Author Topic: Ultralight backpacking  (Read 26796 times)

Jude

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Ultralight backpacking
« on: February 23, 2016, 11:47:38 AM »
I was wondering if anyone out there is into ultralight backpacking? To me, there are a lot of connections between this and Mustachianism. The general idea is to cut your camping gear down to the bare minimum. In ultralight backpacking, instead of dealing with dollars, you are dealing with ounces. Ultralight is "officially" a pack that weights less than 10 pounds, not counting consumables (food and fuel).

One of my favorite books on the topic is "Ultralight Backpackin' Tips" by Mike Clelland. Here are some sample tips from the book:

"#3 - Scrutinize everything! Do NOT simply put stuff in your pack... Be extremely meticulous with every decision-and every item... You either need it or you don't. If you don't need it-it doesn't go in the pack.

#4 - Make your own stuff, and making it out of trash is always best!

#7 - Simply take less stuff! Go through every item you might want to bring and truly ask yourself: Will I be okay without this think? This answer should either be YES or NO-never maybe.

#8 - Know the difference between wants and needs...Are you hypnotized into believing you NEED a knife [for camping] when all you really do is WANT a knife? [my note: he makes do with a little razor blade]

#16 - Never say "It's only a couple of ounces" - And never say, "It doesn't weight anything!" "

If you read through all the tips (including, "It's okay to have wet feet!", "Don't stop hiking just because it's raining", "It's okay to stink", and so on, plus all kinds of ways to trim your pack size), you really get a MMM vibe, as it applies to camping. Camping with a giant pack feels like driving an SUV to the grocery.

Northwestie

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2016, 11:58:30 AM »
It is amazing how fast your can travel when trimming down your pack.  I once came across two guys on the Ptarmagin Traverse here in WA who had no tent, just sleeping bags and a blue tarp on a trip that includes 5 days and multiple glacier crossings, up and over passes, and up to 7,000 ft.   They felt confident they had a weather window.  We took a tent - IF the weather closed in they would have been uncomfortable, or worse.  But it didn't and they had a big win.

lthenderson

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2016, 12:06:29 PM »
I like having my pack as light as possible but don't try to be ultra light. I usually am out for two weeks at a time and it is just too hard to predict weather especially during that time frame. I've seen more than my share of miserable ultralight backpackers over the years who just weren't prepared for the sudden polar front that moved through the area or the continuous rain, etc. For me, the extra pleasures are more important than 10 extra pounds of gear. A good slug of a fine scotch while sitting around the campfire with a million dollar view is worth every ounce.

mak1277

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 01:49:29 PM »
I'm close to ultralight...just under 12lbs for a normal trip. 

A lot of people think that going ultralight means spending a ton of money to get there.  That can be true, but some of the biggest weight savings I've made are either just leaving things at home (change of clothes) or making my own gear (cat food stove).

big_slacker

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 02:15:48 PM »
Not a backpacker but a mountain biker who does some epics so I understand doing the tradeoffs. Light kit is ok if everything goes ok. You have to balance weight vs eventualities.

Also, light kit tends to be ultra expensive, although of course there are cheap alternatives for some stuff.

I went light on my last ride because it was sunny and supposed to be short. Didn't know there was still snow at the summit, melting snow in the trees making it a soakfest and then unexpected leg cramps extended the trip back to the trailhead making it a suffer/shiverfest. That's 3 hours out, a week and I'd have been in trouble.

I guess the conclusion is: Light is nice, but be prepared for the worst that can happen, not the best. :)

Mr. Green

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 02:41:16 PM »
It's highly likely I'll be thru-hiking one of the long distance trails in North America immediately after FIREing. My pack weight without food and water is ~13 pounds right now. I'm making my entire sleep system since it's much cheaper than buying it from ultralight outfitters.

Koogie

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 02:53:36 PM »
I follow this guys Youtube channel.  He has done most of the major American thru hikes and is ultralight and makes his own gear.
Joe Brewer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8MSukCkJhc

think he has started a blog/website too.

fattest_foot

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2016, 03:46:03 PM »
Also, light kit tends to be ultra expensive, although of course there are cheap alternatives for some stuff.

I find this to be the case. Yes, leaving things behind does make your pack lighter, but there are certain things you have to have. Having materials that are ultralight of the things you must have are generally super expensive.

CheapScholar

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 03:53:37 PM »
I did some ultralight backpacking in the white mountains of New Hampshire last summer. I'd highly recommend the high huts run by the AMC, but it's not cheap (about $150 per night) but a once in a lifetime experience.  The huts provide dinner and breakfast so all I carried was snacks for lunches and some extra clothing and a sheet.  It was nice not lugging my tent and sleeping bag along, plus you meet some pretty rad people in the huts.

honeybbq

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2016, 04:54:40 PM »
No, because this is my life we're talking about. I live in WA where it can be dangerous to get caught in a storm or an avalanche. I ALWAYS take the 10 essentials plus I'm saving for a SPOT device.

