Author Topic: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???  (Read 10250 times)

TheAnonOne

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Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« on: February 12, 2015, 12:19:17 PM »
Hello!

I have been lurking for probably over a year and even before that I was fairly "frugal"

I live in a cheap townhouse that costs me about $700 a month (that includes mortgage/insurance/ and association dues.) Probably around 1000 once all bills are taken into account. (Food and cell phone not included)

My savings rate is around 50%, certain months it can be 40 others it could be 60 or higher. I paid off all of my $50k in student loans back in 2013 and in 2014 started investing this money.

I am 24 years old and make $170K + overtime as a software consultant (income could reach 200k depending on hours billed) and my fiance makes another $40k on top of that.

My NW is about $180k from 0(or even negative with student loans... I never really measured it back then) about 2-3 years ago...

Needless to say, we have quite a bit of cash coming in, we do pretty good with it but could do better. Some people here live on 24k, we live on.... 60k-70k abouts. This should go down to around 55k starting in 2016. This would bring my savings rate up to around 60% on average.
---
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I do own a few vehicles.
- 2011 Mustang GT
- 2008 Sebring - Her car
- 2009 Fusion SEL - my commuter
- 2012 ZX14R - my bike

We owe NOTHING on any of these(I never have), and bought them all with cash. (the mustang and zx14r I bought new) As you can tell I have a bit of a need for speed, maybe it comes with the age but I doubt much will change about my feelings. They don't seem to cost us much, other than perhaps depreciation and insurance, as I can only drive one at a time- the fuel costs are not any higher.

This is probably face-punch worthy in a lot of peoples eyes here, but what are your thoughts on my situation? I do derive quite a bit of legitimate happiness from the two sporty vehicles. My fiance and I love to take long rides on the bike, and last year went half way across the USA (tons of fun!). We already max our 401Ks and IRAs and put another several grand per MONTH into taxable accounts, I don't see a massive benefit of selling these vehicles to forward retirement by what would amount to a few months at most...


So what do you think?
Harmless (somewhat pricy) hobby? Or complete disaster?


« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 12:24:15 PM by TheAnonOne »

Gone Fishing

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 12:36:07 PM »
Probably not a problem as long as you don't get sucked into upgrading as they age.  Sounds like you are on about a 12-15 year retirement track at your current pace.  The biggest challenge will be avoiding lifestyle inflation as your friends and co-workers buy nicer and nicer cars, houses, boats, etc and will be having soooo much fun doing it.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 12:48:34 PM »
Probably not a problem as long as you don't get sucked into upgrading as they age.  Sounds like you are on about a 12-15 year retirement track at your current pace.  The biggest challenge will be avoiding lifestyle inflation as your friends and co-workers buy nicer and nicer cars, houses, boats, etc and will be having soooo much fun doing it.

I don't think lifestyle inflation is a huge issue. I am trying to cut my spending down actually, to get myself into the 60% savings rate zone more consistently. We have an obligation to pay for this year(2015) that will stop us from hitting that (will still be around 50%) so starting 2016 it should be higher. I would love to get into the 75% zone into 2017+ as we learn from our mistakes!


Frankly, I might be the "spendiest" person in my friend group, but I also make several TIMES what they do. I don't anticipate the need to upgrade anything, but I do recognize that machines do not last forever and at some point may need to be replaced (8-12 years?)

HipGnosis

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 01:06:22 PM »
Disclosure; I'm biased.

First;  MMM moved to an area that was bikeable.  We can't all do that.  That's why he's the master mustachian.

2nd; I don't think anyone here requests that we be mustachian to the pint of being miserable.
Even MMM travels as a hobby.  With his family.
You don't have to buy any tickets for your travelling.  Or pay for cabs to/from hotels.

Your age and income give you leverage that most on here are envious of (me, at least).
It's up to you (and SO) to determine what sacrifices you will make to reach FIRE at what year/age you decide to.

Full disclosure;
My current car is the nicest, sportiest car I've had in over 15 yrs.  I spent 150% of what I would have otherwise spent on a car because I now have 2 daughters and 3 granddaughters 1,000 miles away, and 2 of them have some health issues.  Having a car I can drive that distance reliably and comfortably at a moments notice is my #1 priority.  The car also gets about 50% better gas mileage on the highway than my last car.

I also have 2 motorcycles. I've had a motorcycle of some sort almost all my life.  Never bought a new one.  Now I've got a mid-size sport bike and a mid-size cruiser.  The cruiser is much more passenger friendly and the saddlebags make it nice for commuting to work and/or running errands.
Motorcycling is my only hobby.  It is my biggest 'discretionary spending'.  It makes me happy, keeps me out of bars and off therapists couches.

The_Dude

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 01:31:12 PM »
I've gone through a similar debate myself.  To me you need to answer for yourself if you are drawn to an experience or a material possession.  The biggest benefit for myself to reading a site like MMM has been the careful and critical evaluation of where my spending either aligns or fails to align with MY happiness and the recognition that material possessions provide little to no lasting boost in happiness.

