Author Topic: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate  (Read 76949 times)

EconDiva

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2016, 02:34:12 PM »
I agree, but it's interesting that here, it's often "okay" to spend money on travel vs. stuff, or say, a cleaning lady.

I'm sure that studies show that experiences are worth more - as in, I think, you have fond memories that last and last, as compared to "stuff".

But I also think that hedonistic adaptation is a problem with travel, as it is in general with consumerism.  I've seen it, and I've experienced it too.

From the friends who think that each vacation has to be more fabulous and nicer than the last (go to Europe for engagement for 2 weeks?  Honeymoon must be in the South Pacific for 3 weeks).

To just us, who are getting old.  We don't stay in Motel Six's, or camp as much as we did in our 30's before kids.  We still camp, but are much more likely to rent a house or a condo when traveling with the kids.  I'm NOT staying in a Motel 6.  Then again, we travel a lot less frequently and take fewer plane trips.

The more you see, the more you want to see.

Why stay in a Motel 6 when there's Priceline and AirBnb nowadays? :)

justajane

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2016, 02:36:53 PM »
And no, 2 trips at 60 is not the same as doing 1 when you're 25.  By your mid-30s, you're mostly done forming your opinion of the world, and it's not easy to change your opinions.  I could drag a 50 year old bigot through the middle east for a decade, and they'd just be a 60 year old bigot still convinced Muslims are the devil.

Meh. I don't really agree. I do think people can and do change. Plus age leads a new perspective to life and travel that you likely won't get when you're 25.

And arebelspy, for someone who doesn't like generalizations, I'm not sure how the above presentation that essentially argues that people's opinions of the world are static by the age of 35 deserves such applause.

steveo

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2016, 02:40:33 PM »
Tough one. If I'm judgemental I think a lot of travel is just to tell people I went travelling to here/there/wherever to try and look cool or wealthy or whatever or to just relieve boredom in people's mundane existence.

If I'm being more reasonable I think that you should spend your money on what makes you happy and not spend it on stuff that doesn't provide happiness.

Cranky

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2016, 02:44:29 PM »
Anything you do in your 20s is Formative because it's a Formative Period. ;-) Relationships, work, kids, remodeling the basement, moving across the country, travel - all of them are Formative Experiences. Travel isn't really different than the others.

And of course, travel is consumption, especially air travel or car travel.

But - if that's your thing and you love it and you can afford it, go for it. It seems a big draw for a lot of people in this group.

I think travel is boring as all get out, and a lot of effort for no particular reward, so I can save a whole bunch of money in that department.

arebelspy

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2016, 02:45:56 PM »
And no, 2 trips at 60 is not the same as doing 1 when you're 25.  By your mid-30s, you're mostly done forming your opinion of the world, and it's not easy to change your opinions.  I could drag a 50 year old bigot through the middle east for a decade, and they'd just be a 60 year old bigot still convinced Muslims are the devil.

Meh. I don't really agree. I do think people can and do change. Plus age leads a new perspective to life and travel that you likely won't get when you're 25.

And arebelspy, for someone who doesn't like generalizations, I'm not sure how the above presentation that essentially argues that people's opinions of the world are static by the age of 35 deserves such applause.

Perhaps you'll notice that I cut out part of the final paragraph.  Probably could have cut out a bit more of it.  Yes, that was the only part I disagreed with.  Nitpicking on that one part misses the overall message, and overall it was a phenomenal post!
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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LeRainDrop

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2016, 02:47:10 PM »
To me there is a major difference between 'vacation' and 'travel'.  Maybe because I'm not yet FIREd and still working a regular american work week.  'Vacation' is a temporary reprive from my usual routine which may occur in my home/home town or maybe at a place of my choosing where the environment is, I have predicted, to be desirable and pleasurable to me.  'Vacations' are generally a chance to decompress and enjoy time with my immediate family while taking a break from work/school responsibilities.  I have taken cheap trips and expensive trips and they are all valuable to me.  When I think about 'travel' and the kind of 'travel' I want in retirement, it is not bound by project schedules, approval from one's boss, scheduling around school calendars (if with kids), or available vacation/PTO time alloted to me.  To me, 'travel' is the flexibility to choose the place, the time, the mode of transportation (if required) and the style of occomodations I want.  I suppose there are restrictions based on ideal weather conditions and of course finances. But when I am retired, I'll have more time to plan and the restrictions named above (boss approval, scheduling limits, leave balance) will be completely removed.  I have no idea how much we want/need to spend on 'travel' in retirement but you but your ass that it's something I am budgeting for no matter how consumeristic some people find it. This is namely because while working I feel the pinch of those restrictions and have always wanted more time in just about every place I've ever visited to see more. More of the places, more of the people, more of the scenery, more of the culture, more of the cuisine.  Just more! 

I feel exactly the same.  I had more "travel" in high school, college, law school, and very early career.  As for now?  I just got back from a 5-day "vacation" and wish I could have stayed longer to explore more and get to know some local people better.  I had just enough time to start making some local connections and didn't really get to build on those.  Just as they were inviting to take me places, I had to leave!  Like you, CaptainBenefits, I always seem to be under the restrictions from work and feel like I want to soak in more from where I'm visiting.  Travel is something I am actively planning to integrate into my life again sooner rather than later.

steveo

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2016, 02:48:41 PM »
I think travel is boring as all get out, and a lot of effort for no particular reward, so I can save a whole bunch of money in that department.

