Thoughts on how to maintain the “stealth” part of stealth wealth

[frugalecon]

In today’s WSJ there was an article about people who have retired primarily with real estate investments. While interesting to see their stories, what surprised me was how much detail the people in the stories revealed. (The WSJ also published some other stories over the last year or so, about what retirement is like with $1 million in assets, $2 million, $5 million etc.)

It strikes me as crazy to reveal so much about one’s personal situation in a national newspaper. It just seems like it could make you a target for people you would rather not target you. But someone could figure out some facts about me just with a Google search.

So what steps do you take to make it hard to figure out your overall wealth? I don’t reveal much to family or friends, and I limit conspicuous consumption, like fancy cars, but I wonder if I should be doing something else.

[Bartlebooth]

Wealth is stealth by default.  A large account balance in cash or publicly traded instruments is among the least-public things in the world.

It is only through taking actions (buying things, saying things) that you would reveal your wealth.

[Ron Scott]

There’s a “wealth” of data out there that can be used to estimate how wealthy you are and much of it is publically available, like the value of your real estate, the cars you drive, etc. Then there’s your credit score (which, combined with your known asset values, is a predictor or wealth), your online browsing behavior, your social media activities, your purchasing history—all of which can be combined with basic demographic information about you.

Who’s fooling who???

[TimCFJ40]

The ways in which average people perceive wealth are so basic, those are the first things to delete to remain stealth and lose nothing in quality of life.

Fancy cars, flashy jewelry, name branded clothes all are very easy to avoid. 

Next would be where you choose to live, a reasonable home in a middle or even upper middle class neighborhood doesn't immediately stand out as wealthy. 

After that, as long as you aren't running around proclaiming your wealth, it's unlikely you'd get pointed out as wealthy.  There's so many people that aren't rich trying to look rich that it's easy to go unnoticed.

As for us, we live in a very average home, drive fairly average cars, wear clothes from the thrift store, and don't talk about wealth with people we're not VERY close with.  In social situations when money and wealth comes up with strangers or acquaintances outside of our very close friends, we usually play pretty low key. 

We're not all THAT rich, but by many people's standards we're in the rich category, say in the top 2-5% of overall net worth. 

[Telecaster]

Morgan Housel says that flashy cars and such are actually demonstrations of wealth you don't have.   

[wageslave23]

Are you worried about a kidnapping/ransom scheme? That's about the only "targeting" I think that could increase if someone knows your wealth. Generally this happens to tourists in foreign countries, so dont look like a wealthy tourist when traveling internationally.  Otherwise people hack accounts and that is based on the account not on how flashy the person is. 

[roomtempmayo]

I've always thought it was bizarre that people would reveal their financial situation in the media, especially when it's so often a disaster.  Shame is endangered.

When it comes to "stealth wealth," we're actively trying to report a lower income, as I think many here are for various reasons, especially income tax.  The financial irony is that often the wealthier you are (paid off house, cars, solar panels, etcetera), the less income you really need to report since you don't need to use income to ptyay for the things you already own.  Perhaps that's blindingly obvious to people here, but it took me a bit to realize that if you hold your lifestyle constant, income and wealth will often have an inverse relationship over time.

[Tasse]

Next would be where you choose to live, a reasonable home in a middle or even upper middle class neighborhood doesn't immediately stand out as wealthy.

Depends who you are comparing to. Buying a house at all will still mark us as wealthy compared to most of my DH's family.

The "targeting" I'm concerned about is being asked for money. We've built up good boundaries here (over time, and with pain), but I think there would be resentment if they knew how much we actually have.

On my side of the family, there are relatives who would never ask us for money but are always gossiping about how much so-and-so has. I don't want them to know our numbers either.

[wageslave23]

Next would be where you choose to live, a reasonable home in a middle or even upper middle class neighborhood doesn't immediately stand out as wealthy.

Depends who you are comparing to. Buying a house at all will still mark us as wealthy compared to most of my DH's family.

The "targeting" I'm concerned about is being asked for money. We've built up good boundaries here (over time, and with pain), but I think there would be resentment if they knew how much we actually have.

On my side of the family, there are relatives who would never ask us for money but are always gossiping about how much so-and-so has. I don't want them to know our numbers either.

That makes more sense.  I don't share my networth with my
 family either, not that they would ask for money, but I think they would give me a hard time everytime I turned down going on an expensive vacation or eating at expensive restaurants.  Mostly, I think they know that I feel like everyone is responsible for their own finances.  If they want advice, I give it freely which if followed is worth more than any money I would give them.  Otherwise, just don't flaunt your wealth.  I wear their hand me down clothes even though I'm worth 10x their networth. I always suggest making food instead of going to an expensive restaurant,  I drive a brown, scratched and dented hyundai, my wedding ring was $30 on Amazon and I tell everyone that.  I complain that my water bill went up $20 a month, I tell them we don't have cable because we can't afford it.  Basically I am my own brutally honest self, I just don't share the number in my brokerage account and that's the only thing separating me from the rest of the lower middle class.  If someone asked me for money, I'd first give them a list of lifestyle changes to make, which they never would, and it would be the end of the discussion.