During my adult life I've been big into dirt bikes, cars, motorcycles, boats etc.  To many (most?) folks on this site they would be a waste of money.  But for me at the times I owned those vehicles they provided a significant amount of happiness because of the EXPERIENCES they provided me, not the ability to show off a fancy car to friends or strangers.  They all related to what my primary hobby at the time was and what I spent most of my time doing. 

Driving a high performance car on a race track is literally one of the funnest and best experiences I've had and it continues to be so.  I still get a ton of enjoyment out of my track car so I keep it.  But honestly I wouldn't have spent even close to this kind of money on a car just to drive on the street. 

IMHO a person who is honest with themselves about an expensive hobby that provides amazing experiences and can still meet their financial goals with respect to savings rates and retirement doesn't deserve a facepunch. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2015, 01:35:46 PM »
Can you trade the pretend bike for a real bicycle?

Retire-Canada

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2015, 01:44:32 PM »
I do own a few vehicles.
- 2011 Mustang GT
- 2008 Sebring - Her car
- 2009 Fusion SEL - my commuter
- 2012 ZX14R - my bike

We owe NOTHING on any of these(I never have), and bought them all with cash. (the mustang and zx14r I bought new) As you can tell I have a bit of a need for speed, maybe it comes with the age but I doubt much will change about my feelings. They don't seem to cost us much, other than perhaps depreciation and insurance, as I can only drive one at a time- the fuel costs are not any higher.

This is probably face-punch worthy in a lot of peoples eyes here, but what are your thoughts on my situation? I do derive quite a bit of legitimate happiness from the two sporty vehicles. My fiance and I love to take long rides on the bike, and last year went half way across the USA (tons of fun!). We already max our 401Ks and IRAs and put another several grand per MONTH into taxable accounts, I don't see a massive benefit of selling these vehicles to forward retirement by what would amount to a few months at most...


So what do you think?
Harmless (somewhat pricy) hobby? Or complete disaster?

I own two clown cars - F150 and motorcycle. Both paid off. Both paid cash.

I'm doing great on my way to FI as is.

I could get to FI 1yr sooner by getting rid of them.

I have no plans to sell either. In fact I'll probably sell the moto and buy a newer one when something I like better comes along.

So my advice would be:

1. understand the FI implications of your choices
2. assess the costs vs. what you feel you get out of them
3. decide accordingly

If my FI date was an extra 5-10yrs away based on keeping these vehicles I'd sell 'em.

Looking at what I'd get for them at this point in their lives, the annual costs and the costs of an alternative vehicle - balanced against my enjoyment it makes no sense [to me] to sell them.

Heck when my F150 gets old and tired I'll probably buy a travel van which is another clown car! ;)

OTOH - I do limit myself to one moto at a time so as to not get carried away with my "hobby".

-- Vik

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2015, 01:47:55 PM »
OP:  MMM's advice is targeted towards people who make ~$40-100K to where the automotive inventory that you have would be face-punch worthy.  In your situation, they're actually substantially less than you can afford.  However, the main factor with your "consultant" business is income stability.  Can you, with 100% confidence say that you'll make at least your current income for the next 5 years?

Regardless of that question, my main thought is that you're focusing on small potatoes.  If you can rent for $700/mo, I'd wager that you could buy a modest to pretty nice house for ~$200K and have it paid off in 2 years without touching 401K contributions...

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2015, 01:48:57 PM »
Can you trade the pretend bike for a real bicycle?

I've never seen a bicycle store offering to take motorcycles as trades... so ill have to say "probably not".... though that is an interesting thought...

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2015, 01:59:19 PM »
OP:  MMM's advice is targeted towards people who make ~$40-100K to where the automotive inventory that you have would be face-punch worthy.  In your situation, they're actually substantially less than you can afford.  However, the main factor with your "consultant" business is income stability.  Can you, with 100% confidence say that you'll make at least your current income for the next 5 years?

Regardless of that question, my main thought is that you're focusing on small potatoes.  If you can rent for $700/mo, I'd wager that you could buy a modest to pretty nice house for ~$200K and have it paid off in 2 years without touching 401K contributions...

I own the townhouse, I owe 68k on it and just had it appraised at 100k for my pending refinance (Yay!)

I could buy a bigger house, but it's just us two. I have a hard time finding a reason to 'need' the space.


Can anyone guarantee income 100%????
I have been doing this since I was 18 years old, and I have made..
50-70k / y from 18-20
150k + since. (last 3 years) Money mostly went to downpayment and student loans.... though last year I invested around 50k in taxable accounts and maxed my 401k

Recently, my rate has gone up and plan on 170K+ for the next few years.

(Also my SO brings 40k and has some major growth room!)

