Author Topic: US: Median income is $80k?!?  (Read 6938 times)

Log

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2025, 06:28:58 PM »
I’m not surprised that a young woman with no kids, car or partner in rent-controlled NYC can make 6 figures (entry-level publishing/marketing job), buy fashion (it’s cheap in NYC), eat well (food can be cheap too there) and travel the world.

Rent control doesn't do anything for young people - it only represents savings for long-time incumbents. (In fact, rent control is a contributing factor to why the rents are eye-wateringly unaffordable for young people. If you're the landlord of a rent-controlled apartment, you actually have the most incentive to start the rent as high as possible, since future increases are capped.)

Entry-level publishing jobs do not pay six-figures. Food is certainly more expensive in New York than in most other places in the country, and while you can order clothes online for the same price as anywhere else, they're certainly not cheaper than in other places.

Radagast

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2025, 06:52:52 PM »
My point is that it's *becoming* necessary. Kids from less than stellar backgrounds find it harder and harder to "break through," regardless of how hard-working and talented they may be.

While the kids with both talents and advantages will always tend to rise to the top, there ought to also be enough wiggle-room for those with talents but no parental advantage to still have a shot as well. That's how socieconomic mobility works.

But with arbitrary degree requirements and other forms of gatekeeping in the name of "merit", it's becoming less and less feasible for someone on the outside to work their way in.

I guess the status element I'm talking about here is a bit of a chicken-or-the-egg thing but...

Another element to this is that a lot of the highest status career fields people think of as dream jobs are particularly paywalled. Getting into academia, the arts, journalism, or politics requires tons of paying your dues in the form of unpaid internships, extremely poorly paid entry level work, extra education/training programs that are not cheap, so that eventually you can make a decent living in your 30s.

And then, unlike being a lawyer or a doctor where you get a massive salary to pay off your massive student loan balance, success in these fields is massively unequal, with lots of people who are undeniable successes in the field making middle class or upper-middle class salaries, but certainly not raking in the dough like someone in big law or medicine.

Then the careers that pay well while not requiring as much (or as costly of) education, like software, are often seen as kind of "new money" gauche. There's certainly an element of status to making good money and being good at what you do, but software engineers are the butt of a lot of jokes, and especially here in SF, people say they "work in tech" almost apologetically.

There's definitely an element of resource guarding to these generational elites keeping certain high status career fields costly to enter, and being protective of nepotistic pathways to success in these fields. It's no longer seen as appropriate for an heir of a big fortune to not work at all, but there's still an element of "leisure class" status-signaling to someone from a wealthy family being able to spend their young adulthood working a lot but not really making any money.

(In my time browsing substack I'm fascinated from afar by the whole sub-genre of "personal essays by young women in New York who somehow live alone, eat out at fancy restaurants, buy lots of clothes, and travel the world, even though they work an entry-level job in fashion or publishing.")

Or maybe it's also a bit of a David Brooks Bobos in Paradise kinda thing of having it both ways - the Bohemian "look I'm so above crass materialism that I didn't pursue one of those safe paths to money," but then still getting to enjoy the Bourgeoisie outcome after paying their dues.
Let's take a moment to consider just how strange all this must sound outside of the US HCOL-city context.

It must be an utterly fascinating view from China, where people struggle and work their butts off in toxic factories for low wages in the hopes of someday owning an apartment, to see Americans still jostling for status when they've exceeded all imaginable wealth and could simply move elsewhere in their same country to live a life of luxury and leisure. In most of Africa or Latin America, the thought of being independently wealthy but still working just for the respect of it would be a head-scratcher. Imagine talking to an average income person in India, about your plans to pay dues for a decade to get a prestige job that doesn't pay much.

How these workaholic / status-obsessive cultural values pull in millions of people, but the values which lead to FIRE do not, is the head scratcher for me.
I can't speak for everywhere on the list, but China at least in my experience is more extreme in this regard than the US. In fact I'd say it's quite a bit more extreme. Jostling for status is exactly what Chinese culture is oriented to do, and individual's results come with some pretty large levels of distinction depending on how successful they were. Especially relative to the US where most people believe that most people are more or less equal on some level or other. You can really shower the abuse down on lower people, and in fact would be nearly expected to do so.

wageslave23

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2025, 08:13:45 PM »
Whenever I look at these numbers I am reminded you can't out-earn your spending desires if you are a spendy person.

I know so many people who out-earn the median income by a staggering amount, yet are unable to get ahead, prepare for tomorrow, etc.  Forget FIRE, these folks will be lucky to retire ever.

So much of it is recognizing value doesn't come from material possessions and prioritizing your life accordingly...
I look at these numbers and realize my household has been "median" our whole adult lives.

And yet here we are as millionaires in our 40s, homeowners with $80k left on a 3.25% 15 year mortgage, with one of us dialed back to a part-time job to spend more time with the kids.

The difference in outcomes has something to do with the way we live in a smaller house with a 15 minute commute, without HOA dues, drive 13 year old Japanese subcompact cars, clip coupons, minimize subscriptions and telecom bills to the extent reasonable, wear unfashionable clothes, exercise, DIY our home remod and car maintenance work, never use door dash, and never shop for fun. The difference went into 401k's, which lowered our tax bill to almost nothing for years, and Roths. 

Basically, achieving the "American Dream(r)" meant NOT living like most Americans. It meant sedans instead of SUVs, cooking from scratch instead of using the drive-thru, giving up on conspicuous/competitive consumption, using old low-end electronics, LCOL instead of MCOL or HCOL, and having more practical skills than just those required to earn a living in some narrow field of work. It involves hanging gutters one day, changing the car's transmission fluid the next day, inventing a new Pad Thai recipe that night, and reinstalling an operating system the day after that. It meant living counter-culturally.

So I'd suggest anyone struggling at the median should consider whether they are conforming too much with what "everyone" else is doing.

Amen. Sometimes it sickens me to see all of the "fat" in everyone's lives, even the "poor", so much that I wish another depression would take place so that it would force people to cut the materialism and status symbols and excessive leisure and comfort spending.  Even though I know it would affect me personally too. We as a society need a reset. The middle class should be vomiting because of how sickly indulgent their lifestyles are. Having visited the poorest of the poor in Mozambique, I have very little sympathy for anyone living in a developed country regardless of income or class. All of my friends and family consider me frugal, but I would say compared to the rest of the world and especially past civilizations my lifestyle is royalty level decadent.  All that to say it's refreshing to hear someone living the lifestyle I wish everyone in the US strived for.

twinstudy

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2025, 09:12:50 PM »

My point is that it's *becoming* necessary. Kids from less than stellar backgrounds find it harder and harder to "break through," regardless of how hard-working and talented they may be.

While the kids with both talents and advantages will always tend to rise to the top, there ought to also be enough wiggle-room for those with talents but no parental advantage to still have a shot as well. That's how socieconomic mobility works.

But with arbitrary degree requirements and other forms of gatekeeping in the name of "merit", it's becoming less and less feasible for someone on the outside to work their way in.

If you are hard working and very gifted, but from a poor background, what (other than access to gifted and talented programs, which we all agree is a necessity) is holding you back from breaking through? You don't need parental advantage to get scholarships, and indeed a lot of scholarships are rightly aimed at those from low SES backgrounds.

If the solution is for more blind-interviewing and an emphasis on tests of IQ/aptitude that can't be "studied for", then I'm for that as well.

But I disagree that degree requirements are arbitrary. If nothing else, getting good marks in a very difficult degree proves academic pedigree. It also doesn't cost anything. I'm reminded that, for example, if your parents earn <$150k then it costs nothing to go to Stanford. Not every college does this, but it's a great step in the right direction and it's as it should be.

As for 'networking' or class-based gatekeeping, it's pretty easy for a child of poor parents to learn the habits and milieu of the rich. I did it, and I had the extra disadvantage of having to learn English language/Anglo culture as well.

Log

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2025, 09:20:43 PM »
I’m not surprised that a young woman with no kids, car or partner in rent-controlled NYC can make 6 figures (entry-level publishing/marketing job), buy fashion (it’s cheap in NYC), eat well (food can be cheap too there) and travel the world.

