Urgent - Job Offer Advice - $3k Pay Cut, Way Better Benefits, Closer Commute

[MrsCoolCat]

Hi! More details later but I am being offered $3k less, $6k in their eyes bc of bonuses but the benefits are unheard of for me. 13 days vacation, 13 days PTO & 12 holidays. About $90/month for health, dental & vision. Same for all dependents, capped at $126 per fam. Deductible is $300/pp or $900 for the fam. 401k matches 4%, vested immediately. Details are 100% of the first 3%. 50% of the next 2%. And 4% of anything over 5%. Brb...

[mm1970]

Hi! More details later but I am being offered $3k less, $6k in their eyes bc of bonuses but the benefits are unheard of for me. 13 days vacation, 13 days PTO & 12 holidays. About $90/month for health, dental & vision. Same for all dependents, capped at $126 per fam. Deductible is $300/pp or $900 for the fam. 401k matches 4% match, vested immediately. Brb...

Personally I'd need more details...but as a mom with two kids - a better commute and vacation time like that would be stellar.  (Although I guess I do get 34 days a year, but that includes sick time).

But of course, I'd fight hard to not take a paycut in the first place.  Starting off on the wrong foot. 

[Kwill]

Could you go back and tell them you're really interested but that you need a little time to think because it would mean a $3k pay cut for you? They might be willing to come up a little bit in that case.

The difference is $250 a month, with the net difference a little less because the taxes would also be lower. Are the shorter commute, paid time off, lower health insurance cost, and extra 4% to 401k worth more or less than $250 a month? You should be able to figure up exactly how much the 4% match and difference in health insurance are worth. Plus the difference in commuting cost per month. So then it comes down to the subjective value of the time off per year and the extra time you'd have in your day. Also, how stable are the two employers?

[Sturton]

Have you tried to negotiate the salary?

[renata ricotta]

Hi! More details later but I am being offered $3k less, $6k in their eyes bc of bonuses but the benefits are unheard of for me. 13 days vacation, 13 days PTO & 12 holidays. About $90/month for health, dental & vision. Same for all dependents, capped at $126 per fam. Deductible is $300/pp or $900 for the fam. 401k matches 4%, vested immediately. Details are 100% of the first 3%. 50% of the next 2%. And 4% of anything over 5%. Brb...

$3k out of what? The difference between $27k and $30k is significant, the difference between $97k and $100k is negligible.

How much are you paying for insurance now, and how long is your commute? Calculate the value of your benefits now, the value of the benefits at the new job, as well as the commute, then compare the two. If you get even close to $3k worth of perks at this new job, it sounds like a no-brainer.

[slowsynapse]

Is the potential job change strictly about the money and benefits or is there some other reason you are looking to change jobs?  Do you think you would enjoy the new job more?  Sometimes a happier work environment is worth more than small wage differences depending on your income level.  Sturton's point about the stability of the employers is also a good one.

As someone in charge of benefits selection for a business, I can say that the medical insurance portion you describe is really deluxe.  I wish I could offer that to our employees.  The safe harbor 401(k) is also nice with the immediate vesting.

[2buttons]

Take it, with the caveat that you negotiate a $3k increase in 6 mos, based on mutually agreed to metrics regarding clear excellent performance.

[MrsCoolCat]

Hi everyone. Thank you for your replies so far! Now for more details. My current job is small, less than 20 employees, but laid back and things get done at a backwards and leisurely pace. It's my first time working for such a small company and my first time with such shitty benefits. Like they literally passed out HR handbooks that weren't official until recently so yes, my benefits were non-existent and neither were they documented! We went from having two really bad health plans to only ONE and they didn't even tell anyone. They just changed it. That's the type of company I currently work for.

They have some good points like nothing is really rushed and I don't have a lot of stress, but I hate the 32 mile drive round trip, the fact that they recently finalized 7 days for holidays (wow doesn't begin to describe it) and you get 10 days total for vacation, sick, EVERYTHING. It sucks. One of the things I used to enjoy about them has been updated for the not so great. You HAVE to be on time because one entitled young employee started coming in really late and leaving early, so now we all have to come in on time no exceptions. Oh and the health benefit is like $80 per pay period (paid twice per month) HMO (ha!) with like a $3 or $5k deductible.

