Author Topic: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals  (Read 8447 times)

tipster350

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2020, 02:22:52 PM »
Wow, this thread went off the rails quickly.

I, too, found 8 firings surprising, as I've never been fired (knock wood), but that is for the OP to figure out. There are many reasons why 8 firings could or could not indicate a personal issue. High-flyer types, of which I am not, can find themselves on the firing line a lot more frequently than the entry level through mid management types. We are not here to dissect this situation for him/her, as he has stated repeatedly.

Even though I have not been fired, I've probably come close, and I've often been under a great deal of pressure in my job, with the underlying, unsaid threat a very real possibility. One of the main drivers for FI is to relieve myself of the worry of losing my job. Removing that stressor has been a huge relief. As I am now lean FI, I no longer carry around the worries associated with losing my job, needing to find another, and everything that goes along with it. My stress level is way down. I know I can survive if I never work again, even if it's not at my preferred standard of living. It is life-changing.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2020, 03:52:32 PM »
Wow, this thread went off the rails quickly.

I, too, found 8 firings surprising, as I've never been fired (knock wood), but that is for the OP to figure out. There are many reasons why 8 firings could or could not indicate a personal issue. High-flyer types, of which I am not, can find themselves on the firing line a lot more frequently than the entry level through mid management types. We are not here to dissect this situation for him/her, as he has stated repeatedly.

Even though I have not been fired, I've probably come close, and I've often been under a great deal of pressure in my job, with the underlying, unsaid threat a very real possibility. One of the main drivers for FI is to relieve myself of the worry of losing my job. Removing that stressor has been a huge relief. As I am now lean FI, I no longer carry around the worries associated with losing my job, needing to find another, and everything that goes along with it. My stress level is way down. I know I can survive if I never work again, even if it's not at my preferred standard of living. It is life-changing.

Agreed. I’m not quite at lean FIRE, probably 2 years away, which is very exciting compared to where I started.

dhc

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2020, 06:55:05 PM »
MrThatsDifferent, you got some harsh criticism, some of it based on assumptions that probably don't play out in real life. I bet that didn't feel great in response to posting about a realization you'd had.

On the other hand, I suspect the way you responded to those initial critical posts is related to why more posters piled on. By attacking back, even when others made valid points like the one about the harm misusing clinical diagnosis terms can have on those with that actual diagnosis, you made a lot of posters want to dig in and argue.

Now, on the one hand, that's part of a public forum on the internet. People disagree, and it's impossible to control the conversation, even in your own thread. And as annoying as that can be, useful tidbits can be gleaned even from those you disagree with. But, if your goal is to get the conversation back to talking about your insight, I suspect talking more about that insight will be more effective than responding harshly to each post you disagree with.

It seems like you've viewed all of the responses so far as black or white. I hope you'll see mine as grey - partially supportive, partly challenging you, and ultimately worth considering, even if you disagree with some of it.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 06:57:30 PM by dhc »

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2020, 08:30:44 PM »
MrThatsDifferent, you got some harsh criticism, some of it based on assumptions that probably don't play out in real life. I bet that didn't feel great in response to posting about a realization you'd had.

On the other hand, I suspect the way you responded to those initial critical posts is related to why more posters piled on. By attacking back, even when others made valid points like the one about the harm misusing clinical diagnosis terms can have on those with that actual diagnosis, you made a lot of posters want to dig in and argue.

Now, on the one hand, that's part of a public forum on the internet. People disagree, and it's impossible to control the conversation, even in your own thread. And as annoying as that can be, useful tidbits can be gleaned even from those you disagree with. But, if your goal is to get the conversation back to talking about your insight, I suspect talking more about that insight will be more effective than responding harshly to each post you disagree with.

It seems like you've viewed all of the responses so far as black or white. I hope you'll see mine as grey - partially supportive, partly challenging you, and ultimately worth considering, even if you disagree with some of it.

Thank you for your feedback. I believe I’ve been polite and courting responding to some of the posters despite the vile comments made, and they were unnecessarily harsh and cruel. I’ve tried to focus on the insights, as that is what drove the post, but some posters insist that there is something fundamentally wrong with me, to this day, because I’ve experienced 8 terminations of some type throughout a 33 year working career. The last thing I wanted to do was spend any time defending that, but I won’t have my character raked through the coals from a post highlighting insights gained and thanking MMM and this community. The bandwagon judgments went a bit off the rails in my opinion.

ysette9

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2020, 08:53:31 PM »
MrThatsDifferent, you got some harsh criticism, some of it based on assumptions that probably don't play out in real life. I bet that didn't feel great in response to posting about a realization you'd had.

On the other hand, I suspect the way you responded to those initial critical posts is related to why more posters piled on. By attacking back, even when others made valid points like the one about the harm misusing clinical diagnosis terms can have on those with that actual diagnosis, you made a lot of posters want to dig in and argue.

Now, on the one hand, that's part of a public forum on the internet. People disagree, and it's impossible to control the conversation, even in your own thread. And as annoying as that can be, useful tidbits can be gleaned even from those you disagree with. But, if your goal is to get the conversation back to talking about your insight, I suspect talking more about that insight will be more effective than responding harshly to each post you disagree with.

It seems like you've viewed all of the responses so far as black or white. I hope you'll see mine as grey - partially supportive, partly challenging you, and ultimately worth considering, even if you disagree with some of it.
I agree with the sentiment of this thread.
I am not at all unsympathetic to how tough it is emotionally to be let go/laid off (I can’t speak to being fired; that must be many times worse). It is hard and I can only imagine how going through that many times must be. I am glad that financial security is making that fear fade into the background.

I do read MrThatsDifferent’s responses as being black and white. Dhc hits the nail on the head here. Sure, being fired 8 times may raise eyebrows but it is really Mr’s responses throughout the thread that got everyone piling on and got this thread off track. It appears from the outside to be a pattern of not being interested in self reflection or considering constructive criticism/advice. The sort of behavior that could make one make vulnerable to not being a good fit in a work environment.