Rent control doesn't do anything for young people - it only represents savings for long-time incumbents. (In fact, rent control is a contributing factor to why the rents are eye-wateringly unaffordable for young people. If you're the landlord of a rent-controlled apartment, you actually have the most incentive to start the rent as high as possible, since future increases are capped.)

Entry-level publishing jobs do not pay six-figures. Food is certainly more expensive in New York than in most other places in the country, and while you can order clothes online for the same price as anywhere else, they're certainly not cheaper than in other places.

As a parent of a 24-year-old making six figures at an entry-level, no college degree, job in a HCOL area and making rent — without my financial support — I beg to differ.

I'm not disputing that making it in a HCOL city is possible or attainable. I've been fully armed with my own optimism gun since first reading this blog, and I'm doing it myself here in SF.

I'm just saying that NYC is in its own league of unaffordability even compared to other HCOL cities, and publishing in NYC is particularly notorious for underpaying people who romanticize the industry.

There are an abundance of better-paying jobs available in NYC, and through some combination of living with roommates, not traveling too much, making budget-conscious food choices, and/or not buying a lot of extra consumer goods, it's totally possible for a young person from a middle class background to build a beautiful life for themself in NYC and even be saving for retirement. I was just specifically talking about the kind of lifestyle that is undeniably bank-rolled by parental subsidy.

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2025, 10:03:38 PM »
Incomes are very regional. When I made 60k in Iowa that felt better than 75k in Colorado.

Log

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2025, 10:08:15 AM »
Incomes are very regional. When I made 60k in Iowa that felt better than 75k in Colorado.

Yeah, I was just messaging with my friend about the new 1bed apartment I might be about to sign a lease on, and she messaged back about the 5bed house she's about to buy in a nice midwestern city. Our incomes are not that different, although she started earning that much a couple years sooner than I did.

roomtempmayo

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2025, 10:56:02 AM »
Once you get past a single degree, returns tend to drop off precipitously (and sometimes go negative). 

Not true, at least in the US.

See here for the 2023 household incomes by educational attainment of the "householder"/head of household: https://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-education/

Every degree makes significantly more than the one before it, ranging from $20k to $65k/yr.

If we overlook Associates degrees, the biggest jump is indeed from HS to Bachelors (55,810 to 117,600), but even Masters to a professional degree or doctorate is large (136k to 170/172k).

Add in all the tuition and opportunity costs in the world and they're not going to make any of those degree levels categorically a negative return.  The MAs are probably the lowest ROI, but an extra 20k/year over a 30 year career is still an extra $600k in lifetime earnings.

wageslave23

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2025, 12:01:11 PM »
Once you get past a single degree, returns tend to drop off precipitously (and sometimes go negative). 

Not true, at least in the US.

See here for the 2023 household incomes by educational attainment of the "householder"/head of household: https://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-education/

Every degree makes significantly more than the one before it, ranging from $20k to $65k/yr.

If we overlook Associates degrees, the biggest jump is indeed from HS to Bachelors (55,810 to 117,600), but even Masters to a professional degree or doctorate is large (136k to 170/172k).

Add in all the tuition and opportunity costs in the world and they're not going to make any of those degree levels categorically a negative return.  The MAs are probably the lowest ROI, but an extra 20k/year over a 30 year career is still an extra $600k in lifetime earnings.

That's correlation not causation.  Households with bachelor's degree holders are on average more intelligent and goal oriented, that's why they earn more not because they have a piece of paper.  So we'll never really know unless we do twin studies where one twin is randomly assigned to go into the trades or sales and the other must get a bachelor's degree.  The people that I know that were smart enough to go to college but didn't are killing it in the trades and sales. It's like an adult working with a bunch of children, they quickly rise to the top.

roomtempmayo

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2025, 12:15:04 PM »
  So we'll never really know unless we do twin studies where one twin is randomly assigned to go into the trades or sales and the other must get a bachelor's degree. 

If everything except a twin study is just correlation to you, I don't think statistics in any form or at any level of confidence are going to tell you much.  You've basically written off all forms of statistical inference.

wantstoinvest

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2025, 12:44:24 PM »
I mean I have a theory that everyone (in the Us at least) is rich. I just see people living lives that I know I would have trouble living at my age and especially when I was younger. I know it's not the reality but seeing numbers like this make me believe that people are making pretty good money. I just don't know how they keep doing it!

wageslave23

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2025, 01:06:53 PM »
  So we'll never really know unless we do twin studies where one twin is randomly assigned to go into the trades or sales and the other must get a bachelor's degree. 

If everything except a twin study is just correlation to you, I don't think statistics in any form or at any level of confidence are going to tell you much.  You've basically written off all forms of statistical inference.

I'm saying that quoting average incomes means nothing.  It means there's a correlation but doesn't say anything about causation.

roomtempmayo

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2025, 01:09:42 PM »

In that environment, it's not so much parents hoarding wealth, as jealously guarding their children's opportunities. But the result is often much the same.
Precisely.

It's also utterly wild to me that by virtual of tax and retirement policy we're about to unleash a tremendous driver of wealth inequality in middle and upper middle class America - by virtue of inherited 401ks. If you were lucky enough to have family who assiduously invested in their retirement, the odds of you inheriting a massive lump sum is very good. If you weren't, tough.

Within the span of two or three generations, my kids will very likely receive an inheritance of a size that was previous relegated to heirs of vast business empires. All from a succession of modest to modestly high earners who saved and invested. The next generation will have far larger intergenerational economic effects than was ever common before.

One of the under-emphasized components of American meritocracy was that it implied a theory of time: if you do x, y, and z, you will somewhat rapidly move within the social structure.

But what's happened over the past few decades especially is that the time horizon has been progressively lengthened by ever-more extensive training pushing the first real paycheck into the future, student loans making the cost of that training borne over a longer period, and house prices leading people to pay 40% of their income on a mortgage, functionally placing financial freedom at the end of a 30 year payment term.  The list could go on, but the meritocratic promise that you'll see social mobility relatively rapidly has mostly been replaced with someday for your typical striving person in the United States.

The widespread and significant inheritances on the horizon (fairly widely reported on under the buzzword The Great Wealth Transfer) threaten to stretch meritocracy's time horizon in new ways, probably beyond what people are willing to tolerate.  The promised payoff becomes that if you save diligently your whole life and never spend it, then your kids won't be totally left behind in a bidding war for scarce goods.  Will people tolerate a justification of inequality that's fundamentally intergenerational?  I doubt it, but I guess the Brits mostly do.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2025, 01:13:33 PM by roomtempmayo »

roomtempmayo

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2025, 01:12:42 PM »
  So we'll never really know unless we do twin studies where one twin is randomly assigned to go into the trades or sales and the other must get a bachelor's degree. 

If everything except a twin study is just correlation to you, I don't think statistics in any form or at any level of confidence are going to tell you much.  You've basically written off all forms of statistical inference.

I'm saying that quoting average incomes means nothing.  It means there's a correlation but doesn't say anything about causation.

When the world of observations is the entirety of United States households and the effect so large, it says a lot about causation.

It doesn't tell you what happened in any given case, it just tells you what the tendencies are.

Fru-Gal

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2025, 01:15:15 PM »
I mean I have a theory that everyone (in the Us at least) is rich. I just see people living lives that I know I would have trouble living at my age and especially when I was younger. I know it's not the reality but seeing numbers like this make me believe that people are making pretty good money. I just don't know how they keep doing it!

I 100% agree. Most of our diseases and environmental harms are caused by AFFLUENZA. We are living lives of excess and programmed to keep doing so by massive brainwashing campaigns.

ChpBstrd

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2025, 08:42:47 AM »

In that environment, it's not so much parents hoarding wealth, as jealously guarding their children's opportunities. But the result is often much the same.
Precisely.

It's also utterly wild to me that by virtual of tax and retirement policy we're about to unleash a tremendous driver of wealth inequality in middle and upper middle class America - by virtue of inherited 401ks. If you were lucky enough to have family who assiduously invested in their retirement, the odds of you inheriting a massive lump sum is very good. If you weren't, tough.