Man, I regret not working for a big company, so here we are. The drive would only be 12 miles round trip, much larger company and a lot better benefits. I have to step out but I pretty much wanted the job so badly they knew and I probably screwed myself and showed it and maybe implied it, too. I didn't want them to hire someone else bc I asked for too much! BUT now that I have an offer ($50k) I wish I can at least make the same. $53k but I told them $56k since I do get a bonus though not as much as what I implied. I want this job but I won't even be eligible for a review for like 1.5 years and right now I don't know HOW to ask. I mean besides just asking. Like how should I go about it especially with the awesome benefits. More details later when I come back. Thanks, again!

Lastly, I don't believe they are non-negotiable; I am just scared right now! I had a really bad job offer once when I was unemployed and the lawyer literally just recanted his job offer when I asked for like $3k more and mind you the pay was shitty to begin with, so it just left me with a bad experience about that. Once before I negotiated similar from lower than what I made to like I think $7k more BUT I was at a job I was comfortable with staying at, so I just went for it. Now, I am thinking about babies and the future I cannot stay at my current company with their crappy benefits AND the President is quite the odd character, too. More details on him later!

[Josiecat]

Don't even consider the bonus pay as part of your salary.  That is not guaranteed.  It's always some lame excuse why the bonuses aren't good this year.  Yada, yada, yada. 

I would ask for at the same amount you are making if everything else looks acceptable to you. Just tell them you are very tempted, but cannot afford to take a pay cut.  If they really want you, they will say yes.

[cats]

Assuming you can max out the 401k and that you currently have no 401k option, the 4% match plus a reduced tax bill should add up to more than $3k in additional income.  Based on that alone, I'd take the new job (but still ask if they can just give you $3k higher starting salary as well!)

[Jeremy E.]

Sounds like you already made up your mind

[MrsCoolCat]

Well, I want this job because of the proximity to home & health benefits. The extra days off are an added bonus, and I want to ask for a bit more to at least make the pay equal but should I and how to go about it bc I truly hate this part of new jobs. Negotiating is so Ahhhh!

I get a 4% match but yea my current company is not in a very legit stable field either, imo. Anyways thanks!

[tiger002]

Think about how much money you'll be saving on gas, that has to make up a good amount of the $3k, not to mention less miles on your car

[renata ricotta]

Well, I want this job because of the proximity to home & health benefits. The extra days off are an added bonus, and I want to ask for a bit more to at least make the pay equal but should I and how to go about it bc I truly hate this part of new jobs. Negotiating are so Ahhhh!

I get a 4% match but yea my current company is not in a very legit stable field either, imo. Anyways thanks!

I don't have your hard numbers, but from a back-of-the-envelope calculation, it looks like you'll be saving in the neighborhood of $3k per year on health insurance premiums and commuting costs, so if you dislike your current job, it seems like a no-brainer. Switch jobs.

You seem frantic, so I'm not sure this is an exploding offer, but most reasonable employers will give you at least a couple of days to make a decision. If you have time, do the math. Read as many posts on askamanager.org about how to negotiate for salary, and see if you can make up the $3k. Your previous experience of having an offer pulled because of a negotiation attempt is not typical, but you can reduce the likelihood of it happening by coming into it with a clear head and good reasons why you're worth the extra money. Start here: http://www.askamanager.org/2012/07/what-to-say-when-you-negotiate-salary.html

Most importantly, and if you possibly can, slow down for a gosh-darn minute and review your options with a clearer head. Sleep on it.

