The Seductiveness of SUVS

[Tetsuya Hondo]

but at least if i hit something or someone hits me, i feel safer in my suv.

Ugh. Feeling safe and being safe are not the same thing. Please review the study posted earlier in the thread. Just because a vehicle is bigger, that does not mean that you are safer. Many large vehicles are not any safer for their occupants but are much more dangerous for other drivers. That's a lose-lose scenario.

Speaking of, here's a fun pick of a collision between a Mini and a Suburban...

[Everything in Moderation]

One of the main themes of this blog is to live 'a frugal life, but a good life".  Certain people find somethings worth spending money on more than others.  Cable, a really nice house, organic food, travel, whatever.  I believe MMM had a $400,000 house until recently.  Personal choices are what makes this blog great.  We can all learn from others experiences. 

Cars seem to be a topic that people great very aggressive with on this blog.  I respect anyone that does not want a SUV.  It just is not important to them, and they save money and impact on the environment.  Seriously, good for you!  The thing that surprises me is the harsh judgement many of these people have on SUV drivers. 

Have you ever considered that some SUV drivers make up the difference elsewhere, do somethings more frugal than you, offset the environmental and financial drain in other areas?  Perhaps they have different needs/ wants and/ or goals than you? 

I just purchased my first SUV, a 2011 toyota Highlander SE, certified used.  I spent $26,000 and have no regrets whatsoever!  I saved, and prioritized, and I can afford it.  Also, I reused almost everything I come into contact with, recycle (I bring things from work, so they can be recycled at home), used cloth diapers,  keep my heat extremely low, never put the air on, walk or bike many places, almost never buy new, have a side gig, always give back to State and National parks, we backpack and always care for the space we stay in, don't travel much, rent a tiny inexpensive home... the list goes on and on. 

My car is important to me.  I need to use it for my professional job.  I am starting my family, and will have several kids.  We drive cars until their death, so I plan on having this car for a long time. 

As far as safety, I don't know the research out there, but if you were given a choice of sitting in a large SUV or a small inexpensive sedan (and have a loved family member with you, i.e. infant), and then have the cars driven into each other at 60 miles per hour, I bet you would pick the SUV. 

Not every SUV driver is a jerk, aggressive and stupid driver, tying to kill the earth.  Everyone makes personal choices, and we personally try to make up for this choice in other areas.  Perhaps I am not so different than you after all?  Maybe you have a splurge area that I don't have?  Travel is one example that impacts the Earth greatly. 

I write this to respectfully challenge the viewpoint of some of you. 

[randymarsh]

Certain people find somethings worth spending money on more than others.  Cable, a really nice house, organic food, travel, whatever.  I believe MMM had a $400,000 house until recently.  Personal choices are what makes this blog great.  We can all learn from others experiences.

Cable is much cheaper than an SUV (or any car for that matter). A nice home cannot cause the same harm to me as when you plow into me because you wanted to feel safe. Organic food is actually good for you and can't harm anyone else. MMM also sold his 400K house (which honestly wasn't that big. I could get a similarly sized home for 200K) because he realized it was more than he needed and not worth the additional cost.

Cars seem to be a topic that people great very aggressive with on this blog.

People are aggressive because Americans are insanely attached to their vehicles and it's the area where changes mean saving a lot of money and getting to FIRE quicker.

Have you ever considered that some SUV drivers make up the difference elsewhere, do somethings more frugal than you, offset the environmental and financial drain in other areas?  Perhaps they have different needs/ wants and/ or goals than you? 

I might buy that for some MMM readers, but I still have my doubts. The amount of additional fuel trucks and SUVs use is extremely high.

As far as safety, I don't know the research out there, but if you were given a choice of sitting in a large SUV or a small inexpensive sedan (and have a loved family member with you, i.e. infant), and then have the cars driven into each other at 60 miles per hour, I bet you would pick the SUV. 

Depends how small the car is. Also this hypothetical ignores that the driver of a smaller vehicle could more easily avoid the entire collision in the first place due to shorter braking distance and better maneuverability.

If we follow this logic to its conclusion, then everyone should be driving the biggest vehicle possible.

[mustachianteacher]

And has this guy ever owned a hatchback?!? (dumb question, I guess) As a smitten hatchback owner, I will say they are WORLDS apart from a sedan in terms of being able to carry large items and/or large amounts of items. I replaced my 17 year old sedan with a Nissan Versa hatch last year and I've been able to fit some impressive loads... I'm kind of obsessed with it.

