Author Topic: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?  (Read 33825 times)

Gimesalot

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2017, 11:10:47 AM »
One idea that hasn't been mentioned is the Dutch American Friendship treaty.  You can start your won business with very little start-up capital and move to the Netherlands.

https://daftvisa.wordpress.com/step-by-step-guide/

ZiziPB

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2017, 11:21:14 AM »
I'm FIREing and moving to Poland next year - not because it's a particularly enticing retirement destination but because my family is there.  I have a Polish passport and driver's license from before I emigrated to the US, so things are fairly easy in terms of setting up a new life there.  One big advantage of Poland is the fact that it is a EU country.  And the COL is very low!  I'm in the process of figuring out the tax consequences right now.

the_fixer

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2017, 11:26:33 AM »
Glad I found this discussion.

The wife and I were planning to travel in retirement and Europe is of course on the list.

My father was brought to the US as a child after the war and as far as I know still has dual citizenship so I wonder if I could obtain German citizenship and what impact that would have?

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2017, 11:40:15 AM »
Which European country is the best based on tax policy alone?  Portugal?

US citizens have to file US taxes no matter where they are tax residents. There is no tax advantage to moving to a country with lower taxes than the US because you have to pay the difference to the IRS. Portugal and Spain are for sure countries where you can stay under the US tax amount but I'm sure there are others where it is the same situation.

Taxes are much higher in most European countries but that is in large part due to payroll-tax-like charges which you do not have to pay unless you work in the country.

As a result, the effective tax burden in many EU countries is not too different from the US for US retirees because US taxes put a limit on how low you can go.

The real savings in Europe are found by going native with your lifestyle - not by tax avoidance.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 11:57:37 AM by PeteD01 »

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2017, 11:48:46 AM »
Glad I found this discussion.

The wife and I were planning to travel in retirement and Europe is of course on the list.

My father was brought to the US as a child after the war and as far as I know still has dual citizenship so I wonder if I could obtain German citizenship and what impact that would have?

You need to verify if your father indeed still has German citizenship. The impact would be pretty amazing because you would get a German passport with EU citizenship rights and Germany leaves you alone, tax and otherwise, if you do not live in the country and have no income from there.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 11:53:27 AM by PeteD01 »

jim555

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2017, 12:15:36 PM »
I would try to avoid becoming a tax resident of any country to avoid the whole hassle of taxes.  Just keep moving.  The USA gets you no matter what you do.

BGordon

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2017, 12:23:23 PM »
Which European country is the best based on tax policy alone?  Portugal?

US citizens have to file US taxes no matter where they are tax residents. There is no tax advantage to moving to a country with lower taxes than the US because you have to pay the difference to the IRS. Portugal and Spain are for sure countries where you can stay under the US tax amount but I'm sure there are others where it is the same situation.

Taxes are much higher in most European countries but that is in large part due to payroll-tax-like charges which you do not have to pay unless you work in the country.

As a result, the effective tax burden in many EU countries is not too different from the US for US retirees because US taxes put a limit on how low you can go.

The real savings in Europe are found by going native with your lifestyle - not by tax avoidance.

I understand US taxes, I'm referring to additional taxes in that county whether it be from higher rates or a different taxing scheme (i.e. wealth tax).

BGordon

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2017, 12:26:07 PM »
I would try to avoid becoming a tax resident of any country to avoid the whole hassle of taxes.  Just keep moving.  The USA gets you no matter what you do.

That is the issue, I don't won't to keep moving, I want a home base. 

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2017, 12:30:30 PM »
I would try to avoid becoming a tax resident of any country to avoid the whole hassle of taxes.  Just keep moving.  The USA gets you no matter what you do.

One of the perks of FIRE is that you can get in on sweet deals such as inexpensive private health insurance which are not available when you are older. Becoming a tax resident opens up opportunities like that and may lead to permanent residency status with associated rights. Figuring out your taxes once and then just filing the updates once a year is not that big of a deal when you think about it.

BGordon

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2017, 12:34:27 PM »
One of the perks of FIRE is that you can get in on sweet deals such as inexpensive private health insurance which are not available when you are older. Becoming a tax resident opens up opportunities like that and may lead to permanent residency status with associated rights. Figuring out your taxes once and then just filing the updates once a year is not that big of a deal when you think about it.

Permanent residency is my goal.


Krolik

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2017, 12:44:22 PM »
I'm FIREing and moving to Poland next year - not because it's a particularly enticing retirement destination but because my family is there.  I have a Polish passport and driver's license from before I emigrated to the US, so things are fairly easy in terms of setting up a new life there.  One big advantage of Poland is the fact that it is a EU country.  And the COL is very low!  I'm in the process of figuring out the tax consequences right now.

See you there ZiZiPB ;-) We are in similar situation but still few years from FIRE.
Pozdrowienia z Florydy :-)

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2017, 12:46:51 PM »
Which European country is the best based on tax policy alone?  Portugal?

US citizens have to file US taxes no matter where they are tax residents. There is no tax advantage to moving to a country with lower taxes than the US because you have to pay the difference to the IRS. Portugal and Spain are for sure countries where you can stay under the US tax amount but I'm sure there are others where it is the same situation.

Taxes are much higher in most European countries but that is in large part due to payroll-tax-like charges which you do not have to pay unless you work in the country.

As a result, the effective tax burden in many EU countries is not too different from the US for US retirees because US taxes put a limit on how low you can go.

The real savings in Europe are found by going native with your lifestyle - not by tax avoidance.

I understand US taxes, I'm referring to additional taxes in that county whether it be from higher rates or a different taxing scheme (i.e. wealth tax).

Wealth tax is not common and typically excludes retirement accounts and primary residences. So you are not going to be subject to it unless you are really wealthy. We are talking about people who have socked away 2.5 to 3 millions in protected assets and still have more than 1.4 million in after tax investments, as far as Spain is concerned.
There are no additional taxes on expats and double taxation is avoided in most cases by tax treaties.
So if you understand US Taxes, you also already know pretty much what your total burden is in most southern European countries.
Specifically, Portugal has a special tax treatment for the first ten years which exempts you from all income taxes for foreign sourced income but it does not make one bit of a difference compared to Spain assuming US person status (in the IRS sense) and mustachian level taxable income (<$40000/yr) because you'd still be paying the same to the IRS.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 12:52:20 PM by PeteD01 »

tralfamadorian

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2017, 12:51:45 PM »
One idea that hasn't been mentioned is the Dutch American Friendship treaty.  You can start your won business with very little start-up capital and move to the Netherlands.

https://daftvisa.wordpress.com/step-by-step-guide/

I've had that one on my list for the dutch Caribbean islands :)

jim555

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2017, 12:55:35 PM »
One shortcut is marry someone in the country you want to stay in.  3 years usually will get citizenship.

BGordon

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2017, 01:06:12 PM »
Wealth tax is not common and typically excludes retirement accounts and primary residences. So you are not going to be subject to it unless you are really wealthy. We are talking about people who have socked away 2.5 to 3 millions in protected assets and still have more than 1.4 million in after tax investments, as far as Spain is concerned.
There are no additional taxes on expats and double taxation is avoided in most cases by tax treaties.
So if you understand US Taxes, you also already know pretty much what your total burden is in most southern European countries.
Specifically, Portugal has a special tax treatment for the first ten years which exempts you from all income taxes for foreign sourced income but it does not make one bit of a difference compared to Spain assuming US person status (in the IRS sense) and mustachian level taxable income (<$40000/yr) because you'd still be paying the same to the IRS.

Thanks!

So as far as choosing a location, it sounds like tax issue should probably take a back seat to general desirability and cost of living concerns. 

Plan is to have something between 1.5 and 2 million.  Use 200k to 400k for a residence and live off the rest. 
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 01:21:19 PM by BGordon »

Paul der Krake

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2017, 01:07:20 PM »
One shortcut is marry someone in the country you want to stay in.  3 years usually will get citizenship.
I'm going to become fabulously rich when I start my new dating service for aspiring worldly early retirees. It will pair off European engineers with frugal American spouses.  Couples can achieve FIRE stateside using the much higher engineering salaries, then retire to a life of delicate sophistication in the old country.

All of this for a modest rehoming fee of 5% of the new immigrant first year salary.

BGordon

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2017, 01:08:21 PM »
One shortcut is marry someone in the country you want to stay in.  3 years usually will get citizenship.

I like that idea, but I'm afraid my wife wouldn't let me.

ZiziPB

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2017, 03:10:11 PM »
Wealth tax is not common and typically excludes retirement accounts and primary residences. So you are not going to be subject to it unless you are really wealthy. We are talking about people who have socked away 2.5 to 3 millions in protected assets and still have more than 1.4 million in after tax investments, as far as Spain is concerned.
There are no additional taxes on expats and double taxation is avoided in most cases by tax treaties.
So if you understand US Taxes, you also already know pretty much what your total burden is in most southern European countries.
Specifically, Portugal has a special tax treatment for the first ten years which exempts you from all income taxes for foreign sourced income but it does not make one bit of a difference compared to Spain assuming US person status (in the IRS sense) and mustachian level taxable income (<$40000/yr) because you'd still be paying the same to the IRS.

