Author Topic: Couples here that decided not to have kids........  (Read 32623 times)

zephyr911

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #100 on: September 22, 2015, 09:26:08 AM »
The environmental aspect was a really big one for me, and one reason why I was hesitant, and had originally planned to stop at one.  And why I am still often surprised by my tree-hugging/ plastic-bag banning friends with 3 and 4 kids.
It's even funnier when people talk about the carbon footprint of dogs and cats but don't mention babies at all.
Just chiming in to add myself to the no-kids list. One of the few movies I've seen is "Idiocracy," and I can't help thinking of the opening scene while reading this.
I've actually pictured it in my mind every single time I come back to look at this thread.

I think having kids stopped me spending money in dumb ways. I stopped going to the pub on a Friday night after work. We didn't save enough until finding ERE/MMM but we still saved a decent amount.
If it actually improved your savings, that's one thing (a rare thing). If you stopped doing dumb stuff because you couldn't afford to, with the same left over at the end of the day... that's common enough to be unsurprising.
Not really however I think not thinking through having kids and having them anyway has been one of the best decisions of my life.
That's not really a decision. That's just finding happiness in what you have. I would have done the same thing if I'd knocked up my first wife and I'm sure I'd be a happy dad today. I'm happy for you, for real, and I didn't mean to claim that everyone who mindlessly reproduces is miserable as a result. I do think it's clear that the odds of happiness are higher if such things are done intentionally. It's probably not even the biggest determinant, it's just *a* factor among many. Being intelligent, hardworking, and relentlessly positive all probably matter more (and people here run that way).
I do this as well. I'm just stating that the decision to have kids can be something that gives your life meaning and its often not something that people really think through rationally and I definitely didn't think it through.
Back to my original statement - from what I've seen, read, learned, etc., this makes you one of the lucky ones. Your odds of looking back at this point and saying you wouldn't change a thing were probably lower than those of someone who weighed it out, but nonetheless here you are. I'm happy for your happiness.

BlueMR2

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #101 on: September 22, 2015, 09:26:26 AM »
Decided we'd rather race cars and fly airplanes than have kids.  Initially had some concerns about the old age thing, but after seeing so many old people being abandoned and/or abused by their kids, well, I'm feeling pretty good about the choice now.

golfreak12

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #102 on: September 22, 2015, 10:51:06 PM »
I understand everyone's sentiment that you shouldn't let finance decide if you're gonna have a kid or not but if you're on the fence about it, finance is a huge deciding factor.

steveo

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #103 on: September 23, 2015, 12:06:47 AM »
If it actually improved your savings, that's one thing (a rare thing). If you stopped doing dumb stuff because you couldn't afford to, with the same left over at the end of the day... that's common enough to be unsurprising.

I think it actually improved my savings because I changed my lifestyle. We have changed our lifestyle more since learning about FI however we were never big spenders. In stating that I think we would be closer to FI now if we had chosen not to have kids or had less kids.

Being intelligent, hardworking, and relentlessly positive all probably matter more (and people here run that way).

I think these factors and the ability to think a little differently all contribute to happiness. Having kids is great though. I'm not stating that they are for everyone however I do love my children.

Your odds of looking back at this point and saying you wouldn't change a thing were probably lower than those of someone who weighed it out

Maybe the odds are lower. I suppose the question is how much lower. Sometimes you can't prepare for how life turns out. In stating that saving money is a really good way to create a better life for yourself in the future rather than spending everything you have.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 12:08:57 AM by steveo »

FatCat

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #104 on: September 23, 2015, 07:33:08 AM »
The people I know who have kids say they wouldn't change a thing. But at the same time constantly complain about how hard their life is because of trying to juggle kids while going to college, working, dating, etc. And the cost of daycare is pretty high. And then the older kids keep getting into trouble... It doesn't really make it look appealing to me.

charis

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #105 on: September 23, 2015, 08:03:35 AM »
The people I know who have kids say they wouldn't change a thing. But at the same time constantly complain about how hard their life is because of trying to juggle kids while going to college, working, dating, etc. And the cost of daycare is pretty high. And then the older kids keep getting into trouble... It doesn't really make it look appealing to me.

