Tithing, or otherwise giving money to a church

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

This might be a bit contentious, but I'm really ..... shocked, I guess.

I have a friend who's a tradesman, and on pretty average money. He has a wife and small child to look after. His church just built a new, large  building for worship, My friend has been working on the building for free, no issue with that, but he's also emptied his bank account to pay for the bloody thing! He's self employed, he has no retirement fund, and now his family are literally pay check to paycheck to fund a bloody building! If something goes wrong, if he gets sick or whatever, who pays the bills? The church? Call me cynical but I doubt that.

Apparently tithing is pretty common in a lot of poorer communities. I have another friend who's a budget advisor in a low income area, and she says that one of the biggest things she tries to get families to consider cutting is tithing! These are generally families who are in serious debt and really facing ruin.

What's your take on this?

[Sailor Sam]

It's a question that occasionally crops up. You might enjoy reading some of the older threads:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/tithing-with-a-%27stache/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/tithing-questions/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-non-negotiable-tithe/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/why-do-you-tithe-when-you%27re-in-debt/

In general, there's a group that says tithing at all times is moronic; a group that says tithing in general is okay, but tithing while in horrible debt is moronic; and a group that says tithing is mandatory at all times because the bible.

I'm part of the center group. I donate 10% of my salary to charity, but I only started once I got out of my post-college poverty. Once I had a real job, and 1k in the bank, I felt it was time to start giving back. I started sporadically, and worked my way up to 10%. I still had 16k in student loans, but I was saving 15% and firmly on my own feet.

I'm very happy with the path I took, but I don't push it on anyone. We all get to make our own moral choices. If I was counseling a tither in deep debt, I'd suggest some alternate path to donation. Either volunteering, or 'paying back' the tithe once the debt is discharged. But I wouldn't push it, or think them stupid if they insisted on continuing to tithe in real time.

The fact that poorer people tend to donate more generously is always a curious psychological phenomenon. It fascinates me.

[FINate]

We tithe, though we're also FIRE so very different place than your friend. We also very intentionally sought out a small church w/o ambitions to build buildings or other such nonsense. If we outgrow our current [rented] venue the plan is to spin off an unaffiliated church because from what we can tell social bonds start to breakdown once a group exceeds about 150 people, and spiritual formation usually happens in the context of smaller groups.

Although we intentionally avoid churches that are building new buildings because we don't think it's a great use of resources, it doesn't bother me if other people do as long as it isn't causing problems elsewhere in their life.

Churches should be teaching on stewardship - a biblical concept that comes from the way households were run in the first century. A manager (or steward) was given a large amount of authority to manage the estate, goods, fellow servants, etc. even though the steward did not own property himself. The central idea is that money, our bodies, life itself, the earth, everything belongs to God and so we should view ourselves as managers or stewards in God's house (all creation) rather than owners. Failing to save for retirement or not having an emergency fund set aside is not being a good steward. Spending every last cent is not being a good steward. (same with not taking care of your body, abusing the environment, and other issues).

I would be willing to bet that they are in a precarious financial position not because they tithe, but rather because their outlook on life and money is off. Instead of viewing money as a precious gift that must be responsibly managed it's very likely that they view it as a means to achieving happiness through consumption. While this is very much a product of modern Western culture, the church IMO has generally (and unfortunately) done a piss poor job of countering this.

[wordnerd]

The fact that poorer people tend to donate more generously is always a curious psychological phenomenon. It fascinates me.

It interests me as well, and I've thought about it over the years. [Warning: All views expressed herein are not evidence-based and rely heavily on anecdote and conjecture] Low-income people often will need help from their communities at some point, so paying into a community-based system makes sense. My BIL, for instance, has often had his rent paid by his church to keep from being evicted, but he also gives to his church when he has the money. I think receiving from an institution would make it (emotionally) easier to give, and giving would make it easier (emotionally) to receive (especially for people with a lot of pride). High-income people don't need help, generally, and are, again generally, less needing of community and pay it less attention. I think these types of dynamics could harden into different cultural expectations around giving in different social classes as well.

One other consideration is that higher-income people (generally) pay more taxes. Higher-income people might think of the community as their state or country, and that their taxes cover their contribution. Lower-income people who might gain more tangible benefit from their immediate community (church, neighbors, etc.) might define their community more narrowly and seek to contribute directly to that.

[Wise Virgin]

The 10% rule saves the cheap person from his or her cheapness, because there is a set figure expected. The 10% rule also saves the overgenerous person from heedless bankruptcy, because at 10% the tithing requirement stops.

What your friend is doing by emptying his bank account is not tithing and is not God's rule. He is perhaps doing it for a human reason. Humans have many reasons for the things they do, some going back to childhood. Often these reasons are good and generous but err in the way they are carried out.

That being said - miraculous things do happen in the lives of people who are generous with God. Really.

If it's a human reason he's doing it, it will come to nothing and pass away.

[FINate]

Oops...I posted this on the duplicate thread...reposting here...

We tithe, though we're also FIRE so very different place than your friend. We also very intentionally sought out a small church w/o ambitions to build buildings or other such nonsense. If we outgrow our current [rented] venue the plan is to spin off an unaffiliated church because from what we can tell social bonds start to breakdown once a group exceeds about 150 people, and spiritual formation usually happens in the context of smaller groups.

Although we intentionally avoid churches that are building new buildings because we don't think it's a great use of resources, it doesn't bother me if other people do as long as it isn't causing problems elsewhere in their life.

Churches should be teaching on stewardship - a biblical concept that comes from the way households were run in the first century. A manager (or steward) was given a large amount of authority to manage the estate, goods, fellow servants, etc. even though the steward did not own property himself. The central idea is that money, our bodies, life itself, the earth, everything belongs to God and so we should view ourselves as managers or stewards in God's house (all creation) rather than owners. Failing to save for retirement or not having an emergency fund set aside is not being a good steward. Spending every last cent is not being a good steward. (same with not taking care of your body, abusing the environment, and other issues). Tithing (and charity in general) should not be an issue if people are doing a good job of stewarding resources.