[Sturton]

Remember that something like 65% of men negotiate salary and something like 10% of women. So there will likely be a guy sitting next to you, doing roughly the same job, who is being paid more merely because he asked.  Step up and negotiate.  You don't have to be brazen about it and have it explode like the last time.  Something like, "This sounds like a great opportunity, a great fit for my skills and an excellent company to work for, I'm very excited about this.  Unfortunately right now the salary is a little short compared to what I've been making.  Considering that I have the kind of experience I have in the business, is there some wiggle room in the salary?"  Be sure to add some reason for increasing the salary, even if it's lame like "the kind of experience I have."  The studies find that when people are given a reason, they're more likely to give concessions.  When people were trying to cut in line at a photocopier, the one who said, "Mind if I go ahead of you, because I have to make copies?" got permission more often than the person who said, "Mind if I go ahead of you?", even though obviously that second person wanted to make copies too.  Anyway, give them some kind of reason to square the raise in salary with their subconsciences, and do some calm negotiation.  One thing to remember, also, is that in fact you're operating from a position of strength.  Obviously you're a hireable candidate, and pretty much any job is going to be better than the one you have now.

[MrsCoolCat]

I'll try to negotiate. Hopefully it will go smoothly and well. I just want the job even if they don't give me the negotiation that I try to ask for, which I know they can afford, but go figure most people hate this part of a new job... thanks everyone!

[mxt0133]

I would come back to them with a few question on some benefits to show them that you are still evaluating the offer.  The fact that they have made the offer means they want to hire you and should be willing to negotiate on some things.  From there ask them if this is their best offer because you are seriously considering their current offer and want to make the decision based on their best offer.  If they ask for something specific then mention that the base salary is below your expectations.  Re-affirm to them that you are excited about the position and if you do accept you do not want to have any potential reservations about the position or offer so you can hit the ground running.

At the same time how much you push back should really depend on how fair you feel the offer is and is it worth the risk of having them rescind the offer.

When interviewing for my potential second job out of college, I really put a lot of effort into my negotiation tactics and ran trough a few scenarios to rehearse my responses.  After meeting with the head of their HR I never gave them what my expectations are and just told them I would seriously consider their best offer.  I mistakenly already told them what I was making I was already prepared for a low ball offer.  When the offer came along they never gave me a chance to execute what I practiced because the offer gave me war a 40% raise before bonus.  I could have probably gotten a few grand more but I did not want to get too greedy so once I got it, I literally ran out the building to verbally accept and immediately fax them a signed copy of the offer letter.

[MrsCoolCat]

Sounds good! Thanks!

Did I mention I wouldn't be eligible for a review until like 1.5 yrs bc they do it annually? Not that I'd bet my life or hard work on the review, but I will prob bring that up & like others said I feel that I am more than qualified or have the education, etc. Yes, I want to start off by reiterating that I am very excited after reading their benefits package. I was also advised by my HR friend to ask them if the salary is negotiable bc I also don't believe that is their final.and best offer. Thanks everyone!!!

[MrsCoolCat]

Update! I asked if the salary was negotiable & the HR guy said yes & that he will ask since the worst that can happen is that Compensation says no, so I am hopeful if anything they will not rescind the offer. I asked to match my current salary at $6k more than their offer and figured I'll either get it or they meet me 1/2 way at $3k. Ty everyone for ur advice & opinions! 😊

[Slow&Steady]

I started a new job in Aug and did the comparison below.  It required me to ask for very detailed information about the benefits, which I think showed them that I was very seriously considering the job.  When I asked for that detailed information I also asked if there was any room for negotiation if my comparison didn't support a move to the new company.

Old Job
Salary (potential to make straight time OT but rarely had the opportunity) = $65k annual
401k match 0.5% up to 6% (they put in 3%) = $1950 annual
Insurance for entire family = $2500 annual (my cost)
HSA company contribution = $700 annual
Grad School Tuition = 100% refundable after class was passed with requirement to stay 2 years after completion
Commute = 60-90 mins and always traffic
Total annual compensation = $65150 annual

New Job
Salary (no OT) = $65k annual
Up to 5% Bonus = $3250 annul
401k 3% safe harbor contribution = $1950 annual
401k match 0.5% up to 6% (they put in 3%) = $1950 annual
Insurance for entire family = $1200 annual (my cost)
HSA company contribution = $625 annual
Wellness bonus = $250 annual
Commute = 45 mins and never any traffic!!!
Grad School Tuition = 100% prepayment with requirement to stay 2 years after completion
Total annual compensation = $71825

As you can see the initial annual salary did not look promising but once I did the comparison, the only thing I ended up asking for was for them to match my current 3 weeks of vacation because the initial offer only included 2 weeks.  I was not comfortable asking for additional salary because I knew the top of the range they were look at was 65k.