Thanks!

So as far as choosing a location, it sounds like tax issue should probably take a back seat to general desirability and cost of living concerns. 

Plan is to have something between 1.5 and 2 million.  Use 200k to 400k for a residence and live off the rest.

I have started looking at this issue in Poland and what I have found so far is that foreign sourced dividends and capital gains are taxed the same as domestic dividends and capital gains, at a flat 19% rate.  Assuming you are in the 15% tax bracket in the US, those would be taxed at 0% in the US and 19% in Poland.  Still trying to figure out if retirement accounts are subject to the same tax or if there is a different treatment for them.  From what I understand, most European countries are now moving away from exempting foreign sourced income from taxation, but I have no specific information about exemptions in Portugal.  Generally you become a tax resident if you spend more than 6 months in year in the specific country or if you have your home base in that country.

CapLimited

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2017, 03:57:16 PM »
We are investigating the South of France for retirement.  We are on track to buy a modest apartment there in 3-5 years, with a permanent move in about 7 years, after I retire, with shorter trips in the meantime.  We should have more than sufficient resources to assure the French government that we will not be a drain on society.  Larger challenges include estate planning for both the U.S. and France, since neither of us will retire especially early, and driver's licenses.  DC doesn't have a reciprocal driver's license agreement with France, so we'll be signing up for French driving school. 
FYI, you are allowed to pass the test as a "candidat libre".

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2825

Obviously you will need to know how to drive a stickshift if you don't already.

Been driving stick since I was 16.  It looks, however, that they want to make the "candidat libre" process as hard as possible -- like requiring a car with double brake, clutch, and acceleration controls for the driving test. Where would one get this besides a driving school?  I will continue to investigate.
Ouch, that sucks.

Alternative idea: establish residency in one of the states listed here right before moving:
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/---_liste_definitive_permis_de_conduire_valables_a_l_echange_02_2017_---_2__cle085da1.pdf

Probably a good idea to set up shop in a state without income tax anyway. Florida and Texas both qualify on both counts.

Moving to Florida for the driver's license and to establish tax domicile so we don't have to pay state taxes would simplify our lives considerably. Mr. CapLimited won't like it -- he thinks everybody in Florida is crazy -- but I have some time to make the case for it.

dougules

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2017, 04:10:28 PM »
We are investigating the South of France for retirement.  We are on track to buy a modest apartment there in 3-5 years, with a permanent move in about 7 years, after I retire, with shorter trips in the meantime.  We should have more than sufficient resources to assure the French government that we will not be a drain on society.  Larger challenges include estate planning for both the U.S. and France, since neither of us will retire especially early, and driver's licenses.  DC doesn't have a reciprocal driver's license agreement with France, so we'll be signing up for French driving school. 
FYI, you are allowed to pass the test as a "candidat libre".

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2825

Obviously you will need to know how to drive a stickshift if you don't already.

Been driving stick since I was 16.  It looks, however, that they want to make the "candidat libre" process as hard as possible -- like requiring a car with double brake, clutch, and acceleration controls for the driving test. Where would one get this besides a driving school?  I will continue to investigate.
Ouch, that sucks.

Alternative idea: establish residency in one of the states listed here right before moving:
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/---_liste_definitive_permis_de_conduire_valables_a_l_echange_02_2017_---_2__cle085da1.pdf

Probably a good idea to set up shop in a state without income tax anyway. Florida and Texas both qualify on both counts.

Moving to Florida for the driver's license and to establish tax domicile so we don't have to pay state taxes would simplify our lives considerably. Mr. CapLimited won't like it -- he thinks everybody in Florida is crazy -- but I have some time to make the case for it.

You could do TN or WA. 

VolcanicArts

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2017, 11:01:48 PM »
I really like the Czech Republic. I've been there 4 times. From what I've heard though, you have to know people to get a good deal on property and the language is not easy, but it's a beautiful place. Super low COL also.

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2017, 01:19:53 AM »
Wealth tax is not common and typically excludes retirement accounts and primary residences. So you are not going to be subject to it unless you are really wealthy. We are talking about people who have socked away 2.5 to 3 millions in protected assets and still have more than 1.4 million in after tax investments, as far as Spain is concerned.
There are no additional taxes on expats and double taxation is avoided in most cases by tax treaties.
So if you understand US Taxes, you also already know pretty much what your total burden is in most southern European countries.
Specifically, Portugal has a special tax treatment for the first ten years which exempts you from all income taxes for foreign sourced income but it does not make one bit of a difference compared to Spain assuming US person status (in the IRS sense) and mustachian level taxable income (<$40000/yr) because you'd still be paying the same to the IRS.

Thanks!

So as far as choosing a location, it sounds like tax issue should probably take a back seat to general desirability and cost of living concerns. 

Plan is to have something between 1.5 and 2 million.  Use 200k to 400k for a residence and live off the rest.

Yes, taxes need to be carefully planned according to the rules of the country. Particularly Roth strategies are often not advantageous. Also, some larger transactions like selling primary residences or buying annuities with qualified funds may not be taxable events in the US but may be so in the destination country. Such transactions need to be concluded prior to becoming tax resident in the destination country. Apart from that, taxes can take a back seat.

For us, it looks like that we will pay 2-3 times more US txes this year than taxes to Spain. But even if we were taxed most unfavorably in Spain and would have to pay more taxes to Spain than to the IRS, we would still come out ahead:

COL in our location is more than 30% less than in the US (not HCOL US but our previous location in upstate NY) and that is overall and does not include health insurance which is $1800 with no deductible compared to $13200 for our COBRA plan. We are not eligible for ACA subsidies. Housing is also less than half as previously.

In the US, we would be pushing well into the 25% bracket for the same standard of living taking our personal COL difference into account. We would of course rapidly deplete our stache if we did that.

Bottom line, once you have done your due diligence with tax planning and found a place with decent COL, taxes are not a decisive factor any more.

rpr

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2017, 01:59:58 AM »
I recently met an American living in Spain  who told me that (imputed?) rental income on real estate (e.g. residential home in the US)  was taxed even if you were not renting it out. This is if you were resident in Spain for more than 183 days. I did not check to see if this was correct.

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2017, 07:46:29 AM »
I recently met an American living in Spain  who told me that (imputed?) rental income on real estate (e.g. residential home in the US)  was taxed even if you were not renting it out. This is if you were resident in Spain for more than 183 days. I did not check to see if this was correct.

That is correct as far as I know.

GU

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2017, 10:42:51 AM »
Which European country is the best based on tax policy alone?  Portugal?

US citizens have to file US taxes no matter where they are tax residents. There is no tax advantage to moving to a country with lower taxes than the US because you have to pay the difference to the IRS. Portugal and Spain are for sure countries where you can stay under the US tax amount but I'm sure there are others where it is the same situation.

Taxes are much higher in most European countries but that is in large part due to payroll-tax-like charges which you do not have to pay unless you work in the country.

As a result, the effective tax burden in many EU countries is not too different from the US for US retirees because US taxes put a limit on how low you can go.

The real savings in Europe are found by going native with your lifestyle - not by tax avoidance.

Yeah, the U.S. taxes citizens on their worldwide income, it would be better to focus more on differences in VAT rates, wealth taxes, property taxes, etc.  I would think places like Switzerland and Lichtenstein have low taxes, but they're not in the EU so if you're looking for an EU passport they won't work. 

PiobStache

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2017, 10:54:00 AM »
We're currently intrigued with Portugal or the Rias Biaxas area of Galacia in Spain.  Wine culture is a big part of our lives and that factors in along with COL for us.

NESailor

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2017, 11:00:00 AM »
posting to follow...don't have time to read this all but I've played with the idea.  Funny thing...I actually have a purple EU country passport:)   I'm a green card holder in the US and still have my half of the family back "home" whatever that means at this point.   I'd have to get the DW on board but perhaps in our later years we may be able to finangle something.  I know for a fact that our FI/RE # would easily be HALF to live in my former home country (eastern Europe).

rpr

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2017, 11:36:46 PM »
We're currently intrigued with Portugal or the Rias Biaxas area of Galacia in Spain.  Wine culture is a big part of our lives and that factors in along with COL for us.

I have been to Barcelona and the surrounding Catalan countryside and absolutely love it. One of my best experiences has been walking through vineyards and on country trails where locals showed me how to look for asparagus in the wild.  That tastes so fantastic and strong and sure beats the stuff you get at the US supermarket. Plus the wild fennel, the wild rosemary and all the native spices.

PiobStache

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2017, 09:57:27 AM »
That sounds absolutely wonderful. Thanks for sharing your experiences.


