The Truth About Early 'Retirement'

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Hope to start this thread as a 'catch-all' for anything and everything that might be seen as 'truth' about retirement, especially since most folks seek retirement as an early answer to all of life's problems.

For me, I see Early Retirement as a billboard sucking up eyeballs travelling down the highway.  It is meaningless other than a way to steer people to your product you are selling.  It is a seductive promise of a better life.

There is certainly something useful and valuable behind the idea, but we have not yet addressed what ER really means.  Does it mean fulfillment in an unwillingness to work for others?  Does it mean we just want to slow life down?  What are we seeking when we pursue 'retirement'?  Please discuss

[skip207]

As a small business owner for me its being finally free of the chain around my leg.

My last holiday was 2009.  It was for a week.  Prior to that it was 2003. 
I work 6 days a week and often 7 days in busy times.  I work in retail.  Its 7am till 6pm daily.

Due to the size of the business and the profit it makes we are not able to employ a manager.  Well we could, but we would lose a massive chunk of our profits.
Our business is also very complex for a small business and small mistakes can cost thousands so it needs an experienced person to run the ship. 

What will I do in FIRE.  For me all the normal things people do on a day to day basis. 

See friends and family
Helping friends when they call me to help with a project as I have time
Go to the gym a few times a week, cycle and keep fit
Weekends away
Short and long haul travel, probably on a budget!
Eating out on a Friday and Saturday night because no work in the morning
DIY
Time for hobbies, learning again, probably learn a couple of languages.  Maybe some new skills.
Go to sporting events, concerts and social events

Pretty much the normal stuff people do which I have not been able to do since the age of 23.  I am now 38.

But the number 1 thing.... the real true number 1 thing... not having to deal with the public any more.  Just not having to put up with their BS!!! THAT will be worth it all.

Sat here in the office, thinking "only" 4 more years to go.

[kei te pai]

The last 8 years before I retired I worked as a palliative care nurse. I cared for people from teens until ninety plus at the end of their lives. It was both physically and emotionally exhausting. I realised that for me, the time to enjoy the sun on my face, quiet days, leisure with friends and family mattered more than anything I could buy.
There is no guarantee of health or longevity. I felt that beyond a certain level of material wellbeing there was nothing to be gained by exchanging my days for more money, even if the work was meaningful in itself.
Retirement is just a name for another stage of life. I am happy, grateful and at peace. There are so many things I enjoy doing, today or tomorrow or maybe next week if I get around to it. My work for most of my adult life was rewarding, but Im glad to not be doing it anymore.

[flower_girl]

Retirement and early retirement are not really words that appeal to me.  I prefer to see it as seeking financial freedom or independence so you can do as you choose to do, rather than what you have to do.

Some years ago I worked for the military.  Many soldiers retired early once they had served 20 years as back then there was a generous superannuation scheme and they didn't have to "work" again.  The problem was - lots of them died soon after they left the Army (within one or two years).  It wasn't because they were unfit, most of them were very fit, but a lot of them found they had nothing much to do in what was supposed to be this lovely retirement - and they actually got sick or had heart attacks and died.  Soldiers then began to approach "retirement" with trepidation and the Army here ran special "resettlement" courses counselling them to take time to adapt, to keep busy, to keep exercising and so on.   Social isolation also is one of the biggest killers or liabilities to their health.  I do believe I am correct in saying studies show that to be true over and over.

I want to be productive and creative till the day I die.  I think Mr MMM is an example of doing just that.  To me it's about living life on your own terms and to do that most of us need a certain amount of money.

[EmFrugal]

For my husband and me, we have agreed that full retirement (no job at all) is probably not in the cards for us. We will likely always do something that brings in money because we choose to. However, we have become discerning in the types of jobs we choose to take and choose what works best for our young family and our own personal interest.

For us, early retirement means dialing back the intensity of money producing work. It means taking paycuts to have a better work-life balance and choosing jobs we find interesting, fun, and stimulating. It isn't perfect, and there is still hard work to be done, but we like the journey. And we don't feel drained by it.

In addition to dialing back the income/work load, we have changed our views on what is most important in life. People, relationships, helping those in need, bettering ourselves so that we are more humble and empathetic, rejecting a luxurious lifestyle and the extreme wealth that surrounds our community, finding fulfillment in simplicity and having enough.... Those are the things we have time to cultivate as well. And these things complete the early retirement picture for us.

[use2betrix]

Since I do contract work full time I have slowly started taking some sabbaticals in between projects. Last year I actually only worked about 4.5 months out of the year. We spent most of our off time traveling cheaply (two months Asia, two months camping across US/Canada,m, 3 week 3000 mile motorcycle trip through Baja) so we have experienced a bit and know we’ll stay active. When traveling, we find gyms and work out regularly, even moreso when not traveling. We naturally eat pretty healthy and don’t drink much, so that keeps our health in check.

My biggest thing is getting the time and settling in a place to do the hobbies I’m not afforded the time to do since we move every 6-12 months for my work and don’t have a “home.”

Also - while I will mostly retire, it will likely not be 100%. I’ll continue doing the occasional contract jobs when I want, but I can be more selective. I can take home $15k-$20k/mo on a lot of jobs, so if we decided we needed a car, or wanted some other higher priced items, I could go work a few months and pay for them easily.

[spokey doke]

but we have not yet addressed what ER really means.

hmmm...not so sure about that

[Fishindude]

Traditionally, Americans worked until 65, then retired (no full time serious job) and lived off of their investments, pensions, etc. doing whatever leisurely activity they like, or they might take on a "fun job" for something to do and a little beer money.   