I also want to point out that even though I started in Aug, I did go through the annual review process.  I have already received a raise (based on the annual review) and I got a prorated bonus based on the amount of time I was with the company in 2015.  Are you assuming you will not be up for an annual review or did they tell you that?  Maybe that can be part of your negotiation, you would like to be eligible for a 2016 review and raise.

[MrGreen]

Update! I asked if the salary was negotiable & the HR guy said yes & that he will ask since the worst that can happen is that Compensation says no, so I am hopeful if anything they will not rescind the offer. I asked to match my current salary at $6k more than their offer and figured I'll either get it or they meet me 1/2 way at $3k. Ty everyone for ur advice & opinions! 😊

At a large company where they actually have process and structure in place I would be very surprised if you asking if the salary is negotiable would result in them rescinding an offer. It's sounds like your nervousness is based on a previous experience with an individual, rather than a big company. I think you'll find the worst they will say is no but that their offer will still stand.

As for the benefits, the healthcare deductible only matters if it's needed so I'd consider anything beyond a premium reduction to be helpful but not a huge deal unless you have medical issues in the family where you know you'll be saving money there. The immediate vesting on the 401k is awesome. And the total leave benefit sounds phenomenal as well. Couple all that with the much closer commute and personally I feel like that's worth 3k but I don't know the rest of your financial situation. Good luck!

[MrsCoolCat]

I asked for the $6k bc that's what I wrote down I made & figured as far as negotiation tactics go they'd meet me 1/2 way at $3k... The outcome? 1/4 of the way, so I accepted for $1,500 less but already save $837 on the health ins bc I didn't remember I was paying like over $160/month into a crap HMO (compared to $91/month for this company)... And of course gas. No medical issues. Just thinking about pregnancy related expenses in the near future. Thanks everyone & yes, I'm very excited! 😁
Btw can someone explain what vested means? It makes no sense to me.

[Chris @ Saturday Financial]

When you are fully vested in your 401k contributions, it means the company match is yours to keep even if you leave the company tomorrow. Most companies have a vesting schedule for their 401k plan. As an example: After 1 year of employment, you are 25% vested. After 2 years, 50% vested. After 3 years, 75% vested. After 4 years, 100% vested. Keep in mind that vesting only applies to the company match. Anything you contribute to your 401k is always yours to keep. But if you leave a job when you are only 50% vested, you only keep half of whatever the company match has been throughout your time with the company.

[MrGreen]

When you are fully vested in your 401k contributions, it means the company match is yours to keep even if you leave the company tomorrow. Most companies have a vesting schedule for their 401k plan. As an example: After 1 year of employment, you are 25% vested. After 2 years, 50% vested. After 3 years, 75% vested. After 4 years, 100% vested. Keep in mind that vesting only applies to the company match. Anything you contribute to your 401k is always yours to keep. But if you leave a job when you are only 50% vested, you only keep half of whatever the company match has been throughout your time with the company.

It's very common to see companies with 5 year vesting periods. My current company is this way. It's much more common to only work for a company 2-3 years these days so you can imagine how that adds up if every time you leave you lose a portion of the money your company has contributed to your 401k. A company with immediate vesting is a sweet find.

[MrsCoolCat]

Thanks everyone! I'm so excited as I finished all the paperwork, bg test, drug test & finger printing today! I'm going to start in "two weeks"! I calculated & aside from saving $837 in much better insurance I pretty much get an extra 31 days off bc of their vacation, sick, holidays and admin leave. I also found out I get an extra 80hrs a yr just for being an exempt employee! Yea, I pretty much work for the government, kinda! I'm excited bc I know time is money so even though I'm making a bit less I can easily try to do surveys on my days off and heck, just spend more time with my fam, etc. which is priceless! Thanks for everyone's advice!!! It was much appreciated.