Travel is definitely something that I think is overrated and for the cost I personally think its a waste of money.

I see a couple of things that parents in my area spend a lot on - travel, cars and private schools. We don't spend money on any of those big ticket items. I don't think that we are any less happy or well rounded/experienced individuals.

mathlete

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2016, 02:53:43 PM »
People should spend their money on whatever makes them happy. If it is material possessions, so be it. If it is experiences, so be it.

I think people should always be mindful of what they consume, whether it comes in cardboard and plastic packaging, or the jet fuel burned to travel some where. If they decide that they really glean value from some form of consumerism though, I don't think anyone should pass judgement.

justajane

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2016, 02:56:30 PM »
@steveo
Yes, my husband and I were talking about our peers and why we seem to have more of a financial cushion compared to them, even though we likely make about the same. We came up with some minor things like clothes spending, hair cuts, perhaps more on food, no smartphones. But one of the biggest things we noticed is that we don't take expensive vacations with our three kids. In fact, we really don't vacation much at all other than visiting family and a cheap, cheap lake trip once in a while. It's just not a priority for us, nor do I think it is that important for our children at this stage of their development. We are hoping to eventually take them on some larger trips in the U.S, but Europe? Maybe one day when they are in high school or college. Maybe not. It's just not that important to us, and I think they will have a happy childhood regardless.

I went on service trips abroad when I was a teenager. I have mixed feelings about those as well, now that I've had time to reflect on them.

justajane

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2016, 03:04:13 PM »
And no, 2 trips at 60 is not the same as doing 1 when you're 25.  By your mid-30s, you're mostly done forming your opinion of the world, and it's not easy to change your opinions.  I could drag a 50 year old bigot through the middle east for a decade, and they'd just be a 60 year old bigot still convinced Muslims are the devil.

Meh. I don't really agree. I do think people can and do change. Plus age leads a new perspective to life and travel that you likely won't get when you're 25.

And arebelspy, for someone who doesn't like generalizations, I'm not sure how the above presentation that essentially argues that people's opinions of the world are static by the age of 35 deserves such applause.

Perhaps you'll notice that I cut out part of the final paragraph.  Probably could have cut out a bit more of it.  Yes, that was the only part I disagreed with.  Nitpicking on that one part misses the overall message, and overall it was a phenomenal post!

Fair enough, although I don't think it's nitpicking to focus on what I disagreed with. In my mind, it colors the overall message to think that only people of a certain young age can benefit from travel.

I think in general people on here have different perspectives on what it means to only quote one part of a larger post. I do it in order to have a more focused conversation, but people often interpret it as taking something out of context. I personally can't stand wholesale quoting a post if I'm only going to discuss one part of a post. It hurts my eyes to scroll through so many embedded quote streams.

You'll get no disagreement from me that being exposed to other cultures can be a good thing for people and creates more empathy. Travel, however, is not the only way to achieve that.

arebelspy

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2016, 03:12:06 PM »
Fair enough, although I don't think it's nitpicking to focus on what I disagreed with.

Sure.

When there's a four paragraph message though, and all that's posted is a disagreement about the last sentence or two (and calling out someone who agreed with the message for not disagreeing with that part), it makes the whole message seem in question, instead of supported (minus that one part).

/shrug

Whatever, I think we basically agree on everything, including the part we disagreed with in that message.  :)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

steveo

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2016, 03:15:49 PM »
@steveo
Yes, my husband and I were talking about our peers and why we seem to have more of a financial cushion compared to them, even though we likely make about the same. We came up with some minor things like clothes spending, hair cuts, perhaps more on food, no smartphones. But one of the biggest things we noticed is that we don't take expensive vacations with our three kids. In fact, we really don't vacation much at all other than visiting family and a cheap, cheap lake trip once in a while. It's just not a priority for us, nor do I think it is that important for our children at this stage of their development. We are hoping to eventually take them on some larger trips in the U.S, but Europe? Maybe one day when they are in high school or college. Maybe not. It's just not that important to us, and I think they will have a happy childhood regardless.

I went on service trips abroad when I was a teenager. I have mixed feelings about those as well, now that I've had time to reflect on them.

We sound very similar. We cut our own hair and have cheap phones. We probably spend more on groceries but we don't eat out. The big ticket items though must be huge - cars, vacations etc. We also have 3 kids and it would cost a fortune to travel or send them to private schools. We don't intend to do any travelling with them. Maybe some small trips but nothing significant.

I have travelled a little bit. I enjoyed it but it's not something that I have to do.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 03:17:42 PM by steveo »

Northwestie

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2016, 03:40:34 PM »
Or, conversely, those in the "country" need a similar break from spending all their time driving to services (larger carbon footprint) and to get away from the freedom riders and meth labs now and then.