It's very hard to describe accurately, though I'm sure it could be captured by someone who is a great wordsmith.  Yes, there are tough, broad stroke issues that can make life "hard" on a theoretical level (and obviously a practical level) when you go from no kids to one or more kids.   But on an everyday level, sometimes moment to moment, to me, it is almost magical to have my kids and to be with them.  The experience has changed me, and continues to change me, and brings me endless joy that cannot be touched by how hard things are sometimes.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2015, 08:20:42 AM »
I was 20 and my husband 27 when we got married. Like you, we assumed we would have kids eventually, but decided to wait. Every year we would discuss it and put it off for another year. Somewhere around 27, during one of these discussions, I admitted that I didn't just feel ambivalent about kids, I was starting to feel negatively about having kids. He said he was ambivalent and would do what I wanted.

People kept telling us that my "biological clock" would start ticking - just wait and see. So we waited. Instead, it seemed like my "biological clock" was moving backwards. I became less and less open to having children - and so did my husband. After I turned 30, our annual conversations turned to an annual discussion about permanent sterilization.

I think you should keep talking about it. I don't think people should have kids when they're still feeling ambivalent about it. It rarely improves a relationship when people enter parenthood from a place of ambivalence. Ambivalence soon turns to negativity under stress.

justajane

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2015, 09:05:51 AM »
I wouldn't skip kids just to reach the finish line sooner. If you're in your early 40s and already there, adding kids will only add a small handful of years. I would skip kids if I didn't want kids.

This sums up exactly my thoughts. Most people I know use the financial argument to describe why they don't want a kid or more kids, but ultimately I think it's because they don't want a child or more than one or two or whatever number they stopped at. Somehow it's more socially acceptable to say that you aren't having kids because you can't afford them. Either way it's none of my business.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2015, 02:37:21 PM »
I wouldn't skip kids just to reach the finish line sooner. If you're in your early 40s and already there, adding kids will only add a small handful of years. I would skip kids if I didn't want kids.

This sums up exactly my thoughts. Most people I know use the financial argument to describe why they don't want a kid or more kids, but ultimately I think it's because they don't want a child or more than one or two or whatever number they stopped at. Somehow it's more socially acceptable to say that you aren't having kids because you can't afford them. Either way it's none of my business.

Yes!

Now, the financial argument makes me feel better about that third baby I'm not getting. I shelled out a few hundred dollars on school supplies, fees, and uniforms just for the two, for instance. But I wouldn't even say it's the tiebreaker. Mr. FP wouldn't want another even if we were paid to raise it, and I would want another even if they were twice as expensive. Just how it is :-).

charis

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2015, 06:58:06 AM »
I wouldn't skip kids just to reach the finish line sooner. If you're in your early 40s and already there, adding kids will only add a small handful of years. I would skip kids if I didn't want kids.

This sums up exactly my thoughts. Most people I know use the financial argument to describe why they don't want a kid or more kids, but ultimately I think it's because they don't want a child or more than one or two or whatever number they stopped at. Somehow it's more socially acceptable to say that you aren't having kids because you can't afford them. Either way it's none of my business.

Yes!

Now, the financial argument makes me feel better about that third baby I'm not getting. I shelled out a few hundred dollars on school supplies, fees, and uniforms just for the two, for instance. But I wouldn't even say it's the tiebreaker. Mr. FP wouldn't want another even if we were paid to raise it, and I would want another even if they were twice as expensive. Just how it is :-).

Yeah, I would totally have another kid if we could afford* a nanny, a weekly housecleaning, etc.

*meaning so much money that I would be willing to shell out for those things.

Alectejas

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #110 on: September 27, 2015, 10:30:18 PM »
This is an interesting discussion.  For those who have decided not to have kids, I understand why you would feel that way and respect your decision.  I was not interested in having kids, but my wife kind of talked me into it.  I was still in a medical/surgical residency at the time and was ambivalent about the whole thing. I looked at the whole thing as another project to be managed.  I remember insisting on prenatal testing to look for any potential birth defects etc.  The day came for our prenatal ultrasound guided needle biopsy.  The first moment I saw the image of our child on the screen I was changed for ever, I imagine it's the closest thing to a religious experience I'll ever have.  All the calculations and concerns meant nothing at all.  I'm sure lots of other parents have gone through the same thing.  No amount of thinking or reasoning can replace the actual experience. 

EllieStan

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2015, 08:01:36 AM »
I knew right from childhood that I would never have kids myself. The same goes for my SO. The only time where I had to think about this was when I got to an age (early 20s) where everybody ''knew'' how many kids they would have, and people tried to challenge my decision and patronize me (you're too young, wait until you meet ''the one'', you'll change your mind, a real woman wants kids, etc.). That's when I started to think deeper about the reasons why I don't want kids, just for the sake of shutting them up. Other than that, I've always been confident with my choice and this wasn't an issue for me.