[2sk22]

Morgan Housel says that flashy cars and such are actually demonstrations of wealth you don't have.

He has so many interesting things to say on the subject on his blog and his podcast. This recent article was really good: https://collabfund.com/blog/a-few-thoughts-on-spending-money/

[mistymoney]

I'm only honest with my children. Everyone else I am cagey to downright deceitful.

my experience is that nothing good comes of sharing numbers with family and friends. Resentments, requests for loans or just gifts of money, etc.

I used to be very open, but found people have all sorts of strange emotions tied into money - ego, guilt, envy, etc.

[Tasse]

That makes more sense.  I don't share my networth with my
 family either, not that they would ask for money, but I think they would give me a hard time everytime I turned down going on an expensive vacation or eating at expensive restaurants.  Mostly, I think they know that I feel like everyone is responsible for their own finances.  If they want advice, I give it freely which if followed is worth more than any money I would give them.  Otherwise, just don't flaunt your wealth.  I wear their hand me down clothes even though I'm worth 10x their networth. I always suggest making food instead of going to an expensive restaurant,  I drive a brown, scratched and dented hyundai, my wedding ring was $30 on Amazon and I tell everyone that.  I complain that my water bill went up $20 a month, I tell them we don't have cable because we can't afford it.  Basically I am my own brutally honest self, I just don't share the number in my brokerage account and that's the only thing separating me from the rest of the lower middle class.  If someone asked me for money, I'd first give them a list of lifestyle changes to make, which they never would, and it would be the end of the discussion.

I agree with most of this, but I've tried to train myself specifically not to say "I can't afford x." I can afford a lot of things I choose not to buy. I say "That's not in the budget" or "That doesn't fit with our goals" or "That's not worth the money to us." It would be an insult to the aforementioned struggling relatives, who know we work white-collar jobs, to claim not to be able to afford something that is genuinely out of reach for them.

For me it's important to remember that I'm making choices with my spending, affirming the ones I'm happy with and changing the ones I'm not. And when we eventually have kids, I want them to get the message that we choose not to have x, and that choice is worth it to us--not that it is out of reach due to genuine scarcity.

@mistymoney, I'm curious how far the honesty with your children extends (and how old they are)? My parents were very open about their philosophy around money, the choices and tradeoffs they were making, etc. I'm also the executor of their will and have discussed their wishes for their estate with them. But to this day they have never used hard numbers.

[mistymoney]

That makes more sense.  I don't share my networth with my
 family either, not that they would ask for money, but I think they would give me a hard time everytime I turned down going on an expensive vacation or eating at expensive restaurants.  Mostly, I think they know that I feel like everyone is responsible for their own finances.  If they want advice, I give it freely which if followed is worth more than any money I would give them.  Otherwise, just don't flaunt your wealth.  I wear their hand me down clothes even though I'm worth 10x their networth. I always suggest making food instead of going to an expensive restaurant,  I drive a brown, scratched and dented hyundai, my wedding ring was $30 on Amazon and I tell everyone that.  I complain that my water bill went up $20 a month, I tell them we don't have cable because we can't afford it.  Basically I am my own brutally honest self, I just don't share the number in my brokerage account and that's the only thing separating me from the rest of the lower middle class.  If someone asked me for money, I'd first give them a list of lifestyle changes to make, which they never would, and it would be the end of the discussion.

I agree with most of this, but I've tried to train myself specifically not to say "I can't afford x." I can afford a lot of things I choose not to buy. I say "That's not in the budget" or "That doesn't fit with our goals" or "That's not worth the money to us." It would be an insult to the aforementioned struggling relatives, who know we work white-collar jobs, to claim not to be able to afford something that is genuinely out of reach for them.

For me it's important to remember that I'm making choices with my spending, affirming the ones I'm happy with and changing the ones I'm not. And when we eventually have kids, I want them to get the message that we choose not to have x, and that choice is worth it to us--not that it is out of reach due to genuine scarcity.

@mistymoney, I'm curious how far the honesty with your children extends (and how old they are)? My parents were very open about their philosophy around money, the choices and tradeoffs they were making, etc. I'm also the executor of their will and have discussed their wishes for their estate with them. But to this day they have never used hard numbers.

my children are mid-late 20's. I;ve shared net worth milestones, bonus amount, salary offers and negotiation, etc. 