I guestimate if consulting fails, I could go full time for about 120k/y
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 02:02:41 PM by TheAnonOne »

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2015, 02:10:52 PM »
Just a word of warning, when you are 12 months out or so from ER you WILL be thinking about all the things you could have done to accelerate the plan, but that would happen no matter what your ER date is. So I guess my point is, don't beat yourself up too much 12-15 years from now when you are clicking off the last few months!

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 02:14:10 PM »
Just a word of warning, when you are 12 months out or so from ER you WILL be thinking about all the things you could have done to accelerate the plan, but that would happen no matter what your ER date is. So I guess my point is, don't beat yourself up too much 12-15 years from now when you are clicking off the last few months!

Seems quite far away! What I really want to have happen is have my SO become a SAHM in next 6 years when we have kids around 30ish. I don't mind the thought of working and finishing up the ER accounts in the meantime. So it might be a bit longer for me and shorter for her. Luckily she is (currently) only about 20% of our income but that could change!

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 03:52:45 PM »
Just a word of warning, when you are 12 months out or so from ER you WILL be thinking about all the things you could have done to accelerate the plan, but that would happen no matter what your ER date is. So I guess my point is, don't beat yourself up too much 12-15 years from now when you are clicking off the last few months!

I think this is the truth.

I am at your income level maybe a little bit more and without the Bike I would never make it to FIRE without therapy which would be more expensive I would imagine. Two or three extra days of work is worth it for me. Its not like at your income at FIRE a bike here or there is really going to make much of a difference if your are saving 50% of 200-250K a year.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2015, 04:52:16 PM »
Keep the bike and enjoy your life. To add an echo, your income is very high. If you enjoy the bike and the stang keep em. And they will last forever with regular maintenance.  One bike forum I'm on, a bike messenger in the UK hit a MILLION miles on his R1.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2015, 04:53:04 PM »
I own a Yamaha RSTD, known for going well over 250,000 miles. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

greaper007

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2015, 04:55:55 PM »
My thoughts, I want your job, how do I go about it?

wtjbatman

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2015, 10:10:30 PM »
I'm impressed you and your fiance rode halfway across the country on a ZX14R. Ouch.

thedigitel

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2015, 08:16:12 AM »
With your income, don't worry about having nice cars / bikes if they really make you happy.  I'm a car guy myself, and I get real satisfaction out of having a fun car and being able to work on it and keep it detailed, take it to the track, etc. 

I currently own a C6 Corvette and a dual sport motorcycle.  I debated very hard about selling everything and buying an econo-box until I retire, but really I don't think that's worth it for guys like you and me. 

I don't know about you, but I plan on retiring early AND being able to drive new-ish Corvettes / fun cars until I die :)

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2015, 08:50:15 AM »
I'm impressed you and your fiance rode halfway across the country on a ZX14R. Ouch.

Ha! It's not entirely stock. I raised the handlebars 3/4 of an inch and I have removable luggage bags to keep things out of backpacks.

Not only that, the bike requires a stop every 1-2 hours for gas anyway! (it only holds 4-5 gallons @ 40MPG)

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2015, 08:52:52 AM »
My thoughts, I want your job, how do I go about it?

Easy-

Learn .NET
Move to MN
PM me
Take on all the extra risk that consulting requires
???
Profit

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2015, 08:55:30 AM »
With your income, don't worry about having nice cars / bikes if they really make you happy.  I'm a car guy myself, and I get real satisfaction out of having a fun car and being able to work on it and keep it detailed, take it to the track, etc. 

I currently own a C6 Corvette and a dual sport motorcycle.  I debated very hard about selling everything and buying an econo-box until I retire, but really I don't think that's worth it for guys like you and me. 

I don't know about you, but I plan on retiring early AND being able to drive new-ish Corvettes / fun cars until I die :)

I like the sound of that overall (who wouldn't?). I get a ton of enjoyment detailing the 5.0 and taking it out on some spirited drives. (The bike too, but there is less detailing there...)

A bit over a year ago when I started reading all of this investing/ ER information. I had the same question for myself on if I should sell it all or not. Ultimately, I didn't sell anything but just stopped buying things (Luckily, my garage is full so I can't buy anything else for now.).

Though, I had never actually posted in any of the ER blog forums about my situation. I never needed an 'OK' as I am perfectly capable of making my own life choices but was always a bit curious about what the community would think!



« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 09:01:44 AM by TheAnonOne »

greaper007

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2015, 09:05:42 AM »
My thoughts, I want your job, how do I go about it?

Easy-

Learn .NET
Move to MN
PM me
Take on all the extra risk that consulting requires
???
Profit

Thanks for the reply.

wtjbatman

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2015, 09:23:06 AM »
I'm impressed you and your fiance rode halfway across the country on a ZX14R. Ouch.

Ha! It's not entirely stock. I raised the handlebars 3/4 of an inch and I have removable luggage bags to keep things out of backpacks.