We're currently intrigued with Portugal or the Rias Biaxas area of Galacia in Spain.  Wine culture is a big part of our lives and that factors in along with COL for us.

I have been to Barcelona and the surrounding Catalan countryside and absolutely love it. One of my best experiences has been walking through vineyards and on country trails where locals showed me how to look for asparagus in the wild.  That tastes so fantastic and strong and sure beats the stuff you get at the US supermarket. Plus the wild fennel, the wild rosemary and all the native spices.

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2017, 11:17:41 AM »
Which European country is the best based on tax policy alone?  Portugal?

US citizens have to file US taxes no matter where they are tax residents. There is no tax advantage to moving to a country with lower taxes than the US because you have to pay the difference to the IRS. Portugal and Spain are for sure countries where you can stay under the US tax amount but I'm sure there are others where it is the same situation.

Taxes are much higher in most European countries but that is in large part due to payroll-tax-like charges which you do not have to pay unless you work in the country.

As a result, the effective tax burden in many EU countries is not too different from the US for US retirees because US taxes put a limit on how low you can go.

The real savings in Europe are found by going native with your lifestyle - not by tax avoidance.

Yeah, the U.S. taxes citizens on their worldwide income, it would be better to focus more on differences in VAT rates, wealth taxes, property taxes, etc.  I would think places like Switzerland and Lichtenstein have low taxes, but they're not in the EU so if you're looking for an EU passport they won't work.

With Switzerland and Liechtenstein you got two examples of countries where taxes might be lower but COL is certainly higher than in most places in the US. This is not desirable because the way currency fluctuations affect you while residing in the country.

When the $ goes down your living expenses go up but your foreign tax bill goes down. If your foreign tax bill was higher than the US tax bill, your total tax would go down until your foreign tax bill is equal or less than the US tax bill. If your foreign bill was lower than the US tax bill your total tax bill will not decrease when the $ goes down.

When faced with the choice between a lower tax/HCOL country and higher tax/LCOL country (lower and higher compared to US tax) the latter is the better choice because of decreased disposable income volatility. Of course, currency fluctuations are never fully canceled out but there is some buffer there.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 11:19:53 AM by PeteD01 »

Marvel2017

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2017, 11:27:00 AM »
My (Jewish) wife's grandfather fled Germany around 1937. My wife applied for citizenship reclamation and the Consulate rep said everything looked good with the application, so we're hoping soon we'll hear back that my wife and two children will have Germany citizenship (dual with US). I would be the spouse of an EU citizen, so I'm hoping that will make it easier for me to get a job somewhere in the EU. We will probably move there at some point in the future. We will have school-aged children so pretty much have to establish residency for their sake/schooling so I need to do some more research on tax implications.

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2017, 12:55:33 PM »
My (Jewish) wife's grandfather fled Germany around 1937. My wife applied for citizenship reclamation and the Consulate rep said everything looked good with the application, so we're hoping soon we'll hear back that my wife and two children will have Germany citizenship (dual with US). I would be the spouse of an EU citizen, so I'm hoping that will make it easier for me to get a job somewhere in the EU. We will probably move there at some point in the future. We will have school-aged children so pretty much have to establish residency for their sake/schooling so I need to do some more research on tax implications.

Try to remember this once you get to the point of moving or traveling to the EU:

You will not be considered a spouse of a EU Citizen when entering Germany as the port of entry to the EU. That is because your EU spouse has never invoked her rights as a EU Citizen and cannot do that because she entered the EU through her country of nationality and German national law applies (not good).

Do not enter another EU country and telling them at the border that you are anything other than a tourist because of the same issue: your spouse needs to have invoked her rights as a EU Citizen at least once or national law of the port of entry country applies (not good).

Do this: enter a EU country, (that could even be Germany) other than the one you are going to apply for residency in, for a short vacation. This will permit you to enter the country and will automatically give you Schengen visa rights to travel to your destination country. Tell the authorities at the border that you are taking a vacation in their country and that is obviously truthful because as you are not planning to settle there in that particular country. You are taking a vacation and have a return ticket. Otherwise STFU at the border because nobody wants to hear the long story anyway.
Travel with your spouse to the EU country you wish to eventually move to to have a look. I'm sure that your spouse will be overwhelmed by the beauty of the place and will go to the authorities to apply for residence on the spot and she will for sure get a receipt for it because that's just the way I picture her.
Bingo - a simple attempt to invoke EU Citizenship rights actually invokes them and you as the horrified spouse will forever be treated as a Family Member of a EU Citizen with rights almost similar to your spouse's. Just keep the receipt or whatever evidence they can give you, proving that your spouse invoked EU citizenship rights. It does not matter that the piece of paper does not state that EU Citizenship rights where invoked, only the fact that they were counts. So almost anything that states that one was at the office and tried to apply for residence will work - even if it was denied on the spot.

For US citizens, it is really important to understand that immigration issues with EU countries need to be sorted out while physically present in the EU whereas US immigration issues generally need to be sorted out before entering the US. It is a completely different approach.

This is not legal advice and you need to research things before you go. I just want to alert you to the fact that trying to sort out immigration issues with EU countries before you and your EU spouse are physically in the country can complicate things enormously because you will not be considered a Family Member of a EU Citizen because they themselves are not comsidered EU Citizens but only nationals of a EU country, unless they have invoked EU Citizenship rights at least once before. Until that has happened you will be a family member of a national of a EU country and that only gives you the rights of the country of nationality and that is not a good situation.

I was trying for a short and clear response but...

Another try at explaining the problem:

Simply having the nationality and passport of a EU country does not make you a EU Citizen - no matter that it says EU on the passport. But wait that is not entirely true... Being a national of a EU country does make you a EU citizen - but lower case. That's because you do not have freedom of movement and residence and immigration rights for you and your family unless you have them invoked at least once. One has to have done that at least once and it can't be done upon entry into the EU because the borders are controlled by the constituent countries.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 01:01:05 PM by PeteD01 »

Paul der Krake

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2017, 01:10:53 PM »
^ This was a very convoluted way to say that the EU is not a magical nation but a collection of individual countries and as such, immigrants should learn the immigration rules and procedures of the country they intend to become a resident of.

tl;dr do your homework

aspiringnomad

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2017, 01:32:00 PM »
My (Jewish) wife's grandfather fled Germany around 1937. My wife applied for citizenship reclamation and the Consulate rep said everything looked good with the application, so we're hoping soon we'll hear back that my wife and two children will have Germany citizenship (dual with US). I would be the spouse of an EU citizen, so I'm hoping that will make it easier for me to get a job somewhere in the EU. We will probably move there at some point in the future. We will have school-aged children so pretty much have to establish residency for their sake/schooling so I need to do some more research on tax implications.

Try to remember this once you get to the point of moving or traveling to the EU:

You will not be considered a spouse of a EU Citizen when entering Germany as the port of entry to the EU. That is because your EU spouse has never invoked her rights as a EU Citizen and cannot do that because she entered the EU through her country of nationality and German national law applies (not good).

Do not enter another EU country and telling them at the border that you are anything other than a tourist because of the same issue: your spouse needs to have invoked her rights as a EU Citizen at least once or national law of the port of entry country applies (not good).

Do this: enter a EU country, (that could even be Germany) other than the one you are going to apply for residency in, for a short vacation. This will permit you to enter the country and will automatically give you Schengen visa rights to travel to your destination country. Tell the authorities at the border that you are taking a vacation in their country and that is obviously truthful because as you are not planning to settle there in that particular country. You are taking a vacation and have a return ticket. Otherwise STFU at the border because nobody wants to hear the long story anyway.
Travel with your spouse to the EU country you wish to eventually move to to have a look. I'm sure that your spouse will be overwhelmed by the beauty of the place and will go to the authorities to apply for residence on the spot and she will for sure get a receipt for it because that's just the way I picture her.
Bingo - a simple attempt to invoke EU Citizenship rights actually invokes them and you as the horrified spouse will forever be treated as a Family Member of a EU Citizen with rights almost similar to your spouse's. Just keep the receipt or whatever evidence they can give you, proving that your spouse invoked EU citizenship rights. It does not matter that the piece of paper does not state that EU Citizenship rights where invoked, only the fact that they were counts. So almost anything that states that one was at the office and tried to apply for residence will work - even if it was denied on the spot.

For US citizens, it is really important to understand that immigration issues with EU countries need to be sorted out while physically present in the EU whereas US immigration issues generally need to be sorted out before entering the US. It is a completely different approach.

This is not legal advice and you need to research things before you go. I just want to alert you to the fact that trying to sort out immigration issues with EU countries before you and your EU spouse are physically in the country can complicate things enormously because you will not be considered a Family Member of a EU Citizen because they themselves are not comsidered EU Citizens but only nationals of a EU country, unless they have invoked EU Citizenship rights at least once before. Until that has happened you will be a family member of a national of a EU country and that only gives you the rights of the country of nationality and that is not a good situation.