[twinstudy]

Part of the point of having money is that it frees you to do or not do as you like. I don't generally talk about money, or post things on social media, but neither will I deceive others. I have expensive tastes in some things like real estate, watches, and cars, and I'm not going to apologise to anyone for it nor do I ever need to justify my choices to anyone. At the same time, I'd never allow a paper to profile me. Neutrality is good enough. Neither brag nor sandbag.

Everyone in my family is doing fine so I don't have any reason to sandbag to them; the same applies to my friends group. Anyone who can't handle it can bugger off.

The only person I would actively hide wealth from is the government, and I do that by splitting jurisdictions - for example, between my spouse and me, we own properties singly instead of jointly, and take care to buy them in different states, so as to spread the land tax burden and avoid paying higher rates of land tax (which here is strongly progressive, but only intra-state).

[TimCFJ40]

Next would be where you choose to live, a reasonable home in a middle or even upper middle class neighborhood doesn't immediately stand out as wealthy.

Depends who you are comparing to. Buying a house at all will still mark us as wealthy compared to most of my DH's family.

The "targeting" I'm concerned about is being asked for money. We've built up good boundaries here (over time, and with pain), but I think there would be resentment if they knew how much we actually have.

On my side of the family, there are relatives who would never ask us for money but are always gossiping about how much so-and-so has. I don't want them to know our numbers either.

The context of hiding from family vs the general public is a bit different. 

You won't ever win with that type of family other than through boundaries.  Dropping or hiding your lifestyle to be at or below the lowest common denominator won't satisfy them. 

Fortunately, we're free of this kind of issue with direct family, but in both my family and my wife's, there are issues like this in our parents' generations.  Fortunately thus far, the issues are a step removed and the ones who would target us haven't noticed that the younger generations might have money too...

[Tasse]

The context of hiding from family vs the general public is a bit different. 

You won't ever win with that type of family other than through boundaries.  Dropping or hiding your lifestyle to be at or below the lowest common denominator won't satisfy them. 

I didn't say we were hiding anything. It's clear to everyone in DH's family that we are the wealthiest among them, and that we will help in some small ways but not big ones (pitch in $100 for your dog's vet bill yes; cosign your mortgage no).

I'm just sharing the context of my own life, and why I don't go around sharing our NW.

[aloevera1]

I don't talk numbers with anyone. Actually, this even includes this semi-anonymous forum. I plan to keep it this way pretty much indefinitely.

Stealth really comes from the way you are living. Unless you flash your wealth, hire out tons of domestic help, brag about all the frequent luxurious trips you do people will assume you are just an average Joe. That's what I want. I am perfectly OK to be average, very easy to blend with the crowd of other average people.

[Turtle]

I don't talk numbers with anyone. Actually, this even includes this semi-anonymous forum. I plan to keep it this way pretty much indefinitely.

Stealth really comes from the way you are living. Unless you flash your wealth, hire out tons of domestic help, brag about all the frequent luxurious trips you do people will assume you are just an average Joe. That's what I want. I am perfectly OK to be average, very easy to blend with the crowd of other average people.

I don't talk numbers, but I do travel more frequently than a lot of people.  Most of it is visiting and staying with family, using Southwest points to get there.  Working from home means have laptop, can travel.  It's pretty darn frugal to stay on blow up air mattresses at my grown kid's places so it doesn't really impact the budget very much.  Folks may or may not make monetary assumptions out of that, but I don't particularly care if they do.

[aloevera1]

I don't talk numbers with anyone. Actually, this even includes this semi-anonymous forum. I plan to keep it this way pretty much indefinitely.

Stealth really comes from the way you are living. Unless you flash your wealth, hire out tons of domestic help, brag about all the frequent luxurious trips you do people will assume you are just an average Joe. That's what I want. I am perfectly OK to be average, very easy to blend with the crowd of other average people.

I don't talk numbers, but I do travel more frequently than a lot of people.  Most of it is visiting and staying with family, using Southwest points to get there.  Working from home means have laptop, can travel.  It's pretty darn frugal to stay on blow up air mattresses at my grown kid's places so it doesn't really impact the budget very much.  Folks may or may not make monetary assumptions out of that, but I don't particularly care if they do.

I think visiting family (people likely will assume you stay with them) is very different than going on cruises, flying across the ocean or going to fancy resorts. It may or may not be more frugal thing to do but there is just a perception of what constitutes an expensive vacation.

[spartana]

I think being stealthy is pretty easy. I live a modest lifestyle with few outward signs of wealth. I likely look lower middle class or working class to most people (jeeze I don't even own a car!). I don't talk about my finances to anyone except my FIREd sister (and current long term BF who's also FIRE). No one asks to borrow money and I'm not worried about being targeted by anyone... now.