So where OP sees irrelevant side chatter and unnecessary attacking, many others are trying to raise their hand to point out a potential limiting pattern of behavior.

dhc

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2020, 09:34:12 PM »
<Snip>. The last thing I wanted to do was spend any time defending that, but I won’t have my character raked through the coals from a post highlighting insights gained and thanking MMM and this community. The bandwagon judgments went a bit off the rails in my opinion.
Ah yes, the worst part of the internet (and of many situations outside of it. That instinct to fight back when you feel defensive is one I know all too well, and also one that's only ever caused me problems. Guessing the same is true for you, and other than biting my tongue sometimes I wish there were a good solution.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2020, 01:22:40 AM »
MrThatsDifferent, you got some harsh criticism, some of it based on assumptions that probably don't play out in real life. I bet that didn't feel great in response to posting about a realization you'd had.

On the other hand, I suspect the way you responded to those initial critical posts is related to why more posters piled on. By attacking back, even when others made valid points like the one about the harm misusing clinical diagnosis terms can have on those with that actual diagnosis, you made a lot of posters want to dig in and argue.

Now, on the one hand, that's part of a public forum on the internet. People disagree, and it's impossible to control the conversation, even in your own thread. And as annoying as that can be, useful tidbits can be gleaned even from those you disagree with. But, if your goal is to get the conversation back to talking about your insight, I suspect talking more about that insight will be more effective than responding harshly to each post you disagree with.

It seems like you've viewed all of the responses so far as black or white. I hope you'll see mine as grey - partially supportive, partly challenging you, and ultimately worth considering, even if you disagree with some of it.
I agree with the sentiment of this thread.
I am not at all unsympathetic to how tough it is emotionally to be let go/laid off (I can’t speak to being fired; that must be many times worse). It is hard and I can only imagine how going through that many times must be. I am glad that financial security is making that fear fade into the background.

I do read MrThatsDifferent’s responses as being black and white. Dhc hits the nail on the head here. Sure, being fired 8 times may raise eyebrows but it is really Mr’s responses throughout the thread that got everyone piling on and got this thread off track. It appears from the outside to be a pattern of not being interested in self reflection or considering constructive criticism/advice. The sort of behavior that could make one make vulnerable to not being a good fit in a work environment.

So where OP sees irrelevant side chatter and unnecessary attacking, many others are trying to raise their hand to point out a potential limiting pattern of behavior.

Umm, I wrote the post and then was at a work conference all day. Looked at responses and there were 19 responses of people “piling on”, judging and attacking before I offered any response. So please don’t misrepresent me as engaging or encouraging these attacks. My post began with a admitted self-reflection and emotional vulnerability regarding my personal life, my fears and my weaknesses, particularly around bad financial management. So please don’t mischaracterize me as someone lacking the ability to self-reflect. Lastly, I have repeatedly shared that my current situation at work is stable, healthy and successful, so your and other’s insistence that I may not be a good fit in a work environment is currently unsupported. With your limited knowledge, you could apply that to my past but situations, organizations, managers, co-workers and people change. I never said I had a current issue that needed fixed, nor did I ever say that my current situation was vulnerable, I said the exact opposite.  So what is motivating you to insist that I have am not a good fit in my work environment? How,could you possibly read my responses, trying to make that point clear and still hold that perspective? And why should I be open to criticisms of past behaviors that are no longer present or relevant? And what’s motivating people to criticize when they don’t have all the information, and they were never asked for their opinion or assistance? Bizarre.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2020, 02:05:22 AM »
"So what is motivating you to insist that I have am not a good fit in my work environment? How,could you possibly read my responses, trying to make that point clear and still hold that perspective? And why should I be open to criticisms of past behaviors that are no longer present or relevant? And what’s motivating people to criticize when they don’t have all the information, and they were never asked for their opinion or assistance? Bizarre."

It might well be that you are a great fit in your current work environment. However, you said in your first post that you had been fired 8 times (I understand you have since suggested it might have been a lay-off or some other not-at-fault termination, but you used the word "fired" five times in that post). On a plain reading of the language, that would have suggested that 8 previous employers found some sort of fault with your employment. It was open to commenters to express that this might be reason for reflection, even if you are perfectly well fitted at your current employer. For example, someone might say "I have been in 8 at-fault car accidents. But now I am perfectly happy as a driver." Even accepting the truth of the second sentence, the presence of 8 at-fault car accidents might be cause for reflection.

As for never asking someone's opinion, I'm not sure what you were seeking in this thread if not people's opinions. Was it only affirmations that you were seeking?

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2020, 03:06:47 AM »
"So what is motivating you to insist that I have am not a good fit in my work environment? How,could you possibly read my responses, trying to make that point clear and still hold that perspective? And why should I be open to criticisms of past behaviors that are no longer present or relevant? And what’s motivating people to criticize when they don’t have all the information, and they were never asked for their opinion or assistance? Bizarre."

It might well be that you are a great fit in your current work environment. However, you said in your first post that you had been fired 8 times (I understand you have since suggested it might have been a lay-off or some other not-at-fault termination, but you used the word "fired" five times in that post). On a plain reading of the language, that would have suggested that 8 previous employers found some sort of fault with your employment. It was open to commenters to express that this might be reason for reflection, even if you are perfectly well fitted at your current employer. For example, someone might say "I have been in 8 at-fault car accidents. But now I am perfectly happy as a driver." Even accepting the truth of the second sentence, the presence of 8 at-fault car accidents might be cause for reflection.

As for never asking someone's opinion, I'm not sure what you were seeking in this thread if not people's opinions. Was it only affirmations that you were seeking?

The presumption being that these incidences, that have occurred in my past, are not things I’ve already reflected on and addressed? I needed internet strangers to bring clarity to my personal life from a handful of sentences? That’s remarkably presumptuous. Do you think I could have my present permanent role without growth, change, maturity and introspection?

I didn’t put this in ask a mustachian, I put this in general so I can share my insight about understanding that my motivation for FIRE was based more in security borne from past traumas, then a drive towards freedom. That was all. Another thread sparked the thought and it hit me like a lightning bolt, so I shared the thought and the the context so it would make some type of sense. Fuck me for thinking it would give rise for so many to feel obliged to focus on and judge the context, ignore the current reality and then chastise me for not accepting criticism that wasn’t invited or has no present value, since nothing now is as it was years ago. People on this forum are so used to giving advice and trying to solve problems, some don’t think whether they should, or whether they have all the information to do so. And denigrating someone for past terminations, without knowing the details is irresponsible and cruel, particularly when the person has shared that the cumulative effect of those experiences is persistent trauma. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2020, 03:17:52 AM »
What exactly were you looking to achieve then? The idea that having money is better for your emotional health than not having money isn't exactly ground breaking stuff, especially for a forum literally dedicated to having money.