I was trying for a short and clear response but...

Another try at explaining the problem:

Simply having the nationality and passport of a EU country does not make you a EU Citizen - no matter that it says EU on the passport. But wait that is not entirely true... Being a national of a EU country does make you a EU citizen - but lower case. That's because you do not have freedom of movement and residence and immigration rights for you and your family unless you have them invoked at least once. One has to have done that at least once and it can't be done upon entry into the EU because the borders are controlled by the constituent countries.

I'm not sure I fully understand this, but definitely appreciate the info nonetheless. My understanding, for Portugal, is that I would arrive on a tourist visa, then anytime during the 3 months I'm initially allowed to stay in the country simply register with the local visa office (or maybe it's a tax office). If memory of what I read serves me right, I think I'll get a card stating that I am the spouse of an EU citizen. It's that easy as I understand it. Does that contradict anything you're trying to warn folks about?

jim555

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2017, 06:42:16 PM »
I'm not sure I fully understand this, but definitely appreciate the info nonetheless. My understanding, for Portugal, is that I would arrive on a tourist visa, then anytime during the 3 months I'm initially allowed to stay in the country simply register with the local visa office (or maybe it's a tax office). If memory of what I read serves me right, I think I'll get a card stating that I am the spouse of an EU citizen. It's that easy as I understand it. Does that contradict anything you're trying to warn folks about?
That looks correct:

"Your non-EU spouse, children and grandchildren must apply for a residence document with the authorities in the host country (often the town hall or local police station) within 3 months of arriving."

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/family-residence-rights/non-eu-wife-husband-children/index_en.htm

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2017, 02:38:48 AM »
My (Jewish) wife's grandfather fled Germany around 1937. My wife applied for citizenship reclamation and the Consulate rep said everything looked good with the application, so we're hoping soon we'll hear back that my wife and two children will have Germany citizenship (dual with US). I would be the spouse of an EU citizen, so I'm hoping that will make it easier for me to get a job somewhere in the EU. We will probably move there at some point in the future. We will have school-aged children so pretty much have to establish residency for their sake/schooling so I need to do some more research on tax implications.

Try to remember this once you get to the point of moving or traveling to the EU:

You will not be considered a spouse of a EU Citizen when entering Germany as the port of entry to the EU. That is because your EU spouse has never invoked her rights as a EU Citizen and cannot do that because she entered the EU through her country of nationality and German national law applies (not good).

Do not enter another EU country and telling them at the border that you are anything other than a tourist because of the same issue: your spouse needs to have invoked her rights as a EU Citizen at least once or national law of the port of entry country applies (not good).

Do this: enter a EU country, (that could even be Germany) other than the one you are going to apply for residency in, for a short vacation. This will permit you to enter the country and will automatically give you Schengen visa rights to travel to your destination country. Tell the authorities at the border that you are taking a vacation in their country and that is obviously truthful because as you are not planning to settle there in that particular country. You are taking a vacation and have a return ticket. Otherwise STFU at the border because nobody wants to hear the long story anyway.
Travel with your spouse to the EU country you wish to eventually move to to have a look. I'm sure that your spouse will be overwhelmed by the beauty of the place and will go to the authorities to apply for residence on the spot and she will for sure get a receipt for it because that's just the way I picture her.
Bingo - a simple attempt to invoke EU Citizenship rights actually invokes them and you as the horrified spouse will forever be treated as a Family Member of a EU Citizen with rights almost similar to your spouse's. Just keep the receipt or whatever evidence they can give you, proving that your spouse invoked EU citizenship rights. It does not matter that the piece of paper does not state that EU Citizenship rights where invoked, only the fact that they were counts. So almost anything that states that one was at the office and tried to apply for residence will work - even if it was denied on the spot.

For US citizens, it is really important to understand that immigration issues with EU countries need to be sorted out while physically present in the EU whereas US immigration issues generally need to be sorted out before entering the US. It is a completely different approach.

This is not legal advice and you need to research things before you go. I just want to alert you to the fact that trying to sort out immigration issues with EU countries before you and your EU spouse are physically in the country can complicate things enormously because you will not be considered a Family Member of a EU Citizen because they themselves are not comsidered EU Citizens but only nationals of a EU country, unless they have invoked EU Citizenship rights at least once before. Until that has happened you will be a family member of a national of a EU country and that only gives you the rights of the country of nationality and that is not a good situation.

I was trying for a short and clear response but...

Another try at explaining the problem:

Simply having the nationality and passport of a EU country does not make you a EU Citizen - no matter that it says EU on the passport. But wait that is not entirely true... Being a national of a EU country does make you a EU citizen - but lower case. That's because you do not have freedom of movement and residence and immigration rights for you and your family unless you have them invoked at least once. One has to have done that at least once and it can't be done upon entry into the EU because the borders are controlled by the constituent countries.

I'm not sure I fully understand this, but definitely appreciate the info nonetheless. My understanding, for Portugal, is that I would arrive on a tourist visa, then anytime during the 3 months I'm initially allowed to stay in the country simply register with the local visa office (or maybe it's a tax office). If memory of what I read serves me right, I think I'll get a card stating that I am the spouse of an EU citizen. It's that easy as I understand it. Does that contradict anything you're trying to warn folks about?

You do not fully understand this. The reason why you have to be careful about which country you enter first, the order in which you and the EU spouse make their residence applications, and why it doesn't work at all in the country of nationality of the EU spouse, is that you are trying to use EU laws which were designed to eliminate any restrictions on the free movement of EU citizens. The EU laws were not designed to make it easy for non EU spouses to immigrate to An EU country.
Every EU country has their own national immigration law and EU law only overrides it when the free movement of EU Citizens is restricted and restriction of movement of family members is considered a restriction on free movement of EU Citizens.

So you need to enter the EU without breaking any immigration law. Because the EU cannot be entered but through a EU country, you need to chose any EU country but your future country of residence to enter the EU for which the condition of entering of being a tourist visitor is true. This needs to be really true, which means that you are really planning a vacation visit and not just use the country as a transit country to your destination country. If you use the country of entry into the EU only as a transit to another EU country then the condition of tourist visitor has to be met for the destination country in order to be admitted as a tourist visitor.

If you enter the EU through Portugal (your future country of residence), the condition of being a tourist visitor to Portugal is not true and a tourist visitor visa could only be obtained by misrepresentation. If you do this, it will be found out as soon as you present your passport at the immigration office where you make your residence application. They may let it slide but you can also get into trouble and be denied processing because they do not have to admit law breakers. When my non EU spouse made her applications, the agent carefully checked that no Spanish immigration law was violated during the process of traveling to Spain. She had an entrance stamp from Germany in her passport and we had to submit a photocopy of it, which was filed and that was it.

Once you have entered the EU as a tourist visitor to the EU country of entry, you are free to travel without further formalities to all countries under the Schengen rules because the Schengen rules are under which you were admitted. You are now free to travel to Portugal, your destination country for residence. Of course, because you are not a tourist visitor to Portugal but a immigrant visitor, traveling to Portugal is a violation of the rules under which you were admitted. This is technically illegal, but as long as you travel accompanying your EU spouse, your spouse can invoke at any time her right of freedom of movement as a EU Citizen and this covers the non EU spouse going forward. But you need to accompany your spouse for this to work.

Only when you have arrived in your future country of residence in company of your spouse without breaking any law on the way there, do the rules you mentioned apply. You go to the local immigration office (that can be anything depending on the country: proper immigration office, police station, citi hall, whatever). I would be careful that the EU spouse submits her residence application first because that ensures her legal status as a EU Citizen who has invoked treatment under EU law is officially documented with a time and date prior to your submission. You need to make your application within 90 days of arrival in the destination country and you will be provided with a residence card. Your legal residence commences with the day of submission of the request independent of having already received the card or still waiting to receive the card.

There can be a glitch when you have to document your family ties. For example, Spain does not recognize US marriage certificates and require your marriage certificate to be issued within 90 days of submission of the residence request by the EU country of nationality of the EU spouse. In the case of a EU spouse of Germany, your marriage can be registered in Germany and Germany will then issue German marriage certificates on international forms whenever you need them. Check the German consulate website for information on how to do this by mail.





Moonwaves

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2017, 04:44:50 AM »
Ireland is supposed to be another country where it is possible to get your citizenship if you have ancestors who did not renounce their citizenship- for example, parents renounce their Irish citizenship to become American citizens but their Irish born young children never directly do so.

My understanding is that it needs to be a parent or grandparent. My wife holds UK citizenship but has applied for Irish citizenship in light of Brexit on the basis of having 3 Irish grandparents. I'm on a mobile device and headed to bed, but the specific requirement should be pretty easy to find online.
Yep, this is correct. At least one Irish-born parent or grandparent who was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth is needed. See this citizens information page for more information.