The difference I see for you 2 (or your wife especially), is you might end up childless rather than childfree. There's no sense of loss when you've never desired something to begin with. But there might be one if you thought about having kids and your spouse struggles with infertility.

To me, having kids is a life goal. If it was mine, I wouldn't let the money stop me. I would make it a priority over other financial goals that are not as fundamental as this one (just like I do for other important life goals). As you said, I would bring it up or consider other procedures if it was that serious, especially after 3 years of trying.

You sound like you could do without kids. Not so sure about your wife. She seems to have insecurities (when she says she's afraid you'll get bored just the 2 of you). Maybe she fears she'll miss out on the experience if she doesn't have kids? From your description she does sound ambivalent. It's not a bad thing in itself, but you could discuss it with her so you know where you stand (financially) within the next few years.

zephyr911

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #112 on: September 28, 2015, 09:36:22 AM »
Maybe I had atypical life experiences that shaped my view, but I've always seen the question of procreation and the question of parenting as two separate things. For both selfish and altruistic reasons, I'm probably not going to do the first but am highly open to the second.

I do a lot of things in my daily life that I think of as abstract extensions of parenting - working to ensure a better world with higher quality of life for all, regardless of any benefit to myself. In the larger sense, just living Mustachian means many of you do too. In the future as professional time commitments decline, I plan to shift to more direct activites, like mentoring kids, spending more time with nieces and nephews, and probably fostering and adopting.

And who knows... along the way, maybe we'll decide making one or two of our own is also a good idea. For now, we're committed to not letting a false sense of urgency make the decision for us.

Cookie78

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #113 on: September 28, 2015, 10:05:09 AM »
In my late teens and early twenties I thought I wanted to have kids 'maybe in another 5 years'. My 'maybe in another 5 years' mantra lasted until my early thirties when it occurred to me that I didn't really want kids at all, I just thought I was supposed to want them. The older I get the less I want them, likely because the older I get the more I know myself.

My boyfriend, early thirties, also does not want kids, but also doesn't know if he will eventually change his mind or not. We, being polyamorous, both date other people and I could happily be a parental figure if he were to have a child with someone else (as long as she wasn't crazy), or if I developed a meaningful relationship with someone else with existing children. I did date someone recently, and briefly, with existing children. But the youngest was 16 and I only met her once very briefly.

I also really want to be a bigger part of my nieces and nephews lives, which is one of my strongest motivations for FIRE. And I want to volunteer internationally (or maybe locally) with children some day after FIRE too. So I feel a drive to help children in many ways, just no drive to have my own.


Merrie

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #114 on: September 28, 2015, 12:34:48 PM »
I always wanted kids... preferably an armful. My husband didn't have a strong opinion but was okay with it since I wanted them. When I moved in with my husband I underwent a shift from "I want them someday" to "How about now?" But I was close to 5 years out from finishing my degree. Those were some long years. Had our daughter 2 weeks after graduation. I don't regret a thing. She is a delight and a joy and totally worth all of the hassle and expense. So's her baby brother. I contemplate life without kids from time to time, but I could never regret having them.

But that's me. I think really the only worthwhile reason to have kids is because you want them.

If having a second kid after 35 is okay, but having a first kid isn't, how about having a first kid who's also a last kid?

Also borrowing other people's kids is a great option. We have a close friend who's not likely to have kids of his own, and he's an only child so no nieces or nephews either, but is happy to consider himself an uncle to our kids and the kids of our other close friends. Everybody involved benefits from this.

mozar

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #115 on: September 28, 2015, 06:15:25 PM »
My dad had a child at 54, and a friend of the family had kids in her late 40's (partner was in early 40's). So the door doesn't have to close forever.
What I consider is how many adult children I want. As an adult I bring so much joy to my parents (even though we haven't always gotten along). Childhood is a short time if you live your full lifespan.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #116 on: September 28, 2015, 06:48:13 PM »
My dad had a child at 54, and a friend of the family had kids in her late 40's (partner was in early 40's). So the door doesn't have to close forever.
What I consider is how many adult children I want. As an adult I bring so much joy to my parents (even though we haven't always gotten along). Childhood is a short time if you live your full lifespan.

There's actually a book called Selfish Reasons To Have More Kids that suggests (a) raising kids doesn't have to be as difficult and expensive as people make it and (b) you should add up the number of children you might like at each stage of life, then average it together. So maybe you want only 1 newborn, but can see yourself with 3 school-age kids and 5 adult kids. Then you should have 3. Or maybe you kind of want 0 babies, but like the idea of having an adult child later. He would say push through those baby years and go ahead and have that one.