Me too, me too! I *love* hatchbacks, and I too replaced a teenaged Corolla with a Versa hatchback thinking it was basically an even trade in terms of space, but heck no -- the Versa is way roomier! When I put even half the backseat down, I can fit a crazy amount of stuff back there.

[Everything in Moderation]

Yes, cable is much cheaper than an SUV.  But all my my efforts combined really do add up.  I also walk and bike all the time, cutting my gas usage dramatically.  If driving an SUV is the 1 "bad" thing I do in live, than I am okay with that.  I give back to the earth and my savings account in so many other ways. 

I would not say at all that I am insanely attached to my car.  I just have different priorities than you, as hard as that may be believed.

You car crash situation is hypothetical as well. 

"If we follow this logic to its conclusion, then everyone should be driving the biggest vehicle possible. "  That is not what I am saying.  I am saying that people can choose what works for them, and if they happen to choose an SUV, then that automatically does not make them a bad or irresponsible person. 

To each his own.  I am just bringing up that there are different wants/ needs/ and goals in life, and that every SUV driving is not Satan on the road. 

It is always wise to understand, or at least acknowledge the other side of the argument, if you plan on changing peoples minds.  If you demonize them all, then you have a long way to go in changing opinions. 

I completely understand your side of the argument and I respect it.  However, we do not live in a dictatorship and if you think all Americans will stop driving SUVs, than you are living in a dream world.

If you want to spend your time hating SUV drivings, more power to you.  I am just questioning the attitude that all SUV drivers are stupid, aggressive drivers, that hate the Earth.  Maybe there is a chance that a percentage of SUVs drivers are responsible financially and environmentally. 

[daverobev]

I'm sad now. This thread does actually make me feel a little sick. Byebye, glaciers. Byebye, wildlife.

I understand. But still. Sad.

[ace1224]

but at least if i hit something or someone hits me, i feel safer in my suv.

Ugh. Feeling safe and being safe are not the same thing. Please review the study posted earlier in the thread. Just because a vehicle is bigger, that does not mean that you are safer. Many large vehicles are not any safer for their occupants but are much more dangerous for other drivers. That's a lose-lose scenario.

Speaking of, here's a fun pick of a collision between a Mini and a Suburban...

no i meant feeling safe.  i realize it may not actually be safer, but it makes me feel safer.  and i get that a lot of people think SUVs are ridiculous, i personally do not.  its not illegal to own or operate one, so i don't see the big deal.  aside from if you are an environmentalist, which i am not, i don't see the big deal. 
also i couldn't see the picture, its blocked by my work.  did the mini survive intact while the suburban was crushed?  that would be funny actually

[Tetsuya Hondo]

If you want to spend your time hating SUV drivings, more power to you.  I am just questioning the attitude that all SUV drivers are stupid, aggressive drivers, that hate the Earth.  Maybe there is a chance that a percentage of SUVs drivers are responsible financially and environmentally.

I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but you don't strike me as the type of SUV driver that gets my dander up. While I personally dislike them for many reasons, if it's the choice that makes the most sense for you then so be it. My father drives a large gas-guzzling truck, but he's a contractor that's constantly hauling bed fulls of materials and equipment down gravel roads and muddy fields. He needs it. Not everyone can get by with a Yaris.

Personally, my beef is with the lone commuter that drives one everywhere because they feel safer or think it makes them look a bit more butch.

[Everything in Moderation]

I think we have bigger concerns than SUVs.  Here are 2 great articles.  I do not disagree that SUVs add to the problem, but people seem to put more energy into attacking their neighbor for driving an SUV than tackling substantially larger issues life factories and war.  Perhaps we should put our effort into turning off lights, lowering heat, passing laws that require stores to not keep the air conditioning on at insanely cold temperatures, and not going to war over oil. 

It is easy to judge/ attack an SUV driver.  It takes a bit of education to take a step back and see the bigger picture. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/10/biggest-polluters-us_n_3900812.html
The new report, from the group Environment America, ranks the 100 dirtiest power plants in the U.S. Overall, nearly 6,000 different power generation facilities are located in the U.S., which in total account for 41 percent of the greenhouse gas emissions produced here. But the 100 dirtiest alone -- all but two of which are coal-fired power plants -- create nearly half of those planet-warming emissions.


http://www.projectcensored.org/2-us-department-of-defense-is-the-worst-polluter-on-the-planet/

"The US military is responsible for the most egregious and widespread pollution of the planet, yet this information and accompanying documentation goes almost entirely unreported. In spite of the evidence, the environmental impact of the US military goes largely unaddressed by environmental organizations and was not the focus of any discussions or proposed restrictions at the recent UN Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen. This impact includes uninhibited use of fossil fuels, massive creation of greenhouse gases, and extensive release of radioactive and chemical contaminants into the air, water, and soil."