Not only that, the bike requires a stop every 1-2 hours for gas anyway! (it only holds 4-5 gallons @ 40MPG)

The handlebar raise + panniers alone would make a huge difference. My Ninja 650 got better gas mileage but also had a tiny gas tank. 130 miles later... oh, is it time to fill up again?

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2015, 09:40:42 AM »
I'm impressed you and your fiance rode halfway across the country on a ZX14R. Ouch.

Ha! It's not entirely stock. I raised the handlebars 3/4 of an inch and I have removable luggage bags to keep things out of backpacks.

Not only that, the bike requires a stop every 1-2 hours for gas anyway! (it only holds 4-5 gallons @ 40MPG)

The handlebar raise + panniers alone would make a huge difference. My Ninja 650 got better gas mileage but also had a tiny gas tank. 130 miles later... oh, is it time to fill up again?

Yep, they help a ton! The mileage would have had been better but 1441CC engine + bags + 2 riders = lots of weight and air drag

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2015, 09:51:06 AM »
My thoughts, I want your job, how do I go about it?

Easy-

Learn .NET
Move to MN
PM me
Take on all the extra risk that consulting requires
???
Profit

Thanks for the reply.

No Problem. I hope you didn't take my post sarcastically, I was being truthful.

However, jumping into software purely for money is a questionable decision. There are a pile of developers working in the 40k-90k a year range that will simply stay there. The general time to get to my income level is around 8-12 years. I seem to be an outlier in this case and make quite a bit more than people with 15 years more experience than me. However my age might be the reason I have the energy to be as aggressive as I am about improving my place. I see quite a few 40+y/o people who are simply content with what they have making half as much as I do...

In addition to that, the hours can be long. In 2013 I had worked 2,753 hours, which is an average of about 53 hours a week but in reality I had some 40s and quite a few 70s and 80s (hours/week).

The work can be highly stressful, and project deadlines are constantly 2 weeks too short.

With all that being said, the opportunity exists for those willing to take it on and I wouldn't trade it away.

(Though, that being said, the high income + high stress is probably why I couldn't sell the two toys I do have!!!!! There is only so long you can keep this up before you need to 'Get Away' for a bit)

I hope that helps!
 

wtjbatman

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2015, 09:54:32 AM »
I'm impressed you and your fiance rode halfway across the country on a ZX14R. Ouch.

Ha! It's not entirely stock. I raised the handlebars 3/4 of an inch and I have removable luggage bags to keep things out of backpacks.

Not only that, the bike requires a stop every 1-2 hours for gas anyway! (it only holds 4-5 gallons @ 40MPG)

The handlebar raise + panniers alone would make a huge difference. My Ninja 650 got better gas mileage but also had a tiny gas tank. 130 miles later... oh, is it time to fill up again?

Yep, they help a ton! The mileage would have had been better but 1441CC engine + bags + 2 riders = lots of weight and air drag

Now I miss my bike. It may not have been the beast that is a ZX14, but I loved it.

So back on topic (sort-of), I had my toy (my red 650... I think it's a fact that red motorcycles are faster)  that I sold to pay off a bunch of CC debt. Once our debts are paid down and we buy a house, I am definitely OK with having another motorcycle. I rode it to work and its 50mpg was a hell of a lot better than the 20-25mpg I get from my mustang, so it was even more frugal in that way. You have your shit together, you have the means, I don't see a problem! Personally I feel that the MMM ideal is that if you buy something like a motorcycle or boat, or whatever, it should be something you use often and create memories with. If it just sits in your driveway while you pay insurance on it, then you should rethink it.

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2015, 10:04:12 AM »
Perhaps you could focus on finding high-perf cars and bikes with collector/appreciation potential.  My first high-perf car was a '73 Porsche 911S.  I bought it for $12K in '86 and sold it for $62K in 2008.  That car went on to be sold at Amelia Island for $214K two years ago.

Since selling it I bought a '90 Porsche Cab for $24K that is now worth just shy of $40K, and last year I got a steal on a '75 Porsche 911 Carrera and snagged it for $60K.  Other '75 Carreras have recently fetched from $95K to $122K.

I know many people will argue that a car probably should not be included in your NW calculation for retirement purposes, but I would argue that in the right situation that is not the case.

Of course if you're going to do this you need to pick the right car.  I have a very trusted buddy in the business who has been guiding me for the past few decades.  Without him, this would not have worked for me.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2015, 10:17:58 AM »
Perhaps you could focus on finding high-perf cars and bikes with collector/appreciation potential.  My first high-perf car was a '73 Porsche 911S.  I bought it for $12K in '86 and sold it for $62K in 2008.  That car went on to be sold at Amelia Island for $214K two years ago.