I would be willing to bet that they are in a precarious financial position not because they tithe, but rather because their outlook on life and money is off. Instead of viewing money as a precious gift that must be responsibly managed it's very likely that they view it as a means to achieving happiness through consumption. While this is very much a product of modern Western culture, the church IMO has generally (and unfortunately) done a piss poor job of countering this.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Just to be clear, I'm definitely not blaming any church. Most of them do an amazing job of looking after their communities. And I doubt that there was any expectation of donation that MADE my friend donate his life savings. Maybe there's a responsibility not to take large cheques from low to medium income families.

[Lepetitange3]

That being said, there are churches that deliberately take advantage of the impoverished, encouraging them to give vast sums of money to the church and then all their prayers will be answered.  It's evil.

[NV Teacher]

That being said, there are churches that deliberately take advantage of the impoverished, encouraging them to give vast sums of money to the church and then all their prayers will be answered.  It's evil.

I was raised in a church that preaches about tithing A LOT.  It is expected that members pay 10% on gross income.  I paid it for years and years and years.  Then I started learning about the vast holdings the church has around the world like shopping malls, private hunting preserves, luxury condominium buildings, multi-million dollar houses of worship, and hundreds of thousands of acres of ranch/farm land.  My tithing payments stopped the day a high level church official told members that if they had to decide between feeding their children and paying their tithing they should pay their tithing.  I now help people in my local community when I see a need.  I know that 100% of my gift goes straight to someone that needs it and not to a multi-billion dollar corporation.

[MrsPete]

Perhaps his idea of a "retirement plan" doesn't match yours! 

Seriously, has he said he has a problem with this?  If not, leave it alone.  Perhaps it's not how you'd spend your time and money, but he's a big boy and has the right to spend his resources as he pleases. 

[WhiteTrashCash]

Tithing is basically a form of insurance for Christians. People outside the Christian community don't seem to really understand that. But really, why would they understand it if they haven't experienced it? I talk about that a little bit in my journal.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

Perhaps his idea of a "retirement plan" doesn't match yours! 

Seriously, has he said he has a problem with this?  If not, leave it alone.  Perhaps it's not how you'd spend your time and money, but he's a big boy and has the right to spend his resources as he pleases.

I would never comment to him about it. It's totally his business. I just wonder what happened to God helps those who help themselves. He's only got to be sick or injured for a few weeks and that family is going to be destitute. Actually, my attitude is more 'how dare you pay a frickin organisation over ensuring some financial stability for your new baby?!". But, like I said, I have no intention of commenting to him about it.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

My tithing payments stopped the day a high level church official told members that if they had to decide between feeding their children and paying their tithing they should pay their tithing.

That is just completely irresponsible and selfish. The thought of kids going without so the church gets money makes me livid.

[Joeko]

I can see both sides of the argument but I question:

Why is the church raising money for a fancy building when the money could go to feed starving children and families?

Some Churches use their donations to do some remarkable work...others are more incentivized by fancy buildings and stuff for the church leaders.

[Syonyk]

We also very intentionally sought out a small church w/o ambitions to build buildings or other such nonsense. If we outgrow our current [rented] venue the plan is to spin off an unaffiliated church because from what we can tell social bonds start to breakdown once a group exceeds about 150 people, and spiritual formation usually happens in the context of smaller groups.

You don't happen to be at a descriptively named church in southwest Idaho, do you? :)  That sounds exactly like the church I attend - small, renting space (a school), deliberate plan to plant a new church if we get too big, focus on small groups.

Or, pretty much, what the Bible says about churches.

Churches should be teaching on stewardship - a biblical concept that comes from the way households were run in the first century. A manager (or steward) was given a large amount of authority to manage the estate, goods, fellow servants, etc. even though the steward did not own property himself. The central idea is that money, our bodies, life itself, the earth, everything belongs to God and so we should view ourselves as managers or stewards in God's house (all creation) rather than owners. Failing to save for retirement or not having an emergency fund set aside is not being a good steward. Spending every last cent is not being a good steward. (same with not taking care of your body, abusing the environment, and other issues). Tithing (and charity in general) should not be an issue if people are doing a good job of stewarding resources.

I cannot agree more. :)  And, further, one should expect the church to exhibit the same - keep a rainy day fund, meet expenses, but also be generous as possible.  Our church sets aside 10% of giving for giving back to our local community in a variety of ways, and it's basically a "fund to meet local needs," and that's the guideline.  We've purchased transportation for families, helped keep people in apartments while they were between jobs, and plenty of other stuff along those lines, in our community.

I would be willing to bet that they are in a precarious financial position not because they tithe, but rather because their outlook on life and money is off. Instead of viewing money as a precious gift that must be responsibly managed it's very likely that they view it as a means to achieving happiness through consumption. While this is very much a product of modern Western culture, the church IMO has generally (and unfortunately) done a piss poor job of countering this.

That's likely as well - sadly, a depressingly large amount of "money education" in our economy is from the companies that benefit from you spending money.  Think about how many people "run a balance on their credit cards because it's good for their credit score" - or get more car than they can really afford, "because a car loan is good for your credit score."  Actually, mostly, I think the credit rating companies handle education, which is terrible.  Or, at least, they influence the people who teach money.  Taking on debt "for your credit score" is insanely frequently taught.

The Bible has plenty of teaching on money (both in the Old Testament and New Testament - Jesus talked about money a lot), and an awful lot of people don't seem to desire to follow that teaching.