With regard to Spain, if you plan on buying property there make sure you check tax consequences, particularly in cases of inheritance. From what I've understood, because so many people bought holiday/retirement homes in Spain over the years, they brought in a pretty steep regime to make sure that the state profited in some way. So if you inherit property in Spain (assuming this hasn't changed in the last 8 years, which is when I last had any connection to someone in this kind of situation) or want to leave property in Spain to someone, taxes can be significant.

Haven't read through all of the posts on Germany yet but anyone thinking of trying to claim citizenship based on ancestry can check out the boards at toytowngermany.com, particularly the visas/permits section. Lots of threads on exactly that topic with plenty of information.

aspiringnomad

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2017, 10:04:54 AM »
My (Jewish) wife's grandfather fled Germany around 1937. My wife applied for citizenship reclamation and the Consulate rep said everything looked good with the application, so we're hoping soon we'll hear back that my wife and two children will have Germany citizenship (dual with US). I would be the spouse of an EU citizen, so I'm hoping that will make it easier for me to get a job somewhere in the EU. We will probably move there at some point in the future. We will have school-aged children so pretty much have to establish residency for their sake/schooling so I need to do some more research on tax implications.

Try to remember this once you get to the point of moving or traveling to the EU:

You will not be considered a spouse of a EU Citizen when entering Germany as the port of entry to the EU. That is because your EU spouse has never invoked her rights as a EU Citizen and cannot do that because she entered the EU through her country of nationality and German national law applies (not good).

Do not enter another EU country and telling them at the border that you are anything other than a tourist because of the same issue: your spouse needs to have invoked her rights as a EU Citizen at least once or national law of the port of entry country applies (not good).

Do this: enter a EU country, (that could even be Germany) other than the one you are going to apply for residency in, for a short vacation. This will permit you to enter the country and will automatically give you Schengen visa rights to travel to your destination country. Tell the authorities at the border that you are taking a vacation in their country and that is obviously truthful because as you are not planning to settle there in that particular country. You are taking a vacation and have a return ticket. Otherwise STFU at the border because nobody wants to hear the long story anyway.
Travel with your spouse to the EU country you wish to eventually move to to have a look. I'm sure that your spouse will be overwhelmed by the beauty of the place and will go to the authorities to apply for residence on the spot and she will for sure get a receipt for it because that's just the way I picture her.
Bingo - a simple attempt to invoke EU Citizenship rights actually invokes them and you as the horrified spouse will forever be treated as a Family Member of a EU Citizen with rights almost similar to your spouse's. Just keep the receipt or whatever evidence they can give you, proving that your spouse invoked EU citizenship rights. It does not matter that the piece of paper does not state that EU Citizenship rights where invoked, only the fact that they were counts. So almost anything that states that one was at the office and tried to apply for residence will work - even if it was denied on the spot.

For US citizens, it is really important to understand that immigration issues with EU countries need to be sorted out while physically present in the EU whereas US immigration issues generally need to be sorted out before entering the US. It is a completely different approach.

This is not legal advice and you need to research things before you go. I just want to alert you to the fact that trying to sort out immigration issues with EU countries before you and your EU spouse are physically in the country can complicate things enormously because you will not be considered a Family Member of a EU Citizen because they themselves are not comsidered EU Citizens but only nationals of a EU country, unless they have invoked EU Citizenship rights at least once before. Until that has happened you will be a family member of a national of a EU country and that only gives you the rights of the country of nationality and that is not a good situation.

I was trying for a short and clear response but...

Another try at explaining the problem:

Simply having the nationality and passport of a EU country does not make you a EU Citizen - no matter that it says EU on the passport. But wait that is not entirely true... Being a national of a EU country does make you a EU citizen - but lower case. That's because you do not have freedom of movement and residence and immigration rights for you and your family unless you have them invoked at least once. One has to have done that at least once and it can't be done upon entry into the EU because the borders are controlled by the constituent countries.

I'm not sure I fully understand this, but definitely appreciate the info nonetheless. My understanding, for Portugal, is that I would arrive on a tourist visa, then anytime during the 3 months I'm initially allowed to stay in the country simply register with the local visa office (or maybe it's a tax office). If memory of what I read serves me right, I think I'll get a card stating that I am the spouse of an EU citizen. It's that easy as I understand it. Does that contradict anything you're trying to warn folks about?

You do not fully understand this. The reason why you have to be careful about which country you enter first, the order in which you and the EU spouse make their residence applications, and why it doesn't work at all in the country of nationality of the EU spouse, is that you are trying to use EU laws which were designed to eliminate any restrictions on the free movement of EU citizens. The EU laws were not designed to make it easy for non EU spouses to immigrate to An EU country.
Every EU country has their own national immigration law and EU law only overrides it when the free movement of EU Citizens is restricted and restriction of movement of family members is considered a restriction on free movement of EU Citizens.

So you need to enter the EU without breaking any immigration law. Because the EU cannot be entered but through a EU country, you need to chose any EU country but your future country of residence to enter the EU for which the condition of entering of being a tourist visitor is true. This needs to be really true, which means that you are really planning a vacation visit and not just use the country as a transit country to your destination country. If you use the country of entry into the EU only as a transit to another EU country then the condition of tourist visitor has to be met for the destination country in order to be admitted as a tourist visitor.

If you enter the EU through Portugal (your future country of residence), the condition of being a tourist visitor to Portugal is not true and a tourist visitor visa could only be obtained by misrepresentation. If you do this, it will be found out as soon as you present your passport at the immigration office where you make your residence application. They may let it slide but you can also get into trouble and be denied processing because they do not have to admit law breakers. When my non EU spouse made her applications, the agent carefully checked that no Spanish immigration law was violated during the process of traveling to Spain. She had an entrance stamp from Germany in her passport and we had to submit a photocopy of it, which was filed and that was it.

Once you have entered the EU as a tourist visitor to the EU country of entry, you are free to travel without further formalities to all countries under the Schengen rules because the Schengen rules are under which you were admitted. You are now free to travel to Portugal, your destination country for residence. Of course, because you are not a tourist visitor to Portugal but a immigrant visitor, traveling to Portugal is a violation of the rules under which you were admitted. This is technically illegal, but as long as you travel accompanying your EU spouse, your spouse can invoke at any time her right of freedom of movement as a EU Citizen and this covers the non EU spouse going forward. But you need to accompany your spouse for this to work.

Only when you have arrived in your future country of residence in company of your spouse without breaking any law on the way there, do the rules you mentioned apply. You go to the local immigration office (that can be anything depending on the country: proper immigration office, police station, citi hall, whatever). I would be careful that the EU spouse submits her residence application first because that ensures her legal status as a EU Citizen who has invoked treatment under EU law is officially documented with a time and date prior to your submission. You need to make your application within 90 days of arrival in the destination country and you will be provided with a residence card. Your legal residence commences with the day of submission of the request independent of having already received the card or still waiting to receive the card.

There can be a glitch when you have to document your family ties. For example, Spain does not recognize US marriage certificates and require your marriage certificate to be issued within 90 days of submission of the residence request by the EU country of nationality of the EU spouse. In the case of a EU spouse of Germany, your marriage can be registered in Germany and Germany will then issue German marriage certificates on international forms whenever you need them. Check the German consulate website for information on how to do this by mail.

Thank you for this explanation! It's very helpful.

East River Guide

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2017, 10:40:24 AM »
Just wanted to say thanks to those who contributed about foreign citizenship by descent.  Turns out I am a citizen of Germany!  Wish I would have know this sooner (I am 50) but I am going to start working on the paperwork for a German passport next week.  Should make long post-FIRE stays in Europe much easier.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 12:36:00 PM by East River Guide »

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2017, 12:22:14 PM »

Thank you for this explanation! It's very helpful.
[/quote]

Great.
You now got an idea about the strategy to follow which actually works in practice.
I now want to make some comments about what should work theoretically but has a high likelihood to cause you unnecessary trouble. Some things I pointed out previously are not strictly correct from a purely legal (theoretical) point of view. So what I am going to write about now is interesting but also can help you if you happen to hit a snag during the process.

1) i wrote above that Germany can be the country of entry even in the case of the EU spouse being of German nationality if  the condition of the non EU spouse being a tourist visitor is true. This is correct but I do not recommend to select Germany as a country of entry if the EU spouse is of German nationality. The reason for that is that a EU national cannot invoke EU citizen right in their country of nationality. The German border agent may suspect that the objective of entry of the non EU spouse is immigration into Germany. Of course, a border agent of any EU country can also suspect that the real reason for entry is immigration. But, other than in the case of the country of nationality (i.e. Germany in the example), the EU spouse can invoke EU citizen rights which cover an accompanying spouse. This means one has a recourse if things do not go well which is not available if the country of entry is also the country of nationality of the EU spouse.