Within the span of two or three generations, my kids will very likely receive an inheritance of a size that was previous relegated to heirs of vast business empires. All from a succession of modest to modestly high earners who saved and invested. The next generation will have far larger intergenerational economic effects than was ever common before.

One of the under-emphasized components of American meritocracy was that it implied a theory of time: if you do x, y, and z, you will somewhat rapidly move within the social structure.

But what's happened over the past few decades especially is that the time horizon has been progressively lengthened by ever-more extensive training pushing the first real paycheck into the future, student loans making the cost of that training borne over a longer period, and house prices leading people to pay 40% of their income on a mortgage, functionally placing financial freedom at the end of a 30 year payment term.  The list could go on, but the meritocratic promise that you'll see social mobility relatively rapidly has mostly been replaced with someday for your typical striving person in the United States.

The widespread and significant inheritances on the horizon (fairly widely reported on under the buzzword The Great Wealth Transfer) threaten to stretch meritocracy's time horizon in new ways, probably beyond what people are willing to tolerate.  The promised payoff becomes that if you save diligently your whole life and never spend it, then your kids won't be totally left behind in a bidding war for scarce goods.  Will people tolerate a justification of inequality that's fundamentally intergenerational?  I doubt it, but I guess the Brits mostly do.
And then there's the FIRE movement / philosophy.

In this paradigm, you get rich by NOT doing the things everyone else is doing - going into credit card debt, driving $50k cars, striving for a McMansion with a high HOA fee, eating from drive-thrus, commuting long distances by car, etc. Instead, you save half your income, live well below "your means", practice health enhancing behaviors and diets, and invest aggressively. The details may vary by generation, but the theme is the same. It's conscious non-conformity with the national religion of consumerism that makes us rich, not necessarily hard work or merit.

Instead of fighting one's whole life to bid up the price of scarce goods, we become the owners of the scarce goods stores.

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2025, 02:58:00 PM »
Incomes are very regional. When I made 60k in Iowa that felt better than 75k in Colorado.

Yeah, I was just messaging with my friend about the new 1bed apartment I might be about to sign a lease on, and she messaged back about the 5bed house she's about to buy in a nice midwestern city. Our incomes are not that different, although she started earning that much a couple years sooner than I did.
I have looked at how much similar positions to mine would pay in the midwest and it's a pretty hefty dip, but then again the cost of living is lower. I really feel like the housing is the big one there. My gas and groceries budget hasn't changed substantially, considering inflation, but my housing costs have certainly gone up.

GuitarStv

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2025, 06:38:46 PM »
Once you get past a single degree, returns tend to drop off precipitously (and sometimes go negative). 

Not true, at least in the US.

See here for the 2023 household incomes by educational attainment of the "householder"/head of household: https://www.statista.com/statistics/233301/median-household-income-in-the-united-states-by-education/

Every degree makes significantly more than the one before it, ranging from $20k to $65k/yr.

If we overlook Associates degrees, the biggest jump is indeed from HS to Bachelors (55,810 to 117,600), but even Masters to a professional degree or doctorate is large (136k to 170/172k).

Add in all the tuition and opportunity costs in the world and they're not going to make any of those degree levels categorically a negative return.  The MAs are probably the lowest ROI, but an extra 20k/year over a 30 year career is still an extra $600k in lifetime earnings.

That's correlation not causation.  Households with bachelor's degree holders are on average more intelligent and goal oriented, that's why they earn more not because they have a piece of paper.  So we'll never really know unless we do twin studies where one twin is randomly assigned to go into the trades or sales and the other must get a bachelor's degree.  The people that I know that were smart enough to go to college but didn't are killing it in the trades and sales. It's like an adult working with a bunch of children, they quickly rise to the top.

My experience is limited to a small pool of (mostly) engineers.  But of the nine friends I've got who went on to do their masters, I don't think any of them make more than the guys who just got their bachelor's and immediately went into their field.  Losing those early couple years of earning coupled with the debt incurred is a significant hole to dig out of.  In engineering at least, a master's degree isn't commonly sought out or all that highly prized with many types of employment.

dcheesi

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2025, 05:55:46 AM »

In that environment, it's not so much parents hoarding wealth, as jealously guarding their children's opportunities. But the result is often much the same.
Precisely.

It's also utterly wild to me that by virtual of tax and retirement policy we're about to unleash a tremendous driver of wealth inequality in middle and upper middle class America - by virtue of inherited 401ks. If you were lucky enough to have family who assiduously invested in their retirement, the odds of you inheriting a massive lump sum is very good. If you weren't, tough.

Within the span of two or three generations, my kids will very likely receive an inheritance of a size that was previous relegated to heirs of vast business empires. All from a succession of modest to modestly high earners who saved and invested. The next generation will have far larger intergenerational economic effects than was ever common before.

One of the under-emphasized components of American meritocracy was that it implied a theory of time: if you do x, y, and z, you will somewhat rapidly move within the social structure.

But what's happened over the past few decades especially is that the time horizon has been progressively lengthened by ever-more extensive training pushing the first real paycheck into the future, student loans making the cost of that training borne over a longer period, and house prices leading people to pay 40% of their income on a mortgage, functionally placing financial freedom at the end of a 30 year payment term.  The list could go on, but the meritocratic promise that you'll see social mobility relatively rapidly has mostly been replaced with someday for your typical striving person in the United States.

The widespread and significant inheritances on the horizon (fairly widely reported on under the buzzword The Great Wealth Transfer) threaten to stretch meritocracy's time horizon in new ways, probably beyond what people are willing to tolerate.  The promised payoff becomes that if you save diligently your whole life and never spend it, then your kids won't be totally left behind in a bidding war for scarce goods.  Will people tolerate a justification of inequality that's fundamentally intergenerational?  I doubt it, but I guess the Brits mostly do.
And then there's the FIRE movement / philosophy.

In this paradigm, you get rich by NOT doing the things everyone else is doing - going into credit card debt, driving $50k cars, striving for a McMansion with a high HOA fee, eating from drive-thrus, commuting long distances by car, etc. Instead, you save half your income, live well below "your means", practice health enhancing behaviors and diets, and invest aggressively. The details may vary by generation, but the theme is the same. It's conscious non-conformity with the national religion of consumerism that makes us rich, not necessarily hard work or merit.

Instead of fighting one's whole life to bid up the price of scarce goods, we become the owners of the scarce goods stores.
True, and it has been working for most of us up to now. But what happens when even that isn't enough?

People already scoff at the simplistic "give up lattes and avocado toast, and you'll be rich!" advice clichés. Not because lattes and fancy toast from restaurants aren't frivolous expenses, but because the difference in spending they represent is a drop in the bucket compared to increases in the cost of housing and other necessary expenses these days.

A young person starting out today may do everything right/mustachian and still struggle to get ahead. And unless something changes, it's only going to get worse.

wageslave23

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2025, 06:02:38 AM »

In that environment, it's not so much parents hoarding wealth, as jealously guarding their children's opportunities. But the result is often much the same.
Precisely.

It's also utterly wild to me that by virtual of tax and retirement policy we're about to unleash a tremendous driver of wealth inequality in middle and upper middle class America - by virtue of inherited 401ks. If you were lucky enough to have family who assiduously invested in their retirement, the odds of you inheriting a massive lump sum is very good. If you weren't, tough.

Within the span of two or three generations, my kids will very likely receive an inheritance of a size that was previous relegated to heirs of vast business empires. All from a succession of modest to modestly high earners who saved and invested. The next generation will have far larger intergenerational economic effects than was ever common before.

One of the under-emphasized components of American meritocracy was that it implied a theory of time: if you do x, y, and z, you will somewhat rapidly move within the social structure.

But what's happened over the past few decades especially is that the time horizon has been progressively lengthened by ever-more extensive training pushing the first real paycheck into the future, student loans making the cost of that training borne over a longer period, and house prices leading people to pay 40% of their income on a mortgage, functionally placing financial freedom at the end of a 30 year payment term.  The list could go on, but the meritocratic promise that you'll see social mobility relatively rapidly has mostly been replaced with someday for your typical striving person in the United States.

