Thoughts? Replacing all the windows versus paying more for heat

[Silverwood]

My house was built in 1945 and I think the windows are all original.They were good quality windows but they are old and a couple have frost and ice on them. I  know this winter has been freezing. Its -30C and there is an extreme weather warning with it going down to -42 tonight. That's without wind.  I moved into the house in Oct so this is my first winter.  While I would like to make it as efficient as possible my dad said told me not to bother. His point was its cheaper to spend a couple hundred more paying for heat in the winter than 15000 on windows. 

He also said this about insulating the garage. He said it wouldn't make a difference if its not heated.

 
While I can and will do most things myself, installing windows would have to be done professionally. I just don't know enough and have no one to help.

Does anyone agree with this? I didn't have a counterargument.

[ASquared]

Did you obtain a professional quote?  15k seems like a lot but maybe not? Or maybe you have a very large house?

[dbanta]

We just had a home energy audit done and the auditor said that replacing windows rarely improves the insulation of the house significantly and it takes a lifetime to come out even (cost of windows v. energy savings).  It's usually the last recommendation he makes.  Even though old windows have a low R value, the newer windows don't improve the R value that much.  He suggested just buying some good blinds as coverings for the older windows.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/replacing-windows-save-energy-costs-79671.html
http://www.care2.com/greenliving/for-energy-efficiency-replace-your-windows-last.html

Alternatively, the auditor suggested air sealing the house (make sure that warm air isn't leaking out around the windows, fireplace, and the attic) and improving insulation.  He said that these changes are usually the most cost effective improvement.

Our audit was subsidized by our local utility.  It might be worth looking into to see if you can have an audit done and then know what improvements would help the most.

[Another Reader]

Agree on the windows.  Sealing the leaks around the windows usually reduces the airflow sufficiently to make a difference.  Sealing the air leaks around penetrations into your attic space and making sure you have sufficient attic insulation are cheap ways of attacking the problem as well.  There are old threads in this forum on inner storm windows and window quilts that might be of help.  I would not replace windows unless they were rotted and/or allowing a lot of moisture to get into the framing.

[Cromacster]

Yea, like others have said, before you go about replacing windows check/update the insulation in the attic.  Air seal everywhere you can, ie attic, windows, doors, basement, and garage.  Attic insulation along with airsealing will give you most bang for your buck.  Even just air sealing alone you will notice a significant improvement.

[Spudd]

I know this wasn't your question, but I definitely agree with your dad about the garage. Why would you want to insulate your garage? You're not heating it.

[seattlecyclone]

Yep, replacing the windows has a pretty low ROI as far as energy efficiency is concerned. Make sure the walls and attic have good insulation first. If the windows are drafty, that plastic sheeting you can put over the windows during the winter helps quite a bit.

[Jamesqf]

Whether replacing windows helps depends a lot on your windows, and how windy your area gets.  If for instance they're old aluminium-framed ones (as mine were) you might as well leave them open.

Replacing is not that hard (at least mine weren't), and $15K seems really steep.  In the meantime, add clear window film to block air infiltration & convective heat loss, consider using foam board to block some of them, etc.

For the garage, is it attached?  If so, insulation will help.  Heat leaks through the dividing wall (which probably isn't well insulated, and thence to the outdoors.

[HokieInPa]

$15000 seems very high. We did our whole house this summer for $8800. It was roughly $200 per window and another $200 per window for installation (including removal of old one and disposal). I'm sure this probably varies some by location, but your quote is nearly double or you have a crap load of windows

[Longwaytogo]

To know whether 15K is high or not we would need some more info-

1.How many windows?
2. What type of windows do you want ? - vinyl, wood, wood/aluminum clad etc.
3. what is your exterior? brick/siding etc.
4. will you be redoing interior window trim?, if not then you'll be getting a "replacement" window which means a window inserted into your existing frame and caulked inside and outside with out disturbing siding or interior trim/drywall

I have done/contracted 30K window jobs that were not unreasonable, but have done plenty of the 8800 type above poster mentions also

Just because windows are not your best ROI does not mean they may not be worth doing, just need to consider-

1.How long will you be in house?
2. Are windows operable or painted/rusted shut ? If not makes it hard to open in sholuder seasons or summer nights (also super dangerous in a fire)
3.do you feel cold air/drafts from them making you uncomfortable

Sure insulation is your best/quickest bang for your buck but windows may be worth doing at some point

As for garage, insulating it could help a little depending on how many walls it shares with house but your actual house is probably under or not insulated as others have mentioned (my house built in 1932 had no insulation at all in walls when I remodeled in 2005 and only poorly installed r-19 in attic)

[badger1988]

The house we bought in 2012 was relatively old (1935) and had all the original windows. Even with the mild winter we had last year, it was very cold and drafty upstairs, and we couldn't tolerate sleeping in the bedroom up there. This fall, I replaced all (8) of the upstairs windows myself with the replacement style windows. Even though I had no prior experience, it was super easy and I was able to complete the job over a 3 day weekend at a cost of $1800. The difference is night and day. What used to be intolerable is now comfortable even in this recent cold snap. I'm definitely going to go ahead and do all the windows on the main floor this year.