Let me offer an analogy:

Hi, forum members of fitnessaddicts.com, I used to not be fit but now I am fit. I completed my first 10k recently. It feels so great to be in shape, let me tell you. By the way when I wasn't in shape I broke my wrist 8 times and that really sucked.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2020, 03:44:21 AM »
What exactly were you looking to achieve then? The idea that having money is better for your emotional health than not having money isn't exactly ground breaking stuff, especially for a forum literally dedicated to having money.

Let me offer an analogy:

Hi, forum members of fitnessaddicts.com, I used to not be fit but now I am fit. I completed my first 10k recently. It feels so great to be in shape, let me tell you. By the way when I wasn't in shape I broke my wrist 8 times and that really sucked.

Umm, was just sharing and giving thanks really. Sure, it’s not a groundbreaking thought, but for me it was. And the point of the post was the part where I gave my thanks to MMM and the community because it resonated that my quest for FIRE was borne from something far deeper than me wanting to see the world, it was actually saving me psychically from something. I told my story, shared an insight, provided a context, and gave thanks for having this man’s words and the things I got out of the forum that keep me on track and making good financial decisions.  It certainly wasn’t to solve a problem I don’t have. Should I not have shared the insight and my thanks? By doing so, did I invite and incite others to attack me so ruthlessly and mock my past experiences, label me as failure, deserving of terminations, who simply is too stubborn to take advice and reflect properly?

I would’ve thought this was a safe space to share an insight relevant to mustachianism, tell a story about my past that informs my present and give thanks for seeing the light of financial independence and it’s role in my life. Guess I got that terribly wrong.

KBecks

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2020, 04:33:49 AM »
About a year into marriage, my spouse was laid off from his first professional job.  He wasn't alone, there was a group of people let go the same day.

He was hurt.  He was depressed.  We were fine, I was working, he had severance.

He got a new job quickly and about a year later was laid off that job (was the newest hire there). 
Then he had maybe 9 - 11 months with no work.

This was very hard for him and I'm sad to say that I think it changed his outlook and happiness long term.  I don't think he's fully recovered.  He was super-hurt, and with the longer layoff, he definitely struggled with feeling useful and valuable.

I can see how you get to the term PTSD, or at least anxiety and depression.

I think you got beat up by the crowd here and on the bright side, you've been at your current position a while and doing well, so congratulations on that!  I think that stashing for security is a great motivator.

My husband's layoffs were not a big deal financially, but they were very rough emotionally, and it's something I wish I could have helped him with more.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 04:45:19 AM by KBecks »

RWTL

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2020, 04:47:37 AM »
Good for you that you have taken something from MMM and this forum to make some positive changes in your life.

I don't really understand being separated 8 times - but I don't need to.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2020, 04:51:06 AM »
About a year into marriage, my spouse was laid off from his first professional job.  He wasn't alone, there was a group of people let go the same day.

He was hurt.  He was depressed.  We were fine, I was working, he had severance.

He got a new job quickly and about a year later was laid off that job (was the newest hire there). 
Then he had maybe 9 - 11 months with no work.

This was very hard for him and I'm sad to say that I think it changed his outlook and happiness long term.  I don't think he's fully recovered.  He was super-hurt, and with the longer layoff, he definitely struggled with feeling useful and valuable.

I can see how you get to the term PTSD, or at least anxiety and depression.

I think you got beat up by the crowd here and on the bright side, you've been at your current position a while and doing well, so congratulations on that!  I think that stashing for security is a great motivator.

My husband's layoffs were not a big deal financially, but they were very rough emotionally, and it's something I wish I could have helped him with more.

Wow! That is almost exactly what happened to me! It definitely changed me and impacted everything. The current job did help but since my financial ignorance was the same, I was still vulnerable. Only discovering and committing to FIRE really pulled me out of it. I’m so sorry to hear what your husband is going through, and I’m sure the impact on you and your marriage. Your belief in him and support will help him. Since you’re here, the journey of FIRE will help too. I wish you both all the best through it. It’s not easy getting your confidence back, but it is possible. Thank you for sharing your story and your kind words.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2020, 04:58:27 AM »
Good for you that you have taken something from MMM and this forum to make some positive changes in your life.

I don't really understand being separated 8 times - but I don't need to.

Thank you. I have the perspective that all those experiences brought me to where I am now, making more money than I ever thought possible, while being the big boss. In hindsight, the trauma came from having those experiences while being financially insecure. That’s what creates the panic. It’s one thing to have your self-esteem rocked, but to freak out about paying bills and eating is another thing. Now that’s something I don’t have to worry about and it’s like this massive weight taken off. No one needs more fear in their life.

ender

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2020, 06:21:40 AM »
What's MMM's slogan?

"Financial freedom though badassity."

If I came here and made a post how "I have maxed out my credit cards 8 times in my life and paid tons of interest because those companies can't handle my awesomeness. Credit cards give me PTSD. I won't tell anyone that I learned anything from this though because it's not the point and in fact I love running up huge balances on cards, it's their fault for being greedy companies. But because of MMM I feel secure now in being able to live the life I want to live" people would point out the problem in that thinking - rightly so.


dignam

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2020, 06:44:22 AM »
What's MMM's slogan?

"Financial freedom though badassity."

If I came here and made a post how "I have maxed out my credit cards 8 times in my life and paid tons of interest because those companies can't handle my awesomeness. Credit cards give me PTSD. I won't tell anyone that I learned anything from this though because it's not the point and in fact I love running up huge balances on cards, it's their fault for being greedy companies. But because of MMM I feel secure now in being able to live the life I want to live" people would point out the problem in that thinking - rightly so.

Nailed it.

I'll say it again; most of us "piling on" are just suggesting OP take a step back and question why this pattern of employment separations/firings have happened as it could very well help them moving forward.

KBecks

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2020, 06:46:12 AM »
Given that the OP has had a 33-year career, hopefully he'll be crushing it towards FIRE soon and not in as much need of career advice.