2) I mentioned previously that the EU spouse cannot invoke EU Citizen rights upon entry in a EU country other than the country of nationality of the EU spouse. This is incorrect from a legal point of view but in practice it is actually correct. You have to picture the actual encounter at the border. The actual border agent is not a EU border agent, EU border agents do not exist and the legal fiction is that a national border agent transforms instantly into functioning as a EU border agent when dealing with EU citizen issues. The reality is that a national border agent is tasked with admitting tourists under visa waivers, tourists with visas, student and work visitors with visas, immigrants with visas, and with weeding out anyone who is trying to get into the country as an illegal immigrant with faulty documentation.
The job consists of checking documented facts and refuse entry if anything does not check out.  Now picture this official being confronted with a couple with no other documentation than proof of EU citizenship of the EU spouse and another person who clamors for admission with rights of a legal immigrant without having more to show than a marriage certificate which would under no circumstance be sufficient evidence to allow admission as an immigrant under the laws of the country which the agent is working for.
It is very unlikely that the border agent is going to wave you through unless he or she has processed such cases before and knows all the ins and outs of EU law. I personally would even consider it impolite to try to do it this way unless there is really no other lawful way to achieve your objective in a without putting a border agent in a difficult spot.

3) If you have gotten into trouble despite doing your best to avoid immigration violations and are being denied residence based on the commission of such crimes, you are still not out of luck unless these violations are connected with the country of the EU spouse. If you are found to have committed immigration fraud in connection with the country of nationality of the EU spouse you are screwed because there is no recourse to EU laws. This is another reason to avoid involving your EU spouse's country of nationality in the process.
The reason why you can get out of a difficult situation created by the commission of immigration violation is that the application of EU citizenship laws do not rely on documented facts but on facts established in the real world. All of the rules I have come in contact with were based on the facts of an issue and not on the documentation of the issue. Curiously, this is very much in line with a lot of non-immigration law but typically not so much in immigration law where documentation is everything and facts do not seem to exist until they are acknowledged in some administrative way.
What this means for a non EU spouse trying to immigrate to a EU country is that certain immigration violations may evaporate because the rights of a non EU spouse of a EU Citizen who has invoked rights under EU freedom of movement laws are not deemed to have come into existence at the time when EU Citizenship was invoked, but at the time when the conditions giving the right to be treated under Family Member of a EU Citizen rights came into being - that is when you were born or when you got married to the EU spouse and future EU Citizen. As a Family Member of a EU Citizen it is is really difficult to run afoul of immigration laws and most of the offenses one could possibly commit while attempting to immigrate to the EU are impossible to commit as a Family Member of a EU Citizen and could not possibly have been committed in the past because the status is effectively retroactive.
This is not legal advice but if we had run into problems during the process I would have followed a strategy of eliminating or reducing the severity of past violations on the basis of the retroactive nature of the status.
Of course, it is far better to avoid any complications of that sort.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 12:28:23 PM by PeteD01 »

BuildingFrugalHabits

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2017, 02:35:15 PM »
Great thread people. I want to add some resources and information as I find it. 

Scenario 1: Retire in the US and live on dividends / capital gains from a taxable account.
If your budget is less than $75,900, your US tax liability is $0.  http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/nn/articles/Taxes-Whats-New

Scenario 2: Retire in Italy and live on dividends from a taxable account
Dividends: Taxed at progressive income tax rates:
0-15,000 euros - 23%
15,001-28,000 euros - 27%
28,001-55,000 euros - 38%
55,001-75,000 euro - 41%
over 75,000 euro - 43%

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Documents/Tax/dttl-tax-italyguide-2016.pdf

So a mustachian level budget of 36,000 euro and a paid off house would incur a tax bill of 10,000 euros.

This amount would be reduced if some of it is capital gains depending on cost basis. 

Section 6.4 (Wealth Tax): Italian residents are taxed on foreign assets at a rate of 0.2% of the asset value.  So $2,000 on a 1M porfolio.  Not sure if retirement accounts are included in the wealth tax.  According to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax, appears they are :-(

Edit: According to wikipedia, there's a 4,800 euro exemption regardless of days worked.  If you're married or file separately, I assume this would be 9,600 euro.  That would reduce the taxes to 6,528 euro.  Also, VAT in Italy is 4% on food and 10-22% on other stuff.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 02:50:07 PM by BuildingFrugalHabits »

gaja

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2017, 03:09:48 PM »
Regarding the car discussions: I wouldn't bring a car before I'd tried Europe without one. There are plenty of nice LCOL areas where you don't need a car: walkable towns, areas with good bike routes, or you could rely on public transport.

BGordon

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2017, 05:02:31 PM »
Regarding the car discussions: I wouldn't bring a car before I'd tried Europe without one. There are plenty of nice LCOL areas where you don't need a car: walkable towns, areas with good bike routes, or you could rely on public transport.

Is your statement based simply on whether a person needs a car?  With me it wouldn't be a question of needing a car, but wanting one.

rachael talcott

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2017, 05:07:08 PM »
A few years ago I looked into German citizenship through ancestry, and it would not work for me because several of my patrilineal ancestors volunteered for US military service, thereby giving up their German citizenship before they could pass it to me.  Other than military service, the main thing you need to look for is whether or not your first patrilineal ancestor was born to a German citizen.  Even back in the 19th century, it took five years or so to get citizenship in the US.  Any children born in the US in the meantime did not have to renounce their German citizenship to get US citizenship, and would pass it on to their children.

gaja

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2017, 05:40:35 PM »
Regarding the car discussions: I wouldn't bring a car before I'd tried Europe without one. There are plenty of nice LCOL areas where you don't need a car: walkable towns, areas with good bike routes, or you could rely on public transport.

Is your statement based simply on whether a person needs a car?  With me it wouldn't be a question of needing a car, but wanting one.
Statement is based on logic ;) Why do you want a car? To be able to travel more easily? To transport stuff? For everyday use? Because they are shiny?

We have a car, but use it less and less. It is so much easier and more comfortable to use the trains, buses and bike. DH offered to drive me and the kids to the airport tomorrow; it would have taken at least 30 minutes longer than by train, the train doesn't get stuck in traffic (risking even longer delays), and we would have had to walk a longer distance to get to the departure area. In some parts of Europe, using and owning a car is so impractical and expensive that you might change your mind when you've been there for a few months. Public transport is often very affordable, easy and fast, and you don't have to pay $10/hour for parking (if you are lucky enough to find available space). If you really dislike travelling together with other people, car pools and different types of car sharing are getting more and more common around (western) Europe. Sure, there are plenty of areas here too, especially in the rural regions, where a car makes life much easier. But the old towns are not built for cars, and most governments here agree that we should be moving away from that mode of transport. Some cities are closing large parts of their down town areas for cars.

And then you have the fellow drivers. You will still meet older Belgians on the road who got their licence in the mail the day they turned 18, and who have never taken a single driving lesson. I challenge you to find a car in the Brussel city region with only one dent. But still, the ones we laugh about (because we all fear them) are the south European drivers. The rules and regulations are varied, and not everyone you meet at the border crossings have taken this Schengen stuff to heart. Those are some of the reasons that train trips are getting in fashion again.

Driving in Copenhagen is not the worst, they are quite orderly. But very few choose to do so, since walking or biking is so much faster:

BGordon

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2017, 07:04:35 PM »
Regarding the car discussions: I wouldn't bring a car before I'd tried Europe without one. There are plenty of nice LCOL areas where you don't need a car: walkable towns, areas with good bike routes, or you could rely on public transport.

Is your statement based simply on whether a person needs a car?  With me it wouldn't be a question of needing a car, but wanting one.
Statement is based on logic ;) Why do you want a car? To be able to travel more easily? To transport stuff? For everyday use? Because they are shiny?

We have a car, but use it less and less. It is so much easier and more comfortable to use the trains, buses and bike. DH offered to drive me and the kids to the airport tomorrow; it would have taken at least 30 minutes longer than by train, the train doesn't get stuck in traffic (risking even longer delays), and we would have had to walk a longer distance to get to the departure area. In some parts of Europe, using and owning a car is so impractical and expensive that you might change your mind when you've been there for a few months. Public transport is often very affordable, easy and fast, and you don't have to pay $10/hour for parking (if you are lucky enough to find available space). If you really dislike travelling together with other people, car pools and different types of car sharing are getting more and more common around (western) Europe. Sure, there are plenty of areas here too, especially in the rural regions, where a car makes life much easier. But the old towns are not built for cars, and most governments here agree that we should be moving away from that mode of transport. Some cities are closing large parts of their down town areas for cars.

And then you have the fellow drivers. You will still meet older Belgians on the road who got their licence in the mail the day they turned 18, and who have never taken a single driving lesson. I challenge you to find a car in the Brussel city region with only one dent. But still, the ones we laugh about (because we all fear them) are the south European drivers. The rules and regulations are varied, and not everyone you meet at the border crossings have taken this Schengen stuff to heart. Those are some of the reasons that train trips are getting in fashion again.