Not saying I totally buy it, but it's definitely worth taking a long-term view. Eventually, they do stop shitting their pants.

zephyr911

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #117 on: September 28, 2015, 08:59:32 PM »

There's actually a book called Selfish Reasons To Have More Kids that suggests (a) raising kids doesn't have to be as difficult and expensive as people make it
This is MMM, we can all get down with that one...
Quote
and (b) you should add up the number of children you might like at each stage of life, then average it together. So maybe you want only 1 newborn, but can see yourself with 3 school-age kids and 5 adult kids. Then you should have 3. Or maybe you kind of want 0 babies, but like the idea of having an adult child later. He would say push through those baby years and go ahead and have that one.
...but that is some of the most asinine shit I've ever read, and probably the single worst attempt at using math to solve a real-world problem.

How about this one? If you like older kids but not babies, adopt an older kid, who is desperate to be taken in and loved, because everyone wants a perfect newborn and that leads to their languishing in foster care and growing up miserable. Like newborns but not older kids? Work with newborns. Be a part of thousands of their lives. Take the place of some schmuck who would only be doing that job for the paycheck.

End result? Make the world a better place. Everyone wins.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 09:25:45 PM by zephyr911 »

urbanista

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #118 on: September 28, 2015, 09:24:35 PM »
If you like older kids but not babies, adopt an older kid...

I would adopt a 2 year old in a heart beat, but what to do if DH would never agree to adopt? I had such a terrible experience raising a baby, the first 6 months was a total blur. But I love parenting my 3-year old.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 09:26:07 PM by urbanista »

zephyr911

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2015, 09:38:26 PM »
If you like older kids but not babies, adopt an older kid...

I would adopt a 2 year old in a heart beat, but what to do if DH would never agree to adopt? I had such a terrible experience raising a baby, the first 6 months was a total blur. But I love parenting my 3-year old.
If it's what you want, ask him. Too many people never even have the conversation. You never know what you'll learn.
I happened to be surrounded by foster and adopted kids growing up, and it was an overwhelmingly positive experience for the parents who did it. It wasn't always easy, but they were clearly happier and more fulfilled for it. I have the sense that many people who aren't exposed to that stuff growing up seem to associate it with some kind of stigma - a last resort for sad infertile couples, or whatever.
For me, if I ever have kids, that's how I want it to be - first and foremost, because the need is tremendous, and I would find great meaning in meeting that need by loving someone else's child like my own; and because I prefer to interact with newborns in small doses, but enjoy older kids much more (based on years as a babysitter and later as a stepfather to two young boys).

totoro

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #120 on: September 28, 2015, 10:03:12 PM »
Long Term Care Insurance is nice, but no one cares for you like family.

"In the only national study that attempted to define the scope of elder abuse, the vast majority of abusers were family members (approximately 90%), most often adult children, spouses, partners, and others."
http://www.ncea.aoa.gov/library/data/#abuser

Seems like the overall rate of elder abuse in the US is 7-10%.

Odd that the elder abuse rate in Canada is also 7% (including financial) but of those that abuse only 32% are family members.  What is going on in the US???

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/elder-abuse-a-growing-dilemma-in-an-aging-population-1.1050233

Merrie

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #121 on: September 28, 2015, 10:04:42 PM »
I like babies, but really I always wanted *kids*, not babies, and so the reasoning in that post makes total sense to me. When deciding how many babies to have I definitely factored that in.

I like the idea of adopting from foster care, but I also know it can be really hit or miss. I would really hate to deliberately have fewer kids than what I hoped for, hoping to complete my family through foster-adopt, and then have it actually turn out to be a fiasco and at that point be too old to go for another bio kid.

totoro

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #122 on: September 28, 2015, 11:37:42 PM »
In Canada there are a lot of adult children caring for aging parents - 70% of eldercare is provided by close family members.  Roughly one-third of the remaining non-paid caregivers were friends (14%), extended family (11%), and neighbors (5%).

I don't think you need to have kids to have an eldercare plan.  There are other options.  But you can't state that having kids doesn't give you much better odds of having family care if you don't plan, because it does. My mom has worked with the elderly for the last 40 years and she concurs.

That said, 20% of people are childless these days.  Caregivers can be friends or extended family members.  I have a couple of child-free older relatives and have no problem helping with their care later on.  Did it for both my grandparents and we have lots of resources here in Canada.  Seems much harder in the US?