=========

That said, I don't think "emptying one's bank account to pay for a church building" is a particularly wise decision.  I have no problems with giving towards a project, but we're commanded to provide for our families, and pushing things to the edge there, if one has an alternative, isn't Biblical (per my current understanding of the Bible's teachings on money).

Why is the church raising money for a fancy building when the money could go to feed starving children and families?

Some Churches use their donations to do some remarkable work...others are more incentivized by fancy buildings and stuff for the church leaders.

Matthew 28:18-20

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

I've seen churches use large buildings to reach people quite effectively - and I've seen some that are obviously more focused on elder/pastor luxury.  It's a discernment issue, unfortunately, and there's no generic answer.

[WhiteTrashCash]

I've seen churches use large buildings to reach people quite effectively - and I've seen some that are obviously more focused on elder/pastor luxury.  It's a discernment issue, unfortunately, and there's no generic answer.

I think anti-theists can often be the sort who simply enjoy putting people into categories and then condemning those categories based on their assumptions. Human beings are what they are and churches are made up of human beings, so some churches are run well and others are run poorly. Some churches are community-focused and some churches are scams designed to enrich unscrupulous pastors who really are little more than cult leaders. There is so much diversity in Christianity, but unless they are actively involved in it, people just make sweeping generalizations about things they really don't understand.

Good rule of thumb when choosing a church: If your church is part of a larger organization with a proven track record of public service to go with their spiritual services, they are probably okay. If your church is a single entity run by the same pastor for decades and has no proven record of services, it's probably a scam.

[FINate]

You don't happen to be at a descriptively named church in southwest Idaho, do you? :)  That sounds exactly like the church I attend - small, renting space (a school), deliberate plan to plant a new church if we get too big, focus on small groups.

We're a generically named church in Santa Cruz, CA :) Always love hearing about other small, healthy churches. There are a lot more of these than people realize - authentic community where people genuinely love God and others first, and live lives congruent with these values.  They don't make the headlines (for good or bad) so no one ever hears about them. A Pastor named Karl Vaters is working to get the word out about the beauty of small healthy churches and his book The Grasshopper Myth is worth checking out. Our church was already well underway in embracing smallness, but this book helped to further refine our thinking.

Tithing is basically a form of insurance for Christians. People outside the Christian community don't seem to really understand that. But really, why would they understand it if they haven't experienced it? I talk about that a little bit in my journal.

Just to be clear, this is not a universally (or widely, I might add) held position among Christians :) Not saying it's not true for some, but the Biblical reason for tithing is to acknowledge in a very concrete and actionable way that everything belongs to God's, and so the giving of firstfruits is an act of worship and trust. As Jesus said "you cannot serve both God and money"  (sadly some churches have not heeded these words)

My tithing payments stopped the day a high level church official told members that if they had to decide between feeding their children and paying their tithing they should pay their tithing.

That is just completely irresponsible and selfish. The thought of kids going without so the church gets money makes me livid.

This is evil and not at all Biblical - it also makes me livid. A church is a community where needs should be met. If someone in the community is having trouble putting food on the table (a true necessity) the church is *required* to care for that person/family. Churches are filled with people, and sometimes those people are evil. Don't just stop tithing, but run away from such places! There are many good churches out there with healthy priorities, seek those out.

[Paul der Krake]

I'm from a catholic country and know some pretty religious people, including one family whose youngest son embraced celibacy and became a priest. The idea that they would give 10% of their incomes to the Church is laughable. I have never heard of anyone doing that.

But then again the Church owns prime real estate in virtually every single one of the 30,000+ towns. The priests don't own BMWs or large houses, and there's a guestbook instead of a video conferencing system.

[Syonyk]

I think anti-theists can often be the sort who simply enjoy putting people into categories and then condemning those categories based on their assumptions.

And then shriek horribly if anyone does the same to their preferred groups and categories...

[Bucksandreds]

I'm from a catholic country and know some pretty religious people, including one family whose youngest son embraced celibacy and became a priest. The idea that they would give 10% of their incomes to the Church is laughable. I have never heard of anyone doing that.

But then again the Church owns prime real estate in virtually every single one of the 30,000+ towns. The priests don't own BMWs or large houses, and there's a guestbook instead of a video conferencing system.

I'm catholic and the Catholic Church has a lot of problems but tithing isn't as big of an issue where I come from. My parents were some of the biggest donators to our church and maybe gave 3-4% of their income. Catholic Churches are 100 or more years old, priests take vows of poverty and parishioners expect community engagement and prayer, not luxury. Even still, I can't bring myself to be acting be in any church. Catholicism has a great message, but the humans involved F everything up. (See covering up molesting, judging others on issues that Jesus' example clearly wouldn't be judging)

[VoteCthulu]

I think it's crazy, but a lot less harmful than many other crazy things people do that I don't understand, like building huge cc debt buying cloths, financing $50k cars, buying lutefisk, etc.

[ChpBstrd]

Giving 10% to a church is not the same thing as giving 10% to a charity. A tiny fraction of almost any church's budget goes to tangibly helping people outside the organization. Most is spent on salaries, facilities, equipment, insurance, utilities, and service delivery. Ask your church accountant. Some churches spend huge sums of donated money on marketing too.

Spending money on a church is more comparable to country club or fraternity dues than, say, your local battered women's shelter, free clinic, nonprofit addiction center, literacy organization, or legal advocacy group. As with country clubs or fraternities, have you noticed how the groups who pay the most for the nicest facilities, events, and marketing gain new members the fastest?

When poor people pay to be respected members of a church, they're essentially buying a sense of social status amd entertainment. I won't try to tell them how to spend their money (presuming they aren't neglecting kids). I won't even tell them how the Bible says nothing about the way modern churches operate (except for Matthew 6:5-6 of course). But no, I won't think of them as sacrificing for charity. Not when churches serve the same function as McMansions and flashy cars, except with a veneer of theology.