Since selling it I bought a '90 Porsche Cab for $24K that is now worth just shy of $40K, and last year I got a steal on a '75 Porsche 911 Carrera and snagged it for $60K.  Other '75 Carreras have recently fetched from $95K to $122K.

I know many people will argue that a car probably should not be included in your NW calculation for retirement purposes, but I would argue that in the right situation that is not the case.

Of course if you're going to do this you need to pick the right car.  I have a very trusted buddy in the business who has been guiding me for the past few decades.  Without him, this would not have worked for me.

That's not a bad idea! Though it requires some serious garage space for a number of years! (a resource I don't have!)

Those are some awesome cars! Keep up the good work on that!

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2015, 10:21:57 AM »
I'm impressed you and your fiance rode halfway across the country on a ZX14R. Ouch.

Ha! It's not entirely stock. I raised the handlebars 3/4 of an inch and I have removable luggage bags to keep things out of backpacks.

Not only that, the bike requires a stop every 1-2 hours for gas anyway! (it only holds 4-5 gallons @ 40MPG)

The handlebar raise + panniers alone would make a huge difference. My Ninja 650 got better gas mileage but also had a tiny gas tank. 130 miles later... oh, is it time to fill up again?

Yep, they help a ton! The mileage would have had been better but 1441CC engine + bags + 2 riders = lots of weight and air drag

Now I miss my bike. It may not have been the beast that is a ZX14, but I loved it.

So back on topic (sort-of), I had my toy (my red 650... I think it's a fact that red motorcycles are faster)  that I sold to pay off a bunch of CC debt. Once our debts are paid down and we buy a house, I am definitely OK with having another motorcycle. I rode it to work and its 50mpg was a hell of a lot better than the 20-25mpg I get from my mustang, so it was even more frugal in that way. You have your shit together, you have the means, I don't see a problem! Personally I feel that the MMM ideal is that if you buy something like a motorcycle or boat, or whatever, it should be something you use often and create memories with. If it just sits in your driveway while you pay insurance on it, then you should rethink it.

I am with you! Everything in his blogs simply points to avoiding wasteful spending or spending for status.

(Also, red is the fastest color, followed by black)

Jack

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2015, 10:59:35 AM »
However, jumping into software purely for money is a questionable decision. There are a pile of developers working in the 40k-90k a year range that will simply stay there. The general time to get to my income level is around 8-12 years. I seem to be an outlier in this case and make quite a bit more than people with 15 years more experience than me. However my age might be the reason I have the energy to be as aggressive as I am about improving my place. I see quite a few 40+y/o people who are simply content with what they have making half as much as I do...

In addition to that, the hours can be long. In 2013 I had worked 2,753 hours, which is an average of about 53 hours a week but in reality I had some 40s and quite a few 70s and 80s (hours/week).

The work can be highly stressful, and project deadlines are constantly 2 weeks too short.

Ah, that makes me feel better. I'm a software engineer making right in the middle of that 40k-90k a year range (with about 2 years of experience), but I'm a W-2 employee working about 40 hours a week in a low-stress environment and in a low-cost-of-living area. I still feel underpaid, but not by quite the margin that I did before you wrote that last post...

Perhaps you could focus on finding high-perf cars and bikes with collector/appreciation potential.  My first high-perf car was a '73 Porsche 911S.  I bought it for $12K in '86 and sold it for $62K in 2008.  That car went on to be sold at Amelia Island for $214K two years ago.

Since selling it I bought a '90 Porsche Cab for $24K that is now worth just shy of $40K, and last year I got a steal on a '75 Porsche 911 Carrera and snagged it for $60K.  Other '75 Carreras have recently fetched from $95K to $122K.

I know many people will argue that a car probably should not be included in your NW calculation for retirement purposes, but I would argue that in the right situation that is not the case.

Of course if you're going to do this you need to pick the right car.  I have a very trusted buddy in the business who has been guiding me for the past few decades.  Without him, this would not have worked for me.

That's not a bad idea! Though it requires some serious garage space for a number of years! (a resource I don't have!)

Those are some awesome cars! Keep up the good work on that!

I second this kind of idea, sort of. Remember, the real goal here is to maximize fun per dollar. From that perspective, is a $30K new Mustang actually three times more fun than a $10K used Mustang? Is it six times more fun than a $5K used Miata? Is it more fun than a $30K used Porsche Cayman S (which would cost the same initially, but depreciate less)?

Trying to speculate in "collector" cars seems a little bit risky and dubious to me, but simply buying older fun cars that have gone through most of their depreciation and then daily-driving them (rather than letting them sit around) is cost-effective enough. If they happen to coincidentally increase in value later, then it's just a nice bonus.