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-008-x/2008002/article/10689-eng.htm#a2

Oh, and to the OP, only you and your partner can make the decision.  Not sure that having kids really has an effect on happiness long-term if you live in a developed country with lots of eldercare resources.  Some research out of Norway shows thatwomen are only slightly happier with kids and men not really any happier.  http://sciencenordic.com/older-people-just-happy-without-children

That said, and just to be contrary, my only regret is not having more kids.  If you are on the fence, freeze your eggs!

zephyr911

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2015, 07:46:11 AM »
I'd encourage you(and everyone) to explore becoming a foster parent now.  Yes, it's a crap shoot; bio kids are, marriage is, life is.  But foster parenting isn't either-or with respect to biological kids.  And it isn't permanent unless you want it to be.  In our state, the goal is family reunification within one year.  We haven't had a single child with us for longer than that as they've all gone home to parents who cleaned up their act, resolved what ever issue, etc.  If family reunification is not going to be possible and the child is eligible for adoption, he or she may want and need something different from your family, and that's OK too.  Fostering requires that you provide a safe and loving home for kids in transition.  You may fall in love, the feeling may be mutual and you decide to make it permanent. 

In the meantime, there are support resources available to you in terms of money to cover the child's expenses, childcare if needed, counseling & physical therapy if needed.  What we didn't expect, was how much fun it would be.  Anyone who enjoys kids and can provide a foster kid or two with his/her own safe bed to sleep in should do it.   
At a minimum, set aside fear of a "fiasco" and look into the need in your area.
YES. Thank you!
I've thought about it for years and will strongly consider it when we're in the position to do it well.

purple monkey

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2015, 08:06:31 AM »
I only have one and we wish we had had more.  The having only one was due to job losses and a desire to have one parent at home.

Sometimes infertility can skew how you feel.

Hope you get some clearer ideas soon.





charis

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #125 on: September 29, 2015, 08:13:04 AM »
I'd encourage you(and everyone) to explore becoming a foster parent now.  Yes, it's a crap shoot; bio kids are, marriage is, life is.  But foster parenting isn't either-or with respect to biological kids.  And it isn't permanent unless you want it to be.  In our state, the goal is family reunification within one year.  We haven't had a single child with us for longer than that as they've all gone home to parents who cleaned up their act, resolved what ever issue, etc.  If family reunification is not going to be possible and the child is eligible for adoption, he or she may want and need something different from your family, and that's OK too.  Fostering requires that you provide a safe and loving home for kids in transition.  You may fall in love, the feeling may be mutual and you decide to make it permanent.

In the meantime, there are support resources available to you in terms of money to cover the child's expenses, childcare if needed, counseling & physical therapy if needed.  What we didn't expect, was how much fun it would be.  Anyone who enjoys kids and can provide a foster kid or two with his/her own safe bed to sleep in should do it.   
At a minimum, set aside fear of a "fiasco" and look into the need in your area.
YES. Thank you!
I've thought about it for years and will strongly consider it when we're in the position to do it well.

I think fostering is great and I would love to do as well.  But to be clear, the foster parents can't fall in love with a child and just expect to turn it into an adoption.  By and large, the goal is reunification and prospective foster parents have to keep that in mind.   

Milizard

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #126 on: September 29, 2015, 08:13:23 AM »
Taking care of my elderly mother is a lot of work, and involves a lot of personal sacrifice on my part.  I would not do half as much for a friend or aunt, uncle, or more distant family member.  I would not do this much for a sibling, either, as they aren't helping much or at all with my mother (their step-mother).  As far as elder abuse by family members is concerned, I don't know all the details of that, but I do know they cast a very wide net for what they consider elder-abuse.  Letting an elderly parent take care of themselves when that is what they want can be considered elder abuse, as well as taking compensation from a parent for your time helping them.  That is what I have read on the internet, anyway, an heard from a nurse when I first took my mother into the hospital when she had a fall.  I had an infant and toddler at home at the time, but the nurse accused me of elder abuse because I didn't immediately stick my mother in a nursing home against her wishes.  My mother still is living at home by herself with help for 1/3 of the day, and is doing amazingly well.  Without my advocacy, I have no doubt she'd be dead right now, perhaps after going broke from paying $8000+/month there.  She was in a rehab facility for a couple of months, and they aren't terribly attentive, gentle, or patient, to say the least.

Merrie

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #127 on: September 29, 2015, 10:03:54 AM »
I'd encourage you(and everyone) to explore becoming a foster parent now.  Yes, it's a crap shoot; bio kids are, marriage is, life is.  But foster parenting isn't either-or with respect to biological kids.  And it isn't permanent unless you want it to be.  In our state, the goal is family reunification within one year.  We haven't had a single child with us for longer than that as they've all gone home to parents who cleaned up their act, resolved what ever issue, etc.  If family reunification is not going to be possible and the child is eligible for adoption, he or she may want and need something different from your family, and that's OK too.  Fostering requires that you provide a safe and loving home for kids in transition.  You may fall in love, the feeling may be mutual and you decide to make it permanent. 

