Unsure about the "RE" part of FIRE

[SachaFiscal]

When I first came across the MMM blog, I was really excited about saving enough to become FIRE.  I went all in and got all nerdy with spreadsheets and felt really good about making changes that would reduce my annual spending.  It seemed like FIRE couldn't come fast enough and I fantasized about what it would be like to be retired already. Well as it turns out, although not quite FIRE yet, I may be able to leave work a year or two earlier than expected. By my estimates DH and I will be FI in a little over two years (unless there is a significant downturn in the markets).  He likes his job and wants to keep working (at least part time) even after FI. If I quit now, by my estimates, he would have to work a little over 3 years before we are FI. I am 40 and he is 41 so that means by 44 he could retire if he wanted to.  He is fine with this plan (actually he is excited about this plan, he would love for me to stay home and take care of the domestic stuff while he works).

So great, right?  But when I think of actually retiring, I get really anxious. I always thought those OMY people were crazy, until actually faced with retiring. I though maybe sharing some of my issues and worries might help me work through them.

I don't think I'll have a problem with being busy and leading a fulfilling life.  I'm fairly self motivated and have a lot of things I want to learn/do.  I do feel like my family may freak out that I'm quitting so early in life.  I don't know how to reassure them without revealing my net worth (which I don't want to do).  My Dad's side of the family are extreme workaholics.  I'm sure some of them don't need to work anymore (are probably FI) but they just keep doing it because they have lots of energy and love it.  I just really don't know what to tell them.  Some women in my family are mothers plus have full time jobs (they do it all).  I don't have kids and don't plan on it, so I am worried that they will see me as weak, or lazy.  Like if I don't have kids, I should at least have a career.

I'm not sure how to actually leave work (resign).  The people I work with have been great and we are trying to hire more people for a big project that is starting soon.  So leaving now would really hurt them.  I feel bad about leaving my co-workers at a time when they really need me.  If I leave, it will be burdensome to them.  I've been trying to train/mentor others over the past year so they can essentially replace me, but we're not there yet.  When I actually do resign, what should I say?  I can't think of any good way to do it.  I feel like they will look down on me, leaving such a good career in its prime.  I feel like I will disappoint some people who mentored me and thought I would go farther in my career (leadership, etc.).  I don't know what to tell those people. Being a woman in a male-dominated industry, if I stayed, I could continue to mentor junior female engineers and have influence on who we hire (i.e. more diversity).  So I feel like I'm letting people down by leaving. But I'm really burnt out and don't want to do this work anymore.

I sometimes use work as an excuse not to do things I don't want to do.  Since I have limited vacations, I only can visit family for a limited time during the year. I'm kind of worried about losing this excuse.  If I have unlimited time, I'm afraid others will come visit and stay with me for extended periods of time.  Maybe, though, I won't feel so bad about this because I will have lots of time whereas now, I'm quite particular about how I spend vacation time because it is so limited.

The other minor thing I worry about is my relationship with DH.  I worry a little bit that we won't be as in-sync anymore with him working and me not working. Also I am a really independent woman and being a housewife seems a little weird to me (although I do love to cook and maintain the household).  But this isn't as big of a worry as the other things.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[firelight]

Can you take a sabbatical of a few months or a year and test drive RE part? It'll give you an idea to see if you really like RE or prefer working a bit more. For all you know, you night love being retired and not go back! Or decide that all the factors you listed above makes working a bit more worth the effort.

[SachaFiscal]

A sabbatical is a possibility.  I did take a sabbatical about three years ago and loved it. That was when I decided I wanted to retire early.  But the things I'm really worried about are about how to permanently leave my career.  Like what to say to people at work when I resign and what to say to family members.

[HAPPYINAZ]

Sounds like you need to figure out what you really want to do and then not worry about what others think.  Do you really want to keep working because others think you should?  Don't make decisions based on others that don't really matter in your life.  Discuss it with your husband and if he is on board and RE is what you really want to do, who cares what others think?  And regarding leaving your job, will there ever really be a time that will be good to leave? You can always find reasons that they "need" you there, but in reality, they will be fine without you.  If you want to stay at work so you can help others, then fine, stay, but don't stay because you worry you are letting others down.  Live the life you want, not one others think you should.  Maybe by retiring early you could help more female engineers with their careers by coaching them earlier?  You don't have to do it for pay.  You could go to universities and talk with those training in that career or help graduates find great jobs.   

