Tired of managing - becoming a late bloom coder instead?

[Rowing Investor]

I am looking for non-financial advice/opinion: While money is good I am getting tired of being a manager. I have been in the IT industry for 20 years, advancing from being a coder to different management positions.

While I am not yet at FIRE level, I feel I need a career change. So, let’s assume I dream of becoming more of a doer (I.e. no people, budget responsibility) again at the age of 50 (a few years away):

A) Any general recommendations? (Impossible due to age?)

B) Becoming a “coder”/programmer, any advice on language(s) and way of learning while keeping up a rather busy management job spin the meantime?

[powderedtoastman]

Hello, the easiest programming language for beginners is Python.

The reason why is once you leave Python all the other languages will force you to use ";" and other complex things which will take a long time to comprehend for some. Namely, in JavaScript there is a concept of Promises which requires you to actually understand how the event loop works which is not an easy thing to know!

In Java, you're constantly working with the virtualization and must learn that or your code will fail. So, python, being easy to use is best.

You can write simple scripts that can be set to Windows Task Scheduler and that will make painful manual tasks a breeze while you can then sit back and just watch (or study!).

Jeffrey Nadrich

[MilesTeg]

I am looking for non-financial advice/opinion: While money is good I am getting tired of being a manager. I have been in the IT industry for 20 years, advancing from being a coder to different management positions.

While I am not yet at FIRE level, I feel I need a career change. So, let’s assume I dream of becoming more of a doer (I.e. no people, budget responsibility) again at the age of 50 (a few years away):

A) Any general recommendations? (Impossible due to age?)

B) Becoming a “coder”/programmer, any advice on language(s) and way of learning while keeping up a rather busy management job spin the meantime?

I've brought on a few programmers fleeing managerial/leadership positions. Most having previously been developers who got promoted and hated it.

In my experience, all technical aside, a lot of people really have trouble stepping back down to not being "in charge". Make sure before you make this jump you can handle taking direction from others in ways that you are used to currently giving direction. You won't last long if you say "I don't want to manage people" but then challenge the authority of whoever is now managing you. This doesn't mean don't give input based on your experience, but it does mean accept that your input may not be taken.

[AccidentialMustache]

Hello, the easiest programming language for beginners is Python.

The reason why is once you leave Python all the other languages will force you to use ";" and other complex things which will take a long time to comprehend for some. Namely, in JavaScript there is a concept of Promises which requires you to actually understand how the event loop works which is not an easy thing to know!

In Java, you're constantly working with the virtualization and must learn that or your code will fail. So, python, being easy to use is best.

You can write simple scripts that can be set to Windows Task Scheduler and that will make painful manual tasks a breeze while you can then sit back and just watch (or study!).

For the OP I would take this with a *very* large grain of salt. Honestly it smells like a spam bot trying to establish credibility.

Python has promises, they're somewhere between an asyncio.Future and an asyncio.Task. Both languages have essentially identical async/await syntax.

The JVM is, in many ways, not really that different than the VM that lives inside python and executes your bytecode. Python just hides the compile step inside the interpreter, along with the VM itself.


In response to the OP directly:

Nothing's not possible, but age discrimination is known to be a thing in the industry. My own observation suggests age isn't a big deal in the midwest tech scene -- Chicago or otherwise -- for whatever that's worth. Lots of grey beards around.

In terms of what to learn, Python isn't a bad choice, but to be honest -- what did you used to write code in? The easiest thing to re-learn is going to be what you already knew, if its still a relevant choice and the language hasn't "moved on" too much. Other options that may be worth considering -- automation/cloud type stuff. Terraform/aws, chef, salt, ansible, etc. If you have a head for operations, the devops area is pretty hot right now. Some programming background is helpful but not as deeply-CS-y as normal software development.

[PDXTabs]

A) Any general recommendations? (Impossible due to age?)

I've seen it done before, but you might have a hard time finding someone to take you on as a W2 employee. Depending on your goals in life that's not necessarily a problem.

B) Becoming a “coder”/programmer, any advice on language(s) and way of learning while keeping up a rather busy management job spin the meantime?

What language did you start in? There's a chance that it is still in demand, especially in a consulting role.

Take everything I say with a big pinch of salt, I've worked with coders turned managers turned coders, but I've never done it myself.

[RedmondStash]

So you're a former coder, looking to update your skills so you can get out of management? I'm a tech writer, not a programmer, but I did leave management to go back to individual contributing, and I am so glad I did. Just a much better fit for me. I enjoy the work better. I was a good manager, but not a happy one.