I don't think you need a tons of stuff in the great outdoors, but you need to have enough to be safe and smart, and many of the ultralighters I see cut corners in the name of weight and the expense of safety. No thanks.

zoltani

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 05:06:27 PM »
I pretty much have to subscribe to ultralight backpacking because I'm usually also doing technical climbing. The base weight has to be low so when I throw on an extra 30 lbs of climbing gear it stays somewhat manageable.

I disagree with honeybbq, it is still possible to go ultralight in WA without sacrificing safety.

big_owl

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 05:36:05 PM »
Little owl and I do glacier mountaineering and a lot of backpacking so I feel pretty well qualified for this one.  I'm not sure I agree with all those points.

1. Make your own stuff, especially if it's out of trash....ok WTF is that?  Like what are you going to make that really has an impact on weight?  Am I supposed to wear a trash bag poncho or something?  Make my own rope out of hemp?  Sorry but just about anything I made would perform like crap compared to the newer quality equipment out there. 

2. It's ok to have wet feet?!  My ass, maybe if you only hike in summer months and there's no threat of cold temps and terrain is basically flat.  Wet feet are one of the most miserable experiences out there aside from possibly a wet down sleeping bag in winter. 

I've finally come to the conclusion that it's worth spending the extra money to buy fancy lightweight gear.  Feathered friends down bag, fancy expensive sleeping air-mat that weighs nothing.  Nice hard shells and compressible down insulation layer, synthetic base layer, quality tent, etc.  It just makes everything so much nicer. 

When mountain climbing it's hard to go ultralight because just the snow pickets, rope, biners, screws, shovel and other technical equipment weigh more than ten pounds.  We're usually in the 30lb pack range all ready to go when it's just the two of us climbing.  That weight could be spread out a bit with more people, but not all that much. 

Backpacking is a lot easier especially if it's during the warmer months.  We usually do our backpacking in the winter so more insulation is needed and all effort is to avoid wet feet and losing toes.

PS - it just hit me that I recognized Mike's name.  He also wrote a book called Glacial Mountaineering which I probably read about 100 times cover to cover to refresh on old skills - especially crevasse rescue.  I really like that book - very practical and not that much overkill like freedom of the hills. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 05:39:03 PM by big_owl »

Northwestie

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2016, 05:47:07 PM »
Given that the thread title is Lightweight Backpacking - I'll assume climbing is not on the agenda.  But I would agree that there really is some great lightweight gear out there - and of much better quality than you can make yourself - unless you are a great designer/seamstress.

Invest in good gear, take care of it, and it will serve you well over the years.

bobechs

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 06:33:34 PM »

Make your own stuff, especially if it's out of trash....ok WTF is that?  Like what are you going to make that really has an impact on weight?  Am I supposed to wear a trash bag poncho or something?  Make my own rope out of hemp?  Sorry but just about anything I made would perform like crap compared to the newer quality equipment out there. 



Okay, it has been brought to my attention before now that ultra-literalism is the dominant mode of thinking on this forum and any irony or figurative or elliptical expression is frowned upon, out of place and a black mark on the name of anyone who resorts to such kicking at the grim pricks...

And it's not my post to explain, and sometimes I don't even know why I bother...

BUT-- "making it out of trash" is probably a reference to the well-known ultralight diy cat-food can alcohol stove.  Yes, it is probably possible somewhere to get a cat-food can-ish receptacle replica made out of artisanal titanium and endorsed by a Big Name in climbing on Big Rocks, and that possibility has got to give a frisson to a type well-represented in the outdoor gear scene.

HOWEVER-- the usual mode is to salvage a container which formerly held cat food and now is of no further use to mankind or catkind.  This could be called "trash."  In fact, it is called "trash"; no real imaginative leap needed at this point.

Now, everyone can go back to the regularly scheduled programming.




kpd905

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2016, 07:03:41 PM »
Anyone looking to go ultralight, I recommend trying to find an REI garage sale near you.  You can get some pretty amazing discounts.  My wife and I got a Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 tent for $125.  Insane retail price is about $300-350.  The tent weighs 1 lb, 15 oz and we can fit both of our backpacks in the vestibule. 

nazar

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 10:27:26 PM »
I'm the lightest packer in my hiking group, but not what you would call Ultralight.  The best two hints I have is that 1) items serving multiple purposes win over single purpose and 2) it is often easier reducing the weight of the engine than the pack.  I can drop five pounds with a few good lifestyle choices, but getting my pack 5 pounds lighter results in some rather extreme sacrifices.

big_owl

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2016, 05:54:28 AM »

Make your own stuff, especially if it's out of trash....ok WTF is that?  Like what are you going to make that really has an impact on weight?  Am I supposed to wear a trash bag poncho or something?  Make my own rope out of hemp?  Sorry but just about anything I made would perform like crap compared to the newer quality equipment out there. 



