Upshifting near FIRE?

[Redherring]

I see a lot of downshift posts here. Something along the lines of “I am 3 years from fire and would it make sense to do easier job/ part time/ have spouse retire now while I keep going “, etc. And often these people are cheered on. Ok if that works for them.

I am thinking the opposite. We are 3 years out from our FIRE goal. Both of us have taken on new and bigger jobs last 3 years to accelerate our independence day. Our take-home therefore doubled, we do a +80% saving rate today. We are in the 1% income bracket.

But why stop here? I look at top exec jobs that potentially could again double my pay, even as we are 1000 days away. Why? First of all, I find that being aggressive on career and salary in my environment is both expected and appreciated. They (ie HR and top mgt) understand that game. So I push hard, set high demands, even as need to I pinch my arm when I see my pay slip on how well I am paid. Second, the higher you fly the deeper you fall. I count on it at some point in the next 3 years by getting into a job where it wont work out and we reach a mutual agreement to part ways. In that way I get a package and my RSUs out instead leaving money on the table by quitting on my own. Thirdly, if I want to back get into the game (for fun or purpose) later I truly believe an upshift and not downshift will make that easier. A I-wanted-to-reflect-and-redefine-my-life-mission story instead I-ran-out-of-steam story.

Unethical? I dont think so. I am great at what I do and do my job to top performance. I am not a slacker, do many things on top to overdeliver. I do care about my people and yes I do stress out, make sacrifices and have bad days too. But... it is means to an end .. I just hide my real motives and thougths. It is a game so I play it.

Others in the same boat? Or simply think this is crazy?

[big_owl]

It reads to me like you are reaching toward the opposite of FIRE - you like working and making a lot of money.  Which is fine, but it's sort of opposite of what most people here practice.  Which is probably why you don't read about it very often. 

[matchewed]

So you intend to have bad days and make sacrifices and stress out rather than not choose those things.

I guess what works for you works for you...

[maisymouser]

I see a lot of downshift posts here. Something along the lines of “I am 3 years from fire and would it make sense to do easier job/ part time/ have spouse retire now while I keep going “, etc. And often these people are cheered on. Ok if that works for them.

I am thinking the opposite. We are 3 years out from our FIRE goal. Both of us have taken on new and bigger jobs last 3 years to accelerate our independence day. Our take-home therefore doubled, we do a +80% saving rate today. We are in the 1% income bracket.

But why stop here? I look at top exec jobs that potentially could again double my pay, even as we are 1000 days away. Why? First of all, I find that being aggressive on career and salary in my environment is both expected and appreciated. They (ie HR and top mgt) understand that game. So I push hard, set high demands, even as need to I pinch my arm when I see my pay slip on how well I am paid. Second, the higher you fly the deeper you fall. I count on it at some point in the next 3 years by getting into a job where it wont work out and we reach a mutual agreement to part ways. In that way I get a package and my RSUs out instead leaving money on the table by quitting on my own. Thirdly, if I want to back get into the game (for fun or purpose) later I truly believe an upshift and not downshift will make that easier. A I-wanted-to-reflect-and-redefine-my-life-mission story instead I-ran-out-of-steam story.

Unethical? I dont think so. I am great at what I do and do my job to top performance. I am not a slacker, do many things on top to overdeliver. I do care about my people and yes I do stress out, make sacrifices and have bad days too. But... it is means to an end .. I just hide my real motives and thougths. It is a game so I play it.

Others in the same boat? Or simply think this is crazy?

I mean, it sounds awesome to me. I wish I was someone who was driven to upshift. My biggest question is, what makes this Mustachian? You don't mention that you are doing this in an aim to get to the point where you can consume less or more easily sustain yourself. The driver seems to be "I can make more money by working harder, so why shouldn't I?" which isn't a problem, just doesn't seem Mustachian. At any rate, if you want to do it and you think it will bring good to the world, power to you.

[Metalcat]

The people who post about downshifting are the people who want to downshift. You may notice that that's actually very few people.

What you are talking about is following a normal career trajectory, where you are constantly seeking higher promotions and more money. Nobody posts about that because it's just normal behaviour, which is very common.

If you want to go balls to the wall until you are 100% done, then cool, do that. There's no law that you have to be like the infinitessimally small minority who choose to do otherwise.

[Metalcat]

Maisy, I dont see how this is against mustachian behavior. For me mustacian behavior is about stop wasting money on crap you dont need. So stop the leakages on shit that brings misery rather than happiness. Sure people on my career trajectory typically are spendy pants. But hey that is a choice. You can make tons of money AND drive a 10 y.o car, live as a family in 1500 sqft or less, never go out to eat, etc. We do.