In the meantime, there are support resources available to you in terms of money to cover the child's expenses, childcare if needed, counseling & physical therapy if needed.  What we didn't expect, was how much fun it would be.  Anyone who enjoys kids and can provide a foster kid or two with his/her own safe bed to sleep in should do it.   
At a minimum, set aside fear of a "fiasco" and look into the need in your area.
YES. Thank you!
I've thought about it for years and will strongly consider it when we're in the position to do it well.

I agree. Right now we have a 4 year old and a 1 1/2 year old and we have our hands pretty full. My hope is to foster younger kids down the line when my kids are older and require less minute-to-minute attention. I do not want to foster kids older than my kids, and adding more under-fives to our family is not something we're up for right now.

Cassie

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #128 on: September 29, 2015, 01:58:58 PM »
Milizard you are doing the right thing for your Mom. Good for you! I am sure her quality of life is much better. You can't force adults against their will to go into a nursing home unless they are incompetent.  That nurse was totally wrong.

FatCat

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #129 on: September 29, 2015, 03:07:24 PM »
Letting an elderly parent take care of themselves when that is what they want can be considered elder abuse, as well as taking compensation from a parent for your time helping them. 

Yes, you can be accused of elder abuse for things that shouldn't be considered elder abuse. And you can't get paid to take care of your family members, but you can hire someone else to do it and that's fine.

I think trying to take care of my elderly grandmother was one of the worst decisions I've ever made. Other family members made it as hellish as possible. They were constantly coming in the house stealing things and making a mess to take pictures. One time they opened the fridge and squirted chocolate up and down the fridge inside just to take a picture and say it wasn't being kept clean. My uncle would make my grandmother (his mom) cry and then video her crying. He said he was going to use the footage against my mom and me for elder abuse so she would be moved to a nursing home because he wanted to sell the house and get the money. She was crying in the video because of the things HE had done. We ended up having to put her in the nursing home because we didn't feel safe anymore and he had stolen all of her money so we had no way to pay the care giver anymore. The nursing home staff ended up causing her death from an accident resulting from gross negligence.

Don't expect to get good elder care just because you have kids. If it was just mom and me taking care of grandma then it would have went ok. But my uncle really wanted her to die quick so he could take all her stuff. He wanted her out of her house and in a nursing home so he could sell her house, but now it's stuck in a sort of legal limbo instead.

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #130 on: September 29, 2015, 03:13:52 PM »
Taking care of my elderly mother is a lot of work, and involves a lot of personal sacrifice on my part.  I would not do half as much for a friend or aunt, uncle, or more distant family member.  I would not do this much for a sibling, either, as they aren't helping much or at all with my mother (their step-mother).  As far as elder abuse by family members is concerned, I don't know all the details of that, but I do know they cast a very wide net for what they consider elder-abuse.  Letting an elderly parent take care of themselves when that is what they want can be considered elder abuse, as well as taking compensation from a parent for your time helping them.  That is what I have read on the internet, anyway, an heard from a nurse when I first took my mother into the hospital when she had a fall.  I had an infant and toddler at home at the time, but the nurse accused me of elder abuse because I didn't immediately stick my mother in a nursing home against her wishes.  My mother still is living at home by herself with help for 1/3 of the day, and is doing amazingly well.  Without my advocacy, I have no doubt she'd be dead right now, perhaps after going broke from paying $8000+/month there.  She was in a rehab facility for a couple of months, and they aren't terribly attentive, gentle, or patient, to say the least.

So your point is everyone should have kids (and probably several to improve the odds) to take care of you when you get old? Despite any other misgivings about having children, nor any potential that you will be the one takng care of your kids still when you are old? I'm sorry, but among just my and DH's families, the stats would be like 1 in perhaps 5 kids would be geographically near AND not assholes/not problematic personality/not developmentally disabled/reasonably ok financially to do less than full-time work. Even geographically kinda close (like 1-2 hr drive away) would make daily care difficult or impossible, especially with their own kids whom they have to take care of them eventually. Never mind if they have any of the following situations: demanding career, financial problems, physical problems, crappy personality, trouble with the law, mental disorder, etc.
One in five might be generous, given all that, and five kids is a lot! Never mind that the only premise upon which you are having them is old person insurance...not very nice for the kids! Nor likely very successful.
If you had kids and then they helped you when you wound up needing it, great. But planning for that seems like a crapshoot. Like planning for a doctor child or football player or something.