BUT-- "making it out of trash" is probably a reference to the well-known ultralight diy cat-food can alcohol stove.  Yes, it is probably possible somewhere to get a cat-food can-ish receptacle replica made out of artisanal titanium and endorsed by a Big Name in climbing on Big Rocks, and that possibility has got to give a frisson to a type well-represented in the outdoor gear scene.

HOWEVER-- the usual mode is to salvage a container which formerly held cat food and now is of no further use to mankind or catkind.  This could be called "trash."  In fact, it is called "trash"; no real imaginative leap needed at this point.

Now, everyone can go back to the regularly scheduled programming.

I'd call that a hobo stove!  BTUs are BTUs so you won't save any weight on fuel, you probably need more since I'm guessing it burns less efficiently.  Can is definitely lighter though....I'll give you that much.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2016, 07:09:04 AM »
I don't backpack anymore, but I laughed when my hiking partner (who just completed her section hiking of the AT, at 70, she started at 50...) cut 2 inches off my shoelaces because it was extra weight I didn't need to be carrying.  (And weight on the shoes is the worst apparently....)

mak1277

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2016, 07:37:20 AM »


I'd call that a hobo stove!  BTUs are BTUs so you won't save any weight on fuel, you probably need more since I'm guessing it burns less efficiently.  Can is definitely lighter though....I'll give you that much.

There have been studies done on the weight of alcohol stoves + fuel compared to the weight of canister stoves and white gas stoves.  The tipping point is typically around the 7-8 day mark for a trip...alcohol (hobo/cat food) stoves are overall lighter on shorter trips and it eventually tips to canister stoves being lighter as you get out towards a week without resupply.

spokey doke

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2016, 07:52:10 AM »
We plunk down for pretty nice lightweight gear, so in that respect we're not the most mustachian...but having your major summer vacation as a week+ not spending any money while in the wilderness is badass mustachian.

I have a friend whose partner is way into ultralight minimalism...he suffers visibly just thinking about some of their trips.  We have scrutinized everything and have a good system down, but we are definitely sticking with a tent and the like even though it isn't 'necessary'.  If others enjoy themselves without, please continue to enjoy...

El_Viajero

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2016, 08:01:41 AM »
So happy to see this thread! My wife and I have done the UL thing for years, and we happen to love Clelland's book. We even made our own shelter out of silnylon once, although I'd recommend just buying one if you don't have much experience with a sewing machine.

We've done multi-day ultralight backpacking trips in Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, and Argentina. No pocketknives (a single razor blade works fine). No headlamps (just little keychain-type LEDs that clip onto our hats). Nowadays, I do most of my UL'ing in the North Carolina Appalachians.

Most people who think ultralight backpacking is expensive don't really understand it. Yes, the gear you buy is generally more expensive than the cheaper, heavier stuff at your local REI. But if you're really ultralight backpacking, you're not buying much stuff in the first place. Remember: it's all about what you're NOT taking with you.

Sweetloveginger

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2016, 09:27:19 AM »
I'm not into ultra light (yet) - but general backpacking, hiking and climbing. I love it, and would like to get into it more in the coming years.

I totally see similarities when camping/backpacking and mustachian lifestyle. So happy to see this thread!

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2016, 09:45:23 AM »
I follow this guys Youtube channel.  He has done most of the major American thru hikes and is ultralight and makes his own gear.
Joe Brewer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8MSukCkJhc

think he has started a blog/website too.

Lots of good info at Joe Brewers site  http://backcountrybanter.com/

The_path_less_taken

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2016, 09:51:41 AM »
I am not extreme ultralight, but do short trips where I know the terrain and weather with super minimalism.

But hiking down from Heather Lake/Desolation Wilderness (Tahoe) during a short snowstorm wearing a tank top and shorts, I thought the people hiking in with down parkas/50lb packs  were going to have a heart attack.

"Are you ok? Do you need help?"

"Um, no, it was just a day hike. Heading downhill should be pretty quick."

katstache92

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2016, 10:02:39 AM »
I'm just getting into backpacking.  I'll definitely take a look at the books people have mentioned.  I don't have much gear yet (I borrowed a lot last season) so this is probably the perfect time to see if I can make it work with an ultralight approach.