But when I first quit my job at a fairly young age as a single woman and was actively dating, travelling solo, etc I did feel that if some men got a whiff of my finances that could be an issue. While I kept a pretty low financial profile with friends, family and especially with dates, there was lots of questions about why I was able to stop working so young, why I was able to pay off my house so young as a single person, where did my non-working income come from to support myself, etc. There were lots of weird assumptions about all that ( poor and on the Gov dole, looking for a sugar daddy, trust fund baby and everything inbetween). So I did occasionally feel "targeted" by some people (dates "Ethiopean Princes" lol not friends or family so much) who assumed I was rich.

[tj]

I think being stealthy is pretty easy. I live a modest lifestyle with few outward signs of wealth. I likely look lower middle class or working class to most people (jeeze I don't even own a car!). I don't talk about my finances to anyone except my FIREd sister (and current long term BF who's also FIRE). No one asks to borrow money and I'm not worried about being targeted by anyone... now.

But when I first quit my job at a fairly young age as a single woman and was actively dating, travelling solo, etc I did feel that if some men got a whiff of my finances that could be an issue. While I kept a pretty low financial profile with friends, family and especially with dates, there was lots of questions about why I was able to stop working so young, why I was able to pay off my house so young as a single person, where did my non-working income come from to support myself, etc. There were lots of weird assumptions about all that ( poor and on the Gov dole, looking for a sugar daddy, trust fund baby and everything inbetween). So I did occasionally feel "targeted" by some people (dates "Ethiopean Princes" lol not friends or family so much) who assumed I was rich.

You moved to a mountain town with no car?!? I'm impressed. What was the walk score of your place? :)

[mspym]

We manage it by FIRE-ing at a point where our stash generates the equivalent of minimum wage. We don’t look wealthy because we’re essentially not. I mean, we have a paid-off house (in a small rural town) but the lack of a mortgage isn’t visible and otherwise we like to live at the level of most people in our town. I could say we have more time but actually there’s a level of unemployment/ underemployment that we don’t stand out. It’s a pretty mustachian town.

[spartana]

I think being stealthy is pretty easy. I live a modest lifestyle with few outward signs of wealth. I likely look lower middle class or working class to most people (jeeze I don't even own a car!). I don't talk about my finances to anyone except my FIREd sister (and current long term BF who's also FIRE). No one asks to borrow money and I'm not worried about being targeted by anyone... now.

But when I first quit my job at a fairly young age as a single woman and was actively dating, travelling solo, etc I did feel that if some men got a whiff of my finances that could be an issue. While I kept a pretty low financial profile with friends, family and especially with dates, there was lots of questions about why I was able to stop working so young, why I was able to pay off my house so young as a single person, where did my non-working income come from to support myself, etc. There were lots of weird assumptions about all that ( poor and on the Gov dole, looking for a sugar daddy, trust fund baby and everything inbetween). So I did occasionally feel "targeted" by some people (dates "Ethiopean Princes" lol not friends or family so much) who assumed I was rich.

You moved to a mountain town with no car?!? I'm impressed. What was the walk score of your place? :)

If there's no where to walk to do you get a walkscore ;-). Actually it's pretty easy to get everywhere you need to within a short walk or bike ride and there's a bus that goes between all the other mountain towns and down "the hill". Still would get a vehicle if I were planning to live here long term for emergencies and to go longer distances but don't really need one here. I haven't had a car since Dec 2019 when I lived in coastal OC. Had an small older truck (a 2001 Ranger I bought in 2007) as my FIRE truck  most of my FIRE years. Good for stealth wealth! And helped to keep the sugarboybabies and ethiopean princes away from my money!

[GilesMM]

Most Americans are quite the opposite of stealth and go out of their way to announce their wealth (and then some) in the most vulgar possible way with flashy homes, cars, watches, shoes, handbags, etc.  It's all on social media constantly.

[RedmondStash]

Avoid ostentation.

[Freedomin5]

We don’t talk about how much money we have or we earn, and we talk a lot about being frugal — discounts and promotions that are ongoing, thrift store purchases, buying secondhand, car sharing, groceries that are on sale, etc. It seems to create the impression that we are not very well-off, and that we can barely afford the mortgage payments. If a family member does ask for money, DH likes to offer to do a full analysis of their finances with them to help them find the money in their current budget (for some reason, they never take him up on his generous offer), and I like to simply exclaim, “We don’t have extra money! It’s all going towards the mortgage! LOL!”