Meth Labs, now there you have a point. Don't know of any... but there are plenty of pot growers around these parts.
Many hikers are too afraid to hike off trails now for fear of getting shot.
I don't know what Freedom riders are.
For Mustachians, I'm not sure this applies regarding services. Nowadays you pay bills online, can order much of what you need online.
I think this website promotes cycling overall, and not using as many services. Instead being as self sufficient as possible within reason. Growing food versus costs of buying it + gas to drive to buy it, for example

I've done both ends of it -- living on 50 acres and in the city.  There are some very good sustainability studies that show, by far, urbanites use much less resources per capitia than rural folks.   While you can order "things" on-line the energy expended to get there and associated carbon footprint are still expended.   And especially if you commute - going back in forth in a line - that is just plain wasteful and stupid.  Besides job and cultural amenities when I moved to the city I saved a ton of money, bike to work and errands, walk to grocery shop, and don't have to worry about the meth heads scouting out my place.   40 minutes from town I have climbing, backcountry skiing, and wilderness.  That will do.

Freedom riders = Freedum wackos,  see: Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

Cassie

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2016, 04:11:12 PM »
When we were raising our 3 kids traveling meant going across the country to visit family for 2 weeks, occasional weekend trips some fun places in the same state. When they were older we did take them to DC and they loved it.  After they were gone we started doing some traveling in our middle 40's and of curse are doing more the past 6 years because we have both the time and $ and aren't getting any younger.  I know people that traveled a lot when young and loved it but we started our family, etc so had different priorities.  Also I have noticed that the older I get the more I want comfort. My last tent camping experience was about 10 years ago and that was sufficient.  Some people hate to travel and that is fine. We enjoy it but I don't want to be gone longer then 3 weeks at one time. Others want to be gone for years. No wrong or right way to do things.

stlbrah

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2016, 04:17:19 PM »
I was kind of a dumbass before getting into traveling. I was the type of person to go to a chinese restaurant and then complain about the chopsticks. I just can't see my experiences as consumerism.

meyling

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2016, 04:26:29 PM »
People should spend their money on whatever makes them happy. If it is material possessions, so be it. If it is experiences, so be it.

I think people should always be mindful of what they consume, whether it comes in cardboard and plastic packaging, or the jet fuel burned to travel some where. If they decide that they really glean value from some form of consumerism though, I don't think anyone should pass judgement.
Agreed. I do value experiences over material things because I personally never saw the joy in owning many things. But I don't think of myself as any better than someone who'd rather spend money on a house than a trip somewhere.

aschmidt2930

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2016, 05:05:38 PM »
Who are you to judge what makes somehow happy? Seems like an unnecessary thread.

Eric

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2016, 05:16:21 PM »
I was kind of a dumbass before getting into traveling. I was the type of person to go to a chinese restaurant and then complain about the chopsticks. I just can't see my experiences as consumerism.

That made me laugh.  Good work!  (on both the travel and joke)

kpd905

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2016, 05:16:48 PM »
The mindset of people interest in MMM/early retirement seem to be perfectly made for travel hacking, which can bring travel expenses down near zero. 

My wife and I just booked flights to Geneva, Switzerland in August to go hike the Trail du Mont Blanc.  We'll be there for 2 weeks.  Flights were $260 total, lodging during the hike will be free (camping), we will have either one or two free hotel nights in Geneva from credit card points, and our only other expenses will be food.  So two weeks in France, Italy and Switzerland for a few hundred bucks.

Due to a weird rule that United has regarding stopovers, we also each got a free one way to Phoenix booked for next January on the same reservation, at no extra cost.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 05:27:23 PM by kpd905 »

iwasjustwondering

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2016, 05:21:36 PM »
I think you're missing one of the major points of travel, which is that it forces you to relate to the people you're traveling with.  I travel with my teenagers.  We get away from the coworkers, the friends, the neighbors, the dogs, the video games, the homework, and we spend a few days relating to each other.  It's important.  You can't get that at home.  We can't, anyway. 

Northwestie

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2016, 05:23:25 PM »
The mindset of people interest in MMM/early retirement seem to be perfectly made for travel hacking, which can bring travel expenses down near zero. 

My wife and I just booked flights to Geneva, Switzerland in August to go hike the Trail du Mont Blanc.  We'll be there for 2 weeks.  Flights were $260 total, lodging during the hike will be free (camping), we will have either one or two free hotel nights in Geneva from credit card points, and our only other expenses will be food. 

Due to a weird rule that United has regarding stopovers, we also each got a free one way to Phoenix booked for next January on the same reservation, at no extra cost.

Hard to argue with that fugal agenda!  Congrats and good shopping

tobitonic

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2016, 05:35:19 PM »
I agree travel often = consumption. Not just consumption of experiences, but of cultures. This has massive repercussions in places which receive overwhelming numbers of tourists, from Paris to the Forbidden City. But it's hardest on the third world, where corruption is the norm and basic infrastructure is lacking. To an extent tourists can bring great benefits when managed well, but more often than not, little of the money reaches those who need it most in these countries. Not even going to start on carbon footprints, tourists depleting the water in remote areas due to frequent showers, etc.

After years of living places which I used as bases from which to travel, some years ago I decided only to travel when necessary for research projects or meetings. [Edited to add: and of course to see family.]

Agreed, 100%. It's forum-favored consumerism, but it's consumerism all the same.

expatartist

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2016, 05:46:17 PM »
Who are you people mumbling about? ^^ How can frugal environmentalism be bad? that's just weird...