MsSindy

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2016, 10:06:33 AM »
I think it all depends on where your line is for trade-offs.  I started out with UL gear (purchased), and have slowly added a couple of "luxury" items to my set-up.  The one thing that I did make a mistake on was going for an UL backpack - that bitch left me with bruises and blisters!  I'm only 5' 2", so the gear gets really heavy on my small frame after a couple of days - going to a more substantial was worth the extra weight.  I'm still the lightest in my group, though.

Every time I go out on a trip, I learn a little something about what works, what I wish I had, and what has been useless - it's constant optimization for the potential conditions.

Luke Warm

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2016, 10:08:31 AM »
i just sewed up a tarp tent this winter. i reclaimed some house wrap from a local construction site to make my ground cloth but unfortunately no one throws away silnylon so the tent project ran around $100. i thought about making a down quilt but that's beyond my skill set. i'm hoping to load up the bike this weekend and camp at one of the local lakes.

Stasher

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2016, 10:19:24 AM »
Serious Backpacking, UL Backpacking and Mountaineering (which I do) is as far from being frugal.
We must ask ourselves if our financial plan involves this type of investment and will we really get the ROI

Secondly > Invest in education , 10 essentials and a SPOT or inReach Explorer (what I have as I like sat texting ability) before looking at any of the other items discussed here. Your life before fancy gear.

I bought the absolute best I can because - they last - they are the lightest - the quality is worth it
I saved up for these three items that halved the weight of my pack
Big Agnes SL Core down air pad
Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 tent
Marmot Plasma15 down bag (most expensive item and worth every penny for 15F rating at 550g)

When I plan to sleep below a summit in summer I drop down to a Sil tarp and Bivy

zoltani

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2016, 10:34:01 AM »
Little owl and I do glacier mountaineering and a lot of backpacking so I feel pretty well qualified for this one.  I'm not sure I agree with all those points.

1. Make your own stuff, especially if it's out of trash....ok WTF is that?  Like what are you going to make that really has an impact on weight?  Am I supposed to wear a trash bag poncho or something?  Make my own rope out of hemp?  Sorry but just about anything I made would perform like crap compared to the newer quality equipment out there. 

2. It's ok to have wet feet?!  My ass, maybe if you only hike in summer months and there's no threat of cold temps and terrain is basically flat.  Wet feet are one of the most miserable experiences out there aside from possibly a wet down sleeping bag in winter. 

I've finally come to the conclusion that it's worth spending the extra money to buy fancy lightweight gear.  Feathered friends down bag, fancy expensive sleeping air-mat that weighs nothing.  Nice hard shells and compressible down insulation layer, synthetic base layer, quality tent, etc.  It just makes everything so much nicer. 

When mountain climbing it's hard to go ultralight because just the snow pickets, rope, biners, screws, shovel and other technical equipment weigh more than ten pounds.  We're usually in the 30lb pack range all ready to go when it's just the two of us climbing.  That weight could be spread out a bit with more people, but not all that much. 

Backpacking is a lot easier especially if it's during the warmer months.  We usually do our backpacking in the winter so more insulation is needed and all effort is to avoid wet feet and losing toes.

PS - it just hit me that I recognized Mike's name.  He also wrote a book called Glacial Mountaineering which I probably read about 100 times cover to cover to refresh on old skills - especially crevasse rescue.  I really like that book - very practical and not that much overkill like freedom of the hills.

It is worth noting that in the book the OP references the author states that his tips do not apply for mountaineering or winter backpacking.

I hate the flycreek tent and any other tent with one front door with vestibule. Once you pile your gear in the vestibule it sucks getting in and out of the tent. I prefer 2 doors and vestibules for this reason. The tents are starting to get similar in weight anyway.

Stasher

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2016, 12:36:25 PM »
When it comes to Ul backpacking I haven't found a much better authority on the subject
http://andrewskurka.com

I honestly don't follow too close to thru hikes and the UL scene as my goal is summits not distance
UL goes out the doors as soon as I add crampons, ice axe, rope, trad gear , harness and helmet to my backpack!

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2016, 02:07:23 PM »
I was wondering if anyone out there is into ultralight backpacking? To me, there are a lot of connections between this and Mustachianism. The general idea is to cut your camping gear down to the bare minimum. In ultralight backpacking, instead of dealing with dollars, you are dealing with ounces. Ultralight is "officially" a pack that weights less than 10 pounds, not counting consumables (food and fuel).