MaybeBabyMustache

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2020, 07:49:27 AM »
OP, I hope you don't see this as "piling on", but intended in a positive spirit.

I can absolutely imagine that being laid off/fired that many times creates economic anxiety. i can also imagine why having the funds to FIRE would reduce that anxiety. Regardless of any anxiety around being laid off/fired in the future, I think most of us are here because we don't want to be at the whim of an employer. Very supportive of taking control of your financial future & reducing & eliminating your dependency on paid work. It's pretty much the mantra of this place.

What I see the other commenters adding feedback on is that there is another potential way to reduce anxiety. You could also self reflect to understand what's led to your previous work history and ask if there were things you could have done to change any of the outcomes. If you've done that, it wasn't indicated in your original post. You don't owe anyone a response to that, but I do think the spirit of most posters was to encourage both things (financial security for the longer term, and give you some immediate reduction of anxiety by understanding & reducing what you can do now to decrease your risk.) None of that may apply in your current work situation, which is fantastic.

I get that you feel attacked. The internet tone is really hard to read, and can feel like people replying more harshly than they would in real life. On the surface, I'd say your responses doubled down on the "you haven't learned or reflected anything in these situations." It's the internet, that may be totally inaccurate. Only you know the answer.

Paul der Krake

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2020, 10:24:55 AM »
What exactly were you looking to achieve then? The idea that having money is better for your emotional health than not having money isn't exactly ground breaking stuff, especially for a forum literally dedicated to having money.

Let me offer an analogy:

Hi, forum members of fitnessaddicts.com, I used to not be fit but now I am fit. I completed my first 10k recently. It feels so great to be in shape, let me tell you. By the way when I wasn't in shape I broke my wrist 8 times and that really sucked.

Umm, was just sharing and giving thanks really. Sure, it’s not a groundbreaking thought, but for me it was. And the point of the post was the part where I gave my thanks to MMM and the community because it resonated that my quest for FIRE was borne from something far deeper than me wanting to see the world, it was actually saving me psychically from something. I told my story, shared an insight, provided a context, and gave thanks for having this man’s words and the things I got out of the forum that keep me on track and making good financial decisions.  It certainly wasn’t to solve a problem I don’t have. Should I not have shared the insight and my thanks? By doing so, did I invite and incite others to attack me so ruthlessly and mock my past experiences, label me as failure, deserving of terminations, who simply is too stubborn to take advice and reflect properly?

I would’ve thought this was a safe space to share an insight relevant to mustachianism, tell a story about my past that informs my present and give thanks for seeing the light of financial independence and it’s role in my life. Guess I got that terribly wrong.
I don't think you were wrong in sharing your story, but you were clearly blind-sided by how internet forums operate, the interesting ones at least. There are some that are big on the not making anyone feel uncomfortable no matter what, but this isn't one of them.

We're all relatively anonymous here, so a couple things tend to happen that doesn't really happen in face-to-face conversations:
1) we latch onto the details that stick out
2) we don't let go until our curiosity has been satisfied
3) we project our own stuff experiences with no fear of being called out for being a dick

Had you told your story the exact same way at a dinner party, you would have gotten a very different reaction, and all the questioning would have been left unsaid because it's not wise to verbally pounce on strangers in the physical world.

Sometimes people are going to be way off. Sometimes they're going to be dead on. When you have eye-catching details that you don't feel like explaining for whatever reason, just don't mention them.

PDXTabs

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2020, 10:32:12 AM »
As for PTSD, sorry but you don’t get to define that for me. I know what that fear and depression is like. I know it follows me. I also know that FIRE keeps it at bay and brings enormous comfort and strength.

You should talk to a trained medical professional about this. Not because I necessarily doubt the diagnosis, but because PTSD is treatable, often with immersion therapy. Also, whatever your final diagnoses, pharmacological enhancement can aid in treatment and a trained professional would be able to help here too. Also also, because you might have additional compounding factors that they could help you find.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2020, 11:02:18 AM »
What's MMM's slogan?

"Financial freedom though badassity."

If I came here and made a post how "I have maxed out my credit cards 8 times in my life and paid tons of interest because those companies can't handle my awesomeness. Credit cards give me PTSD. I won't tell anyone that I learned anything from this though because it's not the point and in fact I love running up huge balances on cards, it's their fault for being greedy companies. But because of MMM I feel secure now in being able to live the life I want to live" people would point out the problem in that thinking - rightly so.

Your analogy is a bit clumsy but I’ll work with it to illustrate my point. Add, “I no longer max out credit cards, I pay them all on time now and I’m down to one that I manage responsibly.”

No, I didn’t provide the past details, because they weren’t relevant and the details don’t mitigate the trauma. What I did provide was clear information that now I’m employed, things are well and those issues are present, despite the trauma and fear of being fired following me, even though I’m relatively secure. I’ve said that multiple times. The presumption would be then that I have learned, changed and things are better. Suggestions to reflect, get therapy, et al, are then moot. If I said, I might be fired any day now or something to indicate a current issue, I’d understand, but I didn’t. You focused on the part you wanted to, while ignoring critical and vital information that not only supports and clarifies my position, but renders yours untenable.

Try this sloppy analogy:

Poster: In my past I had serious drinking problem. It caused damage and I live with the pain I caused. I’ve been sober for years, but the guilt lives with me. Thank you AA and the group for encouragement and support.

Internet strangers: We never had an alcohol problem that bad, why couldn’t you control your drinking? Tell us about the damage you caused, don’t gloss over. How bad was the problem? You should go get help to control your drinking! Hate to pile on, but you must be a weak person to let your alcohol get out of control.

Poster: I’m sober. Been sober for years.

Internet strangers: Don’t get defensive. Did you take your advice? Did you reflect on what we said? Give us details so we can decide if you have learned anything about your drinking problem!

Poster: I’m sober. I don’t have a drinking problem. I did the work, that’s why I’m sober. The details aren’t important, the guilt stays with me but I’m still sober.

Internet strangers: You clearly don’t understand that you have issues with alcohol that you’re not dealing with and you’re not taking our advice and fixing your alcohol problem.

Poster: I’m sober. Wasn’t asking for help or advice, just wanted to share and insight and say: thanks.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2020, 11:04:45 AM »
What's MMM's slogan?