[Tetsuya Hondo]

no i meant feeling safe.  i realize it may not actually be safer, but it makes me feel safer.  and i get that a lot of people think SUVs are ridiculous, i personally do not.  its not illegal to own or operate one, so i don't see the big deal.  aside from if you are an environmentalist, which i am not, i don't see the big deal. 
also i couldn't see the picture, its blocked by my work.  did the mini survive intact while the suburban was crushed?  that would be funny actually

The big deal is that you double the odds of killing another driver in an accident while not doing anything that actually makes you safer than if you were in a well made sedan or minivan. For the pleasure, you also waste a lot more money in gas.

The Mini had a damaged front end but the passenger compartment was unaffected. The Suburban was on its side (another drawback of an SUV - tipping over) with a bashed in side.

[Eric]

no i meant feeling safe.  i realize it may not actually be safer, but it makes me feel safer.  and i get that a lot of people think SUVs are ridiculous, i personally do not.  its not illegal to own or operate one, so i don't see the big deal.  aside from if you are an environmentalist, which i am not, i don't see the big deal. 
also i couldn't see the picture, its blocked by my work.  did the mini survive intact while the suburban was crushed?  that would be funny actually

What?!?  How is it possible to live on this earth and not feel the least bit responsible for it's care?  Do you request styrofoam containers every chance you get?  Get every purchase double bagged with plastic and then toss it out the window on the way home?  Slam on the gas on every start in order to minimize gas mileage?  Change your own oil just so you can dump it down the storm drain?

I hope you do none of those things and just misspoke, but wow, what a claim!

[dragoncar]

and the safety bonus comes at the cost of obliterating the prius you collide with. 

I get your point from a humanitarian standpoint, but I follow the inverse when it comes to my family.  I care most about the people in MY vehicle.  Since there are a ton of SUVs, trucks, minivans, cars, etc. with moronic drivers Facebooking their way to oblivion instead of watching the road, I choose my vehicle more based on physics than ideals. 

Everyone has their own reasoning for the choices they make, and what's best for some isn't best for all.  We've lost loved ones in auto accidents (more than most families) and we don't drive as much as most people.  I've pulled people from the wreckage of horrific accidents.  Safety carries a lot more weight than MPG for us.  It might not seem rational in your world but that doesn't really matter. 

I don't expect everyone to agree with my choices, and I certainly have as much disdain for the vapid twats who drive their Escalades and Hummers simply for the image and pampering they think they "deserve" for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean that I'm automatically a jerk for choosing to own an SUV.

I didn't say SUV owners were jerks, just selfish.  And I admit that we all are selfish in different ways.

But consider the following analogy:

Parents who let their kids scream and throw food in a restaurant are selfish.  It bothers all the people around them and makes more work for the server.

I get your point from a humanitarian standpoint, but I follow the inverse when it comes to my family.  I care most about the people at MY table.  Since I'm tired after a long day of work, I don't have the energy to cook at home or keep my kids quiet.  Sure, it's more expensive to eat out, but I'm more interested in being able to relax a bit on MY off time than saving money.  It might not seem rational in your world but that doesn't really matter. 

no i meant feeling safe.  i realize it may not actually be safer, but it makes me feel safer.  and i get that a lot of people think SUVs are ridiculous, i personally do not.  its not illegal to own or operate one, so i don't see the big deal.  aside from if you are an environmentalist, which i am not, i don't see the big deal. 
also i couldn't see the picture, its blocked by my work.  did the mini survive intact while the suburban was crushed?  that would be funny actually

A lot of things that are legal are still antisocial -- see above analogy.

[Jamesqf]

I don't expect everyone to agree with my choices, and I certainly have as much disdain for the vapid twats who drive their Escalades and Hummers simply for the image and pampering they think they "deserve" for whatever reason, but that doesn't mean that I'm automatically a jerk for choosing to own an SUV.

Jerk, perhaps not, but gullible because you've bought into the false "SUVs are safer" meme.

[gimp]

I'd like to remind folks about the chart above.

SUVs are less safe, to both other people and your family than large sedans. Especially luxury sedans.