One of my favorite books on the topic is "Ultralight Backpackin' Tips" by Mike Clelland. Here are some sample tips from the book:

"#3 - Scrutinize everything! Do NOT simply put stuff in your pack... Be extremely meticulous with every decision-and every item... You either need it or you don't. If you don't need it-it doesn't go in the pack.

#4 - Make your own stuff, and making it out of trash is always best!

#7 - Simply take less stuff! Go through every item you might want to bring and truly ask yourself: Will I be okay without this think? This answer should either be YES or NO-never maybe.

#8 - Know the difference between wants and needs...Are you hypnotized into believing you NEED a knife [for camping] when all you really do is WANT a knife? [my note: he makes do with a little razor blade]

#16 - Never say "It's only a couple of ounces" - And never say, "It doesn't weight anything!" "

If you read through all the tips (including, "It's okay to have wet feet!", "Don't stop hiking just because it's raining", "It's okay to stink", and so on, plus all kinds of ways to trim your pack size), you really get a MMM vibe, as it applies to camping. Camping with a giant pack feels like driving an SUV to the grocery.


Did you pack the book?

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2016, 02:18:51 PM »
Following - Appalachian is on bucket list (doing first, very short, segment in May) and may add PCT if/when we relocate west. Haven't backpacked in 20+ years and know very little at this point other than that tech has advanced dramatically.

big_owl

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2016, 04:10:58 PM »


I'd call that a hobo stove!  BTUs are BTUs so you won't save any weight on fuel, you probably need more since I'm guessing it burns less efficiently.  Can is definitely lighter though....I'll give you that much.

There have been studies done on the weight of alcohol stoves + fuel compared to the weight of canister stoves and white gas stoves.  The tipping point is typically around the 7-8 day mark for a trip...alcohol (hobo/cat food) stoves are overall lighter on shorter trips and it eventually tips to canister stoves being lighter as you get out towards a week without resupply.

Can you point to any of the studies?  I'm curious as to their reasoning.  My guess is it's proportional to the amount of fuel you have to carry since a short trip wouldn't require much fuel and the weight of the stove itself would be the overriding factor.  As you have to carry more fuel then it balances out and eventually the white gas stove is a better trade-off.  That would make sense to me.

human

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2016, 05:08:22 PM »
For a short two nighter in algonquin park I can get my base weight under 10 lbs and leave the SPOT, phone and camera at home because my girlfriend knows exactly when to expect me.

A longer trip in an area I haven't been to I might throw in a camera, kindle and maybe camp shoes for some luxury, but base weight still stays pretty low. Unless I need a bear canister or I'm carrying food for two, then I bring a heavy McHale pack which is just more comfortable for 10 days of food and a canister.

Not sure why people think you can't have the 10 essentials under ten pounds, it's pretty easy. If you can budget for early retirement you can budget weight for ultralight, get a scale and start a spreadsheet on gear grams. I would have thought all you YNAB junkies would be all over gear grams.

Some people ripping the wet feet is fine comment are right that you don't want wet in the winter. The poster was obviously talking about summer, I think they are trying to say there is no need for heavy water proof boots or a second pair of shoes for water crossings. A pair of mesh trail runners will dry in 5 minutes while hiking.

Want under 10 lbs base weight? Just go with Zpacks for the big three, pretty pricey of course. ULA equipment has some cheaper and light packs and tarptent has some lightweight and cheaper tents

EDIT to add: Zephyr911 go to backpackinglight.com Great forum there, I paid once for a year's worth of articles and found some if it interesting but you should be able to find tons of interesting stuff in the forum, you can search those for free but I think you need to pay 5 bucks to post now. Tons of people post there for ultralighting the PTC and John Muir.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 05:12:02 PM by human »

Fireball

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2016, 08:25:37 PM »
Yes! Long time UL backpacker here.  Most 3-season trips I run a base weight of about six pounds. The parallels between Mustachianism and UL have always been evident in my mind. I suppose it's the minimalist aspect of each ideology.  Only have what you need. Scrutinize everything. Use your brain to do more with less. UL backpacking used to be very expensive, but it's becoming less so now.
 
 

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2016, 02:21:10 AM »
I'm another UL backpacker.

Please be careful with cold/wet weather!  I've had moderate hypothermia, and don't want any of you to experience that.   https://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/hypocold.shtml has some great info about cold weather injuries.

honeybbq

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2016, 09:20:09 AM »
I live very close to the PCT. Every late summer/early fall when the north bounders come thru people invariably are stuck in the mountains surrounded by snow they 'didn't expect' and they don't have any way to contact anyone and don't have the necessary gear to hike themselves out.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. It is hard. And most people that I see don't actually have all 10 essentials. They've made some compromises. And even seasoned backpackers (they've gone 1000 miles + on the PCT already) get screwed once they make it to Washington. I am friends with SAR members here. Some of the rescues are just comical. And we have lots of fatalities here, too. If people had possessed a SPOT device or even a compass, they could have been saved or hiked their way out.