Malkynn. Ok. Did not realize aggressive career and salary pursuit was normal in MMM people. Usually I see a lot of complaints and evasions about jobs and working, treating it like an evil. My question, how happy are those folks? My point: make the freaking best of it and optimize that game while you are in it. Then flip it the finger if that makes your day

I think maximizing career and income is normal among most people, Mustachian or not.

It's actually extremely rare to voluntarily give up income and career advancement, and even the people here who do it tend to contemplate it an analyze it for a long time before pulling the rip cord.

So the only people who are doing it are generally people who have thought through it very carefully and concluded that it is in fact the best option for them. They are the counter cultural ones, not the people aiming to be as successful as possible.

If you think people here are against working, then I suggest you read more threads. There are A LOT of very hard working high earners here.

Some people here hate their jobs, some love them.
And in fact, I've seen very little correlation between hating work and wanting to downshift. If anything, I see the people who are most miserable in their jobs are the ones who go as hard as possible to be able to leave forever as quickly as possible.

It's actually the people like me who enjoy our work and have no interest in walking away from it permanently who tend to downshift. I'm very happy to work another 10-30 years on a part time basis, it's delightful and sustainable.

In the end, you do whatever works for you.

ETA: I'm not actually disagreeing with you, I personally think it's a huge waste of time and energy to spend many working years unhappy, I just don't assume that working harder and getting even more entrenched in a career is by default the right answer for anyone who is unhappy.

If you enjoy your work, then awesome, but then you really can't generalize your decisions to those that don't enjoy theirs.

[scottish]

Maisy, I dont see how this is against mustachian behavior. For me mustacian behavior is about stop wasting money on crap you dont need. So stop the leakages on shit that brings misery rather than happiness. Sure people on my career trajectory typically are spendy pants. But hey that is a choice. You can make tons of money AND drive a 10 y.o car, live as a family in 1500 sqft or less, never go out to eat, etc. We do.

Malkynn. Ok. Did not realize aggressive career and salary pursuit was normal in MMM people. Usually I see a lot of complaints and evasions about jobs and working, treating it like an evil. My question, how happy are those folks? My point: make the freaking best of it and optimize that game while you are in it. Then flip it the finger if that makes your day

Interesting.   What type of work do you do, if I may ask?

[ixtap]

DH is pretty much incapable of downshifting. We hit minimal nFI last year, but plan to build a bigger buffer. He is working harder than ever and very likely to get a promotion within the next 18 months. I just hope it is this fall, rather than next fall, since he often feels like he needs to earn the promotion after it is given. A promotion in late 2021 would make it hard for him to leave mid 2022.

[2sk22]

But why stop here? I look at top exec jobs that potentially could again double my pay, even as we are 1000 days away. Why? First of all, I find that being aggressive on career and salary in my environment is both expected and appreciated. They (ie HR and top mgt) understand that game. So I push hard, set high demands, even as need to I pinch my arm when I see my pay slip on how well I am paid. Second, the higher you fly the deeper you fall. I count on it at some point in the next 3 years by getting into a job where it wont work out and we reach a mutual agreement to part ways. In that way I get a package and my RSUs out instead leaving money on the table by quitting on my own. Thirdly, if I want to back get into the game (for fun or purpose) later I truly believe an upshift and not downshift will make that easier. A I-wanted-to-reflect-and-redefine-my-life-mission story instead I-ran-out-of-steam story.

Nothing wrong with your approach to your career but you should know that the typical RSU vesting schedule is like a set of golden handcuffs that will keep you working indefinitely. when you hit your FI number, you will look at the number of unvested RSUs and will most likely stay on at work, no matter how much you say you want to quit.

[Zikoris]

I don't think you're wrong, and that's not a bad idea for a hard worker or ambitious person, but for me? Hahahahaha fuck that shit, I'm not working harder lol.

[Zikoris]

Zikoris, fair enough, but think from this angle. Does higher position mean more work? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Hourly rate, or years to fire, oh yes that improves. So does the chance of profiting from failure. And yes, the BS increases exponentially. That is the game. Worth it? That is the question.

I don't think it's worth it all all, but I'm an outlier. I specifically choose jobs that are easy, pleasant, and have great hours that let me pursue whatever I want outside of work. My partner has the same mindset, and organizes his self employment to be only a few hours a day of enjoyable work and a ton of time for sleeping in and doing fun things. For people like us, that sort of plan would just never in any way be appealing.