None of this is the popular thing to say, but if you're outraged, ask yourself whether you pay for popularity. Ask yourself if that's the only possible way to be a Christian.

[FINate]

I don't have to ask the accountant because our church shares a record of income and expenses every year. Our biggest expense is the lead pastor, our solo full time staff. His salary is *very* modest. After that, rent. Then misc. costs of running an organization and various ministries. Pastoring a church is more than a full time job and I don't mind giving to something that supports solid teaching and counseling from someone that went to seminary, has good insights, and has challenged me to grow in ways I wouldn't have on my own.

Tithes go mostly to support these operational things, but our church is also quite involved in serving in the community including providing free volunteer run after school programs, serving at the women's shelter, food distribution for a local food bank, etc. And then there is a lot of support provided to those in need within the church, which is often things like people providing free long term child care for families that have experienced the death of a parent and need support while they get things back in order, or volunteer days to fix up houses/yards for those who for whatever reason can't do this on their own. I've never bothered to estimate the value of these things because to me these are extras and not the main purpose of tithing, but it's significant relative to our modest budget.

Agree though that some (many?) churches don't operate this way and are mostly about the 3 Bs: buildings, bodies, and bucks.

[Sydneystache]

We visited a church over the weekend in a relatively "poor" (in money but not in spirit) rural community. We are not frequent churchgoers but when the in laws are with us, we join for the tradition.

Their last weekly collection came to a total of $132. So it was only fair that we donated $100 and boost the coffers a bit. Would I donate that amount at a wealthy urban church? Hell no. When there are thousands of bodies, $5 per head is sufficient. When there are 20 people (including us) attending the service, well the $ per head becomes a bit more significant. We can afford it, we rarely visit and we know it is going to ease the church's running costs for a bit.

[startingsmall]

I don't have to ask the accountant because our church shares a record of income and expenses every year. Our biggest expense is the lead pastor, our solo full time staff. His salary is *very* modest. After that, rent. Then misc. costs of running an organization and various ministries. Pastoring a church is more than a full time job and I don't mind giving to something that supports solid teaching and counseling from someone that went to seminary, has good insights, and has challenged me to grow in ways I wouldn't have on my own.

Tithes go mostly to support these operational things, but our church is also quite involved in serving in the community including providing free volunteer run after school programs, serving at the women's shelter, food distribution for a local food bank, etc. And then there is a lot of support provided to those in need within the church, which is often things like people providing free long term child care for families that have experienced the death of a parent and need support while they get things back in order, or volunteer days to fix up houses/yards for those who for whatever reason can't do this on their own. I've never bothered to estimate the value of these things because to me these are extras and not the main purpose of tithing, but it's significant relative to our modest budget.

Agree though that some (many?) churches don't operate this way and are mostly about the 3 Bs: buildings, bodies, and bucks.

Yes to all of this. I don't have a copy of our church budget in front of me, but my husband is a FT pastor.

Our church technically has ~250 members, though about 125 attend on any given Sunday. We're located in a poor, rural community in the South. Again, all of these numbers are just guesstimates because I don't have a copy of our budget (or even last Sunday's bulletin) in front of me, but our church's expenses break down roughly like this. (Also, I should add that our church's organizational structure gives my husband little to no control over budget/spending - that's decided by an elected board of members.)

Annual budget ~ $120,000

My husband's total compensation: $40k salary + $10k health insurance
- He has "office hours" from 9am-1pm 4 days per week. During this time, he meets with members as needed, works with the secretary on various issues, handles administrative stuff, works on coordinating services (choosing hymns, scripture readings, etc), coordinates putting together the weekly bulletin, writes newsletter articles, etc.
- Several afternoons per week, he visits homebound members in their homes or nursing homes, visits hospitalized members, etc. Other afternoons, he comes home for sermon prep or some time off.
- He is "on call" 24/7 for any emotional, spiritual, or medical emergencies that arise. On average, he gets one late-night call every couple of weeks that requires him to go rushing to the hospital. (Most of our congregation is elderly, so lots of heart attacks, etc.) We've cancelled dinner plans so he could meet with a member, he takes calls on vacation (fortunately, we're one of the few pastor's families I know that hasn't had to end a vacation early yet!), he has stayed at the church til midnight trying to help a couple with marital issues, etc.
- Typically he spends 2-3  scheduled evenings per week at church, leading bible studies, attending committee meetings, etc.
- If church events occur on a Saturday, he's there. (For example, this Saturday he attended an event with the youth - left home around 6am and returned around midnight.) If there's nothing scheduled for Saturday, then he actually gets two days off that week....  but usually spends Saturday working on his sermon.
- Writes his sermon on evenings or his days off. Typically, he spends about 10-15 hrs/wk on sermon prep.
- Sunday mornings, we're typically at church from 10-12:40ish.
- Sunday afternoon/evening meetings. This doesn't happen every week, it just depends what committees are meeting in a given week and what's going on in the church. This past Sunday (for example) he was in meetings from 2pm-8pm.

Church secretary's salary: $8k
- Church secretary also works 4 days/wk from 9am-1pm. She's there to answer the phones, put together the church bulletin, put together funeral bulletins, set up phone trees to share announcements with the congregation, coordinate service people that need to visit the church (plumber, cable guy, etc) and assist my husband with other stuff.

Choir director's salary: $12k
- She keeps the church music organized, orders new music, coordinates with my husband on choosing music for each week's service and special services, leads choir practice 1-2 nights/wk, plays during the Sunday service and any special services (funerals, etc)

Other salaries: $10k? maybe?
- Not sure of the exact amount, but the church also employs a bookkeeper for a few hrs/wk, a sexton (janitor) for a few hours/wk, and a historian/newsletter person.

Community giving: $10-12k
- Approximately 10% of our budget is distributed to other charities within the community - including a local children's home, volunteer fire department, homeless shelter, domestic violence shelter, a program that does home repairs for low-income individuals, and other local programs.