My thoughts are if you can get away from the full time serious job anytime prior to 65, then that is "early retirement".

[EscapeVelocity2020]

but we have not yet addressed what ER really means.

hmmm...not so sure about that

On many of these ER blogs (MMM included), they come around at some point to admit that 'Retirement' isn't exactly the word for what they are doing at 30-something, but it's catchy and seems like the easiest way to characterize their separation from traditional employment.  That's what I'm getting at, and most of them go on to be pretty quiet about how they are now enjoying 'working' as bloggers (although the ads on the content seem pretty obvious that they aren't doing it for free).  Pete himself seems to characterize ER as starting new businesses (like his MMM HQ) and doing experiments (like home heating / cooling, solar, metal roofing).

Nothing wrong with finding out that making a decent salary blogging about ER is win-win, but its not for everybody.  Nor will it really work for newbies as the subject already has plenty of content and the biggest 'sponsor' is Vanguard who do not pay for referrals or partnerships. 

So I'm interested about the next phase of ER's.  What are we really chasing after?  For me, it's international travel where I work in other countries as an expat.  I do that best with my employer though, so I'm not calling it ER, just FI and making the most of not having to work to live.  But I mainly 'work' at trying to understand how folks in other countries feel about their social programs, if they have thought about FIRE, and what they think of other countries.  Writing about it extensively has always interested me, but I'm pretty lazy and it is a challenging subject with lots of anecdotes and moving pieces.  Easy to write lots of content, but difficult to get to conclusions.

[DreamFIRE]

The government stated full retirement age for me is 67, so retiring  earlier than that is early retirement.

RE means to me that I don't have to work a job and can spend those hours doing something that I choose to do rather than working for someone else to bring home a paycheck.  I already enjoy my free time today, but RE means a lot more of that!

[matchewed]

I think you're making a poor assumption that the visible minority of ER people represent ER in general or what ER is.

And maybe we're reading different sections of the forum but spokey doke kind of hit the nail on the head. Probably half of this forum is discussion about what ER really means. And of course it will be different things for different people. It is a way to buy options and a form of freedom.

[pecunia]

Flower Girl:

It wasn't because they were unfit, most of them were very fit, but a lot of them found they had nothing much to do in what was supposed to be this lovely retirement - and they actually got sick or had heart attacks and died.

I am sure the emotional effects of retirement are at least as important as the financial.  Your information reminded me of when I worked in a graveyard years ago.  I looked at the stones and noted that if a husband died, the wife would last 20 to 25 years more before the end.  Men, on the other hand, would often last maybe one to three years until they lay next to their partner. 

Losing a job can be a little like a sense of death.  You not only lose the work activity but the people around you.  There can be a major source of loss.     Like the veterans and the men on the stones, time must be invested in emotional preparation.

We tend to ignore these things as this is not part of what our culture gives us as life's mission.

Thanks for the reminder.

[Cwadda]

Hope to start this thread as a 'catch-all' for anything and everything that might be seen as 'truth' about retirement, especially since most folks seek retirement as an early answer to all of life's problems.

For me, I see Early Retirement as a billboard sucking up eyeballs travelling down the highway.  It is meaningless other than a way to steer people to your product you are selling.  It is a seductive promise of a better life.

There is certainly something useful and valuable behind the idea, but we have not yet addressed what ER really means.  Does it mean fulfillment in an unwillingness to work for others?  Does it mean we just want to slow life down?  What are we seeking when we pursue 'retirement'?  Please discuss

Early retirement is what you make of it. You can have anything you want, you just have to know what that is.

[Mr. Green]

Hope to start this thread as a 'catch-all' for anything and everything that might be seen as 'truth' about retirement, especially since most folks seek retirement as an early answer to all of life's problems.

For me, I see Early Retirement as a billboard sucking up eyeballs travelling down the highway.  It is meaningless other than a way to steer people to your product you are selling.  It is a seductive promise of a better life.

There is certainly something useful and valuable behind the idea, but we have not yet addressed what ER really means.  Does it mean fulfillment in an unwillingness to work for others?  Does it mean we just want to slow life down?  What are we seeking when we pursue 'retirement'?  Please discuss

Early retirement is what you make of it. You can have anything you want, you just have to know what that is.

+1.

It's somewhat ironic that a collective group seeking financial independence, or "early retirement", a concept meant to provide a foundation for doing whatever we'd like, still feels the need to try and set limits on what early retirement means.

Life is an individual journey, unique to each of us. Do what you will with the freedom that FI, or RE, grants you. Want to have a hobby job? Awesome. Start a business? Awesome. Sit on your front porch drinking beer all day? Awesome.

ER means whatever you want it to, because you are free, and I hope no one limits themselves based on other people's definition of it.

Personally, I'm not doing much of anything at the moment and enjoying myself immensely. I've helped others with projects, and even had a part-time job because my curiosity was piqued by the company, industry, and position, in "early retirement".

Basically...I 100% do what I want.

[gerardc]

It just means going from a boring corporate job in engineering with 2 weeks vacation a year, to a mix of time off, travel, hobbies, projects, and risky or one-off enterprises

[PhilB]

Retirement to me just means more time to get on with all the things I want to be doing without work getting in the way.  I doubt any of my pastimes will earn any money (though I may get tempted to a little light consulting) but I have no problem at all with those who do earn money from doing what they want to do.