[aspiringnomad]

Malkynn. Ok. Did not realize aggressive career and salary pursuit was normal in MMM people.

It certainly was for me until I got to the point that the stress involved in the next step up would have a materially detrimental effect on my happiness, while only bringing additional annual savings that were a rounding error relative to my current investments. I think that's probably the case for a lot of people here, but obviously, YMMV.

[nirodha]

It depends on the sacrifices required to upshift. Time with family? Health? Chronic stress? Hobbies and travel that only work while young and able bodied?

If you can manage to juggle those, growing your career through the end makes a lot of sense. Otherwise? No amount of money can buy them back. My observation of people in the executive levels, is they have lifestyle jobs. Food, sleep, friends, travel - all are dictated by work.

I've had some luck with slowing my pace of growth, rather than downshifting. I skip unwanted travel and strategically say no. I also outsource home tasks I don't like (cleaning, grocery shopping, etc.). I'm able to make time to do the stuff I like, but still get raises and new responsibility. My career is persisting much longer than expected, but it feels pretty ok.

[Metalcat]

Malkynn, peace. I do not assume people here hate or shy away from work. I do occassionally see the “how do I cope with working for x years so I can get out of this nightmare”. And I do feel for them. I guess I am fortunate in have a good paying job that I like. I simply play to milk that game, increasing the stakes in a very delibarate way.

2sk22. I disagree. My observation is that once you get into a situation where you are performing at least adequate but have boss issues or rub the board in the wrong they label you. Not bad and hence cant fire just like that but certainly a thorn in their eye.. if you play that well you can get not only RSUs out but a handsome package. Esp if your boss does not like tough talks. It goes for a lot of them.

It all depends on your particular job and particular circumstances.

For example, my career is completely structurally different from yours. I have no ladder to climb. The only way for me to make significantly more money is to leverage myself by a few million, dramatically drop my income for the next decade, while working much longer hours, under intense pressure, and doing a lot of bitch work I don't want to do.

No thanks.

My point is, we're all different, we all have different priorities, different goals, and different careers with different challenges. Going full tilt to try and get as much career advancement as possible is what's right for you, downshifting is what's right for others like me.

We all have to find our own balance, and the downshifters tend to be particularly stringent about analyzing that the option is right for them.

[Morning Glory]

I thought this thread was going to be about pensions. Some places have a pension that is calculated on the final three years or best three years salary. In that case it would make sense to downshift while kids are little then go back to full time for three years prior to retirement, at whatever age that might be.

[Metalcat]

I thought this thread was going to be about pensions. Some places have a pension that is calculated on the final three years or best three years salary. In that case it would make sense to downshift while kids are little then go back to full time for three years prior to retirement, at whatever age that might be.

Good point, DH is pensioned and has no interest in a late career downshift for this very reason. That and he really enjoys his work and has a super low stress life, rarely has to work a minute over 37.5hrs/week.

That said, he has zero interest in moving up and making more money. He's a Fed and although 12 years from retirement he's already hit the highest level that he would ever want. If he moves up the food chain into the executive level, his job opportunities and career flexibility actually plummet, and the work becomes a lot less interesting in many ways.

[Spitfire]

OP, nothing wrong with your plan IMO. Higher income can accelerate your path to FIRE, sometimes substantially. I'm in the lazy/comfortable camp, but if I had the drive to go after bigger and better opportunities I would do so.

[Much Fishing to Do]

I think these are fairly common thoughts/choices at differing degrees.  You sound like a work hard/play hard person, and boredom at work probably gets to you more than stress, so this makes sense as an overall approach.  I'd say the majority of folks here push harder than they want to with work to get to FIRE faster (there's a lot more people here that want to work less and could go ahead and just work half-time/seasonal work until normal retirement age now, but chose to push harder to accelerate FIRE).  A lot of folks here try to do things in a way that increases the chances for an easier return to decent paying work if need be in the future.  If the increased income you're generating through this increases your savings a lot faster than your spending (and therefore accelerates FI), I'd say you still fit in quite well with a lot of people here.

[achvfi]

I can relate with you OP. We all have to play some sort of game that rewards us and but also keeps our sanity.

I can be way more productive and innovative, but it doesn't reward me. Rather punishes me because more work will be directed towards me. Having a reputation for being someone who delivers is a curse in my case. So I choose to play my game of achieving but not going the extra mile.

It seems like you are at a place that recognizes you and rewards you for your drive. Sounds like you know your game.

Good for you. Enjoy the journey.