[Erica]

Thanks everyone! I'm so excited as I finished all the paperwork, bg test, drug test & finger printing today! I'm going to start in "two weeks"! I calculated & aside from saving $837 in much better insurance I pretty much get an extra 31 days off bc of their vacation, sick, holidays and admin leave. I also found out I get an extra 80hrs a yr just for being an exempt employee! Yea, I pretty much work for the government, kinda! I'm excited bc I know time is money so even though I'm making a bit less I can easily try to do surveys on my days off and heck, just spend more time with my fam, etc. which is priceless! Thanks for everyone's advice!!! It was much appreciated.

Congratulations!! This was a fun thread to read. I don't see how you are loosing $$ though at all compared to your other job. Even if you didn't do surveys but made home cooked meals on your additional days off, having more than half the commute cut out, half the gasoline, lower taxes....better medical benefits so if you get ill you will pay le$$ out of pocket, you've at least broke even no doubt.But seriously, you have to be making a little more per month in the end.
Again, I'm so glad for you! Good negotiating too :)

[MrsCoolCat]

Remember that something like 65% of men negotiate salary and something like 10% of women. So there will likely be a guy sitting next to you, doing roughly the same job, who is being paid more merely because he asked.  Step up and negotiate.  You don't have to be brazen about it and have it explode like the last time.  Something like, "This sounds like a great opportunity, a great fit for my skills and an excellent company to work for, I'm very excited about this.  Unfortunately right now the salary is a little short compared to what I've been making.  Considering that I have the kind of experience I have in the business, is there some wiggle room in the salary?"  Be sure to add some reason for increasing the salary, even if it's lame like "the kind of experience I have."  The studies find that when people are given a reason, they're more likely to give concessions.  When people were trying to cut in line at a photocopier, the one who said, "Mind if I go ahead of you, because I have to make copies?" got permission more often than the person who said, "Mind if I go ahead of you?", even though obviously that second person wanted to make copies too.  Anyway, give them some kind of reason to square the raise in salary with their subconsciences, and do some calm negotiation.  One thing to remember, also, is that in fact you're operating from a position of strength.  Obviously you're a hireable candidate, and pretty much any job is going to be better than the one you have now.

I will say I asked in a very normal manner when the lawyer rescinded his offer. Honestly, per my SO the practice of debt collection law is "not prestigious" & the fact that the lawyer rescinded his offer was even shittier. I wouldn't have taken the job but what can I say I was practicing my negotiation skills and it backfired. Figured he just didn't want to hire someone that had the balls to ask for more. Mind you he offered me $37k so I merely asked for $40k just to see my options.

[bigstack]

while you got what you wanted... to those that read this thread I will throw out my bullshit line that I have used a few times. and it has been successful for me and a few friends, for raises at current company and new job offers. i did not originate this, i took what someone else said and modified it. the important thing is to let them first know that you want the job(you have to butter them up). the second thing is to let them know why you are worth more.

the below can be in email or over phone/or a face to face. and while the conversation might take some turns this is a starting point to get the ball rolling.
#######start#########

First and foremost I am very excited about the job, I want to be here, This is the job that I want.
With that said, the experience that I bring to the table and the value that I have been able to demonstrate in my prior roles, warrants a much higher salary than $xxx,000.

In terms of my own research regarding this particular role at XYZ and other companies there is a range of $xxxk - $xxxk, and I think that given my experience and the success I have had in my prior roles, I believe that I deserve to be much higher than the bottom end of that range. So my aspiration is to actually be at $xxxxxx.

(Insert previous successes and how you have the experience etc , insert why you will more than make up for the greater cost.)
#############end#########

my feelings on starting pay at most large companies or well companies in general is that starting pay determines your pay for the rest of the time you are there. cause most companies give % raises. and we all know the power of compounding.
also if a company is not willing to negotiate or says that is the highest they can go then run. the reason in my mind that they say this is that they can not afford you and likely any raises in the future OR that they are cheapskates and will make it painful to get raises in the future.