As for the soldiers dropping dead soon after retirement, I don't deny there is some truth in that, but they are going from an active job to sitting on their backsides.  Most people on here will have had to spend long hours sitting on their backside in front of a computer 5 days a week or more and ER offers them the chance for a much more active lifestyle.

[Adam Zapple]

Hope to start this thread as a 'catch-all' for anything and everything that might be seen as 'truth' about retirement, especially since most folks seek retirement as an early answer to all of life's problems.

For me, I see Early Retirement as a billboard sucking up eyeballs travelling down the highway.  It is meaningless other than a way to steer people to your product you are selling.  It is a seductive promise of a better life.

There is certainly something useful and valuable behind the idea, but we have not yet addressed what ER really means.  Does it mean fulfillment in an unwillingness to work for others?  Does it mean we just want to slow life down?  What are we seeking when we pursue 'retirement'?  Please discuss

Early retirement is what you make of it. You can have anything you want, you just have to know what that is.

+1.

It's somewhat ironic that a collective group seeking financial independence, or "early retirement", a concept meant to provide a foundation for doing whatever we'd like, still feels the need to try and set limits on what early retirement means.

Life is an individual journey, unique to each of us. Do what you will with the freedom that FI, or RE, grants you. Want to have a hobby job? Awesome. Start a business? Awesome. Sit on your front porch drinking beer all day? Awesome.

ER means whatever you want it to, because you are free, and I hope no one limits themselves based on other people's definition of it.

Personally, I'm not doing much of anything at the moment and enjoying myself immensely. I've helped others with projects, and even had a part-time job because my curiosity was piqued by the company, industry, and position, in "early retirement".

Basically...I 100% do what I want.

This reminds me of my parents.  They were not particularly early in their retirements, but they retired with plenty of energy and with generally good health.  I couldn't tell you what they do day-to-day, they probably couldn't either, but they mostly keep busy doing projects on the house, gardening, helping their kids and grand-kids and taking their days as they come as opposed to living by a specific schedule.  They are incredibly happy.

[Happily Irrelevant]

I've always valued time over money.  Some people enjoy being busy and constantly involved in things.  I do not.  Since retiring 6 years ago I tried doing a part time job and it lasted about 5 months.  Being a homebody type I prefer to be safely tucked away at home by 3pm.  Traffic and crowds in the stores get their the later time slot.  But each day I have my main activity.  Tuesday is discount movie day, Wednesday is lunch with Mrs day, Thurs Costco day..etc..   Many would be very bored with how I do retirement but it's what suits me.  I left a work environment where they dictated the terms of my day.  Now I do. 

[Laserjet3051]

Actually we have discussed this many times here. There is no TRUTH about ER as mentioned above, ER means different things to different people. For me, it means nothing. I do not seek ER, I seek FI, which is demonstrably different.

The value of FI should be obvious, no? We have discussed that here ad infinitum.

:)

[TheWifeHalf]

This reminds me of my parents.  They were not particularly early in their retirements, but they retired with plenty of energy and with generally good health.  I couldn't tell you what they do day-to-day, they probably couldn't either, but they mostly keep busy doing projects on the house, gardening, helping their kids and grand-kids and taking their days as they come as opposed to living by a specific schedule.  They are incredibly happy.

Hopefully, this is what TheHusbandHalf's and my kids will say.
That so explains how we envision retirement to be.

[Cwadda]

Hope to start this thread as a 'catch-all' for anything and everything that might be seen as 'truth' about retirement, especially since most folks seek retirement as an early answer to all of life's problems.

For me, I see Early Retirement as a billboard sucking up eyeballs travelling down the highway.  It is meaningless other than a way to steer people to your product you are selling.  It is a seductive promise of a better life.

There is certainly something useful and valuable behind the idea, but we have not yet addressed what ER really means.  Does it mean fulfillment in an unwillingness to work for others?  Does it mean we just want to slow life down?  What are we seeking when we pursue 'retirement'?  Please discuss

Early retirement is what you make of it. You can have anything you want, you just have to know what that is.

+1.

It's somewhat ironic that a collective group seeking financial independence, or "early retirement", a concept meant to provide a foundation for doing whatever we'd like, still feels the need to try and set limits on what early retirement means.

Life is an individual journey, unique to each of us. Do what you will with the freedom that FI, or RE, grants you. Want to have a hobby job? Awesome. Start a business? Awesome. Sit on your front porch drinking beer all day? Awesome.

ER means whatever you want it to, because you are free, and I hope no one limits themselves based on other people's definition of it.

Personally, I'm not doing much of anything at the moment and enjoying myself immensely. I've helped others with projects, and even had a part-time job because my curiosity was piqued by the company, industry, and position, in "early retirement".

Basically...I 100% do what I want.

Well said.

To add to this, if you ask someone what they want in retirement and they say "I want to sip margaritas on the beach", that's not a plausible answer. It is for a brief snapshot, but it couldn't possibly be what you really want, right?

Besides, how do you even measure that? How many margaritas do you want? 5? How long do you want to be on the beach, 6 months? Then what? By that point you'd be extremely overweight or maybe in the hospital after all those margaritas. What are you supposed to do then?

Life is what you make it. Another poster said this and I don't remember who exactly, but it went something like: If you're bored in retirement, the problem is you. You're boring. The world is fascinating and has countless opportunities. Do something.

[Brother Esau]

Actually we have discussed this many times here. There is no TRUTH about ER as mentioned above, ER means different things to different people. For me, it means nothing. I do not seek ER, I seek FI, which is demonstrably different.