Personally, I'm currently shopping for a $5K second-generation Miata for autocross and commuting. For me, it'll provide way more smiles per dollar than a $300/month Mustang-shaped car payment would.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2015, 11:15:41 AM »
However, jumping into software purely for money is a questionable decision. There are a pile of developers working in the 40k-90k a year range that will simply stay there. The general time to get to my income level is around 8-12 years. I seem to be an outlier in this case and make quite a bit more than people with 15 years more experience than me. However my age might be the reason I have the energy to be as aggressive as I am about improving my place. I see quite a few 40+y/o people who are simply content with what they have making half as much as I do...

In addition to that, the hours can be long. In 2013 I had worked 2,753 hours, which is an average of about 53 hours a week but in reality I had some 40s and quite a few 70s and 80s (hours/week).

The work can be highly stressful, and project deadlines are constantly 2 weeks too short.

Ah, that makes me feel better. I'm a software engineer making right in the middle of that 40k-90k a year range (with about 2 years of experience), but I'm a W-2 employee working about 40 hours a week in a low-stress environment and in a low-cost-of-living area. I still feel underpaid, but not by quite the margin that I did before you wrote that last post...

Perhaps you could focus on finding high-perf cars and bikes with collector/appreciation potential.  My first high-perf car was a '73 Porsche 911S.  I bought it for $12K in '86 and sold it for $62K in 2008.  That car went on to be sold at Amelia Island for $214K two years ago.

Since selling it I bought a '90 Porsche Cab for $24K that is now worth just shy of $40K, and last year I got a steal on a '75 Porsche 911 Carrera and snagged it for $60K.  Other '75 Carreras have recently fetched from $95K to $122K.

I know many people will argue that a car probably should not be included in your NW calculation for retirement purposes, but I would argue that in the right situation that is not the case.

Of course if you're going to do this you need to pick the right car.  I have a very trusted buddy in the business who has been guiding me for the past few decades.  Without him, this would not have worked for me.

That's not a bad idea! Though it requires some serious garage space for a number of years! (a resource I don't have!)

Those are some awesome cars! Keep up the good work on that!

I second this kind of idea, sort of. Remember, the real goal here is to maximize fun per dollar. From that perspective, is a $30K new Mustang actually three times more fun than a $10K used Mustang? Is it six times more fun than a $5K used Miata? Is it more fun than a $30K used Porsche Cayman S (which would cost the same initially, but depreciate less)?

Trying to speculate in "collector" cars seems a little bit risky and dubious to me, but simply buying older fun cars that have gone through most of their depreciation and then daily-driving them (rather than letting them sit around) is cost-effective enough. If they happen to coincidentally increase in value later, then it's just a nice bonus.

Personally, I'm currently shopping for a $5K second-generation Miata for autocross and commuting. For me, it'll provide way more smiles per dollar than a $300/month Mustang-shaped car payment would.

As a full time software developer, in MN I have seen W2 jobs go as high as 100-120k /year but no higher than that. Consulting can be X2 the pay, but remember, if you don't work, you don't get paid. You also need to be ready to interview at the end of each contract, some contracts can be 3 years long though (my last one was) so that might not be a big deal.

You also get no benefits as a consultant, healthcare, paid leave is all on you. Luckily my SO covers everything so the only thing I really miss out on is vacation time, but I can work extra to 'make up' the lost time when I do have a week off.

Depending on your field, years of experience, and area, you might be underpaid but then again 40k to 90k is a giant zone, 40k is pretty low and 90k is right there with the 100k full time jobs I mentioned before.(10%off)

------------------------
------------------------

On the car topic, it's doubtful that a 30k mustang is 3 times more fun than a 10k mustang, but have fun finding a decent mustang for 10k.... they don't actually depreciate that much until they hit 10+ years and 100k miles.

A 30k mustang probably IS 6X more fun than a Miata (in my opinion) you just wont get the rush of 440 HP - 4sec 0-60 with the 200hp(pretty sure its more like 150) that the miata has. (Buddy of mine has a Miata, very fun on twisties but as far as a sports car goes, pretty down in the power department!!)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 11:18:33 AM by TheAnonOne »

77rider

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2015, 11:36:52 AM »
I think the only "face punch" worthy bit here is that you are asking complete strangers to comment on your lifestyle. I say this as a guy who has come very, very close to doing the same.

I am also a gear head. I own 6 motorcycles. Riding is pretty much my life. I spend a solid 8-10% of my income on motorcycling and have recently picked up $racing$. It's a mathematical certainty that I'd be able to "FIRE" sooner if I gave this crap up. But eff it, living this way is too damned much fun. Ultimately it's your choice. You aren't hurting yourself or anyone with your lifestyle. You are clearly in zero risk of any of the really self detrimental spending habits so many Americans suffer from these days. I say enjoy it and stop sweating the details.

In my view, you're doing fine. Keep doing what you're doing.

But really, 2-up cross country on a ZX14R... SO is a keeper!

If you really want an argument, keep digging on the Miata. Best car I ever owned. If I had more room in the garage. I tell you what.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2015, 12:04:00 PM »
I think the only "face punch" worthy bit here is that you are asking complete strangers to comment on your lifestyle. I say this as a guy who has come very, very close to doing the same.