The rest of the money goes towards things like....
- Youth programs (they fundraise for most things, but do get a small budget)
- Ministerial programs (my husband has a small budget that he can use for books, etc)
- Music (the choir director has a small budget that she can use to buy new music)
- Emergency funds (we have several members who sometimes need help paying their bills.... also, community members sometimes come in asking for money and my husband keeps a stock of gas/grocery gift cards on hand for those individuals)
- Children's programs (vacation bible school, easter egg hunt, trunk or treat, etc)
- Building upkeep, utilities, maintenance (no small task on a 109-yr-old building)


I don't deny that there are some churches out there with crazy budgets, but most churches these days are like ours... small churches that are just barely scraping by.  Most of the money that is put in comes directly back to the members in terms of church programs or pastoral care (ie. having an on-call counselor... my husband has spent many hours sitting by people in the hospital, helping parents problem-solve situations with their children, helping couples through marital issues, etc.)

On a purely transactional level, I think WhiteTrashCash's view of church membership as a form of insurance is absolutely correct. You're joining this community and giving with the knowledge that this community will someday be there for you - whether in the form of financial assistance, free counseling in a time of crisis, or free funeral services. I don't think that's how many people actually view it, but I don't think that's an inaccurate statement. Some percentage of the money is typically going into the wider community, but much of the budget (at least in smaller churches) is used to help the immediate church family.

As far as the 10% thing, some pastors adhere to that and some do not. My husband is absolutely NOT a 10%-er. If he were posting, he'd say that 10% is an old rule under the old covenant, and that the new covenant brought about by Jesus takes away the 10% rule and we should now give as we are comfortable giving. Our household giving is just under 10%, largely because he views working 50+ hrs/wk with a master's degree for only $40k as a form of charity in an of itself. Of the ~8% of our income that we give away, just under half of that goes to our church...  it feels weird to give money that it is going to come right back in the form of his salary, so we always earmark our contributions for a specific purpose depending on what's happening in the church (for example, the last few months we've earmarked our giving for music, because our new choir director is trying to replace some of our 50+ yr old sheet music and doesn't have an adequate budget to do very much). The rest of our money goes to other local and national organizations, some Christian and some secular.

Just my $0.02.... I really wish our church did more outreach, and I hope someday he'll be able to find a job in a church that places more of an emphasis on that!

[iris lily]

I am in the odd position here of valuing church buildings over anyhing else. I am not a believer, and I am indifferent to social welfare work of churches. But damn, I do love the rich architectural heritage that the (mostly) Catholic churches provide here. Within 1.5 miles of my home, in an urban core in an old city, ther are 10 fabulous 100+ year old churches  of varying styles. I get anxious whenever there is another round of church closings by the Catholics.

In my immediate neighborhood are 4 churches, two functioning as such (an original Methodist congregation, and one of those new/young/Gathering-type congregations.) the other two church buildings have been turned into condos and residences.

I have given small donations o er the years to various. Hurchs, always earmarked for the building fund. All of tese old chirches have a building fund because they are so expensive to maintain.

[runewell]

I just wonder what happened to God helps those who help themselves.

That's not in the Bible.

I have always given 10% to whichever church I choose to call home, and give some extra beyond that to certain ministries at my discretion.  This has no doubt moved my potential retirement date back a few years, but then again God isn't necessarily about early retirement either.  Before we get on anyone's case who prefers to tithe, consider that one day we will all give account for our actions as well as our spending, and I wonder how God will react to people who were so consumed at increasing a net worth with the intention of retiring early and spending it all on themselves at the expense of churches and individuals who could have put the money to better use.

[Milizard]

I throw all my money up in the air and let God keep any and all of what He needs.

In other words, God doesn't need any money, duh!  If you want to support your church, ministry, charity, whatever, that's wonderful, but don't say it's giving it to God.  You can practice having gratitude without any money changing hands.  I mean, what is a tithe supposed to be a tip for God?  Now he's not even getting as much as your waitstaff!  You should raise it to 15% 18%, no make it easy and do 20%!




(For those without a sense of humor, that was tongue in cheek)

[powskier]

All powerful deity needs money ASAP, even if it makes your life harder.

Giving to charity is one thing, giving to churches is another. I'll just stop there.

[Sailor Sam]

I just wonder what happened to God helps those who help themselves.

That's not in the Bible.

I have always given 10% to whichever church I choose to call home, and give some extra beyond that to certain ministries at my discretion.  This has no doubt moved my potential retirement date back a few years, but then again God isn't necessarily about early retirement either.  Before we get on anyone's case who prefers to tithe, consider that one day we will all give account for our actions as well as our spending, and I wonder how God will react to people who were so consumed at increasing a net worth with the intention of retiring early and spending it all on themselves at the expense of churches and individuals who could have put the money to better use.

Thankfully, this is blissfully none of my concern. The only actions I'll have to justify, should there actually be any moment in front of the scale, are my own. It's a pretty relaxing way to live.

[tiger002]

Churches should be teaching on stewardship - a biblical concept that comes from the way households were run in the first century. A manager (or steward) was given a large amount of authority to manage the estate, goods, fellow servants, etc. even though the steward did not own property himself. The central idea is that money, our bodies, life itself, the earth, everything belongs to God and so we should view ourselves as managers or stewards in God's house (all creation) rather than owners. Failing to save for retirement or not having an emergency fund set aside is not being a good steward. Spending every last cent is not being a good steward. (same with not taking care of your body, abusing the environment, and other issues).

I really like the way you put stewardship. We're given these various resources by God to use. Part of this should be giving back to God, but another part should be to take care of ourselves and family. And if for whatever reason you don't feel your church is taken good care of the money its been given, then don't give to them, find another charity that you feel you can trust with your gift.