"Financial freedom though badassity."

If I came here and made a post how "I have maxed out my credit cards 8 times in my life and paid tons of interest because those companies can't handle my awesomeness. Credit cards give me PTSD. I won't tell anyone that I learned anything from this though because it's not the point and in fact I love running up huge balances on cards, it's their fault for being greedy companies. But because of MMM I feel secure now in being able to live the life I want to live" people would point out the problem in that thinking - rightly so.

Nailed it.

I'll say it again; most of us "piling on" are just suggesting OP take a step back and question why this pattern of employment separations/firings have happened as it could very well help them moving forward.

If I’m employed and have been for years, not at risk at being fired, then am I not successfully moved forward? Is it not possible I did all the work suggested by internet strangers on my own previously and that’s how I’m where I’m at now?

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2020, 11:09:36 AM »
Given that the OP has had a 33-year career, hopefully he'll be crushing it towards FIRE soon and not in as much need of career advice.

Thank you, I am crushing it but only because of my current job and salary. I’m now in year 4 of MMM learning and if all stays on track, I’ll reach the end in 5-6 years max. That will be an amazing achievement and I’m very focused. It also helps put work and everything into focus and context. I won’t do anything to jeopardize a job that’s my ticket to security and freedom. And fortunately, it’s the best job I could ever have.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2020, 11:18:36 AM »
I'd like to apologize for my assumption that you were being flippant about the use of the diagnosis of PTSD. It was inappropriate and unkind of me to have assumed that being fired couldn't cause PTSD, since it's not the event, but rather how we process the event that causes the damage. As someone who has been suffering from PTSD for years, I'd suggest looking into mindfulness meditation and cognitive behavioral therapy as tools to help you to manage your symptoms if you find that they are troubling you. Hopefully the stability of your current situation will give you the ease that your mind needs.

Thank you for that. I appreciate those suggestions. There is something there around the trauma that I have to look at, although focus on FIRE does seem to mitigate it. I manage this mall relatively well, it’s just demon thoughts that live in the brain sometimes and haunt me. I think they’ll end when work ends.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2020, 11:34:46 AM »
OP, I hope you don't see this as "piling on", but intended in a positive spirit.

I can absolutely imagine that being laid off/fired that many times creates economic anxiety. i can also imagine why having the funds to FIRE would reduce that anxiety. Regardless of any anxiety around being laid off/fired in the future, I think most of us are here because we don't want to be at the whim of an employer. Very supportive of taking control of your financial future & reducing & eliminating your dependency on paid work. It's pretty much the mantra of this place.

What I see the other commenters adding feedback on is that there is another potential way to reduce anxiety. You could also self reflect to understand what's led to your previous work history and ask if there were things you could have done to change any of the outcomes. If you've done that, it wasn't indicated in your original post. You don't owe anyone a response to that, but I do think the spirit of most posters was to encourage both things (financial security for the longer term, and give you some immediate reduction of anxiety by understanding & reducing what you can do now to decrease your risk.) None of that may apply in your current work situation, which is fantastic.

I get that you feel attacked. The internet tone is really hard to read, and can feel like people replying more harshly than they would in real life. On the surface, I'd say your responses doubled down on the "you haven't learned or reflected anything in these situations." It's the internet, that may be totally inaccurate. Only you know the answer.

I can imagine a perspective where what you’re saying would apply to some posters. Some weren’t being measured or particularly helpful. I presumed the whole, I’m working now, all stable and good would suffice. Anyways, I’ve explained that in other posts.

I absolutely wasn’t expecting the pile on. I also wasn’t expecting to be triggered. So many people writing about how that never happened to them, how I must have been at fault and doing things wrong. That immediately resurfaced all those feelings of failure and inadequacy that I had to work through. Every past situation was always scrutinized from various angles, and generally involved more than me to understand, what went wrong, how did this happen, and what was going on that impacted those decisions. It’s a bruising process and whether you feel that you were right and unfairly let go, you still feel like a failure and you’ve let yourself and family down.

It’s taken the longevity of my current role and the success I’ve experienced to build my confidence back. And yet, in my post sharing an insight and giving thanks, strangers want me to relive a past that at one point almost destroyed me, just so they can help with something I didn’t need help with? And face-punches on an emotionally charged issue was probably not the best approach. Unfortunately for some, it’s all they know.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2020, 11:39:36 AM »
What exactly were you looking to achieve then? The idea that having money is better for your emotional health than not having money isn't exactly ground breaking stuff, especially for a forum literally dedicated to having money.

Let me offer an analogy:

Hi, forum members of fitnessaddicts.com, I used to not be fit but now I am fit. I completed my first 10k recently. It feels so great to be in shape, let me tell you. By the way when I wasn't in shape I broke my wrist 8 times and that really sucked.

Umm, was just sharing and giving thanks really. Sure, it’s not a groundbreaking thought, but for me it was. And the point of the post was the part where I gave my thanks to MMM and the community because it resonated that my quest for FIRE was borne from something far deeper than me wanting to see the world, it was actually saving me psychically from something. I told my story, shared an insight, provided a context, and gave thanks for having this man’s words and the things I got out of the forum that keep me on track and making good financial decisions.  It certainly wasn’t to solve a problem I don’t have. Should I not have shared the insight and my thanks? By doing so, did I invite and incite others to attack me so ruthlessly and mock my past experiences, label me as failure, deserving of terminations, who simply is too stubborn to take advice and reflect properly?

I would’ve thought this was a safe space to share an insight relevant to mustachianism, tell a story about my past that informs my present and give thanks for seeing the light of financial independence and it’s role in my life. Guess I got that terribly wrong.
I don't think you were wrong in sharing your story, but you were clearly blind-sided by how internet forums operate, the interesting ones at least. There are some that are big on the not making anyone feel uncomfortable no matter what, but this isn't one of them.

We're all relatively anonymous here, so a couple things tend to happen that doesn't really happen in face-to-face conversations:
1) we latch onto the details that stick out
2) we don't let go until our curiosity has been satisfied
3) we project our own stuff experiences with no fear of being called out for being a dick

Had you told your story the exact same way at a dinner party, you would have gotten a very different reaction, and all the questioning would have been left unsaid because it's not wise to verbally pounce on strangers in the physical world.