Frugal travel does have environmental consequences. I once wrote for a travel site in SE Asia and was naively shocked when researching on a small (not packed with tourists) Thai island at the mountains of beer bottles piled behind charming family owned guesthouses which were billed as homestays. The homestays were in well run to all appearances, clean, serving good food with a smile at rock bottom prices because there was so much competition .
  These small glass mountains were transferred to larger ones further inland once they were too unsightly. And just left there. Though it made sense for these business owners to send plastic to the mainland for recycling, there was none for glass.
And another island, not too far away, most famous for 'The Beach', may not be a good swimming destination: http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Phi-Phi-Island-releases-83-wastewater-untreated/
Environmentally friendly travel is slow and expensive.

ETA: I'm not an ardent environmentalist. My day job is in education & as admin I have short holidays during peak travel periods. So when I have time off I take care of things (career-related non-work travel, family, rentals) as quickly and cheaply as possible. But for me these are necessities, not holidays. Often I'd like a holiday once I return home ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 06:44:52 AM by expatartist »

flyingaway

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #73 on: March 02, 2016, 05:47:02 PM »
The mindset of people interest in MMM/early retirement seem to be perfectly made for travel hacking, which can bring travel expenses down near zero. 

My wife and I just booked flights to Geneva, Switzerland in August to go hike the Trail du Mont Blanc.  We'll be there for 2 weeks.  Flights were $260 total, lodging during the hike will be free (camping), we will have either one or two free hotel nights in Geneva from credit card points, and our only other expenses will be food.  So two weeks in France, Italy and Switzerland for a few hundred bucks.

Due to a weird rule that United has regarding stopovers, we also each got a free one way to Phoenix booked for next January on the same reservation, at no extra cost.

Not spending your money does not means it is not consumerism.

tobitonic

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #74 on: March 02, 2016, 06:48:46 PM »
I wonder if it ever gets cold up there on the moral high ground.

Ask our guru.  After all, he says he's producing an environmental activism blog in a personal finance wrapper.

LOL.

On a different note, I also agree with the idea that travel in your 20s isn't more valuable than travel beyond your 20s. This, to me, is part of the youth-worshiping element of our culture. Because our media focuses on the young and restless, we believe things are most important when done early in adulthood.

Dan Buettner--that guy in his 50s who traveled around the world looking for places where people live active, happy, and fulfilling lives in their 80s and 90s--talks frequently about how your social capital in the US peaks at 25-30 or so, and I see the narcissism of believing that you learn more from travel when in your 20s than at any point beyond that as part of this social capital argument.

If you don't travel in your 20s, you don't get to brag about traveling in your 20s to people in their 20s. After that age, people tend to stop caring, which means you actually have to travel because you find it valuable, and not so you'll be able to impress others with your travel stories.

No one's surprised if you visit (insert exotic location) in your 50s or 60s, or even in your 40s or 30s, because people expect you to have more money then (and time once traditionally retired). It's far more impressive (to people your age) if you do it when you're supposed to be paying off student loans and underemployed.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 06:51:08 PM by tobitonic »

kpd905

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2016, 06:59:45 PM »
The mindset of people interest in MMM/early retirement seem to be perfectly made for travel hacking, which can bring travel expenses down near zero. 

My wife and I just booked flights to Geneva, Switzerland in August to go hike the Trail du Mont Blanc.  We'll be there for 2 weeks.  Flights were $260 total, lodging during the hike will be free (camping), we will have either one or two free hotel nights in Geneva from credit card points, and our only other expenses will be food.  So two weeks in France, Italy and Switzerland for a few hundred bucks.

Due to a weird rule that United has regarding stopovers, we also each got a free one way to Phoenix booked for next January on the same reservation, at no extra cost.

Not spending your money does not means it is not consumerism.

I agree, but I'd much rather have Chase Bank pay for my vacation than have to pay for it myself.

I was really stating my case to show that you can travel without making it a large part of your budget.  Or for people on this site, zero your travel budget with travel hacking, and throw that money into your investments instead.

People on this site like to optimize their expenses.  By getting your flights and lodging for free, you can avoid having to wait to travel until you are FIRE.

tobitonic

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2016, 07:06:44 PM »
Who are you to judge what makes somehow happy? Seems like an unnecessary thread.

This is kind of a huge part of the blog and forums. MMM judges most people for the things they do because he states those things don't make them happy.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 07:08:16 PM by tobitonic »

Moustachienne

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2016, 07:27:53 PM »
I was kind of a dumbass before getting into traveling. I was the type of person to go to a chinese restaurant and then complain about the chopsticks. I just can't see my experiences as consumerism.

That made me laugh.  Good work!  (on both the travel and joke)

Agree!  My favourite post of the day or maybe longer.  :)

CanuckExpat

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2016, 10:28:05 PM »
Seriously, this is the worst post I have ever seen!

I thought the OP wrote a relatively balanced and nuanced post. The fact that it generates feelings like this means he touches a nerve with strong feelings.
No matter how you feel about the arguments, I can concur with the OP on at least some points perhaps based just on reflexive responses to the contrary :)

Metric Mouse

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2016, 11:57:54 PM »
Anything you do in your 20s is Formative because it's a Formative Period. ;-) Relationships, work, kids, remodeling the basement, moving across the country, travel - all of them are Formative Experiences. Travel isn't really different than the others.

And of course, travel is consumption, especially air travel or car travel.

But - if that's your thing and you love it and you can afford it, go for it. It seems a big draw for a lot of people in this group.

I think travel is boring as all get out, and a lot of effort for no particular reward, so I can save a whole bunch of money in that department.