Some people have raises a point that churches spend only a small amount on physical needs in the community so shouldn't be given to, but the churches are also serving spiritual needs of the community as well which take people and buildings.

[ditheca]

... My tithing payments stopped the day a high level church official told members that if they had to decide between feeding their children and paying their tithing they should pay their tithing.  I now help people in my local community when I see a need.  I know that 100% of my gift goes straight to someone that needs it and not to a multi-billion dollar corporation...

If keeping the commandments is a prerequisite to financial support from a "multi-billion dollar corporation" church, I feel like you'd be rather foolish to stop paying tithing at the very moment you need assistance.  That nameless official was correct to suggest continued observance of the tithe, given the proper context of all the resources the church would have made available to this hypothetical poor family.  Food, shelter, education, and employment opportunities are all potentially on the table for a rather low price.  (10% of very little).

Also, on a forum largely dedicated to financial independence, are you really objecting to a church following the same principles?  All the investments you mentioned seem like reasonable wealth preservation tools to me.  Do you expect a church, school, or charity to give away their entire endowment, or stick it in a bank account at 0% interest?

[PoutineLover]

I think that giving to your local church is a nice thing to do, if you are a member of that community and it matters to you. But I don't think giving to the point that you can't feed your family is the responsible or right thing to do, because I think any reasonable god would want you to take care of your family's immediate needs first. And there are plenty of churches that waste donations and ruin their members for non godly purposes, and they are shitty but no different from shitty charities or mlms. Not sure if my opinion matters much, I am a lapsed Catholic, due in great part to the illegal and harmful activities of my former priest, as well as the discriminatory and harmful positions of the Catholic Church on matters that are important to me. However, my grandmother was always a strong believer and it brought her comfort and a community, so I do think religion serves a valuable purpose for those who believe, and small community churches do important work. I don't know how much she gave but I'm sure she considered it money well spent.

[cadillacmike]

This might be a bit contentious, but I'm really ..... shocked, I guess.

I have a friend who's a tradesman, and on pretty average money. He has a wife and small child to look after. His church just built a new, large  building for worship, My friend has been working on the building for free, no issue with that, but he's also emptied his bank account to pay for the bloody thing! He's self employed, he has no retirement fund, and now his family are literally pay check to paycheck to fund a bloody building! If something goes wrong, if he gets sick or whatever, who pays the bills? The church? Call me cynical but I doubt that.

Apparently tithing is pretty common in a lot of poorer communities. I have another friend who's a budget advisor in a low income area, and she says that one of the biggest things she tries to get families to consider cutting is tithing! These are generally families who are in serious debt and really facing ruin.

What's your take on this?

Try getting them to shut off the cable TV!

I don't think a set amount or percentage is necessary, and certainly don't think one should go overboard if in serious debt. I also don't think you can buy your way into heaven either.

[FINate]

I throw all my money up in the air and let God keep any and all of what He needs.

All powerful deity needs money ASAP, even if it makes your life harder.

God doesn't need anyone's money. The church thrived during the first three centuries of its existence when it was persecuted, driven underground, and derided as a religion for people of low status (slaves, women, and children at that time - http://www.bluffton.edu/courses/humanities/1/celsus.htm). Christ's church will continue on even if there's no money for buildings or programs. IMO this may even be better for the church because buildings and programs usually become distractions.

"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." You have decided to give zero, that's ok. Going out on a limb here, guessing that you're not a follower of Christ so it wouldn't make sense to give in the first place. Interestingly, it's often those giving a lot to a church (rather than too little) that need reminding that God doesn't need their money, otherwise they may think too highly of themselves.

Done correctly tithing can promote MMM ethics. I know that sounds strange so let me explain. My understanding of MMM is that it's not just about FIRE; at a deeper level it's about subverting the existing norms of consumption that are destroying the environment. Tithing is first and foremost an act of worship, and true worship involves sacrifice. The old testament laws for animal sacrifices area a good example of this - sacrificing a bull, sheep, or goat was costly. Yes, you are supposed to feel it in your pocket book. The Bible talks a lot about money because there's such a strong tendency to worship it (look at how much people are willing to sacrifice to get it!).  As Jesus said: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Tithing is a way of continually reminding yourself that you don't worship money and as such it's something you're willing to sacrifice. This in turn results in treating money as a necessary tool for life and a focus on contentment, rather than chasing for happiness through consumption. As Paul writes in 1 Timothy "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."

[StarBright]

This might be a bit contentious, but I'm really ..... shocked, I guess.

I have a friend who's a tradesman, and on pretty average money. He has a wife and small child to look after. His church just built a new, large  building for worship, My friend has been working on the building for free, no issue with that, but he's also emptied his bank account to pay for the bloody thing! He's self employed, he has no retirement fund, and now his family are literally pay check to paycheck to fund a bloody building! If something goes wrong, if he gets sick or whatever, who pays the bills? The church? Call me cynical but I doubt that.

Apparently tithing is pretty common in a lot of poorer communities. I have another friend who's a budget advisor in a low income area, and she says that one of the biggest things she tries to get families to consider cutting is tithing! These are generally families who are in serious debt and really facing ruin.

What's your take on this?

This makes me very thankful for our priest who called us to make sure we could afford it when he noticed that we upped our monthly contribution this year. He basically said "You have a young family, make sure your needs are covered. Are you saving for your children's college?"

[Krum312]

I've seen the financial benefits of giving money to the church. While growing up, my family claimed to struggle financially while living among the wealthy upper class in the suburbs. My parents always gave to the church and never needed help paying the mortgage.

After purchasing a $100 church raffle ticket, my father won $15k. He invested that into a small business. Twenty years later he has over ten employees, a mcmansion, a vacation home, and five  gas guzzling 8 cylinder vehicles. I'm sure he is still giving money to the church.