Driving in Copenhagen is not the worst, they are quite orderly. But very few choose to do so, since walking or biking is so much faster:

No, you completely missed my point.  Your statement and your discussion are centered around not needing a car because there are other means of transport that you feel are more convenient.  Basically you are looking at the car from a utilitarian point of view.  And I'm not debating that, I agree that the car may not be needed.  What I am saying is I want to take my car because I enjoy driving it.  Having the car is not about utility or convenience, it is about entertainment. 

2Birds1Stone

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2017, 08:12:23 PM »
Are there many US citizens here planning on retiring in Europe?  My wife and I have visited Europe quite a bit over the last 10 years and are planning on retiring there.  We want to establish a home base and spend at least a couple of months a year traveling throughout Europe.  Does anyone else have similar plans?

Yes, I have EU citizenship and we will likely make Poland (my entire family, sans parents reside there) our home base. It's about 60-75% cheaper than US. Quite a few other cheap countries there....Bulgaria, Portugal, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Belarus, Ukraine, Spain, Italy, etc.

Chairman

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2017, 10:47:38 PM »
My (Jewish) wife's grandfather fled Germany around 1937. My wife applied for citizenship reclamation and the Consulate rep said everything looked good with the application, so we're hoping soon we'll hear back that my wife and two children will have Germany citizenship (dual with US). I would be the spouse of an EU citizen, so I'm hoping that will make it easier for me to get a job somewhere in the EU. We will probably move there at some point in the future. We will have school-aged children so pretty much have to establish residency for their sake/schooling so I need to do some more research on tax implications.

Try to remember this once you get to the point of moving or traveling to the EU:

You will not be considered a spouse of a EU Citizen when entering Germany as the port of entry to the EU. That is because your EU spouse has never invoked her rights as a EU Citizen and cannot do that because she entered the EU through her country of nationality and German national law applies (not good).

Do not enter another EU country and telling them at the border that you are anything other than a tourist because of the same issue: your spouse needs to have invoked her rights as a EU Citizen at least once or national law of the port of entry country applies (not good).

Do this: enter a EU country, (that could even be Germany) other than the one you are going to apply for residency in, for a short vacation. This will permit you to enter the country and will automatically give you Schengen visa rights to travel to your destination country. Tell the authorities at the border that you are taking a vacation in their country and that is obviously truthful because as you are not planning to settle there in that particular country. You are taking a vacation and have a return ticket. Otherwise STFU at the border because nobody wants to hear the long story anyway.
Travel with your spouse to the EU country you wish to eventually move to to have a look. I'm sure that your spouse will be overwhelmed by the beauty of the place and will go to the authorities to apply for residence on the spot and she will for sure get a receipt for it because that's just the way I picture her.
Bingo - a simple attempt to invoke EU Citizenship rights actually invokes them and you as the horrified spouse will forever be treated as a Family Member of a EU Citizen with rights almost similar to your spouse's. Just keep the receipt or whatever evidence they can give you, proving that your spouse invoked EU citizenship rights. It does not matter that the piece of paper does not state that EU Citizenship rights where invoked, only the fact that they were counts. So almost anything that states that one was at the office and tried to apply for residence will work - even if it was denied on the spot.

For US citizens, it is really important to understand that immigration issues with EU countries need to be sorted out while physically present in the EU whereas US immigration issues generally need to be sorted out before entering the US. It is a completely different approach.

This is not legal advice and you need to research things before you go. I just want to alert you to the fact that trying to sort out immigration issues with EU countries before you and your EU spouse are physically in the country can complicate things enormously because you will not be considered a Family Member of a EU Citizen because they themselves are not comsidered EU Citizens but only nationals of a EU country, unless they have invoked EU Citizenship rights at least once before. Until that has happened you will be a family member of a national of a EU country and that only gives you the rights of the country of nationality and that is not a good situation.

I was trying for a short and clear response but...

Another try at explaining the problem:

Simply having the nationality and passport of a EU country does not make you a EU Citizen - no matter that it says EU on the passport. But wait that is not entirely true... Being a national of a EU country does make you a EU citizen - but lower case. That's because you do not have freedom of movement and residence and immigration rights for you and your family unless you have them invoked at least once. One has to have done that at least once and it can't be done upon entry into the EU because the borders are controlled by the constituent countries.

I'm not sure I fully understand this, but definitely appreciate the info nonetheless. My understanding, for Portugal, is that I would arrive on a tourist visa, then anytime during the 3 months I'm initially allowed to stay in the country simply register with the local visa office (or maybe it's a tax office). If memory of what I read serves me right, I think I'll get a card stating that I am the spouse of an EU citizen. It's that easy as I understand it. Does that contradict anything you're trying to warn folks about?

You do not fully understand this. The reason why you have to be careful about which country you enter first, the order in which you and the EU spouse make their residence applications, and why it doesn't work at all in the country of nationality of the EU spouse, is that you are trying to use EU laws which were designed to eliminate any restrictions on the free movement of EU citizens. The EU laws were not designed to make it easy for non EU spouses to immigrate to An EU country.
Every EU country has their own national immigration law and EU law only overrides it when the free movement of EU Citizens is restricted and restriction of movement of family members is considered a restriction on free movement of EU Citizens.

So you need to enter the EU without breaking any immigration law. Because the EU cannot be entered but through a EU country, you need to chose any EU country but your future country of residence to enter the EU for which the condition of entering of being a tourist visitor is true. This needs to be really true, which means that you are really planning a vacation visit and not just use the country as a transit country to your destination country. If you use the country of entry into the EU only as a transit to another EU country then the condition of tourist visitor has to be met for the destination country in order to be admitted as a tourist visitor.

If you enter the EU through Portugal (your future country of residence), the condition of being a tourist visitor to Portugal is not true and a tourist visitor visa could only be obtained by misrepresentation. If you do this, it will be found out as soon as you present your passport at the immigration office where you make your residence application. They may let it slide but you can also get into trouble and be denied processing because they do not have to admit law breakers. When my non EU spouse made her applications, the agent carefully checked that no Spanish immigration law was violated during the process of traveling to Spain. She had an entrance stamp from Germany in her passport and we had to submit a photocopy of it, which was filed and that was it.

Once you have entered the EU as a tourist visitor to the EU country of entry, you are free to travel without further formalities to all countries under the Schengen rules because the Schengen rules are under which you were admitted. You are now free to travel to Portugal, your destination country for residence. Of course, because you are not a tourist visitor to Portugal but a immigrant visitor, traveling to Portugal is a violation of the rules under which you were admitted. This is technically illegal, but as long as you travel accompanying your EU spouse, your spouse can invoke at any time her right of freedom of movement as a EU Citizen and this covers the non EU spouse going forward. But you need to accompany your spouse for this to work.

Only when you have arrived in your future country of residence in company of your spouse without breaking any law on the way there, do the rules you mentioned apply. You go to the local immigration office (that can be anything depending on the country: proper immigration office, police station, citi hall, whatever). I would be careful that the EU spouse submits her residence application first because that ensures her legal status as a EU Citizen who has invoked treatment under EU law is officially documented with a time and date prior to your submission. You need to make your application within 90 days of arrival in the destination country and you will be provided with a residence card. Your legal residence commences with the day of submission of the request independent of having already received the card or still waiting to receive the card.

There can be a glitch when you have to document your family ties. For example, Spain does not recognize US marriage certificates and require your marriage certificate to be issued within 90 days of submission of the residence request by the EU country of nationality of the EU spouse. In the case of a EU spouse of Germany, your marriage can be registered in Germany and Germany will then issue German marriage certificates on international forms whenever you need them. Check the German consulate website for information on how to do this by mail.

Wow. This just seems ridiculously complicated. Sounds like you're either doing something illegal on one side, or illegal on some other side. I hadn't heard this kind of analysis before. Other things I've read have just said "enter on a tourist visa, apply for residence when you get in the country, boom". In fact, that's what I've heard from an immigration lawyer too. Maybe they are just ignorant or simplifying things because it is practical to do so.

PeteD01

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #98 on: April 09, 2017, 01:08:16 AM »
My (Jewish) wife's grandfather fled Germany around 1937. My wife applied for citizenship reclamation and the Consulate rep said everything looked good with the application, so we're hoping soon we'll hear back that my wife and two children will have Germany citizenship (dual with US). I would be the spouse of an EU citizen, so I'm hoping that will make it easier for me to get a job somewhere in the EU. We will probably move there at some point in the future. We will have school-aged children so pretty much have to establish residency for their sake/schooling so I need to do some more research on tax implications.

Try to remember this once you get to the point of moving or traveling to the EU:

You will not be considered a spouse of a EU Citizen when entering Germany as the port of entry to the EU. That is because your EU spouse has never invoked her rights as a EU Citizen and cannot do that because she entered the EU through her country of nationality and German national law applies (not good).