The widespread and significant inheritances on the horizon (fairly widely reported on under the buzzword The Great Wealth Transfer) threaten to stretch meritocracy's time horizon in new ways, probably beyond what people are willing to tolerate.  The promised payoff becomes that if you save diligently your whole life and never spend it, then your kids won't be totally left behind in a bidding war for scarce goods.  Will people tolerate a justification of inequality that's fundamentally intergenerational?  I doubt it, but I guess the Brits mostly do.
And then there's the FIRE movement / philosophy.

In this paradigm, you get rich by NOT doing the things everyone else is doing - going into credit card debt, driving $50k cars, striving for a McMansion with a high HOA fee, eating from drive-thrus, commuting long distances by car, etc. Instead, you save half your income, live well below "your means", practice health enhancing behaviors and diets, and invest aggressively. The details may vary by generation, but the theme is the same. It's conscious non-conformity with the national religion of consumerism that makes us rich, not necessarily hard work or merit.

Instead of fighting one's whole life to bid up the price of scarce goods, we become the owners of the scarce goods stores.
True, and it has been working for most of us up to now. But what happens when even that isn't enough?

People already scoff at the simplistic "give up lattes and avocado toast, and you'll be rich!" advice clichés. Not because lattes and fancy toast from restaurants aren't frivolous expenses, but because the difference in spending they represent is a drop in the bucket compared to increases in the cost of housing and other necessary expenses these days.

A young person starting out today may do everything right/mustachian and still struggle to get ahead. And unless something cqhanges, it's only going to get worse.

Wages have kept up with inflation.  They will be fine. My advice to someone just starting out: buy as small of a house you need, one that needs sweat equity. Then when the housing bubble pops, buy 3 or 4 more. That's what I did when I graduated from college during the great recession.

dcheesi

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2025, 07:38:11 AM »

In that environment, it's not so much parents hoarding wealth, as jealously guarding their children's opportunities. But the result is often much the same.
Precisely.

It's also utterly wild to me that by virtual of tax and retirement policy we're about to unleash a tremendous driver of wealth inequality in middle and upper middle class America - by virtue of inherited 401ks. If you were lucky enough to have family who assiduously invested in their retirement, the odds of you inheriting a massive lump sum is very good. If you weren't, tough.

Within the span of two or three generations, my kids will very likely receive an inheritance of a size that was previous relegated to heirs of vast business empires. All from a succession of modest to modestly high earners who saved and invested. The next generation will have far larger intergenerational economic effects than was ever common before.

One of the under-emphasized components of American meritocracy was that it implied a theory of time: if you do x, y, and z, you will somewhat rapidly move within the social structure.

But what's happened over the past few decades especially is that the time horizon has been progressively lengthened by ever-more extensive training pushing the first real paycheck into the future, student loans making the cost of that training borne over a longer period, and house prices leading people to pay 40% of their income on a mortgage, functionally placing financial freedom at the end of a 30 year payment term.  The list could go on, but the meritocratic promise that you'll see social mobility relatively rapidly has mostly been replaced with someday for your typical striving person in the United States.

The widespread and significant inheritances on the horizon (fairly widely reported on under the buzzword The Great Wealth Transfer) threaten to stretch meritocracy's time horizon in new ways, probably beyond what people are willing to tolerate.  The promised payoff becomes that if you save diligently your whole life and never spend it, then your kids won't be totally left behind in a bidding war for scarce goods.  Will people tolerate a justification of inequality that's fundamentally intergenerational?  I doubt it, but I guess the Brits mostly do.
And then there's the FIRE movement / philosophy.

In this paradigm, you get rich by NOT doing the things everyone else is doing - going into credit card debt, driving $50k cars, striving for a McMansion with a high HOA fee, eating from drive-thrus, commuting long distances by car, etc. Instead, you save half your income, live well below "your means", practice health enhancing behaviors and diets, and invest aggressively. The details may vary by generation, but the theme is the same. It's conscious non-conformity with the national religion of consumerism that makes us rich, not necessarily hard work or merit.

Instead of fighting one's whole life to bid up the price of scarce goods, we become the owners of the scarce goods stores.
True, and it has been working for most of us up to now. But what happens when even that isn't enough?

People already scoff at the simplistic "give up lattes and avocado toast, and you'll be rich!" advice clichés. Not because lattes and fancy toast from restaurants aren't frivolous expenses, but because the difference in spending they represent is a drop in the bucket compared to increases in the cost of housing and other necessary expenses these days.

A young person starting out today may do everything right/mustachian and still struggle to get ahead. And unless something cqhanges, it's only going to get worse.

Wages have kept up with inflation.  They will be fine. My advice to someone just starting out: buy as small of a house you need, one that needs sweat equity. Then when the housing bubble pops, buy 3 or 4 more. That's what I did when I graduated from college during the great recession.
"Inflation" numbers don't always reflect the true cost of everything, particularly housing, education, healthcare, and energy. Y'know, all the big items that are actually essential, as opposed to all the crap that we buy just to make ourselves comfortable.

roomtempmayo

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2025, 09:16:41 AM »

In that environment, it's not so much parents hoarding wealth, as jealously guarding their children's opportunities. But the result is often much the same.
Precisely.

It's also utterly wild to me that by virtual of tax and retirement policy we're about to unleash a tremendous driver of wealth inequality in middle and upper middle class America - by virtue of inherited 401ks. If you were lucky enough to have family who assiduously invested in their retirement, the odds of you inheriting a massive lump sum is very good. If you weren't, tough.

Within the span of two or three generations, my kids will very likely receive an inheritance of a size that was previous relegated to heirs of vast business empires. All from a succession of modest to modestly high earners who saved and invested. The next generation will have far larger intergenerational economic effects than was ever common before.

One of the under-emphasized components of American meritocracy was that it implied a theory of time: if you do x, y, and z, you will somewhat rapidly move within the social structure.

But what's happened over the past few decades especially is that the time horizon has been progressively lengthened by ever-more extensive training pushing the first real paycheck into the future, student loans making the cost of that training borne over a longer period, and house prices leading people to pay 40% of their income on a mortgage, functionally placing financial freedom at the end of a 30 year payment term.  The list could go on, but the meritocratic promise that you'll see social mobility relatively rapidly has mostly been replaced with someday for your typical striving person in the United States.

The widespread and significant inheritances on the horizon (fairly widely reported on under the buzzword The Great Wealth Transfer) threaten to stretch meritocracy's time horizon in new ways, probably beyond what people are willing to tolerate.  The promised payoff becomes that if you save diligently your whole life and never spend it, then your kids won't be totally left behind in a bidding war for scarce goods.  Will people tolerate a justification of inequality that's fundamentally intergenerational?  I doubt it, but I guess the Brits mostly do.
And then there's the FIRE movement / philosophy.

In this paradigm, you get rich by NOT doing the things everyone else is doing - going into credit card debt, driving $50k cars, striving for a McMansion with a high HOA fee, eating from drive-thrus, commuting long distances by car, etc. Instead, you save half your income, live well below "your means", practice health enhancing behaviors and diets, and invest aggressively. The details may vary by generation, but the theme is the same. It's conscious non-conformity with the national religion of consumerism that makes us rich, not necessarily hard work or merit.

Instead of fighting one's whole life to bid up the price of scarce goods, we become the owners of the scarce goods stores.

Sure, but that doesn't really address the underlying issues of perceived fairness.  By frugal standards, we're going to see a pretty sizable portion of the United States population (20%?; just guessing) who are or could be FI due to no work, skill, or merit of their own, but rather strictly through inheritance.  Certainly there have always been "trust fund babies," but they were pretty rare.  How will the typical working schmo, or even a very frugal early retiree, feel if there are now three of them on their block, who maybe never even worked or saved?

So far, we've regarded people who are born into so much money that they essentially never have to work as such outliers that they don't really challenge our systemic fairness.  But what if they become widespread?  That does seem like it presents something of a systemic challenge.