[Libertea]

You are obviously a methodical planner type of person, which is why/how you're in the position to RE in the first place.  So maybe you need to apply some of that same planning ability to your post-work life.  I can tell you (speaking as a woman your age also coming from a high power career) that a big part of my psychological discomfort with the idea of RE has been my initial lack of an equally well-laid out plan (or any plan, really) for RE.  Not that RE needs to be have a major plan per se, but if you had something to retire TO (besides just, oh, I'm going to be at home alone all day), I think you'd feel less uncomfortable.  So maybe brainstorm a bit about what your ideal RE life would look like: PT work, new (less stressful/time-consuming) career, volunteering, etc.  Whatever you want to do is fair game, just so long as you can develop the plan to the point where you can say to people (and to yourself), "Oh, yes, I'm quitting my engineering job to go do X, Y, or Z."

In my case, I am switching jobs to something less well compensated but hopefully more enjoyable.  And I may go on to another career switch at some point if I decide this job isn't the one either; I'm giving myself a year, and then I'll reassess.

[Spork]

First off: Take some time and really try to think if RE is what you want.  It sounds like you're wrestling with yourself.  I am not sure if that is guilt over leaving your job (and probably friends you have contact with every day) or if that is doubt about whether you want to RE.  It's a personal decision... there's not one right answer for everyone.

As to how to leave work...  That depends on your relationship with your manager/director/vp/etc.  In my case, I brought up the idea probably a year in advance.  It was in a review and he asked "where do you want to be a year from now?" and I flat out said "Retired."  We worked from there.

As for your relationship... you're the best judge here.  My DW left the work force several years before me.  There was no strife.  It was all just fine.

I also think the world has created a negative connotation with "housewife."  Okay, I don't particularly like that term either.  But there is also just not a damn thing wrong with "the job" if it is something you want to do.  When DW quit, she became quite the gourmet cook.  She gardened.  She managed our finances and researched investments.  She cherry-picked grocery store sales.  Without a doubt, her efforts at home were a huge part of our success in reaching FIRE as a couple. 

[SachaFiscal]

Thanks for all the great replies!

@happyinaz Thanks for the pep-talk. Yes you are right, I do need to just do what I think is right for me regardless of what others think. They will probably be fine without me. And helping younger women succeed in their careers in some alternative way (other than continue to work in the field) is a great idea.  One thing I was contemplating was finding a volunteer opportunity where I could teach young girls how to code.  I think that would be very rewarding.

@Libertea This is a good idea.  I think my ideal retirement would be a mix of artistic and musical projects, doing some volunteer work in my community, learning something new (new language, taking a free online class), and taking care of things around the house (cooking/cleaning/etc).  I just felt kind of weird about saying this to my supervisor/co-workers when I decide to leave. I thought about telling them I was going to work on some "personal projects" but then they would ask what they were and they might say, well can't you do those things in your spare time and still work?  But maybe I'm worrying to much about how they will react. 

@Spork Your reply really helps put things in perspective.  It's nice to know that the arrangement of your wife retiring before you worked out so well for you both. I think it will be a good thing for DH and I too.  I'm on friendly terms with my supervisor.  I'm just not sure how exactly to tell him. Like what to say.  Saying "retirement" to me sounds weird at my age.

[Frankies Girl]

Sounds like something else to ponder over is how you might be a people pleaser. I am reading lot of what you think others want from you, what is expected of you, of how others will perceive or talk about you...

What is it that YOU want? What will make you happy? What dreams or goals or hobbies or whatever interest you but you never felt like you had the time and energy to devote to them?

Just because you are a woman in a male dominated industry doesn't mean you have to do the heavy lifting forever. You are allowed to quit your job and do whatever you'd like; that's what it really is all about. You do not owe society at large or the women at your job the rest of your life just because you worked hard and got to a place that there aren't that many of you. I am not discounting the efforts and progress you've made, but you're not required to stay up on that pedestal if it's not what you want to do any more. Step down and go live the life you want to live.

As for what to tell the boss... what about that you're taking a leave/extended time off/sabbatical for personal/family reasons? You could tell him you're taking a year off to go travel, work on a personal project, whatever. It's not a negative. It is something that most folks wish they could do. A year is long enough so that they may or may not even bother you about it (unless you contact them?). And the advantage is that they'll likely say they'll keep in touch anyway, so in a year if you're not super happy, they might be open to rehiring you.