Very well said! Anyone who thinks that seeing the world when young is better than any of the million other experiences one could have is pretty self-centered. It's not that hard to burn jet fuel and hostel sheet laundering into an inflated sense of self-importance. People do it every day. If someone can't pull their head out of their own ass to look around to find empathy for their fellow human beings without flying across an ocean, then that person is only going to gain so much by seeing the sun set in Ko Samui or walking the streets of Cebu or taking a selfie at the Louvre. Someone who hasn't travelled the globe by the time they're 32 is no more likely to a positive person than someone who has. I mean, there's a metric fuck tonne of shit that you haven't done when you're 30... walking through an endless stream of European museums isn't going to make a dent in the stuff that hasn't been accomplished...

Sadly I wish I'd known that when I retired. I'd have saved a shit ton of jet fuel and motorcycle gas. But I'm sure it was totally worth it to experience delousing at every fuckin' border crossing in CA...

To be fair, even a half decade later, I still tell stories about those formative relationships...

I wonder if it ever gets cold up there on the moral high ground.

Ask our guru.  After all, he says he's producing an environmental activism blog in a personal finance wrapper.

LOL.

On a different note, I also agree with the idea that travel in your 20s isn't more valuable than travel beyond your 20s. This, to me, is part of the youth-worshiping element of our culture. Because our media focuses on the young and restless, we believe things are most important when done early in adulthood.

Dan Buettner--that guy in his 50s who traveled around the world looking for places where people live active, happy, and fulfilling lives in their 80s and 90s--talks frequently about how your social capital in the US peaks at 25-30 or so, and I see the narcissism of believing that you learn more from travel when in your 20s than at any point beyond that as part of this social capital argument.

If you don't travel in your 20s, you don't get to brag about traveling in your 20s to people in their 20s. After that age, people tend to stop caring, which means you actually have to travel because you find it valuable, and not so you'll be able to impress others with your travel stories.

No one's surprised if you visit (insert exotic location) in your 50s or 60s, or even in your 40s or 30s, because people expect you to have more money then (and time once traditionally retired). It's far more impressive (to people your age) if you do it when you're supposed to be paying off student loans and underemployed.

Excellent. Pretty well warps up everything that can be said for the push to travel while young just for the sake of travelling...while young.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 12:25:44 AM by Metric Mouse »

Johnny Aloha

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #80 on: March 03, 2016, 12:07:10 AM »
I'm really getting sick of reading about how people value "experiences" more than "things" as their justification for still spending excessively on "experiences" that they don't need or really care about.

You could just stop reading about it then :)

mxt0133

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #81 on: March 03, 2016, 01:30:11 AM »
I really doubt that anyone can argue that traveling is not consumption, whether it is slow, fast, via plane, boat, car, or foot.  But so is buying the computer that I am typing this post in, the food that I eat to burn the calories needed to make my muscles contract to type, the air that I am breathing to oxygenate my blood, even the sun that provides us heat consumes hydrogen atoms to make helium atoms and emit radiation.

For me I can appreciate wherever I am, where I might have walked the same route for years, as much as I can appreciate being in a new environment and experiencing a new culture that is half way around the world.

I have enjoy traveling when I was younger and single, as well as being older with my family.  I am sure I will still enjoy traveling when I'm older traveling with or without my family.


Bertram

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #82 on: March 03, 2016, 01:58:41 AM »
My first though when readin the OP was:

The Revolution devours its children

I think it's normal that any movement or idea is always bound to overtaken on the outside by somebody turning things up to eleven. That's just human nature.

I was going to reply, but Moustachienne ("not signing up for the internet travel police"), arebelspy ("Everything that can be done, can be done poorly or well."), big_slacker ("This comes back to the idea of MINDFUL spending vs mindless consumerism") and most of all of course AH013 have so completely deconstructed the OPs argument, there's nothing left for me to add to the original question.

However I would like to give Ricky one idea to take away: Please drop your anger and your judgemental tone. It's not helping your argument, and it's making you look like your venting here is just a means of letting steam off for bad things that happened elsewhere in your life. Here, have a hug, Ricky! : )

chasingthegoodlife

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #83 on: March 03, 2016, 03:21:07 AM »
One thought about traveling in your 20s vs later in life - regardless of whether you feel it will be BETTER or WORSE for you, it will likely be DIFFERENT.

I spent a year working and backpacking in Europe when I was 19. I was single, outgoing, spontaneous, had never lived away from home, in perfect health and had extremely low standards for personal comfort. Everything seemed AMAZING and often completely novel - I was seeing things for the first time rather than seeing an 'up close' version of cities and cultures I was already familiar with from the internet, television, and years of experience with their expat populations in Melbourne. 

Only 14 years later and I would experience the same countries in a very different way. I can drive now, I need more sleep, I have a more nuanced understanding of history and culture, I like wine, I'm more risk averse, I have a greater appreciation for nature vs big cities, I am more reserved with strangers.

If indeed there are benefits to travel such as perspective, empathy, cultural awareness, and perhaps for someone like my 19 year old self, building independence and self reliance, I got to enjoy them for the next few decades rather than waiting until my 50s. Of course, perhaps I could have built my independence equally as well back at home. I'll never know.