The value of FI should be obvious, no? We have discussed that here ad infinitum.

:)

Yes. DW and I right now are firmly FI. When will we RE? dunno. There is no target date on the calendar for us. Both have super chill part time(ish) jobs. Many factors come in to play when/if we pull the plug on employment..."retired"

[Carl500]

It always boggles my mind when I see close to retirement teachers cross off the days until their retirement date only to come back three months after such date to work as a relief/substitute teacher. These teachers aren't coming back to work for money, but they so desire the social and structural aspects of the job. I think to myself, why didn't they just choose to do something they could make their life's work and continue to work on that beyond traditional retirement age?

For me personally, I think the trap of the FIRE mentality is getting stuck too much in a scarcity mindset. Purpose at work is scarce = reduce the amount of time at work. Money is scarce = reduce expenses and lifestyle to the point of austerity. The FIRE mentality can be its own trap if you *just* need to see out *only* 7 more years of a job you hate. That scenario sounds like torture.

I think more than anything the pursuit of FIRE is the pursuit of purpose and meaning in our life. If people were doing purposeful and meaningful work they wouldn't feel the desire to RE.

Retiring to a life of tending the garden, netflix and naps at age 35 doesn't sound that appealing. Even endless travel will get boring after a while. At some stage one needs to feel like they're contributing to society/making a difference/working on something meaningful/purposeful.

I believe everyone should be financially prudent but there definitely is a theme developing in the minds of some early retirees (as found in the post FIRE sub-forum) of "I'm retired, now what?", and "I'm retired, what should I tell people at dinner parties what I do?" that can't be ignored.

[Mr. Green]

I think more than anything the pursuit of FIRE is the pursuit of purpose and meaning in our life. If people were doing purposeful and meaningful work they wouldn't feel the desire to RE.

Retiring to a life of tending the garden, netflix and naps at age 35 doesn't sound that appealing. Even endless travel will get boring after a while. At some stage one needs to feel like they're contributing to society/making a difference/working on something meaningful/purposeful.

There's a growing body of research that shows pursuit quite frequently leads to unhappiness because it leaves one feeling like what they have isn't enough.  We see this here on the forum all the time with people talking about how agonizing the journey to FIRE becomes once they "see the light". Why is it we so frequently see the happiest people are the ones who are okay with their station in life? I certainly feel more at peace not pursuing anything "big" now that I am able to be idle, financially. I've pursued big things in the past and there was always stress associated with it. Though, I'm sure there are those that love pursuit.

[flower_girl]

Thank you pecunia.

I was kind of forced to "retire" when I became seriously ill some years ago.   I had a good job but more importantly worked with an amazing group of people who I knew were a major part of my social/support network but I probably never realized how MUCH I had vested emotionally in that job and how much they gave me back until I actually had to leave.   It was a bit like losing most of your family in one fell swoop not to mention the fact I thought I was doing a worthwhile job which gave a lot of meaning to my life, filled so many of my waking hours with activity and so on.   The reduction in income was actually nothing compared to the devastating feeling of now being "adrift" in a sense.

I actually think of myself as pretty much a loner - always have been - but I loved being part of a great team.  Now I've moved on and I am rebuilding my life but I've never seen "doing nothing" as an appealing option.  Being from farming stock I saw my grandparents basically work on the farm till the day they died or were simply too ill to carry on - for them work and life were very much intertwined.  Considering the ripe ages most of them lived to - well into their 80's and 90's - and how fit they were pretty much till their final few months it was clearly a formula that worked for them.  On the other hand it was an intrinsically healthy lifestyle....fresh air, lots of exercise outdoors, good wholesome food, family all around them, a strong community......I think they were all doing what they wanted so all the boundaries were blurred in a way between work, life and retirement.

As the old saying goes, find a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life.

[Luck12]

Retiring to a life of tending the garden, netflix and naps at age 35 doesn't sound that appealing. Even endless travel will get boring after a while. At some stage one needs to feel like they're contributing to society/making a difference/working on something meaningful/purposeful.

I agree with you, but for some of us with bullshit jobs that really don't contribute much if anything to society, we're FIREing to some extent so that we can actually contribute to society. 

[maizefolk]

Retiring to a life of tending the garden, netflix and naps at age 35 doesn't sound that appealing.

Well speak for yourself. Sleeping in, napping, working in the garden, and watching the sun set from my back patio most nights sounds pretty amazing to me if I can get to that by the time I'm 35.

At some stage one needs to feel like they're contributing to society/making a difference/working on something meaningful/purposeful.

It's quite possible this would eventually be true. Fortunately, there are actually a great surplus of ways to make a difference in the world if you don't also need a paycheck, so I'm not particularly worried about a lack of opportunities for finding fulfillment if gardening, getting enough sleep, and watching the world ultimately grows old.

[TartanTallulah]

... if you ask someone what they want in retirement and they say "I want to sip margaritas on the beach", that's not a plausible answer. It is for a brief snapshot, but it couldn't possibly be what you really want, right?

Besides, how do you even measure that? How many margaritas do you want? 5? How long do you want to be on the beach, 6 months? Then what? By that point you'd be extremely overweight or maybe in the hospital after all those margaritas. What are you supposed to do then?

Life is what you make it. Another poster said this and I don't remember who exactly, but it went something like: If you're bored in retirement, the problem is you. You're boring. The world is fascinating and has countless opportunities. Do something.