Most of the time leaving something important behind just leaves to a miserable day or two or a hungry day or two. Sometimes it's worse. I am not anti-UL. But I think too many people have jumped on the bandwagon without thoroughly thinking about all possible circumstances.

accolay

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2016, 09:20:10 PM »
One of these days I would like to try to make something from Ray Jardine's kits

www.rayjardine.com

Jude

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2016, 09:39:15 PM »
Wow, thanks so much for all the replies to my initial post. I wish I could respond to all of them. Overall, I am more convinced that

I agree about the safety issues and can see how people could jump into ultralight backpacking without sufficient preparation, equipment, etc. One "tip" from the book I mentioned, which I didn't quote, is:

"Comfortable and safe are vital! Anyone can go out into the mountains with a tiny amount of gear and suffer-it's easy to be cold, hungry and ill prepared. Ultralight camping should be delightful, not stressful. The challenge is to succeed with only the gear that's absolutely needed."

One example that stood out to me is that the author heavily recommends bear spray in bear country, to the point of not including the bear spray as part of the overall pack weight. On the other hand, he's not a big fan of bear canisters, and uses a rope system that, he says, is just as good.

Also, various people asked about the wet feet and the gear out of trash. Regarding wet feet, he advocates river crossing with lightweight boots on, and just letting your feet dry as you go. I don't think he would suggest this for a winter snowshoe hike, and the implication is that the weather is okay. And as for trash, as others pointed out he's referring to the cat food can stove and the good old used plastic water bottles (not those heavy nalgenes), and, beyond that, using your imagination. The point is that UL gear doesn't have to be that expensive. And if you take good care of it, it will last you.

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2016, 10:40:40 AM »
Just returned from a 60 mile trip in Georgia a few days ago.  It was anything but light weight and I suffered for it.  Some of my gear is old and heavy.  My pack probably went on it's last trip.  It's an old Mountain Smith that is heavy dry, when wet from all the rain I hiked in it's unacceptable.   My shelter I love.   It's a War Bonnet Black Bird Hammock and silnylon tarp.  I use an extra wide Ridgerest as under insulation.   None of that will change.  The stove I brought was a white gas Optimus Nova.  I went with the heavy stove because I expected very low temperatures.  I've had canisters fail me in cold weather because the butane wouldn't produce enough vapor pressure to burn properly.  Alcohol stoves I only use in summer when I need less BTUs to get by.  My choice when conditions allow is my Optimus Crux with canister fuel.  It's just so easy to use.  My pot is a Titanium Snow Peak 1 liter with fry pan lid.  Light weight,  high capacity and easy to clean.  My sleeping bag for this trip was a 5 degree down Marmot mummy bag.  It is so comfortable and not really all that heavy.  In summer I have a 35 degree down bag that is half the weight and bulk.  My rain gear which I unfortunately used every day is Marmot Precipt.  Light and it works.  No rain gear is perfect however.  My Sierra Designs 750 down parka has served me for years.   It is very warm and fluffy.  It also is heavy and doesn't compress all that well.  Didn't really use it too much this trip.  It was rainly and in the 30s to 40s.  I only used it under shelter and still it got moist.   I also carried an Under Armor fleece hoody.  I love this hoody in cool dry weather for dayhikes or casual wear.  It however weaighs a ton and insulates very poorly when wet.  No more backpacking for it.  My North Face nylon pants failed me as well.  When new I could use them as ski pants.  They are heavy weight and when new would repel moisture.  Now they saturate even through they still look new.  Lighter weight more water resistant pants next time.  My Asolo Gore Tex hiking boots are fabulous.   My feet stayed clean and dry.  The dryest part on me in fact even though exposed to trails running like streams with mud.  I saw some people at a shelter 2 days out from Springer on the AT.  The ones in trail runners had terrible foot problems already due to constantly wet feet.  Lots of people complete the AT in trail runners they are just not for me.  My pack cover failed to keep my pack dry.  Mostly due to age and cheap design.  I'll need a new one prior to my next trip.  Maybe cuban fiber or other impervious fabric.  Next is food.  I brought too much.  I had lots left over after 5 days. Unfortunately I always do.  Water filtering.   I used a Sawyer Squeeze for the first time.  A Christmas gift from my son.  It worked great at half the weight and bulk of my Katadyn Hiker pump.  Camera.  I carried my cell phone as well as a waterproof digital camera. I didn't need the extra camera.   Next time cell phone only in a waterproof bag.  Under wear briefs.  I don't have expensive synthetic underwear.  My pair I wore and the extra pair I carried both got saturated with rain and sweat.  They didn't dry out and I ended up comando the last day.  Comando rubs me wrong.  Need new underwear that will dry easily.  My long sleve undershirt performed well as usual.  It wicks moisture and drys quickly.  I've used it for over 10 years on many trips.   Light sources.   I had 3 and that is 2 too many.  Two headlights and a penlight.  Only used one headlamp.  Knives I had two.  Next time only my Cadet Swiss Army will come.  Cat hole shovel.  Not permit required,  next time it's not coming.  I'll use a stick. Long underwear.  Love my Wickers underwear.  Waterproofed in my pack just knowing that I had something dry to wear at night brought great state of mind while hiking all day in pouring rain for 4 days.  Kept my sleeping bag clean as well having clean fabric covering me.  Spare socks.  I wore wool socks and liner by day and had a clean pair for night.  Went a long way keeping my feet healthy and dry.  Crocs clogs with no holes.  I use crocs as camp shoes and for stream crossing.  The first pair I've had with no holes.  Love them.  Weight is nearly nothing and protects my feet during that midnight bathroom break.  Even kept my socks on wearing them.  Worth that little extra weight for the health of your feet.  Ridgerest foam pad.  Light as a feather but so bulky.  I love how it gives my hammock structure as well as insulation.   I've used Thermarest pads.  Pain to blow up and deflate everyday.  Useless if you get a leak.  I've tried window shade material as under insulation and hate it.  Also useless if taking a hard floor shelter night instead of hammock.  The Thermarest is better for sleeping on the ground but the Ridgerest is bombproof.   I'll stick with the Ridgerest. Hat.  The hat I brought retained too much water.  I wanted a cap with a bill to hold the hood of my rain shell out of my face but I need a more replacement that stays dry. Finally the Pack.  As mentioned earlier my old pack is being retired.  I have a smaller pack that I use for Summer backpacking.   I'm going to try and modify my equipment list to bring less and get by with less.  In Summer it's easy.  For subfreezing wet weather it's more difficult.   Ive enjoyed this thread.   Lets do a MMM backpacking trip to Colorado!   
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 10:51:01 AM by Bateaux »