FatCat

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #131 on: September 29, 2015, 03:28:55 PM »
Like planning for a doctor child or football player or something.

Hey, don't ruin my dreams of having a kid who grows up to be a professional athlete and then goes on to become a doctor! My kid might even be president someday! Football doctor president kid, FTW! I'm going to make this happen whether my kid likes it or not!

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #132 on: September 29, 2015, 03:40:08 PM »
I never was interested in having children. DH was ambivalent. We'd dated since we were 17 and as the years flowed by it just never happened. I did give him the ultimatum that if by 40 he did not want kids, there would not be any. I have medical problems that would have made the process of getting pregnant very difficult but I was game.

We now get to dote on our younger family members instead and that suits us just fine.

If we were to have kids he would have been a SAHD. I am the career oriented spouse. Instead he was able to FIRE a few years back to build our rental income and I am finishing up with my day job soon to RE as well. We would never have FIed so quickly if children had come into the picture. We were late to the FI party to begin with:)

We have no worries about getting bored. It seems we are busier and busier with all our hobbies. My parents are the same, never bored always something going on. His dad is retired and seems bored. Their grandchildren (not our contribution of course) are older now, so they don't have to help out as much. I just cannot see anyone being bored, there's so much to do in life!

wenchsenior

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #133 on: September 29, 2015, 05:42:09 PM »
Taking care of my elderly mother is a lot of work, and involves a lot of personal sacrifice on my part.  I would not do half as much for a friend or aunt, uncle, or more distant family member.  I would not do this much for a sibling, either, as they aren't helping much or at all with my mother (their step-mother).  As far as elder abuse by family members is concerned, I don't know all the details of that, but I do know they cast a very wide net for what they consider elder-abuse.  Letting an elderly parent take care of themselves when that is what they want can be considered elder abuse, as well as taking compensation from a parent for your time helping them.  That is what I have read on the internet, anyway, an heard from a nurse when I first took my mother into the hospital when she had a fall.  I had an infant and toddler at home at the time, but the nurse accused me of elder abuse because I didn't immediately stick my mother in a nursing home against her wishes.  My mother still is living at home by herself with help for 1/3 of the day, and is doing amazingly well.  Without my advocacy, I have no doubt she'd be dead right now, perhaps after going broke from paying $8000+/month there.  She was in a rehab facility for a couple of months, and they aren't terribly attentive, gentle, or patient, to say the least.

So your point is everyone should have kids (and probably several to improve the odds) to take care of you when you get old? Despite any other misgivings about having children, nor any potential that you will be the one takng care of your kids still when you are old? I'm sorry, but among just my and DH's families, the stats would be like 1 in perhaps 5 kids would be geographically near AND not assholes/not problematic personality/not developmentally disabled/reasonably ok financially to do less than full-time work. Even geographically kinda close (like 1-2 hr drive away) would make daily care difficult or impossible, especially with their own kids whom they have to take care of them eventually. Never mind if they have any of the following situations: demanding career, financial problems, physical problems, crappy personality, trouble with the law, mental disorder, etc.
One in five might be generous, given all that, and five kids is a lot! Never mind that the only premise upon which you are having them is old person insurance...not very nice for the kids! Nor likely very successful.
If you had kids and then they helped you when you wound up needing it, great. But planning for that seems like a crapshoot. Like planning for a doctor child or football player or something.

I think the demands of modern work/family structure of the westernized nations, combined with ever lengthening lifespans, is just not going to support caregiving of the aged by their own family in most cases. Unless there are a lot of kids/households in close proximity to the aging person, available to split up caretaker responsibilities; enough money relatively equally distributed across the aging person and the caretaker households so as not to create extreme strain; pleasant, flexible, and mature relationships among all involved parties; etc, it gets real ugly real fast. I've seen this pattern on both sides of my family going at least 4 generations back...15-20 years of caregiving in several cases...it poisons otherwise good relationships among kids and parents, and among siblings.

Plus, families now have (generally) fewer kids, and kids are scattered across the country or world; more people are sole breadwinners, and HAVE to be working all the time to pay bills... they can't just give up income to care-give without derailing their own lives.