A friend of a friend told me that she gives to charities and the catholic church and doesn't like her taxes supporting social welfare programs. This is a military wife who has lived off tax payers for twenty years. From my experience in the military, there was so many more wasted tax dollars than any social welfare programs. I digress.

Growing up in a Catholic town has had its ups and downs. The architecture of the churches is absolutely incredible. Google images of the St. Louis Cathedral.

[cadillacmike]

I've seen the financial benefits of giving money to the church. While growing up, my family claimed to struggle financially while living among the wealthy upper class in the suburbs. My parents always gave to the church and never needed help paying the mortgage.

After purchasing a $100 church raffle ticket, my father won $15k. He invested that into a small business. Twenty years later he has over ten employees, a mcmansion, a vacation home, and five  gas guzzling 8 cylinder vehicles. I'm sure he is still giving money to the church.

A friend of a friend told me that she gives to charities and the catholic church and doesn't like her taxes supporting social welfare programs. This is a military wife who has lived off tax payers for twenty years. From my experience in the military, there was so many more wasted tax dollars than any social welfare programs. I digress.

Growing up in a Catholic town has had its ups and downs. The architecture of the churches is absolutely incredible. Google images of the St. Louis Cathedral.

Then blame congress & various administrations for jumping down rabbit holes.

I spent 5 deployments (on the ground, not flying over at 30,000 feet) and have lost friends in the desert, so I don't take very kindly to the above.

I do agree that there is a tremendous amount of waste in the DoD, I've seen it, but congress needs to be held accountable.

[Freedomin5]

I throw all my money up in the air and let God keep any and all of what He needs.

All powerful deity needs money ASAP, even if it makes your life harder.

God doesn't need anyone's money. The church thrived during the first three centuries of its existence when it was persecuted, driven underground, and derided as a religion for people of low status (slaves, women, and children at that time - http://www.bluffton.edu/courses/humanities/1/celsus.htm). Christ's church will continue on even if there's no money for buildings or programs. IMO this may even be better for the church because buildings and programs usually become distractions.

"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." You have decided to give zero, that's ok. Going out on a limb here, guessing that you're not a follower of Christ so it wouldn't make sense to give in the first place. Interestingly, it's often those giving a lot to a church (rather than too little) that need reminding that God doesn't need their money, otherwise they may think too highly of themselves.

Done correctly tithing can promote MMM ethics. I know that sounds strange so let me explain. My understanding of MMM is that it's not just about FIRE; at a deeper level it's about subverting the existing norms of consumption that are destroying the environment. Tithing is first and foremost an act of worship, and true worship involves sacrifice. The old testament laws for animal sacrifices area a good example of this - sacrificing a bull, sheep, or goat was costly. Yes, you are supposed to feel it in your pocket book. The Bible talks a lot about money because there's such a strong tendency to worship it (look at how much people are willing to sacrifice to get it!).  As Jesus said: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Tithing is a way of continually reminding yourself that you don't worship money and as such it's something you're willing to sacrifice. This in turn results in treating money as a necessary tool for life and a focus on contentment, rather than chasing for happiness through consumption. As Paul writes in 1 Timothy "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."

+1. Well said. Interesting way of framing things.

[Milizard]

I throw all my money up in the air and let God keep any and all of what He needs.

All powerful deity needs money ASAP, even if it makes your life harder.

God doesn't need anyone's money. The church thrived during the first three centuries of its existence when it was persecuted, driven underground, and derided as a religion for people of low status (slaves, women, and children at that time - http://www.bluffton.edu/courses/humanities/1/celsus.htm). Christ's church will continue on even if there's no money for buildings or programs. IMO this may even be better for the church because buildings and programs usually become distractions.

"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." You have decided to give zero, that's ok. Going out on a limb here, guessing that you're not a follower of Christ so it wouldn't make sense to give in the first place. Interestingly, it's often those giving a lot to a church (rather than too little) that need reminding that God doesn't need their money, otherwise they may think too highly of themselves.

Done correctly tithing can promote MMM ethics. I know that sounds strange so let me explain. My understanding of MMM is that it's not just about FIRE; at a deeper level it's about subverting the existing norms of consumption that are destroying the environment. Tithing is first and foremost an act of worship, and true worship involves sacrifice. The old testament laws for animal sacrifices area a good example of this - sacrificing a bull, sheep, or goat was costly. Yes, you are supposed to feel it in your pocket book. The Bible talks a lot about money because there's such a strong tendency to worship it (look at how much people are willing to sacrifice to get it!).  As Jesus said: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Tithing is a way of continually reminding yourself that you don't worship money and as such it's something you're willing to sacrifice. This in turn results in treating money as a necessary tool for life and a focus on contentment, rather than chasing for happiness through consumption. As Paul writes in 1 Timothy "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that."

Oh, I sacrifice plenty every day--much more than a tithe!  I just don't think giving my money to a church that may or may not use it to build monuments to themselves, or to pay off penalties for allowing child predators to continue to abuse children, to be the best use of my sacrifice.

[Syonyk]

So don't attend a church that does those things.

[Milizard]

So don't attend a church that does those things.

Why attend a church at all?  Their doctrine best aligns with your own.  Let's just say, there are a lot of bizarre churches out there when you really dig into it.  There is no perfect one.

IMO, tithing to a church is the easy way out.  One and done, don't even have to think about what they do with what they're given.  I really like how some here truly care how their dollars are spent, and are very careful with where and to whom they give.   Seems like to others, it is merely a checkbox.  Sacrificing 10% to a church which is more like a social club, is that really a sacrifice?

[Syonyk]

Why attend a church at all?

Because it's pretty clear in the New Testament that the Christian life is to be lived out with others, in the form of a local church body.

I'm not a particularly huge fan of the megachurch style churches - I've been part of those, and I've been part of much smaller churches, and the smaller churches are far better places to worship and live out life together - plus, they tend to be a lot more transparent.