Sometimes people are going to be way off. Sometimes they're going to be dead on. When you have eye-catching details that you don't feel like explaining for whatever reason, just don't mention them.

Agreed with all of that except the last bit. First, I thought there needed to be some context to give relevance for the PTSD. Second, I don’t have a crystal ball to know what people will latch onto or not. Third, I thought that since I shared that all is good now, there wouldn’t need to be a focus on the past because the details of the past are irrelevant, save for the past causing the trauma that FIRE addresses.

Davnasty

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #77 on: February 06, 2020, 12:32:06 PM »
What's MMM's slogan?

"Financial freedom though badassity."

If I came here and made a post how "I have maxed out my credit cards 8 times in my life and paid tons of interest because those companies can't handle my awesomeness. Credit cards give me PTSD. I won't tell anyone that I learned anything from this though because it's not the point and in fact I love running up huge balances on cards, it's their fault for being greedy companies. But because of MMM I feel secure now in being able to live the life I want to live" people would point out the problem in that thinking - rightly so.

Your analogy is a bit clumsy but I’ll work with it to illustrate my point. Add, “I no longer max out credit cards, I pay them all on time now and I’m down to one that I manage responsibly.”

No, I didn’t provide the past details, because they weren’t relevant and the details don’t mitigate the trauma. What I did provide was clear information that now I’m employed, things are well and those issues are present, despite the trauma and fear of being fired following me, even though I’m relatively secure. I’ve said that multiple times. The presumption would be then that I have learned, changed and things are better. Suggestions to reflect, get therapy, et al, are then moot. If I said, I might be fired any day now or something to indicate a current issue, I’d understand, but I didn’t. You focused on the part you wanted to, while ignoring critical and vital information that not only supports and clarifies my position, but renders yours untenable.

Try this sloppy analogy:

Poster: In my past I had serious drinking problem. It caused damage and I live with the pain I caused. I’ve been sober for years, but the guilt lives with me. Thank you AA and the group for encouragement and support.

Internet strangers: We never had an alcohol problem that bad, why couldn’t you control your drinking? Tell us about the damage you caused, don’t gloss over. How bad was the problem? You should go get help to control your drinking! Hate to pile on, but you must be a weak person to let your alcohol get out of control.

Poster: I’m sober. Been sober for years.

Internet strangers: Don’t get defensive. Did you take your advice? Did you reflect on what we said? Give us details so we can decide if you have learned anything about your drinking problem!

Poster: I’m sober. I don’t have a drinking problem. I did the work, that’s why I’m sober. The details aren’t important, the guilt stays with me but I’m still sober.

Internet strangers: You clearly don’t understand that you have issues with alcohol that you’re not dealing with and you’re not taking our advice and fixing your alcohol problem.

Poster: I’m sober. Wasn’t asking for help or advice, just wanted to share and insight and say: thanks.

I think the key difference was when you said "Of those 8, only one was deserved". This is quite different than your analogy in which the alcoholic acknowledges their role in the problem.

I'll admit I thought some of the comments were a bit much, but if you sift through the incorrect assumptions and some less than charitable phrasing, there's usually good advice to be had on this forum.

EliteZags

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #78 on: February 06, 2020, 12:43:12 PM »
also this

Quote
Each termination caught me by surprise because I generally bring lots of value to the organizations I work for.


which implies you had felt secure and not at risk in your previous positions also, yet something went wrong each time that you believe "was not deserved" for some reason
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 01:37:33 PM by EliteZags »

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2020, 01:48:54 PM »
What's MMM's slogan?

"Financial freedom though badassity."

If I came here and made a post how "I have maxed out my credit cards 8 times in my life and paid tons of interest because those companies can't handle my awesomeness. Credit cards give me PTSD. I won't tell anyone that I learned anything from this though because it's not the point and in fact I love running up huge balances on cards, it's their fault for being greedy companies. But because of MMM I feel secure now in being able to live the life I want to live" people would point out the problem in that thinking - rightly so.

Your analogy is a bit clumsy but I’ll work with it to illustrate my point. Add, “I no longer max out credit cards, I pay them all on time now and I’m down to one that I manage responsibly.”

No, I didn’t provide the past details, because they weren’t relevant and the details don’t mitigate the trauma. What I did provide was clear information that now I’m employed, things are well and those issues are present, despite the trauma and fear of being fired following me, even though I’m relatively secure. I’ve said that multiple times. The presumption would be then that I have learned, changed and things are better. Suggestions to reflect, get therapy, et al, are then moot. If I said, I might be fired any day now or something to indicate a current issue, I’d understand, but I didn’t. You focused on the part you wanted to, while ignoring critical and vital information that not only supports and clarifies my position, but renders yours untenable.

Try this sloppy analogy:

Poster: In my past I had serious drinking problem. It caused damage and I live with the pain I caused. I’ve been sober for years, but the guilt lives with me. Thank you AA and the group for encouragement and support.

Internet strangers: We never had an alcohol problem that bad, why couldn’t you control your drinking? Tell us about the damage you caused, don’t gloss over. How bad was the problem? You should go get help to control your drinking! Hate to pile on, but you must be a weak person to let your alcohol get out of control.

Poster: I’m sober. Been sober for years.

Internet strangers: Don’t get defensive. Did you take your advice? Did you reflect on what we said? Give us details so we can decide if you have learned anything about your drinking problem!

Poster: I’m sober. I don’t have a drinking problem. I did the work, that’s why I’m sober. The details aren’t important, the guilt stays with me but I’m still sober.

Internet strangers: You clearly don’t understand that you have issues with alcohol that you’re not dealing with and you’re not taking our advice and fixing your alcohol problem.

Poster: I’m sober. Wasn’t asking for help or advice, just wanted to share and insight and say: thanks.

I think the key difference was when you said "Of those 8, only one was deserved". This is quite different than your analogy in which the alcoholic acknowledges their role in the problem.

I'll admit I thought some of the comments were a bit much, but if you sift through the incorrect assumptions and some less than charitable phrasing, there's usually good advice to be had on this forum.