One other thing to consider with ROI on top of energy savings is the value new windows will add to your house should you decide to sell it. I know when I was house hunting, I would have been willing to pay significantly more for the same house with new windows already installed.

In short, with limited information, I say go for it. As far as the garage, I would only insulate a wall that is shared with the heated living space. Insulation of an unheated space won't do anything for you absolute temperature wise...it will only slow the rate at which temperatures change.

[jpdcpajd]

I  have been considering replacing mine.

Building built in 1892 not sure if windows original but definitely single pane drafty windows. The windows I am considering replacing are on the front facing the street in a historic neighborhood.  So they must be wood with curved tops and they are expensive. cost of the windows alone are 1250-1500. So I was thinking not worth the cost especially in a 1100 sq ft condo that won't bring much over 130k on resale.  But there is the fact that they do not open and I run the air almost non-stop in the st Louis summer, since they are all on the south side and I get no cross venting.

 I may try just the one on the first floor for my own comfort as I plan to stay probably minimum 5yrs if not 10.

[oldtoyota]

This thread made me google "airsealing windows," and I found the energy.gov website. Useful info here:

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/air-sealing-your-home

[Silverwood]

Thanks everyone! 

The walls are plaster and the outside ones are cold.  The outside is siding.  Im not sure how well its insulated there.  Obviously not enough but the siding is still in good condition so ill start with the attic and air sealing.

There are two bedrooms and they both have two windows. Only one window in each room actually opens. There is some moisture problems because I can see the paint has chipped and cracked and the frames will need to be replaced. There are two windows in the kitchen. Again only one opens. A huge window (3 together) in the living room. The bottom has smaller windows that open. I think they are aluminum as they are metal. The basement has 4 smaller windows but I dont think they are to code. The bathroom has one window that opens into a 3 season sunroom.  Of them all its in the best condition.

The $15000 was just from my dad. I plan on getting estimates this spring. We used to get money back after doing an energy audit but that stopped a couple years ago. I will get money back for the attic insulation.

Good point about resale. Im here for the next 10 years.

Yeah not insulating the garage made sense.Its not attatched to the house. I just remember mmm's blog post about insulating his garage door. Also thought it might help with the garage door opener. It stops working when its this cold

[GodlessCommie]

It is hard to get a good ROI replacing relatively modern, double-pane windows. Replacing single-pane windows is very likely to get a good ROI. Aluminum makes it more likely that you will get a good return, it doesn't insulate at all (at least the way old windows are built).

I can understand the reluctance to DIY it, but
a) it is not that hard
b) professionals don't necessarily do a good job

One way to save is to use new construction instead of a replacement window. They come in pre-defined sizes, which may not fit your opening perfectly. That's fine, you can build up the inside of a rough opening, and will end up with a window that is a little smaller. In addition to being cheaper, they seal much better against the exterior. It is important for two reasons: less chance of water infiltration (which can ruin your wall), and less heat loss.

When taking measurements, make sure to check if rough opening is square - I had a very close call because I didn't check for it.

When looking for contractors, references unfortunately don't matter much. Most people can only assess appearance, and contractors are pretty good at making things pretty. Quality of sealing and insulation is invisible and largely ignored. This circles back to replacement vs new construction windows - it is harder to screw up with a new construction type.

The fact that not all your windows open will help you save a lot on both replacement cost and heating/cooling costs. Fixed windows are much cheaper and airseal like crazy.

If you decide to DIY, I would start with a smaller fixed window on the ground level, on the back or side of the house, on the ground level or facing the deck, where you can work without a ladder. It will let you access if this is the kind of work you can take on, and if it is, practice and gain experience. Worst case you will hire someone to finish what you started. Little risk, potentially huge savings. Invite friends and family, they may be interested in getting experience - mine were.

[GoCubsGo]

I live in a 1920's house and was confronted with the same issue.  I did a half and half solution.  The bedrooms windows upstairs were so drafty my hair would move when walking past on a windy day.  I had 8 windows upstairs replaced ($6K) and it definitely helped.  Last year I tackled the downstairs windows.  I had many large, custom sized windows that looked really cool and I didn't want to replace (they would have been about $1K EACH).  I got a quote on interior storm windows which were MUCH more economical.  The more I researched the more I realized I could build them myself.  I built 4 inner storms and they instantly made a huge difference.  I wish I would have gone that route upstairs.  They basically create an air seal and an inner air space that substantially improves the comfort.  I couldn't sit on a couch in front of the old windows on a cold day and now I sit there all the time.  I think the total cost to build them was around $200.