In the latest iteration in our family, my father is going downhill with physical and mental health problems. He lives alone in an isolated house in a small town. There are three of us daughters. I'm married, living on the other side of the country, and working three jobs. I'm also already supporting my mother (who at least was proactive enough to move across the country to be near me). One of my sisters lives on the OTHER side of the country, is working full time, just bought a house, and rarely has enough money to even buy a plane ticket anywhere. No help there. The third sister is only 4 hours away from Dad, but is just out of college, paying student loans, and working 2 jobs with zero flexibility. She can't afford more than a few days off either, or her life derails.

Luckily my father DOES have money (so far), which could be used to hire caregivers, assuming he can find any in his tiny town of 8,000 people. But did I mention he has mental health and anger management issues, so he often isn't even capable of consistently paying his bills, let alone dealing with caregivers?  He will fight tooth and nail to stay in that house, or at least in that town, and even if we successfully arrange a caregiver, or he grants one of us control over his estate/finances, he's likely to drive away any hired help in a fit of rage.

So...He's most likely to die soon, alone, probably in an unpleasant, traumatized, and ugly way. There really isn't a lot we can do about it, so I'm not going to feel guilty, though I do of course feel depressed about it. I suspect this situation isn't all that unusual.

This anecdote is NOT a troll for pity or advice, but only to point out that although I admire those people that are willing (and able) to directly caretake aging relatives, I would never in a million years count on that from hypothetical kids of mine. Nor is it a legacy I'd want to leave them.

And it's going to be an ever bigger challenge for the country as the population ages, no doubt about that.

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #134 on: September 29, 2015, 07:30:46 PM »
Yeah, even for my mom and her sister, who aren't making a lot of money (IOW, didn't have much to lose by taking the time off) and had access to their own parents' funds to support them while providing only a portion of their final years' care, it was an exhausting experience that took everything out of them. For what most people spend on raising even one, they could have invested enough to ensure all the quality care they'll ever need.

All that said, I feel like elder care is the worst basis ever for such a decision.

Milizard

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #135 on: September 29, 2015, 07:44:03 PM »
Taking care of my elderly mother is a lot of work, and involves a lot of personal sacrifice on my part.  I would not do half as much for a friend or aunt, uncle, or more distant family member.  I would not do this much for a sibling, either, as they aren't helping much or at all with my mother (their step-mother).  As far as elder abuse by family members is concerned, I don't know all the details of that, but I do know they cast a very wide net for what they consider elder-abuse.  Letting an elderly parent take care of themselves when that is what they want can be considered elder abuse, as well as taking compensation from a parent for your time helping them.  That is what I have read on the internet, anyway, an heard from a nurse when I first took my mother into the hospital when she had a fall.  I had an infant and toddler at home at the time, but the nurse accused me of elder abuse because I didn't immediately stick my mother in a nursing home against her wishes.  My mother still is living at home by herself with help for 1/3 of the day, and is doing amazingly well.  Without my advocacy, I have no doubt she'd be dead right now, perhaps after going broke from paying $8000+/month there.  She was in a rehab facility for a couple of months, and they aren't terribly attentive, gentle, or patient, to say the least.

So your point is everyone should have kids (and probably several to improve the odds) to take care of you when you get old? Despite any other misgivings about having children, nor any potential that you will be the one takng care of your kids still when you are old? I'm sorry, but among just my and DH's families, the stats would be like 1 in perhaps 5 kids would be geographically near AND not assholes/not problematic personality/not developmentally disabled/reasonably ok financially to do less than full-time work. Even geographically kinda close (like 1-2 hr drive away) would make daily care difficult or impossible, especially with their own kids whom they have to take care of them eventually. Never mind if they have any of the following situations: demanding career, financial problems, physical problems, crappy personality, trouble with the law, mental disorder, etc.
One in five might be generous, given all that, and five kids is a lot! Never mind that the only premise upon which you are having them is old person insurance...not very nice for the kids! Nor likely very successful.
If you had kids and then they helped you when you wound up needing it, great. But planning for that seems like a crapshoot. Like planning for a doctor child or football player or something.


Umm, excuse me?  Defensive much?  My point was to give a better picture of what it is like when you get to be old.   Don't count on nieces and nephews to take care of you, and don't count on nursing homes to take care of you very well.  At least the likelihood that offspring will take care of you at least somewhat is better than someone else, but I would never say to have a kid just for that reason.  That would be disgusting, IMO.

Milizard

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Re: Couples here that decided not to have kids........
« Reply #136 on: September 29, 2015, 07:46:36 PM »
Milizard you are doing the right thing for your Mom. Good for you! I am sure her quality of life is much better. You can't force adults against their will to go into a nursing home unless they are incompetent.  That nurse was totally wrong.

Thanks.  Her quality of life is so much better.