[iris lily]

Morgan Housel says that flashy cars and such are actually demonstrations of wealth you don't have.

big hat no cattle

[iris lily]

I think being stealthy is pretty easy. I live a modest lifestyle with few outward signs of wealth. I likely look lower middle class or working class to most people (jeeze I don't even own a car!). I don't talk about my finances to anyone except my FIREd sister (and current long term BF who's also FIRE). No one asks to borrow money and I'm not worried about being targeted by anyone... now.

But when I first quit my job at a fairly young age as a single woman and was actively dating, travelling solo, etc I did feel that if some men got a whiff of my finances that could be an issue. While I kept a pretty low financial profile with friends, family and especially with dates, there was lots of questions about why I was able to stop working so young, why I was able to pay off my house so young as a single person, where did my non-working income come from to support myself, etc. There were lots of weird assumptions about all that ( poor and on the Gov dole, looking for a sugar daddy, trust fund baby and everything inbetween). So I did occasionally feel "targeted" by some people (dates "Ethiopean Princes" lol not friends or family so much) who assumed I was rich.

You moved to a mountain town with no car?!? I'm impressed. What was the walk score of your place? :)

If there's no where to walk to do you get a walkscore ;-). Actually it's pretty easy to get everywhere you need to within a short walk or bike ride and there's a bus that goes between all the other mountain towns and down "the hill". Still would get a vehicle if I were planning to live here long term for emergencies and to go longer distances but don't really need one here. I haven't had a car since Dec 2019 when I lived in coastal OC. Had an small older truck (a 2001 Ranger I bought in 2007) as my FIRE truck  most of my FIRE years. Good for stealth wealth! And helped to keep the sugarboybabies and ethiopean princes away from my money!

You would be surprised at how much in demand those little Ford Rangers are. Plenty of men would love you and your little truck, but yeah, not because they think you’re rich .

DH has a 2009 Ford Ranger, and about once a year someone stops him and offers to buy it. See, they aren’t making those small trucks anymore.

[ChickenStash]

I just do what I do and have stopped caring about what other people think about whether I'm wealthy or not. Just know how to set boundaries to prevent being scammed.

[spartana]

I think being stealthy is pretty easy. I live a modest lifestyle with few outward signs of wealth. I likely look lower middle class or working class to most people (jeeze I don't even own a car!). I don't talk about my finances to anyone except my FIREd sister (and current long term BF who's also FIRE). No one asks to borrow money and I'm not worried about being targeted by anyone... now.

But when I first quit my job at a fairly young age as a single woman and was actively dating, travelling solo, etc I did feel that if some men got a whiff of my finances that could be an issue. While I kept a pretty low financial profile with friends, family and especially with dates, there was lots of questions about why I was able to stop working so young, why I was able to pay off my house so young as a single person, where did my non-working income come from to support myself, etc. There were lots of weird assumptions about all that ( poor and on the Gov dole, looking for a sugar daddy, trust fund baby and everything inbetween). So I did occasionally feel "targeted" by some people (dates "Ethiopean Princes" lol not friends or family so much) who assumed I was rich.

You moved to a mountain town with no car?!? I'm impressed. What was the walk score of your place? :)

If there's no where to walk to do you get a walkscore ;-). Actually it's pretty easy to get everywhere you need to within a short walk or bike ride and there's a bus that goes between all the other mountain towns and down "the hill". Still would get a vehicle if I were planning to live here long term for emergencies and to go longer distances but don't really need one here. I haven't had a car since Dec 2019 when I lived in coastal OC. Had an small older truck (a 2001 Ranger I bought in 2007) as my FIRE truck  most of my FIRE years. Good for stealth wealth! And helped to keep the sugarboybabies and ethiopean princes away from my money!

You would be surprised at how much in demand those little Ford Rangers are. Plenty of men would love you and your little truck, but yeah, not because they think you’re rich .

DH has a 2009 Ford Ranger, and about once a year someone stops him and offers to buy it. See, they aren’t making those small trucks anymore.

The guys only love me for my Ford pickup truck! Sounds like the beginning of a bad country western song :-). They ARE expensive now. It's crazy since the little trucks use to be the inexpensive thing to buy. I did get another Ranger last August when a friend was selling his but I only drove it once (road trip) and then it just sat there so I sold it.

My sister had a 2000 Frontier she bought new and kept it for over 20 years. Had well over 200k miles on it and going strong but someone crashed into her and they totalled it. She also practices stealth wealth and it was always fun when we were younger and both single (and me Fired already) to see how those fancy SoCal guys reacted to our old beaters!

[chasingthegoodlife]

Our fixer-upper house, 10 year old Toyotas and non-profit part time jobs don’t exactly scream ‘New Money’ so it just doesn’t come up.