All I'm saying is, don't expect to have or want the same experience in your 50s that you'd have in your 20s.

arebelspy

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2016, 03:32:21 AM »
One thought about traveling in your 20s vs later in life - regardless of whether you feel it will be BETTER or WORSE for you, it will likely be DIFFERENT.
...
All I'm saying is, don't expect to have or want the same experience in your 50s that you'd have in your 20s.

Exactly.

On a different note, I also agree with the idea that travel in your 20s isn't more valuable than travel beyond your 20s. This, to me, is part of the youth-worshiping element of our culture. Because our media focuses on the young and restless, we believe things are most important when done early in adulthood.

We're not saying traveling while young is better, but that it's different.

My travel at age 30 is already different than my travel at age 22.

Delaying travel in your 20s to do it in your 50s guarantees a different experience.  I say you should do BOTH.

My statement was "You will never get another chance to travel at age 25."  You will also never get a chance to travel at age 50.  You will experience it totally differently, with the (hopefully) more wisdom of age.  But the impact during a more formative year can be huge as well.

It's not better, but it's different, and worth doing.

It's rare that someone regrets travel in their 20s, from what I've seen.

We could start a thread, with a poll:
I traveled in my 20s and am glad I did
I traveled in my 20s and wish I hadn't
I didn't travel in my 20s and am glad I didn't
I didn't travel in my 20s and wish I had

I think the second option would get the least amount of votes, personally.  People who travel rarely regret it (exceptions do occur).
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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justajane

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2016, 05:48:16 AM »
It's rare that someone regrets travel in their 20s, from what I've seen.

We could start a thread, with a poll:
I traveled in my 20s and am glad I did
I traveled in my 20s and wish I hadn't
I didn't travel in my 20s and am glad I didn't
I didn't travel in my 20s and wish I had

I think the second option would get the least amount of votes, personally.  People who travel rarely regret it (exceptions do occur).

I agree. I don't regret the travel per se, even as I recognize the reasons for my travel were somewhat warped. But, like most twenty somethings who travel, the money would have been better used elsewhere. I didn't save a dime for retirement in my 20s. I was a graduate student and it never crossed my mind. Perhaps if I hadn't spend those thousands upon thousands on seeing the world, I might have had more to show for myself financially. Although I guess I could choose to put other parts of my spending under the microscope instead.

At least seeing the world did contribute to my more open minded worldview. That aspect of it I will grant. But I lived abroad for over two years. That is what did it for me - not going to Paris for three days or Amsterdam for five. I agree with those above that this aspect of people's argument strains credibility. Being in a foreign land doing touristy things doesn't somehow magically lead you to be more open-minded.

Plus I imagine most of us live in cities with lots of different cultures. I can drive 5 minutes and interact with immigrants. Heck, I can walk a minute away. A family of eight Syrian refugees live around the corner from me. One goes to school with my son.

aprilchem

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2016, 06:35:19 AM »
I think it's all about priorities.  It seems like a lot of people posting on this thread assume they will live a long, healthy life.   I don't assume anything - my father died at 55, having never really seen anything of the world - he had put it off so that he could travel in retirement.  That never happened for him.  Having had that experience, I don't assume I'll live see old age, nor do I assume my kids will, so I want to have a healthy balance - I want to see things now in case I die tomorrow, and I want to be smart with my money so if I live that long, I'll be able to retire and travel a bit then, too.  Living only for the future is a loftly goal but one that can surely bite you in the rear.


expatartist

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2016, 06:57:11 AM »
I lived abroad for over two years. That is what did it for me - not going to Paris for three days or Amsterdam for five. I agree with those above that this aspect of people's argument strains credibility. Being in a foreign land doing touristy things doesn't somehow magically lead you to be more open-minded.

Plus I imagine most of us live in cities with lots of different cultures. I can drive 5 minutes and interact with immigrants. Heck, I can walk a minute away. A family of eight Syrian refugees live around the corner from me. One goes to school with my son.

+1

But of course, to each their own ;)

I traveled a lot in my 20s and 30s. But most of the time, I structured it around things like a university course (DIY study abroad for half the cost of my university programs), a sculpture apprenticeship with free room & board, a summer of arts volunteering within a community which turned into working with a fringe biennale (for free, of course ;). From a temporary 'home base' I'd take short trips and explore the region. This provided educational opportunities to explore my generally underpaid field in different parts of the world, at a very low cost.

Later, the structure became work projects: books/illustrations, arts workshops, eventually working full-time in education -- though not something I want to do forever, this has been a good way to earn a healthy salary and provides visas and community while living in places which stimulate my artwork. So, it worked out mostly ok for me. And discovering MMM has ensured that financially things will be ok too, even though I didn't spend my 20s saving...

Miss Prim

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2016, 07:02:23 AM »
I totally disagree with this!  Travel Racing monster trucks with hyper-charged engines is my all time favorite thing to do and I would feel impoverished if I didn't travel race monster trucks with hyper-charged engines!  Mustachianism is about spending on the things you enjoy, not just accumulating money!  So I should just accumulate money and than what, sit in my house?  I would die!  I have worked my entire life to be able to travel race monster trucks with hyper-charged engines.  What a miserable existence it would be for me to not be able to do this.  Is that life?  I would say NO! 

To each his own, if you want to sit in your house and putz around, that is great, but one size does not fit all.  My husband and I travel race monster trucks with hyper-charged engines as cheaply as we can, so to me that is mustachian. 

