-237-per-month-health-insurance-plan/

Is it the case that people who have fallen victim to these ridiculous health care bills previously saw more value in making payments on an Escalade or McMansion rather than private health care?

Article here:
http://healthland.time.com/2013/02/20/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/2/

chatsc

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 116
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 11:21:04 AM »
Wow, that is a pretty horrible system.

It is strange how people value their possessions over their health/future.  Or they dont prioritize their own future.  I guess that is the whole point of the MMM website...

My biggest "pet peeve" (for lack of a better word) is when a kid is having problems (for example, needs speech therapy, dental work, falling behind in school because of a learning problem, special diets, etc) and the parent swears they can't afford it, as they lease 2 brand new cars and live in a mcmansion....

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2075
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2013, 10:39:33 AM »
I read only about half of the first page of the very long article (11 pages online!), but as an American, I do find our health care to be a ridiculous travesty alongside our generally poor health and obesity problems. And the two are related to a degree -- our health care system should be taking more steps to help prevent and manage the poor habits many of us exhibit.

So yes, we can certainly pin many health problems and poor money management, on an individual's poor choices. But the sad thing is, even a responsible and otherwise-healthy person can be financially ruined by our country's ridiculous lack of health coverage and outrageously inflated health care costs.

I'm no liberal, and definitely don't ascribe to Michael Moore, but I found the movie "Sicko" to be pretty damn compelling. Pharmaceutical companies, insurers, and health care providers are raking in enormous profits, the highest in any industry. And they have the biggest and most expensive lobbying. I think it's outrageous that in our "advanced" society, health care coverage is so spotty and so outrageously expensive. How many different versions of erectile dysfunction, headache, anxiety/depression, and stomach gas medications do we need? 5? 6? 7? Meanwhile many devastating but "orphan" conditions remain untreated, and un-researched, since there's no profit in them.

Premiums for my own (very large) employer-provided coverage have gone up double digits, year after year, for about 10 years, while things they cover always decreases. And I'm very well employed. No wonder so many people end up without coverage. Even though "Obamacare" was fought tooth and nail and barely passed, it still ended up being so watered down, it ends up doing very little compared to the nationalized systems in other industrialized nations.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4038
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 11:52:07 AM »
...but as an American, I do find our health care to be a ridiculous travesty alongside our generally poor health and obesity problems. And the two are related to a degree -- our health care system should be taking more steps to help prevent and manage the poor habits many of us exhibit.

I have to disagree on that.  There's a big difference between "our generally poor health" &c, and my generally good (and deliberately maintained) health.  All the information one needs is readily available; all it takes for most people is a conscious decision; and not only is it not expensive, in most cases living a healthy lifestyle will save you money.  I don't see what more the health care system could be doing, in a non-totalitarian state.

I do think a lot of the problem with the costs of current health care is basically down to the insurance system.  If you have insurance, it's easy to say ok to say having 3 identical $200 tests done, because it doesn't cost you anything out-of-pocket, while the hospital & doctors have an incentive to order them.

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3421
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2013, 12:51:13 PM »
And the two are related to a degree -- our health care system should be taking more steps to help prevent and manage the poor habits many of us exhibit.
I see the situation as largely self-correcting, except for the excessively invasive life-prolonging intervention part...

Sylly

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 265
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2013, 02:40:00 PM »
I do think a lot of the problem with the costs of current health care is basically down to the insurance system.  If you have insurance, it's easy to say ok to say having 3 identical $200 tests done, because it doesn't cost you anything out-of-pocket, while the hospital & doctors have an incentive to order them.

That's only true for people whose insurance covers absolutely everything, and they don't have to high premiums for said insurance.

Even with insurance, the fact that the cost of most (all?) health services are generally unknown until you see your EOB (or call your provider and insurance prior to any service, then try to do the math yourself -- assuming they give you numbers) means that out-of-pocket health care cost can still add up to significant amount.

For example, I recently discovered that 2/3 blood tests that my primary physician ordered as part of an annual physical are in fact not covered as preventive care. Never mind that one blood draw turns into 3 tests with each costing at least $100 and totaling close to $400. Never mind that those very same tests were completely covered last year, and this year they only considered one to be preventative, leaving me with ~$200 bill. The utter lack of transparency is just ridiculous.