[FINate]

Why attend a church at all?

Because it's pretty clear in the New Testament that the Christian life is to be lived out with others, in the form of a local church body.

I'm not a particularly huge fan of the megachurch style churches - I've been part of those, and I've been part of much smaller churches, and the smaller churches are far better places to worship and live out life together - plus, they tend to be a lot more transparent.

^^^THIS. The church is vital (e.g. necessary) in the life of a Christian. The church is the body of Christ. American culture emphasises independence (a.k.a. "rugged individualism"), the idea that we're all islands unto ourselves, but this contradicts scripture. Just as a liver or heart or any other organ cannot live without a body, a believer does not live long without community.

Sitting in a service for a hour/week is not church. Church is about living life together in community. Praying for and helping one another, crying and mourning together, rejoicing together, challenging each other to better things. It requires trust and vulnerability. You will get hurt, you will hurt others. But you will learn to forgive, and how to be forgiven, and experience grace and reconciliation.

Yes, there are some weird churches out there, and churches that don't have their priorities right. But there are also lots of good ones. Look for places where they keep things simple: simple music, straightforward teaching, simple budget, no gimmicks. Places that know what they are and are content with that and aren't trying to be something else.

If you can't find that, then get a couple like-minded people together and start a house church. Doesn't need to be complicated or even an official non-profit. Have one person lead the teaching (can be very simple, straight from scripture), one person in charge of logistics/planning, etc. Can change the roles periodically to share the load. Teach, pray for one another, take communion. Since there's no paid staff and no rent all tithes go to other charities. Have everyone pool their tithes and give to a charity together.

It should also be noted that 9/10 of chruchgoers belong to small to medium size churches (churches with less than 2000 members - http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html). The big mega churches, the ones building huge campuses, represent a relatively small segment of church in the US.

[Syonyk]

Look for places where they keep things simple: simple music, straightforward teaching, simple budget, no gimmicks. Places that know what they are and are content with that and aren't trying to be something else.

I've been quite happy with churches I've found based on two metrics:
- Teaching is predominantly going through books of the Bible.
- It has small groups/life groups/community groups/whatever the term for a few families meeting together mid-week is.

You avoid a lot of the topical "seeker-friendly" nonsense that starts with a conclusion and cherry picks verses out of context to support it, and churches with small groups are making at least some effort to have church be more than just Sunday morning.

House churches are fun too.  You definitely can't hide in the back.

[tct]

... My tithing payments stopped the day a high level church official told members that if they had to decide between feeding their children and paying their tithing they should pay their tithing.  I now help people in my local community when I see a need.  I know that 100% of my gift goes straight to someone that needs it and not to a multi-billion dollar corporation...

If keeping the commandments is a prerequisite to financial support from a "multi-billion dollar corporation" church, I feel like you'd be rather foolish to stop paying tithing at the very moment you need assistance.  That nameless official was correct to suggest continued observance of the tithe, given the proper context of all the resources the church would have made available to this hypothetical poor family.  Food, shelter, education, and employment opportunities are all potentially on the table for a rather low price.  (10% of very little).

Also, on a forum largely dedicated to financial independence, are you really objecting to a church following the same principles?  All the investments you mentioned seem like reasonable wealth preservation tools to me.  Do you expect a church, school, or charity to give away their entire endowment, or stick it in a bank account at 0% interest?

Very good points

[OurTown]

If I tithe, that's my business.  If someone else tithes, that's none of my business.  Same thing if someone else doesn't tithe, also none of my business.  What other people do or don't do = none of my business.

[clarkfan1979]

The fact that poorer people tend to donate more generously is always a curious psychological phenomenon. It fascinates me.

Poor people might appear to be more "generous" because they give a higher percentage of their income. However, they give less than the rich when considering the total amount. It would benefit them and charity if they delayed their giving until they built a stronger foundation of wealth. Worst case scenario, you give 10% of your total wealth when you die.

I plan on creating some sort of college scholarship worth $30,000/year. In order to do that, I need to give around 750K to 1 million. I'm not going to give 10% of my salary until I get to 1 million.

[dreams_and_discoveries]

If I tithe, that's my business.  If someone else tithes, that's none of my business.  Same thing if someone else doesn't tithe, also none of my business.  What other people do or don't do = none of my business.

+ 1

[MrsPete]

Tithing is basically a form of insurance for Christians. People outside the Christian community don't seem to really understand that. But really, why would they understand it if they haven't experienced it? I talk about that a little bit in my journal.

I wouldn't really say "insurance".  More like, it's what you do because it's the right thing to do. 

I would never comment to him about it. It's totally his business. I just wonder what happened to God helps those who help themselves. He's only got to be sick or injured for a few weeks and that family is going to be destitute. Actually, my attitude is more 'how dare you pay a frickin organisation over ensuring some financial stability for your new baby?!". But, like I said, I have no intention of commenting to him about it.

Well, "God helps those who help themselves" comes from Ben Franklin, not the Bible ... so no big surprise that churches don't embrace that philosophy.   

Good rule of thumb when choosing a church: If your church is part of a larger organization with a proven track record of public service to go with their spiritual services, they are probably okay. If your church is a single entity run by the same pastor for decades and has no proven record of services, it's probably a scam.

Yes, when choosing a church, it's perfectly fine to inquire about the things they do for the community.  Frankly, I'm amazed at how much our church manages to do for the community. 

Giving 10% to a church is not the same thing as giving 10% to a charity. A tiny fraction of almost any church's budget goes to tangibly helping people outside the organization. Most is spent on salaries, facilities, equipment, insurance, utilities, and service delivery. Ask your church accountant. Some churches spend huge sums of donated money on marketing too.

This varies widely from church to church, and you as a member (or potential member) should be allowed to see just where the money is going.