ChpBstrd

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2025, 09:20:41 AM »

In that environment, it's not so much parents hoarding wealth, as jealously guarding their children's opportunities. But the result is often much the same.
Precisely.

It's also utterly wild to me that by virtual of tax and retirement policy we're about to unleash a tremendous driver of wealth inequality in middle and upper middle class America - by virtue of inherited 401ks. If you were lucky enough to have family who assiduously invested in their retirement, the odds of you inheriting a massive lump sum is very good. If you weren't, tough.

Within the span of two or three generations, my kids will very likely receive an inheritance of a size that was previous relegated to heirs of vast business empires. All from a succession of modest to modestly high earners who saved and invested. The next generation will have far larger intergenerational economic effects than was ever common before.

One of the under-emphasized components of American meritocracy was that it implied a theory of time: if you do x, y, and z, you will somewhat rapidly move within the social structure.

But what's happened over the past few decades especially is that the time horizon has been progressively lengthened by ever-more extensive training pushing the first real paycheck into the future, student loans making the cost of that training borne over a longer period, and house prices leading people to pay 40% of their income on a mortgage, functionally placing financial freedom at the end of a 30 year payment term.  The list could go on, but the meritocratic promise that you'll see social mobility relatively rapidly has mostly been replaced with someday for your typical striving person in the United States.

The widespread and significant inheritances on the horizon (fairly widely reported on under the buzzword The Great Wealth Transfer) threaten to stretch meritocracy's time horizon in new ways, probably beyond what people are willing to tolerate.  The promised payoff becomes that if you save diligently your whole life and never spend it, then your kids won't be totally left behind in a bidding war for scarce goods.  Will people tolerate a justification of inequality that's fundamentally intergenerational?  I doubt it, but I guess the Brits mostly do.
And then there's the FIRE movement / philosophy.

In this paradigm, you get rich by NOT doing the things everyone else is doing - going into credit card debt, driving $50k cars, striving for a McMansion with a high HOA fee, eating from drive-thrus, commuting long distances by car, etc. Instead, you save half your income, live well below "your means", practice health enhancing behaviors and diets, and invest aggressively. The details may vary by generation, but the theme is the same. It's conscious non-conformity with the national religion of consumerism that makes us rich, not necessarily hard work or merit.

Instead of fighting one's whole life to bid up the price of scarce goods, we become the owners of the scarce goods stores.
True, and it has been working for most of us up to now. But what happens when even that isn't enough?

People already scoff at the simplistic "give up lattes and avocado toast, and you'll be rich!" advice clichés. Not because lattes and fancy toast from restaurants aren't frivolous expenses, but because the difference in spending they represent is a drop in the bucket compared to increases in the cost of housing and other necessary expenses these days.

A young person starting out today may do everything right/mustachian and still struggle to get ahead. And unless something cqhanges, it's only going to get worse.

Wages have kept up with inflation.  They will be fine. My advice to someone just starting out: buy as small of a house you need, one that needs sweat equity. Then when the housing bubble pops, buy 3 or 4 more. That's what I did when I graduated from college during the great recession.
"Inflation" numbers don't always reflect the true cost of everything, particularly housing, education, healthcare, and energy. Y'know, all the big items that are actually essential, as opposed to all the crap that we buy just to make ourselves comfortable.
This is why I wrote "the details will vary by generation". Home ownership is not the slam-dunk decision it was in 1990 or 2000 when it was far cheaper to own a home than to rent it. That was the era a lot of our financial advice, mantras, and intuitions come from.

Now we're in a strange environment where it often costs less to rent than it does to own. Plus, renting gives young people the flexibility to pursue job opportunities instead of being geographically pinned down, and tends to reduce spending on things like the lawn and garden, remods, and excess junk. Finally, today's high prices force young homeowners to be "house-poor" due to the large amount of capital needed to secure the purchase.

As one source notes, "After adjusting for inflation, home sales prices increased 102.8% faster than rent prices over a 54-year period."

So, yea. I'd advise a young person or a young family to rent right now instead of buying, if that's the most cost efficient way to live in their particular context. Times are different than in your parents' generation! The rules of success outlined in The Millionaire Next Door (1996) have changed over the past 30 years.

The same could be said for college education. Slowly, over time, jobs not requiring a college degree like truck drivers, electricians, pilots, mechanics, and heavy equipment operators have started to pay as much or more than many jobs requiring a college degree. Furthermore, as the cost of higher education has risen (i.e. government subsidization has decreased), graduates often end up with five and six-figure debts, which can bring their net take-home pay to a lower level than say, a lineman, sheet metal fabricator, soldier, or railroad worker. So depending on what you want to do and your specific talents, college is not the sure-fire path to success it used to be. And if you just dart-throw for a major, you'll likely end up worse off than the UPS delivery person.

Healthcare costs may seem inescapable, but most of these costs are related to the Standard American Diet (SAD), the standard lifestyle of car-reliance, minimal exercise, and hours per day spent being entertained by screens. I'll bundle this into the "Standard Lifestyle". For most people not suffering from a chronic disability or genetic/developmental condition, the choice to live differently will mitigate healthcare costs until they reach old age. As the cost of living the Standard Lifestyle increases, it only makes more and more sense to eat more veggies, walk and bike more, and to stay off the couch. Either behave differently than the crowd, or end up broke and dead.

GilesMM

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2025, 10:09:43 AM »

This is why I wrote "the details will vary by generation". Home ownership is not the slam-dunk decision it was in 1990 or 2000 when it was far cheaper to own a home than to rent it. That was the era a lot of our financial advice, mantras, and intuitions come from.

Now we're in a strange environment where it often costs less to rent than it does to own. Plus, renting gives young people the flexibility to pursue job opportunities instead of being geographically pinned down, and tends to reduce spending on things like the lawn and garden, remods, and excess junk. Finally, today's high prices force young homeowners to be "house-poor" due to the large amount of capital needed to secure the purchase.

As one source notes, "After adjusting for inflation, home sales prices increased 102.8% faster than rent prices over a 54-year period."

So, yea. I'd advise a young person or a young family to rent right now instead of buying, if that's the most cost efficient way to live in their particular context. Times are different than in your parents' generation! The rules of success outlined in The Millionaire Next Door (1996) have changed over the past 30 years.

...


Home ownership does not need to be viewed strictly as a financial or investment decision.  Owning gives one a lot of control over one's life which is worth a lot to people who grow tired of the uncertainties and restrictions of rental life.   As an investment, 20% down gives 5 to 1 leverage on the investment which is pretty hard to beat.  Mortgages are inflation-proof  (and can even deflate if rates ever drop again) while rent is not. 

twinstudy

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2025, 11:05:05 AM »
My experience is limited to a small pool of (mostly) engineers.  But of the nine friends I've got who went on to do their masters, I don't think any of them make more than the guys who just got their bachelor's and immediately went into their field.  Losing those early couple years of earning coupled with the debt incurred is a significant hole to dig out of.  In engineering at least, a master's degree isn't commonly sought out or all that highly prized with many types of employment.

My experience in law is the same. After getting your qualifying degree (JD/LLB) there is minimal advantage in most fields to be derived from an LLM. To the extent it confers any advantage at all, the time and cost associated with the extra study could be better used just cutting your teeth on cases - and making money while doing so.


People already scoff at the simplistic "give up lattes and avocado toast, and you'll be rich!" advice clichés. Not because lattes and fancy toast from restaurants aren't frivolous expenses, but because the difference in spending they represent is a drop in the bucket compared to increases in the cost of housing and other necessary expenses these days.

A young person starting out today may do everything right/mustachian and still struggle to get ahead. And unless something changes, it's only going to get worse.