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2016, 03:58:09 PM »
Loving this thread as well.

Hiking the AT as a flip flop thru-hike is #1 on my FI bucket list. Being that this will be a few years from now I would definitely be down to meet up with some fellow MMMers for some shorter 2-4 day hikes in the mean time =)

spokey doke

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2016, 04:37:23 PM »
oh...and go check out backpackinglight.com - lots of good discussion and reviews there

human

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2016, 07:27:56 PM »
I live very close to the PCT. Every late summer/early fall when the north bounders come thru people invariably are stuck in the mountains surrounded by snow they 'didn't expect' and they don't have any way to contact anyone and don't have the necessary gear to hike themselves out.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. It is hard. And most people that I see don't actually have all 10 essentials. They've made some compromises. And even seasoned backpackers (they've gone 1000 miles + on the PCT already) get screwed once they make it to Washington. I am friends with SAR members here. Some of the rescues are just comical. And we have lots of fatalities here, too. If people had possessed a SPOT device or even a compass, they could have been saved or hiked their way out.

Most of the time leaving something important behind just leaves to a miserable day or two or a hungry day or two. Sometimes it's worse. I am not anti-UL. But I think too many people have jumped on the bandwagon without thoroughly thinking about all possible circumstances.

It's actually quite easy, going for a walk isn't as complicated as people make it out to be. It's pretty easy to get all 10 essential below ten pounds with basic internet research these days. Most of the rangers I've met in parks seem rather luke warm to the idea of the SPOT messenger so I'm surprised you insist it be taken. Most of the rangers I've met seem to feel that people use it too soon or that people back home go crazy if a day goes by without a message. That said I usually do bring one when I'm going somewhere I've never been before. In Alaska and Yukon I also brought a personal locator beacon and still had a 13lb base weight (brought along a camera, camp shoes, kindle, gps and beefier compass as well).

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2016, 01:11:43 AM »
Anyone that is really serious about going ultra-light should look for advice from alpine climbers and long-distance trail runners.  My general approaches to minimizing weight are broken down by different approaches, below.