I’ve wondered a few times if we are too ‘stealth’ in that I don’t want friends and family offering to shout a meal etc because they earn a lot more than us when we are doing just fine. Like a few other posters, I am trying to replace ‘I can’t afford xxx’ as it feels inauthentic and disrespectful tofriends who actually can’t afford whatever it is.

I don’t need to be stealth with my family - who are classic Millionaire Next Door types themselves that I trust completely.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

The funny thing is if you're generally frugal, even your splurges are explained away. The other day, someone who is familiar with me commented when I told them about my big vacation this year (they knew about some of my previous vacations). They knew my frugality and said that I must save up and be cheap all year to fund my vacations. I preferred that explanation to thinking the truth, that I'm on my way to ER.

[Loren Ver]

We manage it by FIRE-ing at a point where our stash generates the equivalent of minimum wage. We don’t look wealthy because we’re essentially not. I mean, we have a paid-off house (in a small rural town) but the lack of a mortgage isn’t visible and otherwise we like to live at the level of most people in our town. I could say we have more time but actually there’s a level of unemployment/ underemployment that we don’t stand out. It’s a pretty mustachian town.

High five!  That's fantastic.

We also don't really do what seems to be considered 'wealth' in this posting. 
"Hey nice x"
"Thanks, I got it for $1.29 a pound at the outlet"
"There's an outlet that sells by the pound?!?!"
"Yep, it's all the stuff that won't sell in the thrift store."

This does not lead people to think you have wealth.  It also doesn't lead to heavy spending.  It also does not make people think they should ask you for things.  It's also pretty environmentally friendly.
When people have woe is me about the cost of stuff, I recommend buying used like I do, this flies like a deflated lead balloon. It's pretty fun watching them try to figure out how to say humans can't live like that while not insulting me to my face. 

Loren

[Fomerly known as something]

For me my stealth is partial.

Everyone can figure out I have some wealth, I live in the Bay Area by choice and I’m going to be able to stay here.  But no one has the entire story. 

I’m cagey about salaries, but it’s because I work for the federal government and make the maximum that a normal GS schedule employee can make.  I get paid a lot for a government worker and I don’t feel like getting into the politics of that.  I also am in a position where I can get my pension at an earlier age (47 in my case), I don’t mention what my pension will be (at the median household income) because of politics again.

OTOH, in order to encourage good behavior in younger coworkers I’m very open with them that I am well above the “two comma club” with TSP.  But I don’t talk to them about my other investments.  I say I have them, but I don’t say how much.  But I say it’s enough to bridge the gap to 59.5.

From the outside looking in I live a standard middle class looking life.  I do take more trips than many, but I talk a little about travel rewards and traveling shoulder/off season.  Which likely leaves the impression I pay less than I do for it.  I don’t talk about how I booked a last minute room because there was an issue with my Yosemite glamping site (the Tuolomne Lodge isn’t opening when they planned), so I went with a place I’ve previously stayed but at high season price with minimal hesitation.

[iris lily]

There is only one friend we talk about regularly with about net assets and he has more than we do and he’s a single guy.

I once dropped our asset amount to another friend, but I’m not sure if he remembered. He is skinny FIRE and has been for a couple decades based on selling San Francisco real estate and moving to low cost of living place, then investing in rentals in that low cost of living place. His track record in choosing tenants is absolutely horrific, but that’s a whole Nother story. ( FBI breaking down doors for three  of his problem tenants.
, yes, 3 separate indicents.)

For my close friend who knows that we are/were extremely frugal, I shared with her the amount in my retirement account, because she has a similar amount but she has no idea of the other assets we have.

When we retired, I started talking more about assets we have, but lately the opportunity to talk about finances hasn’t come up. People are still in awe of the “ million dollar “amount even though we all know $1 million doesn’t go that far anymore. I say this because another friend talked  about how his mom‘s estate had climbed into the million dollar range just before she died and I thought to myself, based on what you told me, it should really be more than that, she must’ve had overly conservative investments.But he thought it was spectacular.

[2sk22]

People in America mostly fixate on externally visible signs of wealth:
- car (above all)
- house
- clothing
- vacation

If you can keep those under control, nobody will suspect anything. In our case:

- We have two anonymous cars, a Toyota Camry and a Honda CR-V
- We live in a house that fits right in with the others on the block. Inside though, we have renovated every room and it definitely looks a lot nicer. than some of our neighbors.
- We wear pretty ordinary clothing and it shows
- We do go on some luxurious vacations but absolutely nobody knows about them as we don't tell anyone and don't post photos on social media.