People who scoff at 'Give up lattes and avocado toast' don't understand that the real message is to use some discipline and in particular to defer gratification (when appropriate). That doesn't have to involve abstention from yummy things like avocado toast. It might be the discipline needed to go to the library and study every day as a student, or the discipline to work two jobs as a young person while your health allows, or the discipline to trim some fat from your budget by avoiding lifestyle creep you don't really need. When I was a kid I learned frugality and I learned to take a long-term view of goals and desires, so that now I don't even have to be frugal and I can still save 70% of my income - though most of the time, I am still frugal, by habit and by choice. I bet most of us are the same. That's the discipline we're talking about. It has nothing to do with avocado toast, and I suggest that the people taking it literally are either stupid or disingenuous.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2025, 11:10:43 AM by twinstudy »

ChpBstrd

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2025, 02:41:36 PM »
This is why I wrote "the details will vary by generation". Home ownership is not the slam-dunk decision it was in 1990 or 2000 when it was far cheaper to own a home than to rent it. That was the era a lot of our financial advice, mantras, and intuitions come from.

Now we're in a strange environment where it often costs less to rent than it does to own. Plus, renting gives young people the flexibility to pursue job opportunities instead of being geographically pinned down, and tends to reduce spending on things like the lawn and garden, remods, and excess junk. Finally, today's high prices force young homeowners to be "house-poor" due to the large amount of capital needed to secure the purchase.

As one source notes, "After adjusting for inflation, home sales prices increased 102.8% faster than rent prices over a 54-year period."

So, yea. I'd advise a young person or a young family to rent right now instead of buying, if that's the most cost efficient way to live in their particular context. Times are different than in your parents' generation! The rules of success outlined in The Millionaire Next Door (1996) have changed over the past 30 years.

...
Home ownership does not need to be viewed strictly as a financial or investment decision.  Owning gives one a lot of control over one's life which is worth a lot to people who grow tired of the uncertainties and restrictions of rental life.   As an investment, 20% down gives 5 to 1 leverage on the investment which is pretty hard to beat.  Mortgages are inflation-proof  (and can even deflate if rates ever drop again) while rent is not.
In terms of control over one's life - being pinned down to one neighborhood has its own downsides. Renters can move closer to work at the end of their lease, minimizing their commutes. They can also pursue jobs in different areas, as opposed to just one locale. If the neighborhood goes downhill, the local politics are disagreeable, their employer closes down, the person can no longer afford to live in the area, an obnoxious neighbor moves in next door, or one wants to move for family or retirement reasons - the renter is always in a better position. Trading houses you own costs a minimum of $25k per my experience as a homeowner.

A lot of the control over life issues are consumption and customization options like being able to paint the exterior your favorite color, being able to remod, installing new flooring, etc. But the renter's mentality takes all of that off the table in exchange for lower financial commitment and a lower cost of moving. It's a different level of expectation.

The leverage comes with a cost - an interest rate that almost always exceeds the appreciation rate in normal times. In normal times, RE appreciated 2% per year and your mortgage rate was 5-10%, so you were paying several percent in excess of appreciation on the leveraged portion.

Inflation protection is valuable, but it is mostly an attribute of US-style government-subsidized 15 and 30 year mortgages. In the rest of the world, one must re-mortgage one's property every five years or less. That means if inflation pushes interest rates up to XX% you only get a couple of years protection before your housing expense goes up. The difference is borne by the government's losses in years when real estate corrections and high default rates occur, so it's not a free feature. The extended duration of US mortgages represent a valuable subsidy that can reduce the real cost of home ownership, but it also reduces the real cost for landlords. To the extent the lower costs are reflected in lower-than-otherwise rents, slower-than-otherwise rent increases due to inflation, and/or more construction of supply, renters benefit too.


Log

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2025, 10:55:32 AM »
I would say that within my own life, the divide between people who are reasonably optimistic about money and the "impossible to get ahead" people mostly falls along career choice, not spending problems. There's obviously a selection effect there, but most people who've invested in acquiring valuable skills and developed a real career feel like they're going to be fine. Being in SF though, even people in this group are skeptical of ever being able to afford a house.

The people who are really doomery are the ones who work low-skill jobs, or who are struggling to get by in music, who have thus far refused to train/re-train into something more lucrative. The problem that the further along you get in life without acquiring valuable skills, the more psychologically difficult it becomes break out of that rut and admit that what you're doing isn't working. There's this self-justifying loop of "well, if I was going to do it I should have done it sooner, but now since I still haven't done it it's already too late." The more you wait, the less time you have left to benefit from those higher earnings, and the less time you have left for savings to compound.

That's why I've always maintained that the most important insight of the FIRE community is to aggressively kickstart your retirement savings while young. That gives you so much optionality between early retirement, Coast-FI, total career change, or just continuing to work and gradually lifestyle inflating into a real Fat-FI situation.

twinstudy

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2025, 01:32:58 PM »
I would say that within my own life, the divide between people who are reasonably optimistic about money and the "impossible to get ahead" people mostly falls along career choice, not spending problems. There's obviously a selection effect there, but most people who've invested in acquiring valuable skills and developed a real career feel like they're going to be fine. Being in SF though, even people in this group are skeptical of ever being able to afford a house.

The people who are really doomery are the ones who work low-skill jobs, or who are struggling to get by in music, who have thus far refused to train/re-train into something more lucrative. The problem that the further along you get in life without acquiring valuable skills, the more psychologically difficult it becomes break out of that rut and admit that what you're doing isn't working.

I think it often starts with a sense of entitlement - the notion that, regardless of how inept or dumb you are, you should be offered a job as long as you're willing to front up 9-5 and that job should pay not only for the essentials in life (food, shelter) but also for things you want (yummy food, a house of your own). Whereas I was brought up to think that the only guaranteed thing in life is that the government will give you bare bones rations in the form of the dole. Everything else has to be earned.

ChpBstrd

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2025, 03:49:31 PM »
That's why I've always maintained that the most important insight of the FIRE community is to aggressively kickstart your retirement savings while young. That gives you so much optionality between early retirement, Coast-FI, total career change, or just continuing to work and gradually lifestyle inflating into a real Fat-FI situation.
IMO, this is a good reason NOT to get into lifelong education debt and NOT to become house-poor at a young age.

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2025, 09:13:21 PM »
That's why I've always maintained that the most important insight of the FIRE community is to aggressively kickstart your retirement savings while young. That gives you so much optionality between early retirement, Coast-FI, total career change, or just continuing to work and gradually lifestyle inflating into a real Fat-FI situation.
IMO, this is a good reason NOT to get into lifelong education debt and NOT to become house-poor at a young age.
I think I had my come to jesus moment about fire right when I turn 26 and had to start buying my own health insurance at work. I started to really crank the numbers and saw that even if I just maxed out my 401k, roth ira, and HSA I would be so set later in life. Even if I don't fire at a super young age, the dollars that I will contribute in my 20s will give me a great heat start.

Fun fact. I actually started getting my masters in computer engineering and was taking out student loans and the whole deal for it. I hated it so much that I quit it in one semester. Looking back, I am so happy that I did that. I went to work a couple months after leaving school and started earning and contributing. I bet my net worth would be 1/3 of what it is now if I would have stayed in school. The worst part is that I don't even know if I wouldn't have made any more

Fomerly known as something

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2025, 07:24:21 AM »
That's why I've always maintained that the most important insight of the FIRE community is to aggressively kickstart your retirement savings while young. That gives you so much optionality between early retirement, Coast-FI, total career change, or just continuing to work and gradually lifestyle inflating into a real Fat-FI situation.
IMO, this is a good reason NOT to get into lifelong education debt and NOT to become house-poor at a young age.
I think I had my come to jesus moment about fire right when I turn 26 and had to start buying my own health insurance at work. I started to really crank the numbers and saw that even if I just maxed out my 401k, roth ira, and HSA I would be so set later in life. Even if I don't fire at a super young age, the dollars that I will contribute in my 20s will give me a great heat start.

Fun fact. I actually started getting my masters in computer engineering and was taking out student loans and the whole deal for it. I hated it so much that I quit it in one semester. Looking back, I am so happy that I did that. I went to work a couple months after leaving school and started earning and contributing. I bet my net worth would be 1/3 of what it is now if I would have stayed in school. The worst part is that I don't even know if I wouldn't have made any more

I keep saying to new to the workforce coworkers to feed their TSP (fed 401k equivalent).  Yes it’s for retirement but it also allowed me to make a major life change earlier because I was set for retirement in my early 40s with or without that life change.