I have my reasons for that statement, but there’s too much discussion to go into and again, not the point. Wasn’t seeking help or saying, I’ve been fired 8 times, what can I do? Deserved or not, roles ended unexpectedly and I wasn’t financially prepared for any of them. That I stated and fully own, because that’s relevant to my current quest to become more financially aware and responsible, and adopt and stick to my FIRE pathway. It’s one of these things that was clear to me when I wrote it, but clearly others saw something else. That though is driven by people’s need to fix something, which is fine, when requested.

It’s kinda like that thing where some women hate when they share something, and instead of listening, some men go into solution mode, and that’s not what she wanted or needed. Anyways, no point bearing this to death. I own that my communications weren’t clear enough as the result was not desired.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2020, 01:52:54 PM »
also this

Quote
Each termination caught me by surprise because I generally bring lots of value to the organizations I work for.


which implies you had felt secure and not at risk in your previous positions also, yet something went wrong each time that you believe "was not deserved" for some reason

True. I have more weight in this role than previous, but the key difference was, I was financially unprepared each time. So even if I was in an accident, I wasn’t prepared to have my wages cut. Now I am. I could lose my job today if I say, walk up to a staff member and punched them, but at least I have money to support me for 5 years at least, at my current spending before needing a new job. That’s a profound security I never had before.

life_travel

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2020, 03:32:52 PM »
I only read half posts on page 1 and had to stop because I felt for you,it was definitely too harsh.
You are right , sometimes I just want to vent after work and it makes me feel worse if my husband tries to offer "solutions". That's exactly what happened here.
It's great that You feel more financially secure . You are a great person and I always like reading you on this forum. I like your forum contributions .
In the last  25 years I've been in 4 situations when managers actively tried to get rid of me , I know how it feels. They didn't succeed , I either stayed or quit on my own . If I just state that people would say it's definitely my fault, it happened 4 times !
But life is more complicated than that and I knew on all occasions that I was unfairly targeted .

Keep doing great job moving closer to your FIRE goal. I keep thinking every day , can I just lean it ?
We may just do OLY because I want to be free.

fuzzy math

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2020, 03:35:44 PM »
I was laid off almost 4 years ago, immediately found new employment, but found myself unable to function as a person not afraid of being back on the chopping block for a long time. Despite being a high performer and creating a new program, I found myself unable to not act like a flamingo with my head buried when talking to higher ups. Its crazy how one single event can forever change your perspective, much less multiples of that same event. I'm sure your previous traumas made it exceedingly difficult to be completely normal and perform your best for some time in each new situation. I'm glad you are past that, and yes reflection is good! Quick escapes from the working world are the absolute best. I can't wait until my former coworkers find out I'm FIREd.

This thread was harsh. There is (was?) a poster named JohnEZ who had done something blatant and gotten fired. He got lots of helpful feedback. I suppose you weren't looking for feedback, just commiseration and I think sometimes this place tends to be less capable of that.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 03:37:54 PM by fuzzy math »

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2020, 03:40:13 PM »
I only read half posts on page 1 and had to stop because I felt for you,it was definitely too harsh.
You are right , sometimes I just want to vent after work and it makes me feel worse if my husband tries to offer "solutions". That's exactly what happened here.
It's great that You feel more financially secure . You are a great person and I always like reading you on this forum. I like your forum contributions .
In the last  25 years I've been in 4 situations when managers actively tried to get rid of me , I know how it feels. They didn't succeed , I either stayed or quit on my own . If I just state that people would say it's definitely my fault, it happened 4 times !
But life is more complicated than that and I knew on all occasions that I was unfairly targeted .

Keep doing great job moving closer to your FIRE goal. I keep thinking every day , can I just lean it ?
We may just do OLY because I want to be free.

Wow! Thank you so much for that, definitely gave me a boost. I feel for you too because those situations are never easy. I wish you all the best on your FIRE journey and jealous of OLY, but sucks if that’s being driven by negative factors.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #84 on: February 06, 2020, 03:47:44 PM »
I was laid off almost 4 years ago, immediately found new employment, but found myself unable to function as a person not afraid of being back on the chopping block for a long time. Despite being a high performer and creating a new program, I found myself unable to not act like a flamingo with my head buried when talking to higher ups. Its crazy how one single event can forever change your perspective, much less multiples of that same event. I'm sure your previous traumas made it exceedingly difficult to be completely normal and perform your best for some time in each new situation. I'm glad you are past that, and yes reflection is good! Quick escapes from the working world are the absolute best. I can't wait until my former coworkers find out I'm FIREd.

This thread was harsh. There is (was?) a poster named JohnEZ who had done something blatant and gotten fired. He got lots of helpful feedback. I suppose you weren't looking for feedback, just commiseration and I think sometimes this place tends to be less capable of that.

Thank you for sharing that. It does rob you, and I think particularly if you’re a high-performer because part of what makes you tick and so valuable is that confidence. The situation you describe is exactly it, keeping your head down and trying to not make waves, even though you become not you. Fortunately, if you get over the hump you revert back to normal. For me, becoming the big boss helped quite a bit because the role matches my talents and ambitions and there are few managers above me for me to clash with, and my role can’t be made redundant or laid off from easily. Doesn’t mean I don’t still have bouts of anxiety and fear, just because, what if the unexpected happens again? Well now, I can say, this I can survive financially so, don’t panic. Hope you have that type of peace as well.

RWTL

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #85 on: February 06, 2020, 05:08:13 PM »
Good for you that you have taken something from MMM and this forum to make some positive changes in your life.

I don't really understand being separated 8 times - but I don't need to.

Thank you. I have the perspective that all those experiences brought me to where I am now, making more money than I ever thought possible, while being the big boss. In hindsight, the trauma came from having those experiences while being financially insecure. That’s what creates the panic. It’s one thing to have your self-esteem rocked, but to freak out about paying bills and eating is another thing. Now that’s something I don’t have to worry about and it’s like this massive weight taken off. No one needs more fear in their life.

Well said.  That's the goal of FI

DaMa

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #86 on: February 06, 2020, 06:08:16 PM »
This has been a very interesting thread.  I also thought 8 firings, you are the problem.  Then I read how well you defended yourself without giving the details everyone wanted.  I was seriously impressed. 

And, I should know better.  I was never fired, but I did have 13 different jobs in 23 years.  Doesn't sound good, and it looks kind of crazy on a resume.   In almost every case I was recruited by someone who worked with me previously.  They needed my particular skill set, and I was ready for a new challenge (or I was just fed up with whatever BS was going on where I was).