[wageslave23]

People in America mostly fixate on externally visible signs of wealth:
- car (above all)
- house
- clothing
- vacation

If you can keep those under control, nobody will suspect anything. In our case:

- We have two anonymous cars, a Toyota Camry and a Honda CR-V
- We live in a house that fits right in with the others on the block. Inside though, we have renovated every room and it definitely looks a lot nicer. than some of our neighbors.
- We wear pretty ordinary clothing and it shows
- We do go on some luxurious vacations but absolutely nobody knows about them as we don't tell anyone and don't post photos on social media.

People keep saying "in America". But in my experience, the trying to look wealthy is much more pronounced in other countries.  They all try to look like they have American money, and want to look like the Kardashians or NBA players, but have a small fraction of the actual wealth of Americans.  I'm thinking of Mexico, Ecuador, and South Africa as places I've been that display this behavior. So I think the more accurate thing to say is that people in general like to look wealthy.

[tj]

People in America mostly fixate on externally visible signs of wealth:
- car (above all)
- house
- clothing
- vacation

If you can keep those under control, nobody will suspect anything. In our case:

- We have two anonymous cars, a Toyota Camry and a Honda CR-V
- We live in a house that fits right in with the others on the block. Inside though, we have renovated every room and it definitely looks a lot nicer. than some of our neighbors.
- We wear pretty ordinary clothing and it shows
- We do go on some luxurious vacations but absolutely nobody knows about them as we don't tell anyone and don't post photos on social media.

People keep saying "in America". But in my experience, the trying to look wealthy is much more pronounced in other countries.  They all try to look like they have American money, and want to look like the Kardashians or NBA players, but have a small fraction of the actual wealth of Americans.  I'm thinking of Mexico, Ecuador, and South Africa as places I've been that display this behavior. So I think the more accurate thing to say is that people in general like to look wealthy.

That's interesting. My experience in other countries is that they are far less superficial than America tends to be.

[aloevera1]

People in America mostly fixate on externally visible signs of wealth:
- car (above all)
- house
- clothing
- vacation

If you can keep those under control, nobody will suspect anything. In our case:

- We have two anonymous cars, a Toyota Camry and a Honda CR-V
- We live in a house that fits right in with the others on the block. Inside though, we have renovated every room and it definitely looks a lot nicer. than some of our neighbors.
- We wear pretty ordinary clothing and it shows
- We do go on some luxurious vacations but absolutely nobody knows about them as we don't tell anyone and don't post photos on social media.

People keep saying "in America". But in my experience, the trying to look wealthy is much more pronounced in other countries.  They all try to look like they have American money, and want to look like the Kardashians or NBA players, but have a small fraction of the actual wealth of Americans.  I'm thinking of Mexico, Ecuador, and South Africa as places I've been that display this behavior. So I think the more accurate thing to say is that people in general like to look wealthy.

That's interesting. My experience in other countries is that they are far less superficial than America tends to be.

The definition of wealth varies wildly between countries as well as % of people who are beyond poverty line and have resources to display any sort of wealth.

[Just Joe]

We were the typical suburban consumer professionals until a friend introduced me to the MMM blog. DW and I started optimizing in the usual MMM forum ways.

We had older cars, DIY special house in LCOL town, didn't shop much, lots of DIY, infrequent vacations, low cost entertainment. We began to pick up financial momentum. Meanwhile some of our family and friends were visibly spendy so I don't think they noticed anything happening in our corner.

Then several years ago we upgraded to a nicer house (still a DIY special) with some land and soon an off-lease "like new" used car. We'll keep it forever. It was fancy for ten years ago but was cheaper than a new mid-range vehicle so to us it represented good value. And then recently we bought another off-lease car to replace our ~25 year old daily driver so we could pass that along to our eldest offspring who was in need of a car.  The second one (an EV) was also quite affordable compared to a new car.

Two good cars so DW and I can separately travel and take care of our parents who are need a helping hand at this point.

The house outed us. The first car reinforced that. I think people assume the second car was very expensive b/c EV. Nope. Less than a new economy ICEV car.

Meanwhile - we continue to make choices rooted in value. We buy quality brands when we shop and then make them last. Department store clothing most of the time. Occasionally a better than average quality brand.

For example I'm wearing Merrell shoes that have about 100K miles on them now that I bought discounted. They have years left in them. I have a duplicate new pair at home that I bought during another sale to replace them when this pair wears out - someday. Definitely not yacht or country club grade clothing. Who cares? I don't. In my line of work, clothes can take a beating so I refuse to wear anything fancy. If anyone dies or marries I'll need to go shopping. I don't even own a suit. Not sure my sports jacket even fits anymore. I wore it last about a decade ago.

DW and I have always been impressed with "stealth money" or perhaps "old money". People who enjoy the comforts of having money but aren't flashy about it. I understand "old money" can be a complicated subject when one acknowledges all the potential social baggage but I mean "old money" in the simplest terms. DW and I prefer to have the freedoms and comfort of enough money but we still like to mix with the other people in our friends and family circles without the awkwardness than money can cause. Our families contain the whole economic spectrum.