VanillaGorilla

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2025, 10:32:33 AM »
That's why I've always maintained that the most important insight of the FIRE community is to aggressively kickstart your retirement savings while young. That gives you so much optionality between early retirement, Coast-FI, total career change, or just continuing to work and gradually lifestyle inflating into a real Fat-FI situation.
IMO, this is a good reason NOT to get into lifelong education debt and NOT to become house-poor at a young age.
Within reason.

I finished graduate school in my mid-20s, far younger than most of my colleagues. For a while I beat myself up for spending those five years not earning a salary. Fifteen years of hindsight later, I realize that my degree paid for itself and then some. My first job was at a very science-oriented company that values educational pedigrees, perhaps more than it should, and compensates accordingly. I did fabulously there. Even if I had been forced into student debt it would have been worthwhile.

Then, before ever being exposed to the FIREverse, I bought a house as quickly as possible after starting that job. When I first came across JL Collins I kicked myself, thinking I had made my path to FIRE much harder. Now, in hindsight, that house was one of the best investments I ever made. It cost about three years of (base) salary, I got a sub-3% mortgage rate, and housing prices here have increased by 250%. Even when accounting for all maintenance, upgrades, interest, and taxes, the house has made me a tremendous amount of money. When you include imputed rent it's ridiculous. Friends who did everything identically to me but weren't in a overall life position to buy a house are now paying many times what I did for housing.

There's always nuance. I gave up five years of earning potential but still finished school very young, and I definitely recommend that. My graduate degrees were paid for and even earned me a stipend that I could live off - highly recommended. I bought a house that was quite cheap when the market was very low and mortgages were very cheap, though I didn't understand that either of those things were the case. Also highly recommended.

The devil is in the details. Buying my house today would be very challenging. Going into excessive debt for the same degree if I was ten years older would be potentially ruinous. All good decisions are contingent on a time and place, and can easily become bad decisions under different circumstances.

FIRE is potentially a very poor goal if it convinces people to give up on investing in their careers when appropriate. Sometimes you run into stories where some poor twenty-something year old describes how if they just continue living in a studio apartment with three roommates and working at an Amazon warehouse they'll be FI in just 15 years, which is a terrible goal. They should be focusing on building a career, not their savings rate.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2025, 10:37:30 AM by VanillaGorilla »

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2025, 10:46:08 AM »
That's why I've always maintained that the most important insight of the FIRE community is to aggressively kickstart your retirement savings while young. That gives you so much optionality between early retirement, Coast-FI, total career change, or just continuing to work and gradually lifestyle inflating into a real Fat-FI situation.
IMO, this is a good reason NOT to get into lifelong education debt and NOT to become house-poor at a young age.
I think I had my come to jesus moment about fire right when I turn 26 and had to start buying my own health insurance at work. I started to really crank the numbers and saw that even if I just maxed out my 401k, roth ira, and HSA I would be so set later in life. Even if I don't fire at a super young age, the dollars that I will contribute in my 20s will give me a great heat start.

Fun fact. I actually started getting my masters in computer engineering and was taking out student loans and the whole deal for it. I hated it so much that I quit it in one semester. Looking back, I am so happy that I did that. I went to work a couple months after leaving school and started earning and contributing. I bet my net worth would be 1/3 of what it is now if I would have stayed in school. The worst part is that I don't even know if I wouldn't have made any more

I keep saying to new to the workforce coworkers to feed their TSP (fed 401k equivalent).  Yes it’s for retirement but it also allowed me to make a major life change earlier because I was set for retirement in my early 40s with or without that life change.
Actually someone preached to me the importance of investing in your 401(k) / equivalent account. I told a coworker that I was turning 26 and needed to update my benefits to get on my own health insurance. She then asked well are you going to do an HSA? I say yes I was. She then said go look at how much you are contributing in your 401(k) and then bump it up 5% and play with an investment calculator. That was the start for me. That got the ball rolling in my head. My goal now is to max out my tax advantaged accounts when I am 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30. I think if I can do that for five years I will have a great baseline and be well on my way to a better financial future.

Dave1442397

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2025, 11:45:38 AM »
Actually someone preached to me the importance of investing in your 401(k) / equivalent account. I told a coworker that I was turning 26 and needed to update my benefits to get on my own health insurance. She then asked well are you going to do an HSA? I say yes I was. She then said go look at how much you are contributing in your 401(k) and then bump it up 5% and play with an investment calculator. That was the start for me. That got the ball rolling in my head. My goal now is to max out my tax advantaged accounts when I am 26, 27, 28, 29, and 30. I think if I can do that for five years I will have a great baseline and be well on my way to a better financial future.

Even better, contribute as much as you need to your 401(k) to get the full company match, then max out your HSA before doing anything else. You can invest most or all of the money in your HSA account (some accounts make you keep $1,000 in cash). If you keep all your receipts, but don't claim anything from your HSA account, it's like having a secondary emergency fund. You can claim that money if you really need it, otherwise just leave it invested.

My HSA money is all in VTI, and has gone from $28k to $63k in two years (with roughly $18k of that in contributions, and no claims).

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2025, 03:03:01 PM »
I but the full IRS limit in my 401(k), so I am well exceeding my companies match. I max out my HSA as well as get the $800 contribution from my employer. I also max out my Roth IRA. I also do a little in my brokerage account, but am focusing on chipping at my car and also just trying to enjoy my life in the mean time.

I also never realized just how significant the tax savings from the 401(k) and HSA could be until I got on health insurance read up on all of it.

Dave1442397

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2025, 03:38:58 PM »
I but the full IRS limit in my 401(k), so I am well exceeding my companies match. I max out my HSA as well as get the $800 contribution from my employer. I also max out my Roth IRA. I also do a little in my brokerage account, but am focusing on chipping at my car and also just trying to enjoy my life in the mean time.

I also never realized just how significant the tax savings from the 401(k) and HSA could be until I got on health insurance read up on all of it.

Sounds like you have it all under control!

Yeah, I didn't realize how much the HSA would save on taxes for the first couple of years I had it. I was treating it like an FSA, only putting in enough to cover expenses for the year. Then I did some reading and figured out what I was missing! I have almost $16k in unclaimed expenses now.

kite

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2025, 07:04:14 PM »
I but the full IRS limit in my 401(k), so I am well exceeding my companies match. I max out my HSA as well as get the $800 contribution from my employer. I also max out my Roth IRA. I also do a little in my brokerage account, but am focusing on chipping at my car and also just trying to enjoy my life in the mean time.

I also never realized just how significant the tax savings from the 401(k) and HSA could be until I got on health insurance read up on all of it.

Sounds like you have it all under control!

Yeah, I didn't realize how much the HSA would save on taxes for the first couple of years I had it. I was treating it like an FSA, only putting in enough to cover expenses for the year. Then I did some reading and figured out what I was missing! I have almost $16k in unclaimed expenses now.

I first had an HSA available to me in 2010. I was laid off in October 2008 in the financial implosion. I’d been out of work, with no earned income for the entirety of 2009 and was bummed I couldn’t make a 401k or IRA contribution for that year. So when I went back to work in 2010 and could have an HSA, I decided to superfund that to “make up” for the lost year of investing.
My strategy for HSA was to treat it like my Roth and invest it most aggressively for the highest yield. Our over-all strategy is balanced, but I maintain that balance by having the tax-deferred accounts hold any bond funds. I’ve used the HSA in a pinch, but generally just kept amassing receipts for 15 years.

Our plan was that we’d self-fund any eventual long-term-care with the HSA. As we actually got to retirement, however, I did recently ‘cash in’ old receipts to meet current living expenses to set our taxable income at a more comfortable number. I do anticipate at least $15k in out of pocket health expenses annually for a chronic condition, at least until Medicare kicks in. I’m taking a harder look at the balance in the HSA and reconsidering how high I ought to let it grow. I’m thinking that we’d be better to fund LTC expenses directly from 401k because it would be both deductible and depending on the year, would cover any RMD’s.  For now, there’s a straightforward draw-down strategy on our HSA.

twinstudy

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #87 on: July 13, 2025, 01:49:30 AM »
That's why I've always maintained that the most important insight of the FIRE community is to aggressively kickstart your retirement savings while young. That gives you so much optionality between early retirement, Coast-FI, total career change, or just continuing to work and gradually lifestyle inflating into a real Fat-FI situation.
IMO, this is a good reason NOT to get into lifelong education debt and NOT to become house-poor at a young age.
Within reason.