How about, "The freedom to sip ONE margarita on the beach at a time of my own choice without work dangling a ticking clock over my head."

Or, in my case, the freedom to go hiking on a sunny day whenever it suits me instead of hoping that a sunny day will coincide with a day off work. Or the freedom to eat a proper lunch, at lunchtime, at a table with a knife and fork and with no expectation that an urgent work demand will pull me away. I won't be hiking 24/7 or eating 24 lunches a day just because I can.

I'm also aware that other factors - family responsibilities, personal circumstances, reduced income, global issues - will crowd in to place new limitations on what I can do with my time in retirement.

[mancityfan]

It always boggles my mind when I see close to retirement teachers cross off the days until their retirement date only to come back three months after such date to work as a relief/substitute teacher. These teachers aren't coming back to work for money, but they so desire the social and structural aspects of the job. I think to myself, why didn't they just choose to do something they could make their life's work and continue to work on that beyond traditional retirement age?

As a teacher, I am about 5 years away, but not counting the days as I do not see that as a healthy way to go about my day to day work/life. I see substitute teaching - maybe once per week - as a way of enjoying some of the fun parts of school and teaching, while still having the freedom to do whatever I like with the rest of my time. Substitute teachers do not plan or grade, they just leave at the end of the day, very different! "Retirement" for me will be about having the independence and freedom. Someone feeling sad for me because I am substitute teaching after I have "retired" will be getting the wrong impression in my case.

[Penn42]

Being relatively new to the FIRE concept, but having taken an immediate liking to it nonetheless, I am being careful for many reasons not idolize retirement as a perfect-life utopia.  Life is actually pretty great as is, FI is still a long way away, and I know that if I'm not happy during my more limited freedom now how can I expect to be happy during my extended freedom later?   Why worry about being happy later if you're not happy now?  Now is the only thing you can actually experience so you've got to make the best of it while you can.  That way when now eventually gives way to later one can simply continue riding the wave as best they can forever into the ever receding horizon.

However, one thing I have thought about is my life direction once I am FI.  One of the reasons life is good right now is because I have a goal I am working towards: FI!  I've always been goal oriented.  Whether it's small daily goals, monthly or yearly goals, or long term goals, I've always found working towards something that is not currently a reality to be motivating, enjoyable, and a necessary framework from which to structure my life.  The extra nice thing about this newfound long term goal is there are a gazillion shorter term goals that I can set that bring it closer!

 

[BookLoverL]

What is early retirement to me, and why do I prefer it over simply being FI?

It's not having to wake up when it's still dark in the winter, and being able to spend all day outside in the summer, taking advantage of the sun. It's going for long walks up hilltops and not having to hurry back down again. It's spending the night stargazing, looking for meteors, and nobody complaining or even really caring when you get up at midday the next day.

 It's having the time to properly clean and declutter my living space, rather than having to fit that in round the edges. It's being able to spend time writing fiction, philosophy, or poetry without worrying about whether it's marketable. It's being able to pursue every intellectual whim I have at the time when I think of it, including switching between areas before I've "finished" exploring the topic by some arbitrary standard. It's spending a week binge-watching some show or reading some book series, with no pressure to get back to "real life". It's having myself be the only person dictating how I spend my days.

It's having no responsibilities or obligations except the ones which I choose to take on, which would be the ones I feel morally compelled to do or feel incredibly inspired about, and which would be ones I could easily drop if I ever changed my mind about them. I want full freedom, not just a little more wiggle room in some corporate lifestyle. That's why I pursue ER.

That said, it is important not to focus too much on the ER aspect at the expense of the present. If you can't enjoy the sunlight on your face now, if you can't find the delight in every new flower in the spring, if you aren't making good use of the smaller amount of free time you get in the present moment, how are you going to manage later? I think in some respects, we have it backwards: ER doesn't bring freedom, but rather, being a free person in your mind already is what motivates ER. And I think it's not necessary to pursue a full-tilt 5-10 year ER, not if your personality is such that being in full-time work for even that long would cause you burnout and stress and health problems. I myself am pursuing FIRE through a mix of part-time work and self-employment. That gives me the chance to do some of the things I would like to do now, rather than put them off until later. You don't have to kill yourself to reach FI, and by taking a route that goes via part-time work or semi-RE then you get the opportunity to find out what you would really do with freedom before it's all you have.

To me, ER isn't about simply setting the auto-pilot investment going, piling up the money, and grinding through, until, DING!, you've hit the arbitrary FI number you set. It's about disconnecting the concepts of "having fun" and "life purpose" from the concept of "spending money". It ties in with simple living, with certain varieties of minimalism, with stoicism, and with sustainability. It's about freeing yourself from what you need to do so you can think about what is right to do and what you'd enjoy doing.

If your living expenses were zero, you could easily retire right now, with a stache of infinity times your withdrawal rate. Just think about that.

[CoffeeR]

As the old saying goes, find a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life.

I really loved my job for 20 years. I was not working. I liked it for the next 5. For the last 5 or so it's been a drag. Things change. I've been "going, going, going" for 30 years. I need a break. I need to decompress. The nature of my job makes it hard to do so without walking away altogether. I will walk away, but the timing it still being worked on. I see myself doing something again, but right now being bored for a season and not contributing anything sounds wonderful.

[PaulMaxime]

Traditionally, Americans worked until 65, then retired (no full time serious job) and lived off of their investments, pensions, etc. doing whatever leisurely activity they like, or they might take on a "fun job" for something to do and a little beer money.   