If you are having issues with other people (family especially) taking advantage of your good nature, then one of the big things to work on is developing what is known as a polite spine. If someone tells you that they're coming for a month long visit because you can now wait on them hand and foot. You say "Oh, no, that's not going to work for me and DH. We'd love to see you for a few days, but I think a month is too long and I'm pretty sure we'd get on each others nerves if it was any longer!" And be firm but polite about it.

If they get pissy, that's on them. Just say something along the lines of "I am so sorry you feel that way. Maybe we can talk once you're in a better frame of mind." and get off the phone/end conversation, whatever. Of course there is never anything wrong with a few white lies - tell them that you other guests coming that same month, and you're going to need a break so they'll need to limit their visit to a week, or you'll be having work done on the house so how about from X to X date.... there are lots of excuses to use if you can't bring yourself to say "no, that isn't going to work." (Yet. Definitely work on building up the backbone).

You don't allow others to take advantage of you as long as you're firm but polite about it.

Although there is nothing wrong with telling family/friends that you're working still. Just tell them you're freelancing for lots of places and working in some volunteer work and hobbies in your free time and are now busier than ever... and gloss over the fact that you're not getting paid for it. "It's less than what I was making, but I'm enjoying the work a hell of a lot more now!"   ;)

[RobFIRE]

A key point that others have made is that I don't think you should plan around pleasing co-workers and acquaintances. Ultimately their views hardly matter.

In terms of work, it sounds like you have areas of work you like and some desire to help in terms of coaching/mentoring and supporting colleagues. So a couple of threads to consider are whether you could pick up part-time mentoring work (paid or otherwise), and/or offer to work for your employer on a freelance basis after stopping full-time work.

For stopping full-time work, best for employer is to be given a fair amount of notice (6 or even 12 months) so there is time to hire and train your replacement, and hand over your key work (assuming your employer won't try to force you out as soon as you say you plan to leave). And you could offer to be available on a freelance basis for the work you most enjoy/consider most valuable, without having to make firm commitments. As you don't necessarily need the money you don't have to accept the work and/or can offer a lower rate for the work you want (if cost is an issue for your employer).

For co-workers and acquaintances who want to know what you're doing and won't understand the truth, you can always say you plan to go freelance/have a business idea for running your own company etc. and so be justified in declining to say more to avoid giving away your ideas.
 

[Exhale]

I just really don't know what to tell them.  Some women in my family are mothers plus have full time jobs (they do it all).  I don't have kids and don't plan on it, so I am worried that they will see me as weak, or lazy.  Like if I don't have kids, I should at least have a career

Actually you will have a career (or careers!) though perhaps not ones that provide fiscal paychecks (instead you'll be getting paychecks in other currencies such as happiness, good health, good karma, and so on).

I feel like I will disappoint some people who mentored me and thought I would go farther in my career (leadership, etc.).  I don't know what to tell those people. Being a woman in a male-dominated industry, if I stayed, I could continue to mentor junior female engineers and have influence on who we hire (i.e. more diversity).  So I feel like I'm letting people down by leaving. But I'm really burnt out and don't want to do this work anymore.

You can continue to mentor future female engineers. With so many talented girls and women dropping out of the pipeline in HS and college (long before ever reaching the job stage), there's so much you can do to give back to the field. You'll just be moving your focus to a different stage in the career process.

I sometimes use work as an excuse not to do things I don't want to do.

Ah, yes boundaries. Never easy, but so important to learn. After all, this would've come up whenever it is that you retire.

The other minor thing I worry about is my relationship with DH.  I worry a little bit that we won't be as in-sync anymore with him working and me not working.

From what you say, I think you'll still be working and busy just not at the location where you are now. Also, this may be a way to expand and enrich your relationship because you'll be bringing new things to the table that he's likely to find of interest (plus being happy that you're happy).

Good luck with everything. I think you can create an amazing RE!

[SachaFiscal]

Thanks for the perspective.  I appreciate all the advice and support. I like the idea of working part time. I think I will contemplate this over the next few months and make a decision after the holidays about what to do.  I may ask to take a sabbatical in the spring after my project ends, or ask to go part time, or I may tell my supervisor about my plan to leave the company and allow plenty of time to find a replacement for me.  I'll reply to this thread sometime early next year and let you know how it all goes :)

[redbird]

I think the hardest thing would be retiring early without your spouse doing it simultaneously. I would worry about possible resentment/jealousy. Luckily DH and I did FIRE simultaneously. He is going back to work soon, for a short period, but it's for a particular goal. We don't need the money to live. So he was fine with doing it and fine with me staying early retired. I think that's a bit different though, when you're voluntarily choosing to work. A lot of people feel trapped in their jobs so they can afford to survive.