I am also a gear head. I own 6 motorcycles. Riding is pretty much my life. I spend a solid 8-10% of my income on motorcycling and have recently picked up $racing$. It's a mathematical certainty that I'd be able to "FIRE" sooner if I gave this crap up. But eff it, living this way is too damned much fun. Ultimately it's your choice. You aren't hurting yourself or anyone with your lifestyle. You are clearly in zero risk of any of the really self detrimental spending habits so many Americans suffer from these days. I say enjoy it and stop sweating the details.

In my view, you're doing fine. Keep doing what you're doing.

But really, 2-up cross country on a ZX14R... SO is a keeper!

If you really want an argument, keep digging on the Miata. Best car I ever owned. If I had more room in the garage. I tell you what.

No 'Hate' on the Miata from me, just simply an observation from the one I ride in occasionally, they could really use power bump. They have quite a bit of other fantastic qualities about them.

Also, not many people here tend to mention that they have say.... "6 motorcycles!!!! (Wow man, that's quite the fleet!)" I was very curious on what the community thought about not my lifestyle specifically, but about people who own a few non-mustache items in general.

Everyone here brags about not touching a car over $6k and washing zip-lock bags so they can reuse them. I simply wanted to know if I was in the group that everyone here shunned, obviously, I have quite a bit of company here from people who thought the very same way! The fact that you almost posted a similar post tells me you had a similar question.

Hope that makes sense!

PS. Yes, she is a keeper. She actually picked the bike out originally!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 12:05:48 PM by TheAnonOne »

77rider

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2015, 01:13:49 PM »
Realize I'm just pushing buttons in jest.

Yeah. The MC count snuck up on me. But I wouldn't trade a single one of them for even a day of extra early retirement. To each their own.

Mustache man did an article recently about the difference between being frugal and being downright cheap. I happen to believe passing on your passions is downright cheap. Don't do that.

Cheers. Ride on. Live it up. All that.

Jack

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2015, 02:58:19 PM »
On the car topic, it's doubtful that a 30k mustang is 3 times more fun than a 10k mustang, but have fun finding a decent mustang for 10k.... they don't actually depreciate that much until they hit 10+ years and 100k miles.

...and?

10 years and 100k miles is exactly what I'm recommending. In fact, that may still be erring on the side of "too new." A car like that has plenty of life left -- Hell, my current daily driver (a '96 Ford Ranger 4x4) has twice that many miles on it, and is (mostly) just fine. (My modded '98 VW diesel also has over 200K and is less fine, but that's because it's a VW...)

No 'Hate' on the Miata from me, just simply an observation from the one I ride in occasionally, they could really use power bump. They have quite a bit of other fantastic qualities about them.

It depends on what kind of driving you want to do. If your idea of fun is drag racing, then yeah, a Mustang is better. If your idea of fun includes going around curves (especially tight ones), a Miata is better.

Everyone here brags about not touching a car over $6k and washing zip-lock bags so they can reuse them. I simply wanted to know if I was in the group that everyone here shunned, obviously, I have quite a bit of company here from people who thought the very same way! The fact that you almost posted a similar post tells me you had a similar question.

You're creating a false dichotomy. I'm a car guy and I don't think it's necessary to own a car costing more than $6K, because cheap cars are fun too. I mean, look at this guy: he bought a $500 BMW and then entered it in the World Rally Championships! Be like him.

Icecreamarsenal

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2015, 08:23:46 PM »
Thoughts on cars/motorcycles: so many.
Sold my wife's e350, an e93 m3 with the 4.4l v8, my wife's ninja 650, and a BMW s1000rr last year.
It was a breath of fresh air getting rid of possessions.
I whip around in an odyssey touring now, which is actually incredibly more comfortable than my friend's Bentley continental gt.
I miss riding, but considering that it was -8 degrees today, I think I can wait until April to pick up the s1000r (not rr).
I daydream and price out Audi r8s. Then I quickly close my browser and try to focus on the more important things.

greaper007

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2015, 08:39:12 PM »
My thoughts, I want your job, how do I go about it?

Easy-

Learn .NET
Move to MN
PM me
Take on all the extra risk that consulting requires
???
Profit

Thanks for the reply.

No Problem. I hope you didn't take my post sarcastically, I was being truthful.

However, jumping into software purely for money is a questionable decision. There are a pile of developers working in the 40k-90k a year range that will simply stay there. The general time to get to my income level is around 8-12 years. I seem to be an outlier in this case and make quite a bit more than people with 15 years more experience than me. However my age might be the reason I have the energy to be as aggressive as I am about improving my place. I see quite a few 40+y/o people who are simply content with what they have making half as much as I do...

In addition to that, the hours can be long. In 2013 I had worked 2,753 hours, which is an average of about 53 hours a week but in reality I had some 40s and quite a few 70s and 80s (hours/week).