I work with a lot of programmers. C++ seems to be the backbone of everything, at least in the games industry. VB is still big too, I think. For scripting, I hear people talk about C#, JavaScript, Python, and maybe Lua. I can tell you that TypeScript makes my friends twitchy and mad.

My advice would be to scour a bunch of job descriptions for jobs you might want for the programming languages mentioned most frequently, and then study up on them. Or maybe talk to programmer friends about what the new hotness is. It might be industry-dependent.

And no, it is not impossible due to age. I know a lot of people who make big career changes in their 40s and 50s, even in IT. The road might be steeper, but then, it might not. Just depends on the hiring team's biases. Who knows? Maybe the age thing will give you an advantage. You never know.

[EngagedToFIRE]

Is it possible you may be happier making lifestyle changes (if possible) that would increase your FIRE date instead of starting over as a coder?  Only 10 years away from SS.  Not sure about your finances, but I would think if you are in the FIRE community, by age 50, you must not be THAT far away, right?

[thesis]

If you're in your late 40s, age discrimination may be a real thing. For whatever reason, only the young guys are expected to be coders, it's an annoying bias. That being said, I've known several guys in the 45-55 window who were still coders. They basically just buckled down and refused to move into management. I had a friend who worked for a company where one older guy threatened to quit if they promoted him. (also, not trying to be insulting by boxing you into the 'older guy' range :-) )

I think often what happens is that people who want to stick with coding forever often move in consulting, but if you're moving back into coding, it's a little different story. Honestly, I think most employers are just afraid that the older programmers are going to be stuck in their ways, think they know everything, and not listen to direction. Someone in my company may or may not have recently been fired for this. So, maybe just make it clear that you're not going to be that kind of person, update your skills a bit, and see where things go. Surely some company out there will hire you for that. Besides, unemployment is super low right now, so it's a great time to make a career jump.

[effigy98]

Go for more of an architecture role, where you lead the project as a non manager technical role, but you still do a good chunk of coding. This seems to allow people who step down from management to save face and still earn that huge paycheck while flexing those management skills at a different scope. I notice there is a huge lack of leadership from the individual level, and it is probably due to our school systems pumping out good coding slaves and not leaders.

[Rowing Investor]

Dear all,

happy new year! Thank you very much for the constructive comments, much appreciated. Apologies for not responding earlier.

Go for more of an architecture role, where you lead the project as a non manager technical role, but you still do a good chunk of coding. This seems to allow people who step down from management to save face and still earn that huge paycheck while flexing those management skills at a different scope. I notice there is a huge lack of leadership from the individual level, and it is probably due to our school systems pumping out good coding slaves and not leaders.

Good advice and definitely something to think of. I do however think becoming an architect might be a bit harder than "going back to" programming, but worth considering, for sure.

If you're in your late 40s, age discrimination may be a real thing. For whatever reason, only the young guys are expected to be coders, it's an annoying bias. That being said, I've known several guys in the 45-55 window who were still coders. They basically just buckled down and refused to move into management. I had a friend who worked for a company where one older guy threatened to quit if they promoted him. (also, not trying to be insulting by boxing you into the 'older guy' range :-) )

I think often what happens is that people who want to stick with coding forever often move in consulting, but if you're moving back into coding, it's a little different story. Honestly, I think most employers are just afraid that the older programmers are going to be stuck in their ways, think they know everything, and not listen to direction. Someone in my company may or may not have recently been fired for this. So, maybe just make it clear that you're not going to be that kind of person, update your skills a bit, and see where things go. Surely some company out there will hire you for that. Besides, unemployment is super low right now, so it's a great time to make a career jump.

Yes, consulting/freelancing could definitely be an option, thank you.

Is it possible you may be happier making lifestyle changes (if possible) that would increase your FIRE date instead of starting over as a coder?  Only 10 years away from SS.  Not sure about your finances, but I would think if you are in the FIRE community, by age 50, you must not be THAT far away, right?

I am not located in US, so SS does not apply to me. I am also not yet 50, so quite many years still "to go" until normal pension. With regards to FI, well, on the way, but still another 13 years to go with current projections, but depends on how the markets will develop. While 2019 was really good, I do not expect us to see many years of such performance going forward, at least not in real terms, but that is a different discussion.

My advice would be to scour a bunch of job descriptions for jobs you might want for the programming languages mentioned most frequently, and then study up on them. Or maybe talk to programmer friends about what the new hotness is. It might be industry-dependent.

Thanks, good idea.

What language did you start in? There's a chance that it is still in demand, especially in a consulting role.

I did some C++ and Java, but this was quite some time ago and I would need to relearn. However, I do believe I know at least the principles and would be fairly quick in relearning once I got my mind into it.