My thoughts are if you can get away from the full time serious job anytime prior to 65, then that is "early retirement".

This is actually a myth. Until after WWII most Americans worked until they died

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/05/02/the-biggest-retirement-myth-ever-told.aspx

The notion that these challenges are new -- that there was some golden era when Americans were prepared to kick up their feet and enjoy retirement in financial security -- is a myth. By some measures, retirees are in a better position today than at any other time in modern history.

Let's start with something simple. The entire concept of retirement is unique to the late-20th century. Before World War II, most Americans worked until they died.

The best way to show this is the labor force participation rate for men age 65 and up:

[TheWifeHalf]

TheHusbandHalf's employer has a multi page list of all hourly workers, listed by their seniority. The top page, those with the most seniority, is called 'death row.' The company makes the list but I don't think THEY gave it that name.

The list does not mean the top retires first. I think THH said he's now 5th from the bottom, and he plans to go in January. I asked him if he told the company yet, and he said no. He said there's a guy, that hired in with him, who told the company  his last day. A couple days before that something happened to him that would have prevented him from working, which he said would be better if he was still employed. But the company would not rescind the date. So I'm not sure when THH leaving but I got a firm 'yes, I'm retiring in January' from him.

[skip207]

I read A LOT of posts here from miserable, stressed out people who talk about how they’re desperate to reach FIRE and *then* they’ll start taking more care of their health, *then* they’ll start focusing on their personal development and happiness. They may relearn how to be healthy and happy once they reach FIRE or they may have done irreparable damage to their health, psyche, relationships, and wasted their prime opportunities for building their fullest life. Is ER better than their miserable working years? You bet! But is their net lifestime happiness higher than if they had chosen a different path? Hard to say...maybe, maybe not.

For many you are "locked in".  I know I am.  I don't have any formal qualifications, well I do but they are no longer current.  I guess I could jack my business in and go and work for someone else in the industry but for what, a few weeks holiday and a less money?  I would still be in retail, still working those hours but now answering to a boss.  No thanks.  I am already well past 50% of the way to FIRE so why risk it all now for a few more years of effort.

Yes I could be dead tomorrow, but you know what its a bit like someone in the military who deploys - they could very easily die at any moment during their deployment but after 22 years of managing to stay alive (UK) their pension is pretty damn good!

I have no kids or family to speak of so its not like I have to ensure the quality of life of anyone else at the moment other than myself. 

[force majeure]

A lot of people are delusional about affording to FIRE, or affording retirement at all.
Where I come from, nursing home care is 2K per week. How many people posting here could fund that for multi-years, huh?

[Mr. Green]

A lot of people are delusional about affording to FIRE, or affording retirement at all.
Where I come from, nursing home care is 2K per week. How many people posting here could fund that for multi-years, huh?

I doubt most will use that as their measuring stick. I sure don't. Odds are in your favor that you will die within a year of entering a nursing home. If it's that much of an issue, there are communities where elderly people can buy a house and shift to more dedicated care as needed but the company running the community can't kick a person out even after their assets are exhausted. I think my elderly self will appreciate the freedom I'm using now to do the things in life that I would otherwise lament on my death bed having not done had I worked a traditional career. And that's assuming I even get that old. Statistically I have a 1 in 5 chance of being dead by 65, according to Social Security.

[flower_girl]

BookLoverL loved your post.

CoffeeR yeah I understand completely.  Although I loved my last job too and probably would never have left except for the illness now the thought of being stuck in an office for so many hours fills me with dread.  That's why I feel very lucky that my life has turned in a more creative direction with more flexibility and self-autonomy which is, I expect, what most people enjoy about what some would see as traditional retirement too.

[kork]

So listening to what everyone would "like" to do with their time, how does the fulfillment curve affect it?  For example, part of the enjoyment of so many things is the limited access to it. If every day was spent enjoying the sun and weather outdoors, would it lose the appeal from when your access to it is limited?

I read a lot of great ideas of "whatever I want, whenever I want" and I believe the same thing. But, does the cake become less sweet when you're able to eat it whenever you want with limited consequences?

I believe this is very much the case to material possessions (too many video games decreases fulfillment, too much house, etc) but what about events and activities?

[matchewed]

So listening to what everyone would "like" to do with their time, how does the fulfillment curve affect it?  For example, part of the enjoyment of so many things is the limited access to it. If every day was spent enjoying the sun and weather outdoors, would it lose the appeal from when you're access to it is limited?

I read a lot of great ideas of "whatever I want, whenever I want" and I believe the same thing. But, does the cake become less sweet when you're able to eat it whenever you want with limited consequences?

I believe this is very much the case to material possessions (too many video games decreases fulfillment, too much house, etc) but what about events and activities?

The fulfillment curve is a reflection of western cultural concepts and was centered around the utility of money and the amount of pleasure it brings for each purchase. With FIRE you've placed things on the sweet spot of the curve in relationship to money. You've already optimized the relationship between money and happiness. Spending time outdoors is not a monetary based activity and is hard to compare against the curve as the concept of the curve was centered around that breakdown of optimization.

[ender]

Becoming FI will allow me to do things I'd otherwise not be able to do.

Things like:

• Volunteer more
• Garden/homestead more
• Be even more engaged in the lives of my kids
• Give more

[maizefolk]

So listening to what everyone would "like" to do with their time, how does the fulfillment curve affect it?  For example, part of the enjoyment of so many things is the limited access to it. If every day was spent enjoying the sun and weather outdoors, would it lose the appeal from when you're access to it is limited?