The work can be highly stressful, and project deadlines are constantly 2 weeks too short.

With all that being said, the opportunity exists for those willing to take it on and I wouldn't trade it away.

(Though, that being said, the high income + high stress is probably why I couldn't sell the two toys I do have!!!!! There is only so long you can keep this up before you need to 'Get Away' for a bit)

I hope that helps!

No no, not at all.   I'm actually sitting idle right now as a stay at home dad, but I'm trying to figure out what the hell to do when my youngest starts school in a year and a half.     People under 25 or so with high paying jobs always pique my interest.   

It seems like the highest paid people on here are in the software world.    I learned to fly an airliner and I've always been decent with computers.   But I never ventured into programming.   I think I might want to give it a go, but I'm trying to figure out where to go with it.

I really did appreciate the response.   Contract work sounds perfect to me.    I love to work long hard hours for a period of time and then take some time off.    I can't stand a straight 40 hour job for years on end.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2015, 11:34:47 PM »

No no, not at all.   I'm actually sitting idle right now as a stay at home dad, but I'm trying to figure out what the hell to do when my youngest starts school in a year and a half.     People under 25 or so with high paying jobs always pique my interest.   

It seems like the highest paid people on here are in the software world.    I learned to fly an airliner and I've always been decent with computers.   But I never ventured into programming.   I think I might want to give it a go, but I'm trying to figure out where to go with it.

I really did appreciate the response.   Contract work sounds perfect to me.    I love to work long hard hours for a period of time and then take some time off.    I can't stand a straight 40 hour job for years on end.

Seems like it might be a decent path. I have a B.S. in Software Engineering (Comp Sci) but I have seen people break in without a degree before, though you do have to "Pay your dues" either way, working a few low paying jobs just learning as much as you can for a few years.

If you have any specific questions, I am happy to help. (Feel free to PM me if needed.)

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2015, 11:36:22 PM »
Thoughts on cars/motorcycles: so many.
Sold my wife's e350, an e93 m3 with the 4.4l v8, my wife's ninja 650, and a BMW s1000rr last year.
It was a breath of fresh air getting rid of possessions.
I whip around in an odyssey touring now, which is actually incredibly more comfortable than my friend's Bentley continental gt.
I miss riding, but considering that it was -8 degrees today, I think I can wait until April to pick up the s1000r (not rr).
I daydream and price out Audi r8s. Then I quickly close my browser and try to focus on the more important things.

Wow, you sold quite the set of motors. Are you buying the S1000R (not RR) new?

Icecreamarsenal

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2015, 10:57:22 AM »
I'm 33 with a little baby girl.  I'm trying not to buy anything! 
I miss riding, not the bike (maybe a little).
I miss shifting and winding the v8 up to 7.5k, hitting apexes, not the car (maybe a little).  414hp with a couple of power adders in a 6 speed; the convertible hardtop made it a porker, but it turned like it was on rails.  Pop the clutch and slide the back end out a little...
The odyssey will be sold to my business, i have a fit for the drive to work, and a 450cc scooter for tooling around the city.  It's already too much.
All that being said, I will probably buy new!  As there are so few used ones around.

77rider

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2015, 07:51:57 PM »
It seems like the highest paid people on here are in the software world.

Hot tip. Professional computer geeks are attracted to interwebz forums like moths to a flame. I know, 'cause I is one.

I know guys that barely got a GED and spend their days working uber high voltage power transmission lines. They put my income to shame and get a much better workout doing it. Their unions take much better care of them too. Plenty of ways to put food on the table.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2015, 09:08:34 PM »
It seems like the highest paid people on here are in the software world.

Hot tip. Professional computer geeks are attracted to interwebz forums like moths to a flame. I know, 'cause I is one.

I know guys that barely got a GED and spend their days working uber high voltage power transmission lines. They put my income to shame and get a much better workout doing it. Their unions take much better care of them too. Plenty of ways to put food on the table.

Indeed, an internet forum is a bit skewed in the types of people here. I know a few linemen as well, and they all make 6Figure incomes and tend to stay in pretty good shape!

TheAnonOne

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Re: Thoughts on cars/ motorcycles???
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2015, 09:09:16 PM »
I'm 33 with a little baby girl.  I'm trying not to buy anything! 
I miss riding, not the bike (maybe a little).
I miss shifting and winding the v8 up to 7.5k, hitting apexes, not the car (maybe a little).  414hp with a couple of power adders in a 6 speed; the convertible hardtop made it a porker, but it turned like it was on rails.  Pop the clutch and slide the back end out a little...
The odyssey will be sold to my business, i have a fit for the drive to work, and a 450cc scooter for tooling around the city.  It's already too much.
All that being said, I will probably buy new!  As there are so few used ones around.

Cool! Post up some photos when you get it! That's a sick ride.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!