Hello, the easiest programming language for beginners is Python.

The reason why is once you leave Python all the other languages will force you to use ";" and other complex things which will take a long time to comprehend for some. Namely, in JavaScript there is a concept of Promises which requires you to actually understand how the event loop works which is not an easy thing to know!

In Java, you're constantly working with the virtualization and must learn that or your code will fail. So, python, being easy to use is best.

You can write simple scripts that can be set to Windows Task Scheduler and that will make painful manual tasks a breeze while you can then sit back and just watch (or study!).

For the OP I would take this with a *very* large grain of salt. Honestly it smells like a spam bot tryi

Yes, I also reacted in similar way regarding the Python recommendation. However, might not be bad for me to use as a first step in getting back into "programming".

All in all, I am actually quite happy at work in last few months. My company however announced a reorganization just before Christmas, so let's see how that will play out.

Again, I appreciate the responses and now have some good and practical advice to follow or take into consideration.

All the best for the 2020's!

[2sk22]

I have been a programmer most of my career (now going on thirty years) except for four years when I managed a team of 20 developers. It mostly worked in my favor but my experience may not be entirely relevant since I have a PhD in a marketable field (i.e. machine learning).

Even for me, however, it became a struggle to shirk management responsibilities in the past few years. My feeling is that beyond age 50, unless you have special circumstances like mine, its not easy to stay employed in software without taking on some management duties. I'm glad I had a good run but also really happy to be retiring this year!

[scottish]

I have been a programmer most of my career (now going on thirty years) except for four years when I managed a team of 20 developers. It mostly worked in my favor but my experience may not be entirely relevant since I have a PhD in a marketable field (i.e. machine learning).

Even for me, however, it became a struggle to shirk management responsibilities in the past few years. My feeling is that beyond age 50, unless you have special circumstances like mine, its not easy to stay employed in software without taking on some management duties. I'm glad I had a good run but also really happy to be retiring this year!

That's interesting - did you do your PhD back during the first AI craze in the late 80's, or was it a more recent achievement?   (at least it was the first AI craze I encountered!    Maybe Minsky started the one even earlier.)

Sometimes I think about going back to school for a PhD, but I often work with professors and graduate students, and it doesn't seem all that appealing.    I think school is more fun when you're young and unattached.

[AccidentialMustache]

For the OP I would take this with a *very* large grain of salt. Honestly it smells like a spam bot tryi

Yes, I also reacted in similar way regarding the Python recommendation. However, might not be bad for me to use as a first step in getting back into "programming".

To be clear I've been writing Python for the last 4 years, full time, by choice, and I was doing it on-and-off for a couple years before that. Python isn't a bad choice -- and depending what you want to do (data science/machine learning? rapid prototyping/development? super approachable so non-experts can do it?) its an excellent language.

Python wasn't an "allowed" language where I was back then but it was useful for prototypes and discussion as "runable pseudocode"... and 10% faster than the Java version we spent hours and hours optimizing so it never had to run the stupid garbage collector (which made it more than 10% slower in very bad ways because it tended to trigger a thundering herd issue). But python wasn't blessed by the architects; so we couldn't have nice things.

C++ and Java have both changed a lot in the last 5 years, and modern versions of both may be almost unrecognizable vs 10 or 20 year old code. That may be nearly like learning a new language anyway for you. Its worth checking in on them but if you're left with "uhh wat?" then consider a wider set of options before you pick one. Python should certainly be in the set of consideration there. Something else always in demand around here is mobile engineers, which actually doesn't fit too badly with older C++/Java experience most likely.

[2sk22]

That's interesting - did you do your PhD back during the first AI craze in the late 80's, or was it a more recent achievement?   (at least it was the first AI craze I encountered!    Maybe Minsky started the one even earlier.)

Sometimes I think about going back to school for a PhD, but I often work with professors and graduate students, and it doesn't seem all that appealing.    I think school is more fun when you're young and unattached.

Surprisingly it was about neural networks, not logic based AI. My PhD dissertation, which I completed in 1992, was about improving the rate of convergence of backpropgation for training neural networks used in classification. Some things never change :-)

The famous Rumelhart/McLelland/Hinton paper about backpropagation had been published in the late 80s and there was an initial wave of excitement about neural networks which I was lucky to catch. I had to build all of my neural network code from scratch in C - several decades before TensorFlow and PyTorch.

In my opinion, it has become harder than ever to pursue a PhD in computer science, particularly in hot fields like machine learning. It has become very difficult to come up with original ideas that are worthy of publication. I'm just thankful that the whole field was a sleepy backwater in the early 90s - I don't think I would have lasted in the current environment.