Successful ultralight approaches:

- Conventional long-distance through hiking (Good examples from Andrew Skurka)

- The run it in a day, rather than hike overnight approach (self-explanitory)

- The non-conventional "shiver bivvy" approach (Good examples from Nicolas Favresse)

- The non-conventional "night-naked" approach (Good examples from Jean Troillet)

- The non-conventional "continuous push" (i.e., no sleeping) approach (Good examples from Steve House)

human

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2016, 08:24:35 AM »
I never understood fastpacking, there are already long distance events with people you can actually race at impressive speeds. Whenever I read about someone running 100 miles in the mountains at 9 minutes per mile I just think to myself why don't you try a marathon at 5 and a half minute miles and actually race someone? 8-9 minute miles is not running. Maybe I'm being a little rude and these people turn around and say why would you want to walk the trail when you can shuffle along at a slow jog?

arebelspy

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2016, 11:14:28 AM »
I never understood fastpacking, there are already long distance events with people you can actually race at impressive speeds. Whenever I read about someone running 100 miles in the mountains at 9 minutes per mile I just think to myself why don't you try a marathon at 5 and a half minute miles and actually race someone? 8-9 minute miles is not running. Maybe I'm being a little rude and these people turn around and say why would you want to walk the trail when you can shuffle along at a slow jog?

I mean.. if they enjoy it, does it matter?
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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2016, 01:25:56 PM »
Anyone that is really serious about going ultra-light should look for advice from alpine climbers and long-distance trail runners.  My general approaches to minimizing weight are broken down by different approaches, below.

Successful ultralight approaches:

- Conventional long-distance through hiking (Good examples from Andrew Skurka)

- The run it in a day, rather than hike overnight approach (self-explanitory)

- The non-conventional "shiver bivvy" approach (Good examples from Nicolas Favresse)

- The non-conventional "night-naked" approach (Good examples from Jean Troillet)

- The non-conventional "continuous push" (i.e., no sleeping) approach (Good examples from Steve House)

So funny being an alpinist that I have done all of these :)

As for the fast packing or fast ascents, these are often done by those that have done any area once and now want to go back and challenge themselves and see how hard they can go. We each have our reasons for doing things and the outdoors present a different calling and challenge to everyone differently.

Another good website a friend shared with me today
http://www.cleverhiker.com

honeybbq

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #47 on: February 29, 2016, 09:22:03 AM »
I live very close to the PCT. Every late summer/early fall when the north bounders come thru people invariably are stuck in the mountains surrounded by snow they 'didn't expect' and they don't have any way to contact anyone and don't have the necessary gear to hike themselves out.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. It is hard. And most people that I see don't actually have all 10 essentials. They've made some compromises. And even seasoned backpackers (they've gone 1000 miles + on the PCT already) get screwed once they make it to Washington. I am friends with SAR members here. Some of the rescues are just comical. And we have lots of fatalities here, too. If people had possessed a SPOT device or even a compass, they could have been saved or hiked their way out.

Most of the time leaving something important behind just leaves to a miserable day or two or a hungry day or two. Sometimes it's worse. I am not anti-UL. But I think too many people have jumped on the bandwagon without thoroughly thinking about all possible circumstances.

It's actually quite easy, going for a walk isn't as complicated as people make it out to be. It's pretty easy to get all 10 essential below ten pounds with basic internet research these days. Most of the rangers I've met in parks seem rather luke warm to the idea of the SPOT messenger so I'm surprised you insist it be taken. Most of the rangers I've met seem to feel that people use it too soon or that people back home go crazy if a day goes by without a message. That said I usually do bring one when I'm going somewhere I've never been before. In Alaska and Yukon I also brought a personal locator beacon and still had a 13lb base weight (brought along a camera, camp shoes, kindle, gps and beefier compass as well).

Going for a walk or doing serious backpacking? There's a difference.

To the conversation with the ranger, what state do you live in? I'm just curious. Most SAR folks I know would rather have people use their SPOT too soon than end up dead. An early rescue is better than no rescue at all. Yes, there are financial implications and there are always idiots that use it because they can't be bothered to read the high tide charts, etc. And to the second point, that's silly. You have to have a conversation with the person you are texting. Plans often change in the mountains depending on weather and trail conditions. Having a way to send a change of plans to the person back at home is important in the case of a real emergency. 

As far as bear spray is concerned... not a 10 essential in my book at all and potentially not very helpful if a bear is in your tent anyway.

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #48 on: February 29, 2016, 10:32:18 AM »
Yes, I'm into UL Backpacking. The trail is much more enjoyable this way.

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Re: Ultralight backpacking
« Reply #49 on: February 29, 2016, 11:46:21 AM »
If you have a SPOT you are more likely to use it when you are just having a bad time and not really in an emergency. I know of at least one case of this here in the cascades last year. IMO it should be a last resort device, not something that is used in place of good decision making and self rescue when appropriate.