Seriously, this is the worst post I have ever seen!

                                                                                  Miss Prim

Made some changes, that aren't really changes.

Haha!  Cute.  It doesn't really matter what you change it to.  If you have a passion and your house is in order and you have the money to do it without going into debt, then I can't see any problem with it.  We actually do budget $10,000 per year for travel, but we use travel hacks and other methods to make it go far.  And, we are certainly not traveling first class.  Seriously, I hate the mustachian police.  Everyone here has something that they spend money on that someone else would think is not mustachian that we could all point out and make fun of, but to me, that should not be the purpose of this site.  Mindful spending of what brings us joy to me is one of the goals of mustachianism.

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Mr. Green

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2016, 09:37:27 AM »
I think it's all about priorities.  It seems like a lot of people posting on this thread assume they will live a long, healthy life.   I don't assume anything - my father died at 55, having never really seen anything of the world - he had put it off so that he could travel in retirement.  That never happened for him.  Having had that experience, I don't assume I'll live see old age, nor do I assume my kids will, so I want to have a healthy balance - I want to see things now in case I die tomorrow, and I want to be smart with my money so if I live that long, I'll be able to retire and travel a bit then, too.  Living only for the future is a loftly goal but one that can surely bite you in the rear.
Truth. Carpe diem!

Northwestie

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2016, 09:51:37 AM »
Some folks just don't like to travel - period.  Not a big deal.

But - in my experience I feel I have learned a lot about out people and cultures from low-budget travelling.  Two two-month trips in South America, way, way of the main road.  For 6 weeks I saw no one who spoke English and Spanish was the second language.  Could I have Googled all this or read a couple books - yea, but spending time in small villages with the locals, hearing their stories and how they ran their lives was, well, fun and interesting.   And I got to travel and climb with some locals in areas there was no way I could have figured out on my own.

The Taliban on this site just wanna knock ya down.  Don't sweat it.  My take is that there is a sliding scale of what resources folks here have acquired and how they like to spend it.  I'm more interested in the commonalities and advice on some basic practices than knocking folks for their choices of what they do AFTER attaining their goal.  Cheers.

olivia

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2016, 01:59:37 PM »
One thought about traveling in your 20s vs later in life - regardless of whether you feel it will be BETTER or WORSE for you, it will likely be DIFFERENT.
...
All I'm saying is, don't expect to have or want the same experience in your 50s that you'd have in your 20s.

Exactly.

On a different note, I also agree with the idea that travel in your 20s isn't more valuable than travel beyond your 20s. This, to me, is part of the youth-worshiping element of our culture. Because our media focuses on the young and restless, we believe things are most important when done early in adulthood.

We're not saying traveling while young is better, but that it's different.

My travel at age 30 is already different than my travel at age 22.

Delaying travel in your 20s to do it in your 50s guarantees a different experience.  I say you should do BOTH.

My statement was "You will never get another chance to travel at age 25."  You will also never get a chance to travel at age 50.  You will experience it totally differently, with the (hopefully) more wisdom of age.  But the impact during a more formative year can be huge as well.

It's not better, but it's different, and worth doing.

It's rare that someone regrets travel in their 20s, from what I've seen.

We could start a thread, with a poll:
I traveled in my 20s and am glad I did
I traveled in my 20s and wish I hadn't
I didn't travel in my 20s and am glad I didn't
I didn't travel in my 20s and wish I had

I think the second option would get the least amount of votes, personally.  People who travel rarely regret it (exceptions do occur).

I agree completely. My first international trip was at age 17 when I backpacked through Europe for 2 months with my twin sister and the exchange student my family hosted the previous year. It absolutely changed my perspective and world view, and if I ever have kids I'll encourage them to do the same thing.

It was a great financial/life lesson too-my sister and I saved up for the trip for over a year.  My parents only paid for our passports as a birthday gift.  We had to budget for the whole trip, figure out which countries/activities were a priority, etc.  Set us up nicely for going away to college when we got back, where we also had to manage our own money and time.

My parents have both lived all over the world (they actually met on a tiny island in the South Pacific) so they always encouraged my siblings and I to travel. However, we didn't go on many vacations as kids. (Unless you count driving to a family reunion across 4 states with 5 bickering children in a minivan a vacation, which my mom definitely did not! We only did that a couple of times before she vetoed future trips. :P)

Pylortes

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #92 on: March 03, 2016, 04:06:59 PM »
Seems like there is a lot of defensiveness from those posting in this thread.  The OP issued a face punch and apparently its hit a little too close to home for a bunch here (isn't one of the points here to step back and take a careful look at areas where we could be better?).  From my read of his now edited post, I thought it was fairly balanced.  I think the point is to try and be mindful with your travel, not necessarily that you can't travel at all.   I love travel too, but I think this is a fair point for debate and we should not attack the person who started the conversation.