[mollyjade]

One other thing to consider with ROI on top of energy savings is the value new windows will add to your house should you decide to sell it. I know when I was house hunting, I would have been willing to pay significantly more for the same house with new windows already installed.

This was one of the things that made us decide to replace our 1950s windows. New windows (along with updated plumbing and electrical), are one of the signs that a house has been "updated" in our neighborhood. It makes it much easier to sell and get a better price. If you have a realtor friend you might consult him about this.

You should also look into whether you can get any state or federal rebates for replacing them, though this often requires you to use an authorized company, so DIY might still be cheaper in the end.

Another consideration for us was that many of our windows were painted shut or difficult to open, which we considered a safety issue.

With state, federal, and city rebates, we were able to get all our windows replaced, doors sealed, attic insulation added, and a few other minor things improved for about $6,000 for a 1100 sq ft home.

[hybrid]

Our windows were original with the house (1962) and we replaced 12 of them for 7K three years ago (not ourselves, we had them installed) and are happy with the results.  It will take a long, long time to recoup 7K though.  Having said that, it clearly added value to the home so some of that 7K comes back should we ever move (unlikely in the near future, but you never know).

If I were to go back and do it again I might try to do part of it myself with the following caveats.

I would do it in pleasant weather in case it took longer than expected (as it usually does).
I would do just one window at first.
I would pick the least important of the windows to replace.
I would save the most difficult windows for last, wanting to use practice on the "standard" ones first.

I live in a ranch, that also would affect my decision to try this myself.  In my old two story home?  No, I doubt I would have taken on the upstairs windows.  Maybe, but doubtful.

[Jamesqf]

The windows I am considering replacing are on the front facing the street in a historic neighborhood.  So they must be wood with curved tops and they are expensive.

Your best option here?  MOVE. 

[Longwaytogo]

Another DIY option is to see if you know anyone who can help you for a day to show you on the first few and then do the rest yourself. You could trade helping them a day on something you can do (like digging fence holes, painting etc.) I o this my friends all the time and it works out good.  One nice benefit is if someone is coming to help you from 9-4 Saturday then you will work 9-4 Saturday. As opposed to the normal leisurely breakfast with wife, play with kids, maybe I'll start after lunch etc. Sometimes if I have a project day planned with a helper my wife will even take kids to her parents or zoo or something so we can crank up radio and get some work done.

Or if you live someplace cool you could try some of MMM's carpentourism!

[MikeCollins]

Those plastic coverings you put over the window using double-sided tape and a hair dryer worked really well in our old house.  The windows were very old and hadn't been maintained well so they were very drafty.  The plastic kept the drafts out and the house was noticeably warmer.  If you have pets or curious young children be prepared to find some holes punched in them. 

[stealmystapler]

I'll definitely echo what others are saying. The return on investment for windows really isn't that great, and - depending on the payoff projection in your specific case - often won't pay themselves off in energy savings before the warranty ends.

To improve comfort, I think your best bet is to repair, seal, and weatherstrip your windows. I've seen studies that show a repaired window plus a storm has an equivalent R value to a new, double pane window. I've repaired a number of wood windows, and it really isn't that difficult - it just takes time. And painted-shut windows? You just need a box knife or "window zipper" and you'll get it opening easily.

Windows will never be very efficient, so if you're looking to improve energy savings it's better to go for other things - insulation, air sealing, or even updating to a more efficient or properly sized mechanical system.

[Wanderer]

Do you have kids or pets?  Windows in 1945 houses are often covered with lead-based paint, and replacing them improperly could bring a lot of lead dust into the house.  According to EPA rules, contractors hired to work on houses built before 1978 are supposed to be EPA Renovation, Repair, and Painting Program certified, but almost no contractors obey this rule.  A lot of kids are lead poisoned by unsafe renovations in their homes.  Pets have similar risk factors for lead poisoning--smaller body mass, putting everything in their mouths, licking their paws, etc.  Besides the physical dangers of lead poisoning, in many states if a child is lead poisoned the state will step in and require more extensive lead removal in the residence that could end up being extremely expensive.  I'd at least hire a RRP certified contractor who can check for lead paint, contain the dust while doing the window replacement, and clean up thoroughly afterwards--especially if you have young children. 

Lead-based paint introduces more potential costs that need to be considered, with a potential down side to both replacing the windows (potentially higher cost) and keeping them (old wooden windows with deteriorating lead-based paint are a major source of lead poisoning in children).