I read a lot of great ideas of "whatever I want, whenever I want" and I believe the same thing. But, does the cake become less sweet when you're able to eat it whenever you want with limited consequences?

I believe this is very much the case to material possessions (too many video games decreases fulfillment, too much house, etc) but what about events and activities?

My understanding is that current research suggests less hedonic adaptation to experiences than than to material possessions or social status, but it's not my specific field of expertise.

It definitely is true that removing actively negative daily experiences (which can include going to the office for far too many people) and removing sources of repeated stress (money, deadlines, etc) can produce consistent and sustained increases in happiness.

It's also important to distinguish between decreasing happiness and decreasing marginal happiness. The marginal happiness provided by the 100th video game or the 10th day getting enough sleep of the month is almost certainly less than the marginal happiness provided by the first of each of those things. At the same time, my guess is that the marginal happiness in each of those cases is still >0, so (assuming no negative trade offs*) you're still happier having a chance to play 100 video games than 10 video games, just not 10x happier. And you feel better having gotten enough sleep 10 nights in a row than 1 night in a row, just not 10x better.

*An example of a negative trade off would be: "I bought 100 video games at $60/apiece and now I have to stress out about my giant credit card bill."

[EscapeVelocity2020]

No one persons life is going to fit in a perfectly square peg.  So I guess you are asking each person to explain what they plan to do with their time after stopping work at a traditional 40hr+ per week job.

I will think you will likely find that there are as many answers as there are people, so no "definition" will likely emerge.  ER is defined pretty well.  Retirement prior to the traditional age.  FI is also pretty clearly defined as having enough money to live without working.

Other aspects of retirement are somewhat endless, hence the blog and forum continue...

I probably did a very poor job of starting this thread, such is the stream of consciousness and desire to 'just start talking'.  That it went in a lot of unexpected directions is OK, I read every response just don't get to respond to everything (nor need to obviously).  I was not searching for 'the answer', more a discussion on what 'non-bloggers' plan to do with early retirement.

I understand for the most part that ER is a flexible arrangement that will change over time.  I read a lot of the Post-FIRE threads (especially if ER's knew what they wanted to do), so this is a bit of a sister thread to that for pre-FIRE folks.

It can be inspiring to hear people's plans and dreams.  It can also be a head-shaker to hear the variety of fears or general desire to sit around and laugh at the neighbors go off to work.  But hey, who am I to judge, I really just enjoy hearing what everyone has to say and always appreciate the variety of perspectives.  Thanks!

Edit to add:  whenever I hit post, I think of this guy:  Erik Salvia (caution, link probably N-very-SFW)

[mak1277]

As of right now, I plan to ER and never work again.  No side hustles, no desire for any kind of compensated activities in my future.  I dislike work, so I have no desire to pursue it whatsoever. 

I believe with absolute certainty that I will have more ability to "do something meaningful" after I've stopped working.  If I spend one day a year more volunteering in retirement than I do now, that will be more meaningful to society than a year of doing my job.

I've never desired owning my own business, or writing a blog, or anything like that.  I feel like monetizing a passion will be the moment the passion for that activity starts to die.  I eagerly await the elimination of my obligation to work.  Freedom is the elimination of obligation.

[BookLoverL]

Regarding experiences and free time: it's not like when you ER you have to pick one experience and only do that. So you do the sitting outside with the sun on your face until you've had your fill, then you read that interesting library book you saw cover to cover, then you beat all your friends at a board game, then maybe you practise playing a musical instrument, or you could learn a language, or you could go and volunteer in your local community for a bit, or, or, or...

If I change my hobbies up often enough, I don't get the hedonic adaptation to experiences so much, because if I'm basically stopping doing something once I get bored of it, and only coming back to it once I'm not bored of it. Maybe you lie in the sun for 3 hours one day, then you're ready to do it again the next week, but you did 10 other fun things in the meantime, too.

Each individual's length of time that they want to do something for will be different (and it might be different for different things that they do, too), but the reason work interferes with this process for me is that the time until I start getting bored of something, for me, if I'm doing it for more than 20 hours a week, is normally about 2 weeks. So you can see how that might be a problem if I'm expected to keep going back and doing the same thing for a lot longer than that. I'd go so far as to say that if I was working 5 hours a week or less, I'd never be bored ever again. ;)

At least, that's the type of feeling I remember from back when I was a teenager and wasn't really expected to do much in my summer holidays except for a few chores.

[PhilB]

So listening to what everyone would "like" to do with their time, how does the fulfillment curve affect it?  For example, part of the enjoyment of so many things is the limited access to it. If every day was spent enjoying the sun and weather outdoors, would it lose the appeal from when you're access to it is limited?

I read a lot of great ideas of "whatever I want, whenever I want" and I believe the same thing. But, does the cake become less sweet when you're able to eat it whenever you want with limited consequences?

I believe this is very much the case to material possessions (too many video games decreases fulfillment, too much house, etc) but what about events and activities?

Noooo.

Not at all. Not even a little bit.

The better my life gets, the more I enjoy the things I love because they lack the melancholy of feeling limited and scarce.

Vacations used to be borderline miserable because I had so little time and felt so much pressure to both squeeze as much out of them as possible, while also needing as much rest and recovery as possible to throw myself back into the meat-grinder of my regular daily routine.

Having plenty of what I want in life allows me to be more present and enjoy it more fully without fear, dread, or resentment.