Either way, I think you need to also think about what you WANT in early retirement. What are your goals? Do you want to focus on certain hobbies? Do you want to get more fit? What do you see a typical day being like? If you know the answers to those questions, RE doesn't feel scary anymore. In fact, you will probably start really looking forward to it before you start!

[SachaFiscal]

Update...

I pondered my options and decided one day to request to take a sabbatical for a couple months.  I got it approved and will be taking some time off at the beginning of the year.  I was going to just do a trial of retirement and stay at home but decided to do a meditation retreat for a few weeks, too.  I think it will give me an opportunity to reflect on my life and make better decisions.

At work, I fluctuate between wanting to stay and wanting to go but more recently the wanting to go part is a stronger force. When I hear about opportunities at work, sometimes I get excited about them, thinking "I could do that".  But just because I can do that doesn't mean I should.  There's so many things that I haven't experienced because I've been so focused on work for the past 18 years.  I wanted to be a musician, an artist, a writer, a teacher.  All of these things.  I used to think 40 was too old to reinvent myself but I no longer think this way. I made a list the other day of all the things I wanted to do in retirement and it was surprisingly long!

So in a few months I embark on a little taste of ER.  I'm really exciting about it.  Who knows, I might just love it so much I just don't go back to work.
 

[azure975]

Some women in my family are mothers plus have full time jobs (they do it all).  I don't have kids and don't plan on it, so I am worried that they will see me as weak, or lazy.  Like if I don't have kids, I should at least have a career.

I completely relate to this. In my culture (Asian, or rather Asian-American) there's a huge emphasis on accomplishment and success. Most of the women I know have high-achieving careers and kids, though some are stay at home moms but at least what they are doing is considered noble. Generally people who don't work are looked down on as lazy and useless, almost shameful. Ideally I wouldn't care what people think, but it's hard to live in society and not care at all what people think.

I've been doing a lot of soul-searching around this issue (I'm still a few years out from FI, but like you I like to plan ahead) and over time I've realized that it's not necessarily that I don't want to work at all, but just on my own terms. I wouldn't mind working for myself part-time (I'm an accountant) and taking on only clients that interest me. I also am passionate about animal rescue work and plan to spend a lot of time doing that. So I don't think I will seem "retired"--even if I don't bring in a lot of earned income, people don't need to know if I'm working 2 hours a week or 40.

I'm viewing my upcoming FIRE not as retirement in the traditional sense, but rather the chance to figure out what I really want to do when I grow up. My career decisions were always based on the need to earn an income and never were truly what I wanted to do. Too bad I didn't have a trust fund so I could have done this right from the start!

[Metric Mouse]

Update...

I pondered my options and decided one day to request to take a sabbatical for a couple months.  I got it approved and will be taking some time off at the beginning of the year.  I was going to just do a trial of retirement and stay at home but decided to do a meditation retreat for a few weeks, too.  I think it will give me an opportunity to reflect on my life and make better decisions.

At work, I fluctuate between wanting to stay and wanting to go but more recently the wanting to go part is a stronger force. When I hear about opportunities at work, sometimes I get excited about them, thinking "I could do that".  But just because I can do that doesn't mean I should.  There's so many things that I haven't experienced because I've been so focused on work for the past 18 years.  I wanted to be a musician, an artist, a writer, a teacher.  All of these things.  I used to think 40 was too old to reinvent myself but I no longer think this way. I made a list the other day of all the things I wanted to do in retirement and it was surprisingly long!

So in a few months I embark on a little taste of ER.  I'm really exciting about it.  Who knows, I might just love it so much I just don't go back to work.

Wow this sounds great! It's awesome to see a plan like this come together.  It's never too late to try a new path.  I really look forward to hearing about your experiences! Hope you come back and share.

[arebelspy]

I always thought those OMY people were crazy, until actually faced with retiring.

That's where the rubber hits the road, huh? :)

Good luck with your trial run!  Let us know how it goes.