Yeah, I think it's important to remember that the highest paying jobs - medicine, law, finance, quant, software engineering, management consulting - all require a university degree. Anywhere between 3 to 6 years of study. The student debt is often manageable particularly if you go to a college that waives tuition for families that don't earn a certain amount, or if you get a part- or full-scholarship. The time investment is costly, but may pay off down the road with your earnings. I think it's often said that higher earners also tend to have higher expenses but this simply doesn't have to be the case. I think my expenses in 2025 are only 2x what my expenses were in 2011 which is a minimal change after inflation and still well within what the median earner could afford, despite my wage going up considerably since I graduated from uni.

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2025, 09:35:12 AM »
I but the full IRS limit in my 401(k), so I am well exceeding my companies match. I max out my HSA as well as get the $800 contribution from my employer. I also max out my Roth IRA. I also do a little in my brokerage account, but am focusing on chipping at my car and also just trying to enjoy my life in the mean time.

I also never realized just how significant the tax savings from the 401(k) and HSA could be until I got on health insurance read up on all of it.

Sounds like you have it all under control!

Yeah, I didn't realize how much the HSA would save on taxes for the first couple of years I had it. I was treating it like an FSA, only putting in enough to cover expenses for the year. Then I did some reading and figured out what I was missing! I have almost $16k in unclaimed expenses now.
I am by no means a tax or finance professional, but just putting the max in my 401(k) and HSA saves me a pretty penny on taxes. My advisor said the idea is I get a tax break now and will pay a lower tax rate in retirement, so for 401(k) and HSA it makes sense. He says the Roth IRA is good for the post tax bucket.

I do struggle with the idea of whether to nuke my car loan or stay the course. I look back over the last six months, you can go see the 10k to 100k thread, and I have grown my investments by more than the value of the car. I think it is an emotional battle. I will check back in at the end of the year and evaluate on that front.

Dave1442397

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2025, 12:45:27 PM »
I do struggle with the idea of whether to nuke my car loan or stay the course. I look back over the last six months, you can go see the 10k to 100k thread, and I have grown my investments by more than the value of the car. I think it is an emotional battle. I will check back in at the end of the year and evaluate on that front.

We have a 72-month loan on my wife's car (Toyota Venza bought in 2021 when MSRP was a good deal) but it's a 1.9% zero-down loan through Toyota. I'm not paying it off early because I make more than 1.9% just keeping the money in SPAAX.

I paid cash for my daughter's car last month (2015 Honda Fit) because rates have gone up and it made more sense to pay cash than finance.

I try to always go for logic over emotions when it comes to paying things off, but it sure does feel good to just pay cash.

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2025, 07:12:23 PM »
The tricky thing is my loan is 5.0% APR. So, not bad by any means, but it's just high enough where it bugs me. Alas, it was an 18k loan so the interest is fine on it and I am chunking extra at it. It just kills me, because I know that car depreciate badly.

I think I will look at my whole financial picture at the end of the year and then decide what to do about the car.

roomtempmayo

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2025, 11:11:23 AM »
For those who are saving up HSA-eligible receipts to pull the money at some future date, do you worry at all about inviting an audit. 

As long as all your receipts are in order, of course you'd be fine from a tax perspective.  But I'd much rather never find myself sitting across from an IRS agent.

My current HSA's reimbursements are entirely an honor system, which seems like the sort of thing that might get tightened up in the future.

Dave1442397

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2025, 11:31:18 AM »
For those who are saving up HSA-eligible receipts to pull the money at some future date, do you worry at all about inviting an audit. 

As long as all your receipts are in order, of course you'd be fine from a tax perspective.  But I'd much rather never find myself sitting across from an IRS agent.

My current HSA's reimbursements are entirely an honor system, which seems like the sort of thing that might get tightened up in the future.

I used to scan and upload every receipt to my HSA account on the provider's website, but then my company switched providers and all that data was lost. Now I just keep a scan of every receipt, with a folder for each calendar year.

I also keep an Excel spreadsheet with each charge, what it was for, and whether it's been reimbursed or not. I did claim some expenses a few years ago, so I like to keep track of that.

I'm not worried about an audit. Considering how many HSA accounts are out there and how few audits can even be done these days, I think I'm good.

Catbert

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2025, 12:41:35 PM »
For those who are saving up HSA-eligible receipts to pull the money at some future date, do you worry at all about inviting an audit. 

As long as all your receipts are in order, of course you'd be fine from a tax perspective.  But I'd much rather never find myself sitting across from an IRS agent.

My current HSA's reimbursements are entirely an honor system, which seems like the sort of thing that might get tightened up in the future.

Even if you got audited it would be unlikely to involve "sitting across from an IRS agent."  I've been "audited" twice - both involving energy efficient upgrades (windows in the 1980s and solar in early 2000s).  Both times it was a letter requesting explanation/proof.  I sent contracts and receipts and they went away.

wageslave23

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2025, 08:25:35 PM »
For those who are saving up HSA-eligible receipts to pull the money at some future date, do you worry at all about inviting an audit. 

As long as all your receipts are in order, of course you'd be fine from a tax perspective.  But I'd much rather never find myself sitting across from an IRS agent.

My current HSA's reimbursements are entirely an honor system, which seems like the sort of thing that might get tightened up in the future.

Even if you got audited it would be unlikely to involve "sitting across from an IRS agent."  I've been "audited" twice - both involving energy efficient upgrades (windows in the 1980s and solar in early 2000s).  Both times it was a letter requesting explanation/proof.  I sent contracts and receipts and they went away.

That is correct. The IRS agent asks for proof/documentation of your expenses.  You either have them or you don't.  If you don't, then you dont get the deduction and you are taxed on the income.  It's kind of like walking out of Costco or Walmart and the little old man or woman asks to see your receipt to make sure you actually paid for the items in your cart.

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2025, 09:45:05 PM »
I don't fear an audit because I am not on any funny business when it comes to my taxes.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #96 on: July 15, 2025, 08:05:44 AM »
For the most part I consider my HSA as money for Long Term, end of life care.  With receipts being something I can do if necessary earlier.  But that assumes 2 things, I’ve run through my other funds and/or I had a lot of health care costs going on.  Personally I don't want either.  But I ave heard a rumor that gym fees may become HSA eligible which would be kind of nice.

kite

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2025, 09:36:10 AM »
An audit wasn’t my worry with amassing receipts for the HSA. Dying without cashing them in is a bigger worry, and one I’m addressing in these early years of retirement.

41_swish

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2025, 09:40:52 PM »
So what is the point of the HSA during the pre Medicare years?

seattlecyclone

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Re: US: Median income is $80k?!?
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2025, 10:22:46 PM »
So what is the point of the HSA during the pre Medicare years?

During the accumulation phase, HSA contributions can help minimize your taxable income. Since the money is uniquely tax-free both coming and going, the HSA should be one of the first places you contribute if you have a qualifying health plan. If you're not in a position to max out all your other tax-sheltered retirement accounts you can then pay medical bills from the HSA so you have more money available for retirement contributions. If you are maxing everything out, then the best play is usually to pay medical expenses from non-sheltered accounts, and save the receipts. Those receipts then grant you a corresponding amount of tax-free withdrawals later in life.

Then during the withdrawal phase the HSA gives you the ability to withdraw for current and past medical bills without those withdrawals counting toward your income at all. The ability to take these income-free withdrawals helps keep your pre-Medicare ACA income down, letting you maximize your premium tax credits.

If you then happen to have HSA funds remaining by the time you hit Medicare age you can spend them on old-age care. Once you hit the withdrawal phase I do recommend prioritizing spending down the HSA as you're able to do so, as an inherited HSA is not as favorable for your heirs as an inherited IRA is.