Kudos.


2Birds1Stone

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2020, 07:44:23 AM »
This thread is pretty....... tl;dr

There is a very wise saying that I heard early on in life, sounds like it might benefit you too.

"If everywhere you go it smells like shit, maybe it's time to check your own shoes."

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2020, 07:49:32 AM »
This thread is pretty....... tl;dr

There is a very wise saying that I heard early on in life, sounds like it might benefit you too.

"If everywhere you go it smells like shit, maybe it's time to check your own shoes."

I changed shoes a long time ago, but thanks for the fortune cookie advice.

Schaefer Light

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2020, 10:58:28 AM »
One of the main reasons I want to be FI is that I don't want anyone to have the level of control over me that a boss/company inevitably has.  If you have a job and your boss tells you that you have to work this weekend, then (unless you're prepared to quit on the spot) your boss has just decided what you're going to do this weekend.  Fuck that.  I'm tired of being in a position where another flawed human being can make a decision that will have a huge impact on my lifestyle.  Just think about the power that your boss has over you - they can take away your source of income, your source of health insurance, and in some cases your ability to find work in your town (meaning that without your current job you'd have to move to a new town to find work).  The hell with that.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2020, 01:41:17 PM »
One of the main reasons I want to be FI is that I don't want anyone to have the level of control over me that a boss/company inevitably has.  If you have a job and your boss tells you that you have to work this weekend, then (unless you're prepared to quit on the spot) your boss has just decided what you're going to do this weekend.  Fuck that.  I'm tired of being in a position where another flawed human being can make a decision that will have a huge impact on my lifestyle.  Just think about the power that your boss has over you - they can take away your source of income, your source of health insurance, and in some cases your ability to find work in your town (meaning that without your current job you'd have to move to a new town to find work).  The hell with that.

1000x agreed

Bloop Bloop

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2020, 02:15:48 PM »
One of the main reasons I want to be FI is that I don't want anyone to have the level of control over me that a boss/company inevitably has.  If you have a job and your boss tells you that you have to work this weekend, then (unless you're prepared to quit on the spot) your boss has just decided what you're going to do this weekend.  Fuck that.  I'm tired of being in a position where another flawed human being can make a decision that will have a huge impact on my lifestyle.  Just think about the power that your boss has over you - they can take away your source of income, your source of health insurance, and in some cases your ability to find work in your town (meaning that without your current job you'd have to move to a new town to find work).  The hell with that.

Your boss is just another flawed human being, as you say, same as anyone else. Your boss is trying to meet his or her targets. Bosses are no more or less incompetent, vindictive, selfish etc than underlings.  If you let go of the desire to control everything about your life (because you won't be able to, anyway, either at work or outside), you might feel less uneasy about boss-related anxiety.

As someone who has been an underling, a boss, and now self-employed, I have found that each has its benefits and drawbacks.

Schaefer Light

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2020, 04:17:20 PM »
One of the main reasons I want to be FI is that I don't want anyone to have the level of control over me that a boss/company inevitably has.  If you have a job and your boss tells you that you have to work this weekend, then (unless you're prepared to quit on the spot) your boss has just decided what you're going to do this weekend.  Fuck that.  I'm tired of being in a position where another flawed human being can make a decision that will have a huge impact on my lifestyle.  Just think about the power that your boss has over you - they can take away your source of income, your source of health insurance, and in some cases your ability to find work in your town (meaning that without your current job you'd have to move to a new town to find work).  The hell with that.

Your boss is just another flawed human being, as you say, same as anyone else. Your boss is trying to meet his or her targets. Bosses are no more or less incompetent, vindictive, selfish etc than underlings.  If you let go of the desire to control everything about your life (because you won't be able to, anyway, either at work or outside), you might feel less uneasy about boss-related anxiety.

As someone who has been an underling, a boss, and now self-employed, I have found that each has its benefits and drawbacks.
That's for sure.  I was a boss for about 7 years.  I hated it because I was held responsible for the work of people I had no real control over....and I really didn't want to control them.  But if it ever appeared that I had no control over them then I was criticized by my boss.  I just don't care for being part of an organization.  People put unrealistic pressure on other people (like go meet this crazy sales quota even though none of our customers have money to spend, or never allow our service to suffer an outage even though we have no budget for hardware upgrades), and I think it's all a bunch of bullshit.  Like the world is going to end if we don't make quota this quarter.

I just don't care about goals or targets that are set by other people.  And you get that crap constantly stuffed down your throat if you work for someone else.  My priorities are basically to get enough sleep, exercise regularly, eat mostly healthy foods, enjoy my hobbies, and spend time with family and friends.  I care a helluva lot more about my golf handicap than I do about the stupid goals that my boss set for me.

I feel like Peter Gibbons in Office Space: "my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job."

Firehazard

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Re: PTSD from terminations fuels my FIRE goals
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2020, 05:31:47 PM »
I have never once been fired or laid off in 35 years of working.  However, I always lived in fear of a job loss.  I think it started because I was so poor when first starting out at age 18 with only a high school diploma and no parental support of any kind. 

Any time the thought occurred to me that I might have made a mistake at work, or forgotten to take care of something, I would have a mini panic attack; heart pounding and breaking out in a sweat.  Most of the time, it turned out I had not actually made the mistake or forgotten to do anything.  It was never rational, but it continued throughout my working life.  Even to this day, actually.  I gave my FIRE notice in late 2018, but ended up staying on part-time because they asked me to.  It's worked out well and I've been happy with the very flexible and minimal hours that produce enough of a paycheck that I won't need to touch any of my stash as long as this arrangement continues.

Recently, I discovered an error I had made at work and had the usual reaction.  It went on for about a week while I was working out how to remedy the situation.  I went to bed worrying about it, woke up worrying about it.  The entire time I knew that it really would not even matter if my employer decided to fire me over it, because I don't actually need the job.  I still managed to put myself through hell even though in the scheme of things, the error was actually pretty insignificant at the end of the day.

I can only imagine what a basket case I would have been if I had ever been fired or laid off even once, let alone eight times.  So I definitely understand the kind of anxiety the OP was feeling! 

 

 

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