If what you want isn’t making you happy because you have plenty of it, then it’s not because you have too much of what you want, it’s because you need to rethink what you want in the first place.

+1
One of the things I'm most looking forward to is the ability to have a completely guilt-free day off doing nothing.  No feeling that I should be catching up on jobs or that I should be using my limited free time to do something 'special'.

[pecunia]

PhilB:

One of the things I'm most looking forward to is the ability to have a completely guilt-free day off doing nothing.  No feeling that I should be catching up on jobs or that I should be using my limited free time to do something 'special'.

Will any of you be as free as you imagine?  Won't you want to discipline yourself for some sort of improvement / maintenance?  You may not want to take that run / walk every morning, but you still know you need to do it.  You may not always want to pick up that guitar / violin / electric bass, but you want to get closer to mastering it.  It may not always be a labor of love, but you know you'll be better for doing it. 

There will be many things like that if you want to get things out of this FI life.  Without challenging yourself at various activities, life may have less meaning.

One guilt free day of doing nothing can roll into another and another.  Do you really want that to happen?

[BookLoverL]

PhilB:

One of the things I'm most looking forward to is the ability to have a completely guilt-free day off doing nothing.  No feeling that I should be catching up on jobs or that I should be using my limited free time to do something 'special'.

Will any of you be as free as you imagine?  Won't you want to discipline yourself for some sort of improvement / maintenance?  You may not want to take that run / walk every morning, but you still know you need to do it.  You may not always want to pick up that guitar / violin / electric bass, but you want to get closer to mastering it.  It may not always be a labor of love, but you know you'll be better for doing it. 

There will be many things like that if you want to get things out of this FI life.  Without challenging yourself at various activities, life may have less meaning.

One guilt free day of doing nothing can roll into another and another.  Do you really want that to happen?

It's actually easier for me to keep up an exercise routine the less hours I'm working, because then I feel like I've got plenty of time to fit it in, rather than the time spent running having to come out of my limited having-fun time. And after a few completely guilt-free days in a row, it's usually the case that you come up with some idea of something else to do anyway, and it's usually much more fun/meaningful than work would have been.

One boring day of doing meaningless work can roll into another and another. Do you really want that to happen? ;)

[PhilB]

PhilB:

One of the things I'm most looking forward to is the ability to have a completely guilt-free day off doing nothing.  No feeling that I should be catching up on jobs or that I should be using my limited free time to do something 'special'.

Will any of you be as free as you imagine?  Won't you want to discipline yourself for some sort of improvement / maintenance?  You may not want to take that run / walk every morning, but you still know you need to do it.  You may not always want to pick up that guitar / violin / electric bass, but you want to get closer to mastering it.  It may not always be a labor of love, but you know you'll be better for doing it. 

There will be many things like that if you want to get things out of this FI life.  Without challenging yourself at various activities, life may have less meaning.

One guilt free day of doing nothing can roll into another and another.  Do you really want that to happen?

It's actually easier for me to keep up an exercise routine the less hours I'm working, because then I feel like I've got plenty of time to fit it in, rather than the time spent running having to come out of my limited having-fun time. And after a few completely guilt-free days in a row, it's usually the case that you come up with some idea of something else to do anyway, and it's usually much more fun/meaningful than work would have been.

One boring day of doing meaningless work can roll into another and another. Do you really want that to happen? ;)

I agree with pecunia that there is a risk of people spending too much time chilling, but it's a risk I personally am happy to take ;)
I agree rather more with BookLover - it's going to be so much easier to get my exercise requirement (mainly just by cycling to the shops) without most of every day being spent in front of a keyboard.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

PhilB:

One of the things I'm most looking forward to is the ability to have a completely guilt-free day off doing nothing.  No feeling that I should be catching up on jobs or that I should be using my limited free time to do something 'special'.

Will any of you be as free as you imagine?  Won't you want to discipline yourself for some sort of improvement / maintenance?  You may not want to take that run / walk every morning, but you still know you need to do it.  You may not always want to pick up that guitar / violin / electric bass, but you want to get closer to mastering it.  It may not always be a labor of love, but you know you'll be better for doing it. 

There will be many things like that if you want to get things out of this FI life.  Without challenging yourself at various activities, life may have less meaning.

One guilt free day of doing nothing can roll into another and another.  Do you really want that to happen?

It's a good question.  I'm not so worried that days of doing nothing will become the norm, but it will be easier to put off doing 'unpleasant things', especially when it is so hot and humid outside like now.  One reason I put off ER was because we enjoy the affordable, high standard of living in Houston for raising our family, as well as its cosmopolitan culture and abundance of international travel.  So if I'm here, I might as well work during the hottest, nastiest parts of the day.

This feeds into another thought, many ERs are actually doing things that would be considered work (even reading a book is work if you are a reviewer, editor, budding author, etc.).  Heck even exercise is a job for a lot of personal trainers, PT's, and athletes.  On one hand, it's nice to know that you can turn your hobbies into side hustles, but it's also frustrating to think that I'm turning down work at something that I'm innately good at and get really well compensated and cared for (health care, generous paid vacation, retirement plan), for something I barely get paid to do, so I don't think I'd ever want to get paid and have obligations associated with my hobby. 

So therein lies the rub, if I'm not obligated to do something and improve and push beyond just having fun, will my hobbies be enough to keep me fulfilled?  Easy to say mostly yes for a year or two since it's a whole new lifestyle, but even 'successful' bloggers and YouTubers seem to be burning out, churning old content, or posting a lot less after a few years.