There's a lot wrong with our cost of health care. IMO, the insurance system is just one part of it.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2013, 04:54:37 PM »
Ok I just went and read all 11 pages of that and all I could keep thinking was why don't we have these types of investigative journalism in Australia? I love reading them, Rolling Stone does it really well too.

Can't profess to be expert in the American health system but the major issue I see is (economically) competition and (morally) preying on the sick and their families when they are at their most vulnerable. It's disgraceful, and the bastards are behaving like vultures. I would go so far as to say a Health Care CEO should be ranked below real estate agents, used car salesmen, ambo chasing lawyers and politicians in the most disreputable profession list.

Wow, that is a pretty horrible system.

It is strange how people value their possessions over their health/future.  Or they dont prioritize their own future.  I guess that is the whole point of the MMM website...

My biggest "pet peeve" (for lack of a better word) is when a kid is having problems (for example, needs speech therapy, dental work, falling behind in school because of a learning problem, special diets, etc) and the parent swears they can't afford it, as they lease 2 brand new cars and live in a mcmansion....

I understand you were not referring to it but within the article was the story of a widow who faced a $900,000 bill for cancer treatment for her deceased husband. You can't just re-prioritise spending to pay that.

The US "system" operates like a Mafia. "I can save your life but please put $7,500 on your credit card first". A lot of noise is spouted about "death panels" but they way I see it, it's the hospital administrators who decide who lives or who dies.

What price a life.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4038
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2013, 07:38:13 PM »
...a widow who faced a $900,000 bill for cancer treatment for her deceased husband. You can't just re-prioritise spending to pay that.

But OTOH, it's hard to see why she should get stuck with the bill.  Seems like the husband should pay, if he had lived.  Since he didn't... Well, they could try to collect.

Quote
What price a life.

I hear that from a lot of people, but the R&D needed to come up with cures* for diseases doesn't come for free, so you basically have a choice between expensive medicine and cheap early death.

*And it's instructive to reflect on how many diseases have been cured, over the last couple of centuries.  I like to point out Voltaire's comments to those who don't think modern medicine is doing much good:
Quote
Upon a general calculation, threescore persons in every hundred have the small-pox. Of these threescore, twenty die of it in the most favourable season of life, and as many more wear the disagreeable remains of it in their faces so long as they live. Thus, a fifth part of mankind either die or are disfigured by this distemper. But it does not prove fatal to so much as one among those who are inoculated in Turkey or in England...
http://www.bartleby.com/34/2/11.html

chatsc

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 116
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2013, 08:00:34 PM »
I agree, you cannot cancel your cable and pay off 900K. 

the entire medical system seems flawed in the us, as in other countries.  ours in canada is good/functional, but wait times are an issue.   But from what I understand, huge bills like this are few and far between, given the large US population.  Am I mistaken in this assumption, is it more common than I think?

my bigger point was regarding prevention.  fixing health problems before they get out of hand or even before they start, essp in children.  people might want to start taking responsibility for their health and the health of their families/dependants.  i hear the excuse "we dont have the money for that" a lot (whole food, preventative dental upkeep, fitness activties, autism/behavioral therapy).  the cdn gov has started by giving (small) tax rebates for kids sport activities to try to keep kids active.  it is a start.


James

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1678
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Rice Lake, WI
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2013, 08:11:00 PM »
It's a huge complex picture. This article covers problems with the system, but it's not complete or balanced. There are many possible solutions to the many huge problems with health care. Unfortunately the country's leaders aren't ready to find solutions, they are too busy feeding lobbyist and playing politics for votes. The key for people is to take control of their own healthcare. Stop just floating along and expecting things to magically "work out". If you go into the ER with heart pain, ask specific questions about what tests are needed and why. Same thing at your physical and any time you consume health care. Make sure the doctor knows you are paying cash if you are, and work to understand what is needed and why. If you don't have medical coverage of some sort you should treat that like a debt emergency and figure out a plan right now. Most people around the world don't have access or money for health care, having the ability to go into massive debt for health care would be considered a huge privilege for most of them. I could keep going, but I'll end this rant...  :D

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2013, 05:24:10 AM »

Quote
What price a life.