Why jet off to a 5 star resort halfway around the world where you don't  interact with the locals when you haven't even visited the amazing national parks close to home?    The counter-point is fair as well- if you travel involves living, learning and interacting with the local culture that probably has a  lot more value as an experience than the previously mentioned all inclusive resort.  I don't think OP though should be attacked because he issued a face punch that fell a little too close to home for comfort.  The topic seems legit to me and there are points to be had on both sides.  Like most things in life, its probably not a black and white answer, there is a scale of how you can spend your resources on travel. 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 04:08:55 PM by Pylortes »

Cassie

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #93 on: March 03, 2016, 04:27:58 PM »
I totally agree that you should not wait until your 50's to travel because you might not make it.  I was 44 when I took my first trip overseas.  I think going to Europe should be done when you are healthy enough to do all the walking, etc.  The states are much more accessible then Europe. I can remember walking up a few hundred steep  steps in Italy and might not be able to do that in my 70's. There are lots of great places to also see in the states.  WE tend to do both.  We have also taken a couple of cruises and they can be cheap if you find a good deal. Re-positioning cruises are cheaper because they are getting the ships back to where they need them and don't want to sail empty.

tobitonic

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #94 on: March 28, 2016, 08:44:18 PM »
Seems like there is a lot of defensiveness from those posting in this thread.  The OP issued a face punch and apparently its hit a little too close to home for a bunch here (isn't one of the points here to step back and take a careful look at areas where we could be better?).  From my read of his now edited post, I thought it was fairly balanced.  I think the point is to try and be mindful with your travel, not necessarily that you can't travel at all.   I love travel too, but I think this is a fair point for debate and we should not attack the person who started the conversation.

Why jet off to a 5 star resort halfway around the world where you don't  interact with the locals when you haven't even visited the amazing national parks close to home?    The counter-point is fair as well- if you travel involves living, learning and interacting with the local culture that probably has a  lot more value as an experience than the previously mentioned all inclusive resort.  I don't think OP though should be attacked because he issued a face punch that fell a little too close to home for comfort.  The topic seems legit to me and there are points to be had on both sides.  Like most things in life, its probably not a black and white answer, there is a scale of how you can spend your resources on travel.

Agreed, 100%.

elaine amj

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #95 on: March 28, 2016, 09:32:32 PM »
Seems like there is a lot of defensiveness from those posting in this thread.  The OP issued a face punch and apparently its hit a little too close to home for a bunch here (isn't one of the points here to step back and take a careful look at areas where we could be better?).  From my read of his now edited post, I thought it was fairly balanced.  I think the point is to try and be mindful with your travel, not necessarily that you can't travel at all.   I love travel too, but I think this is a fair point for debate and we should not attack the person who started the conversation.

Why jet off to a 5 star resort halfway around the world where you don't  interact with the locals when you haven't even visited the amazing national parks close to home?    The counter-point is fair as well- if you travel involves living, learning and interacting with the local culture that probably has a  lot more value as an experience than the previously mentioned all inclusive resort.  I don't think OP though should be attacked because he issued a face punch that fell a little too close to home for comfort.  The topic seems legit to me and there are points to be had on both sides.  Like most things in life, its probably not a black and white answer, there is a scale of how you can spend your resources on travel.

I agree.  Ppl here will facepunch u about many things - but rarely about travel. As long as it is Mustachian-style travel of course.

I do wonder - does my deep love for the artificial fake world of Disney mean I am a mindless hedonistic consumer? I imagine my multiple tent camping trips where I spend my days hiking and canoeing in Ontario's gorgeous provincial parks would pass muster amongst Mustachians. Although maybe not when I reveal that I cart along my beloved folding foam mattress rather than kill my back on the hard ground.

Anyway, back to topic. Travel is a huge part of my annual budget and I love it. But honestly? I don't find it life changing or whatever. I usually equate it as entertainment. I do choose to optimize it via travel hacking.

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #96 on: March 29, 2016, 04:24:44 AM »
elaine amj,
Quote
I do wonder - does my deep love for the artificial fake world of Disney mean I am a mindless hedonistic consumer?

If you are reflecting (wondering) about the things you love, then you are not mindless. I think it's important to remember that we all value different things in life. IMO, it's not important that your interests conform to the MMM way or mainstream culture so long as you really consider what it is you want and why you want it.

Wekeeprollingdowntheroad

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #97 on: March 29, 2016, 06:43:49 AM »
As a full time traveler- for a few years in my early 20's (alone) and on a shoestring budget, and now in my early 40's with a wife and as much money as we choose to spend(but turns out I still enjoy that shoestring)  I agree with much of all sides of this debate. It's important to take time and reflect, on what we are doing, and why. There is no perfect way- there is no right answer, but hopefully our motives and goals will enrich as much as possible, and harm as few as possible.

GuitarStv

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #98 on: March 29, 2016, 07:15:47 AM »
I didn't travel anywhere in my 20s, and don't really feel like I missed out on a whole lot.

Fortunately thanks to this thread I've learned that not traveling in my 20s made me a racist, small minded, and permanently missing out on an essential part of the human condition.  It's too bad, because I thought things were going well before reading this . . .

ender

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Re: Traveling is just another form of consumerism, possibly the ultimate
« Reply #99 on: March 29, 2016, 07:26:54 AM »
I didn't travel anywhere in my 20s, and don't really feel like I missed out on a whole lot.

Fortunately thanks to this thread I've learned that not traveling in my 20s made me a racist, small minded, and permanently missing out on an essential part of the human condition.  It's too bad, because I thought things were going well before reading this . . .

I lived abroad before I was 20, but never after that - does that make me a horrible person too?

I don't have any real strong opinions either way on this. But I do find it amusing when people who travel often are judgmental towards others for driving so much (think of the environment!) as flying is not exactly a fuel efficient mode of transportation.