[mwulff]

I think the decision to go on a sabbatical is a great idea. Otherwise I would have suggested the part-time work as well. I just cut back on my working days so I have every friday off. It really makes a huge difference, and I don't think I'll work another friday in my life again if I don't have to.

[undercover]

Your concerns are very warranted.

Honestly, I think "FI" for most people here is a way to divert one hedonic desire to another, especially for the new converts. In reality, "FI" is just a very large purchase, disguised as buying index funds. "FI" or "RE" will not solve your deepest, darkest problems, nor will it be great enough of an achievement to dictate whether the rest of your life is fulfilling or not. It's just something that happens. It's good if you can recognize this fact this early on. It sounds like you do. "Great, I don't have to work for this place that I really care nothing about, doing things I really don't enjoy doing". That's pretty much it - the rest of it is up to you. Guess what? If you do enjoy the grind/your current job, that's fine. Having enough money to have plenty of choices never hurt anyone (or did it?).

But, I think you'll know when it's time to quit what you're doing and try something else. For me, I saved up enough to where I could quit a job and pursue entrepreneurial ventures full time. So far, I've just enjoyed exercising, cooking, reading, watching some shows, etc. You don't have to have a full schedule to be fulfilled. There will come an inflection point where the opportunity cost that comes with working (not enjoying your time/being stressed all the time) will be greater than not working. And maybe there won't. The point is that no one here can really answer when the right time is for you.

I do feel like my family may freak out that I'm quitting so early in life.

The point of being FI is being able to do what you want without anyone else's input. Yes, I know family is irreplaceable, but they will understand. If they don't then they're honestly not worthy of your time. You're not who your parents are. You have different needs/motivations/desires. Who cares what they choose to do with their time? They shouldn't care what you do with yours if they're worth their salt.

So I feel like I'm letting people down by leaving. But I'm really burnt out and don't want to do this work anymore.

Sorry you feel that way. Newsflash: you're not irreplaceable, I promise. There are plenty of people out there capable of doing your job and your company won't have any problem finding them. Your employers/coworkers may try to make it seem like you're a special snowflake, but that's because they would rather keep you around since it's cheaper/easier for them to do so. Also, people generally despise change and would rather not have to learn a new personality. You don't owe anyone anything. They don't owe you anything either. You have to look out for yourself. You're obviously a good person who will leave your work in a responsible manner, so there's nothing at all to worry about after you're gone.

[SachaFiscal]

So I don't think I will seem "retired"--even if I don't bring in a lot of earned income, people don't need to know if I'm working 2 hours a week or 40.

I'm viewing my upcoming FIRE not as retirement in the traditional sense, but rather the chance to figure out what I really want to do when I grow up.

I like this. I have a feeling that when I retire I'll have a lot of projects that will occupy my time and whether they bring in money or not, they will be more worthwhile than what I'm doing now. I'm really excited about learning new things and exploring new ideas. I am usually so tired now when I'm not working that I just watch TV.  I know that when I've taken time off in the past, after the initial decompression time needed, I end up thinking of interesting and productive ways to spend my time. I too mad looking forward to finding worthwhile things to do with my time without having the requirement that it must pay a certain amount.

Sorry you feel that way. Newsflash: you're not irreplaceable, I promise. There are plenty of people out there capable of doing your job and your company won't have any problem finding them. Your employers/coworkers may try to make it seem like you're a special snowflake, but that's because they would rather keep you around since it's cheaper/easier for them to do so. Also, people generally despise change and would rather not have to learn a new personality. You don't owe anyone anything. They don't owe you anything either. You have to look out for yourself. You're obviously a good person who will leave your work in a responsible manner, so there's nothing at all to worry about after you're gone.

This is good for me to hear. Over the past few months I've been looking around at my peers and I do feel like they are all very capable people and will be just fine when I leave. I've been scaling back how much I help people and instead I am letting them figure things on their own. I am amazed at how well people are doing. Many are doing a better job than I would have.

Thanks for all the support. I'll add another update in few months when my sabbatical is coming to an end to let you know how it goes :-)

[Kyle Schuant]

when I think of actually retiring, I get really anxious.

The point of this approach is not that you have to retire early, but that you can. It's to give you choices. Someone with big debts and no assets have no choice, they have to stay at their job. Someone with no debts and big assets has a choice, they can stay or go as they wish.

When you are at work out of choice rather than obligation, you see things differently. It's much less stressful. For example, I am picky about who I work with.