I hear that from a lot of people, but the R&D needed to come up with cures* for diseases doesn't come for free, so you basically have a choice between expensive medicine and cheap early death.

*And it's instructive to reflect on how many diseases have been cured, over the last couple of centuries.  I like to point out Voltaire's comments to those who don't think modern medicine is doing much good:
Quote
Upon a general calculation, threescore persons in every hundred have the small-pox. Of these threescore, twenty die of it in the most favourable season of life, and as many more wear the disagreeable remains of it in their faces so long as they live. Thus, a fifth part of mankind either die or are disfigured by this distemper. But it does not prove fatal to so much as one among those who are inoculated in Turkey or in England...
http://www.bartleby.com/34/2/11.html

I hear what you are saying, but the point is the prices charged are far in excess of what is needed to recoup R&D. The inventor of the smallpox vaccine did not make multi billion dollar profits out of it.

We've now got a situation where a biotech firm can patent specific parts of the human genome and prevent other scientists from conducting research on genes. It seems there is no line in the sand when it comes to profit.


my bigger point was regarding prevention.  fixing health problems before they get out of hand or even before they start, essp in children.  people might want to start taking responsibility for their health and the health of their families/dependants.  i hear the excuse "we dont have the money for that" a lot (whole food, preventative dental upkeep, fitness activties, autism/behavioral therapy).  the cdn gov has started by giving (small) tax rebates for kids sport activities to try to keep kids active.  it is a start.

Everyone has heard the message. It's just that adults who should know better are quite pathetic at being proper role models. Cigarettes are the classic example. Everyone thinks they are the one who isn't going to get cancer from them.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4038
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2013, 10:46:08 AM »
...the entire medical system seems flawed in the us, as in other countries.  ours in canada is good/functional, but wait times are an issue.

I can't help but wonder, though, just how good the Canadian system would be if it weren't for the US effectively funding much of the development of new treatments.

Self-employed-swami

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1090
  • Location: Canada
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2013, 11:11:03 AM »
The US has ten times the population of Canada, and therefor, logically, has ten times the number of researchers.   You also have the majority of drug companies.  Most Canadian research takes place at universities, not private labs here.

Self-employed-swami

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1090
  • Location: Canada
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2013, 11:13:55 AM »

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4038
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2013, 02:20:16 PM »
The US has ten times the population of Canada, and therefor, logically, has ten times the number of researchers.   You also have the majority of drug companies.

Exactly my point.  The US has (most of) those drug companies & other institutions which do R&D.  The are presumably recouping R&D costs off what they develop & sell to the US market, so anything extra they can sell to Canada, even at government-mandated low prices, is gravy.  But if the US mandated the same prices, they couldn't cover costs, and wouldn't do the R&D.

Self-employed-swami

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1090
  • Location: Canada
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2013, 03:43:51 PM »
I think if we didn't have the US R&D going on, we'd likely step up our academic funding for research.

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3421
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2013, 07:08:05 PM »
I can't help but wonder, though, just how good the Canadian system would be if it weren't for the US effectively funding much of the development of new treatments.
Aha.

And I wonder if they U.S. system would be "better" if they stopped tackling the "hopeless" cases and just let nature take its course.  Of course that approach might have to start with somebody's grandmother other than mine, unless that was Grandma's advanced healthcare directive...

Self-employed-swami

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1090
  • Location: Canada
Re: USA Healthcare Horror or simply Non-Mustachianism?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2013, 05:19:15 PM »
I actually had to pull a copy of my personal directive for the hospital (I am having surgery on march 6th) and I am firmly in the 'pull the plug and donate my organs' camp myself. I don't want millions of dollars spent on me, to keep my shell of a body alive, while my husband has to deal with all that emotional baggage, especially if I could help up to 12 other sick people, live a more normal life.

Just because it wouldn't cost my husband anymore than parking at the hospital, doesn't mean I want to waste taxpayer dollars.

When my Mom passed away, the biggest blessing was that we didn't have to make any of those hard decisions. I'm not a DNR either, but I've had a fucking decent 28 year run, and I'm here for quality of life over quantity.