At a recent family gathering a relative who has struggled with spending and a lowish income mentioned that they had been staying home, putting their energy into a quieter lifestyle and their spare money was growing. Good for them! 

[spartana]

People in America mostly fixate on externally visible signs of wealth:
- car (above all)
- house
- clothing
- vacation

If you can keep those under control, nobody will suspect anything. In our case:

- We have two anonymous cars, a Toyota Camry and a Honda CR-V
- We live in a house that fits right in with the others on the block. Inside though, we have renovated every room and it definitely looks a lot nicer. than some of our neighbors.
- We wear pretty ordinary clothing and it shows
- We do go on some luxurious vacations but absolutely nobody knows about them as we don't tell anyone and don't post photos on social media.

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

[ROF Expat]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

+1. 

I'm not really sure how much "stealth wealth" means in this day and age.  Plenty of people with money choose not to flaunt it.  Plenty of people without money flaunt expensive things.  I don't think most people who see someone driving an expensive car assume that the driver is wealthy, they understand that the car might just be a lease and that the driver may be deeply in debt.  I don't think most people really care about how much money anybody else has (or doesn't have). 

I don't think I'm ostentatious, and I don't talk about my finances.  Somebody who doesn't know me would have no reason to believe I'm anything other than a regular median income kind of person.  If someone knows me reasonably well, there's no hiding the fact that I retired early and that I live in an expensive home.  If they know me very well, they might know about the things I choose to spend money on (like travel) or notice that I never talk about things like college expenses.  I don't think there's much chance of "stealth" in my life, but I also just think most people don't care very much.   

 

[2sk22]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

[TimCFJ40]

If anyone dies or marries I'll need to go shopping. I don't even own a suit.

I lost a close friend a year or so ago who was working hard to retire early (she was my age, 43).  I am sure she was smiling down on me in my thrift store suit.  :)
On a side note most people wear suits so infrequently that there are often fairly nice barely worn suits at our thrift store.  You'll have no issues should the need arise.

[spartana]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

[tj]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

[twinstudy]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

[tj]

Of course not having a job voluntarily at less-than-normal retirement age, without any outward signs of an income from somewhere or some person (spouse still working, inheritance, lotto winner) can be a visible sign of wealth without being overly flashy. So even if you keep your lifestyle modest you'll likely get questions and comments about your money if you choose to RE.

That's true - I got outed to my friends when I retired in my 50s. Not a very early retirement by MMM standards but much earlier than my friends could retire.

Or if your friends were like mine, they just assumed you were poor and lost your job  couldn't find another. When I first quit my job people just assumed I'd be looking for one once my "sabbatical" ended. When it never ended it was more like "Poor Spartana. She doesn't have a job and can't find one so can't  afford nicer things." I tryed to explain FIRE to them years ago, and how, no, I wasn't poor and didn't want or need a job, ,  but most couldn't fathom giving up their luxury "needs" - even though they complained how deep in debt they were and would never be able to retire.  Eventually I gave up talking about it and realised stealth wealth was the way to go.

Yeah..if I bail on my job again, there will be no Facebook announcement or public blog.

Once I finish up in my mid-40s I plan to announce my retirement on LinkedIn.

But I guess I'm lucky that my friends/family are either supportive or neutral about the concept of FIRE. Maybe it's because here in Australia everyone who is able-bodied has such a ridiculously high standard of living that there are fewer negative assumptions about people who are unorthodox in their financial paths.

I'm not going to shout about fatFIRE on the footpath because I don't want to get robbed etc (although the likelihood of that here in a suburb of Australia where the average house price is $2.7m is low), but I also don't see the need to feign being a working class person or lie about retiring early. Everyone in my family already knows about my Fire plans and most of my friends do too and a few of them have the same mindset.

Yeah...I get that.

It can get a bit delicate with family.

Last time we talked about it, my mom thinks I should work as long as I'm able to. Dad thinks I should spend more money on myself and he's maybe not wrong about that, but alas....

When I told them if I work until age age 57 when I can start my government pension, the projections are that I will have so much more money than I'll ever need, of course brother in law piped up that I should give money to him then.  WTF?

[twinstudy]

I think if a brother in law said that to me then he would be out of the family. Shunned. I would never talk to him again. (Unless it was clearly a joke.)

Some things are just unacceptable to say.

[Tasse]

Sounds like a joke to me, but I suppose it's all in the tone. I've thought about saying "well you can feel free to send me the extra" here on this forum when someone said it wasn't worth it to them to save $12k per year.