Do not enter another EU country and telling them at the border that you are anything other than a tourist because of the same issue: your spouse needs to have invoked her rights as a EU Citizen at least once or national law of the port of entry country applies (not good).

Do this: enter a EU country, (that could even be Germany) other than the one you are going to apply for residency in, for a short vacation. This will permit you to enter the country and will automatically give you Schengen visa rights to travel to your destination country. Tell the authorities at the border that you are taking a vacation in their country and that is obviously truthful because as you are not planning to settle there in that particular country. You are taking a vacation and have a return ticket. Otherwise STFU at the border because nobody wants to hear the long story anyway.
Travel with your spouse to the EU country you wish to eventually move to to have a look. I'm sure that your spouse will be overwhelmed by the beauty of the place and will go to the authorities to apply for residence on the spot and she will for sure get a receipt for it because that's just the way I picture her.
Bingo - a simple attempt to invoke EU Citizenship rights actually invokes them and you as the horrified spouse will forever be treated as a Family Member of a EU Citizen with rights almost similar to your spouse's. Just keep the receipt or whatever evidence they can give you, proving that your spouse invoked EU citizenship rights. It does not matter that the piece of paper does not state that EU Citizenship rights where invoked, only the fact that they were counts. So almost anything that states that one was at the office and tried to apply for residence will work - even if it was denied on the spot.

For US citizens, it is really important to understand that immigration issues with EU countries need to be sorted out while physically present in the EU whereas US immigration issues generally need to be sorted out before entering the US. It is a completely different approach.

This is not legal advice and you need to research things before you go. I just want to alert you to the fact that trying to sort out immigration issues with EU countries before you and your EU spouse are physically in the country can complicate things enormously because you will not be considered a Family Member of a EU Citizen because they themselves are not comsidered EU Citizens but only nationals of a EU country, unless they have invoked EU Citizenship rights at least once before. Until that has happened you will be a family member of a national of a EU country and that only gives you the rights of the country of nationality and that is not a good situation.

I was trying for a short and clear response but...

Another try at explaining the problem:

Simply having the nationality and passport of a EU country does not make you a EU Citizen - no matter that it says EU on the passport. But wait that is not entirely true... Being a national of a EU country does make you a EU citizen - but lower case. That's because you do not have freedom of movement and residence and immigration rights for you and your family unless you have them invoked at least once. One has to have done that at least once and it can't be done upon entry into the EU because the borders are controlled by the constituent countries.

I'm not sure I fully understand this, but definitely appreciate the info nonetheless. My understanding, for Portugal, is that I would arrive on a tourist visa, then anytime during the 3 months I'm initially allowed to stay in the country simply register with the local visa office (or maybe it's a tax office). If memory of what I read serves me right, I think I'll get a card stating that I am the spouse of an EU citizen. It's that easy as I understand it. Does that contradict anything you're trying to warn folks about?

You do not fully understand this. The reason why you have to be careful about which country you enter first, the order in which you and the EU spouse make their residence applications, and why it doesn't work at all in the country of nationality of the EU spouse, is that you are trying to use EU laws which were designed to eliminate any restrictions on the free movement of EU citizens. The EU laws were not designed to make it easy for non EU spouses to immigrate to An EU country.
Every EU country has their own national immigration law and EU law only overrides it when the free movement of EU Citizens is restricted and restriction of movement of family members is considered a restriction on free movement of EU Citizens.

So you need to enter the EU without breaking any immigration law. Because the EU cannot be entered but through a EU country, you need to chose any EU country but your future country of residence to enter the EU for which the condition of entering of being a tourist visitor is true. This needs to be really true, which means that you are really planning a vacation visit and not just use the country as a transit country to your destination country. If you use the country of entry into the EU only as a transit to another EU country then the condition of tourist visitor has to be met for the destination country in order to be admitted as a tourist visitor.

If you enter the EU through Portugal (your future country of residence), the condition of being a tourist visitor to Portugal is not true and a tourist visitor visa could only be obtained by misrepresentation. If you do this, it will be found out as soon as you present your passport at the immigration office where you make your residence application. They may let it slide but you can also get into trouble and be denied processing because they do not have to admit law breakers. When my non EU spouse made her applications, the agent carefully checked that no Spanish immigration law was violated during the process of traveling to Spain. She had an entrance stamp from Germany in her passport and we had to submit a photocopy of it, which was filed and that was it.

Once you have entered the EU as a tourist visitor to the EU country of entry, you are free to travel without further formalities to all countries under the Schengen rules because the Schengen rules are under which you were admitted. You are now free to travel to Portugal, your destination country for residence. Of course, because you are not a tourist visitor to Portugal but a immigrant visitor, traveling to Portugal is a violation of the rules under which you were admitted. This is technically illegal, but as long as you travel accompanying your EU spouse, your spouse can invoke at any time her right of freedom of movement as a EU Citizen and this covers the non EU spouse going forward. But you need to accompany your spouse for this to work.

Only when you have arrived in your future country of residence in company of your spouse without breaking any law on the way there, do the rules you mentioned apply. You go to the local immigration office (that can be anything depending on the country: proper immigration office, police station, citi hall, whatever). I would be careful that the EU spouse submits her residence application first because that ensures her legal status as a EU Citizen who has invoked treatment under EU law is officially documented with a time and date prior to your submission. You need to make your application within 90 days of arrival in the destination country and you will be provided with a residence card. Your legal residence commences with the day of submission of the request independent of having already received the card or still waiting to receive the card.

There can be a glitch when you have to document your family ties. For example, Spain does not recognize US marriage certificates and require your marriage certificate to be issued within 90 days of submission of the residence request by the EU country of nationality of the EU spouse. In the case of a EU spouse of Germany, your marriage can be registered in Germany and Germany will then issue German marriage certificates on international forms whenever you need them. Check the German consulate website for information on how to do this by mail.

Wow. This just seems ridiculously complicated. Sounds like you're either doing something illegal on one side, or illegal on some other side. I hadn't heard this kind of analysis before. Other things I've read have just said "enter on a tourist visa, apply for residence when you get in the country, boom". In fact, that's what I've heard from an immigration lawyer too. Maybe they are just ignorant or simplifying things because it is practical to do so.

If you entered a country with the intent to immigrate but obtained entry by declaring the reason of travel to be tourism implies lying to the border authorities - there is no question about that.
There are probably countries where the authorities simply do not care that one lied during the first contact with an official of that country. There are unquestionably countries where they care a lot about lying to the immigration authorities and the problem is the lie is glaringly obvious when one presents the residence application and it provides the authorities with the opportunity to deny one the rights to reside in the country if the offense is severe enough under the national law of the country.

Here are the three reasons for which a EU country other than the EU country of nationality of the EU spouse can refuse to grant residence rights to a Family Member of a EU Citizen:

1) Insufficient means to support oneself either through the EU spouse or through ones own means. Sufficient means for Family Members of EU Citizens means funds exceeding the income below which a citizen of the country becomes eligible for welfare type support. It is a low bar in many countries, but not in all.

2) Lack of conforming health insurance. Conforming in this context means insurance coverage providing at least the same coverage health insurance obtained in the country or health services provided by the public health system of the country has to provide as a minimum under the law of the land. There are major differences regarding the level of services covered between EU countries but one can easily buy international health insurance conforming to the country of residence.

3) Criminals or persons considered a threat to public order, public health etc. do not have to be granted residence under EU law otherwise applicable to Family Members of EU Citizens.

As one can see, each of the three conditions has some relation to the host countries national laws or regulations but when the conditions are met, EU law overrides national law and no further conditions can be imposed. This is absolute, meaning that the host country has no legal ground whatsover to deny residence and all that's left is for one to do is to exercise ones rights under EU law.

So if you do what that "immigration lawyer" told you, it may turn out that you will need his counsel to help you sorting out the mess after unnecessarily creating it. :)

Here is the applicable EU law. Keep in mind that some things just do not work well in practice, particularly the provision that on gets provided with an entry visa at the border on the spot after proving family ties and lacking any other documentation:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:02004L0038-20110616&from=EN
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 01:32:52 AM by PeteD01 »

havregryn

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Re: US citizens planning on retiring in Europe?
« Reply #99 on: April 09, 2017, 01:42:42 AM »
I wonder whether there is any good European country where it is beneficial in matters of taxes to live of your stock. Like where I live now, we need to add profit from stock sales to our income, about 28%. It would be smarter to live somewhere else where you don't need to pay such a tax. And what about property taxes? Is this common in all countries? Here is Norway more than 80% of the communities have introduced it and they are generally greedy.

Luxembourg is good for this but not for much else haha. Maybe if retiring with a really big stash and interested in rural living, then living somewhere in the north is probably cheaper (but still expensive for wider European terms but maybe not so much compared to Norway)  and you are still legally a resident of Luxembourg with all the tax benefits.