If I was spending (for example) $26K on a used car, and wanted ultimate safety, I'd buy a used BMW or Mercedes or Audi or whatever.

Because that's not just safer for others, but for your children as well.

I'll probably repeat this on the next page too... because I know people are emotional about their choices, but if even one person reads the studies, they'd see that there's a lot more to safety than simply having a lot of mass.

Oh, and speaking of mass, my buick is heavier than most SUVs built on sedan frames (as opposed to the heavier SUVs built on truck frames.) Another simple myth debunked, that SUVs keep you safer by being heavier.

[ace1224]

no i meant feeling safe.  i realize it may not actually be safer, but it makes me feel safer.  and i get that a lot of people think SUVs are ridiculous, i personally do not.  its not illegal to own or operate one, so i don't see the big deal.  aside from if you are an environmentalist, which i am not, i don't see the big deal. 
also i couldn't see the picture, its blocked by my work.  did the mini survive intact while the suburban was crushed?  that would be funny actually

What?!?  How is it possible to live on this earth and not feel the least bit responsible for it's care?  Do you request styrofoam containers every chance you get?  Get every purchase double bagged with plastic and then toss it out the window on the way home?  Slam on the gas on every start in order to minimize gas mileage?  Change your own oil just so you can dump it down the storm drain?

I hope you do none of those things and just misspoke, but wow, what a claim!

of course i don't do any of those things, i don't know anyone who does.  i just don't factor in being green in my day to day life, and any "green" choices i make are simply because it saves me money and or time, not because its environmentally friendly. 

[CanuckExpat]

I imagine a few posters in this thread doing this:


This is probably going to delve quickly into a safety/statistics argument, which depending on the study and how you look at the data, you can draw different conclusions:
"when broken down by size, compact cars have the highest occupant fatality rate while the “large vans” category has the lowest occupant fatality rate. Among vehicles that rolled over, midsize SUVs have the highest occupant fatality rate while large passenger cars have the lowest occupant fatality rate"
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809979.pdf

"Our main results are that sport utility vehicles (SUVs) are not necessarily safer for their drivers than cars; on average they are as risky as the average midsize or large car, and no safer than many of the most popular compact and subcompact models. Minivans and import luxury cars have the safest records. If combined risk is considered, most cars are safer than the average SUV, while pickup trucks are much less safe than all other types. Characteristics of the drivers of certain vehicle types probably have a strong effect on safety. For example, sports cars as driven are extremely risky for their drivers, who tend to be young males, and minivans are extremely safe for their drivers, very few of whom are young males"
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/assets/images/2002/Aug-26-2002/SUV-report.pdf

And most of this won't matter, because people who choose "safe" vehicles are usually more concerned more about what they feel is safe, as opposed to what might actually be safe (hint: marketers know this).

In the end, you have to remember that the individual driver makes the biggest difference. We can say all we want about big cars making you safe, but remember, pick-up trucks have the worst fatality rates of any vehicle type.. they just happen to be driven mainly by young males.

[Jamesqf]

My car is important to me.  I need to use it for my professional job.  I am starting my family, and will have several kids.  We drive cars until their death, so I plan on having this car for a long time.

So what does this have to do with your vehicle of choice being an SUV?   

As far as safety, I don't know the research out there...

So you're just going to ignore the evidence, and go with "everybody says"?

...but if you were given a choice of sitting in a large SUV or a small inexpensive sedan (and have a loved family member with you, i.e. infant), and then have the cars driven into each other at 60 miles per hour, I bet you would pick the SUV.

You'd lose the bet, because in a smaller, more nimble car there's a good chance I could maneuver to avoid the oncoming SUV, while the SUV trying the same thing would probably roll over.

(FWIW, I have actually done this: driving up a snowy mountain road in my Insight, I went into a hairpin curve to see an SUV which had spun out and was coming at me broadside to the road.  I was able to get as far right as possible - RH mirror was scraping snow - and the SUV missed my left side by a hand's breadth.  In a bigger vehicle, we would have crashed, probably with injury to me.)

Not every SUV driver is a jerk, aggressive and stupid driver...

No, but a heck of a lot of them seem to use their SUVs as an excuse for driving like that.  Of course they might drive the same way in smaller cars, but it's just not as noticable :-)

[CanuckExpat]

Background: Our family is getting ready to expand and in order to fit both car seats + dog + us + accessories (strollers, etc) we're looking to get a car w/a little more functional space than our 4-door sedan. Right now we're leaning towards getting a 2010 Prius w/about 30k miles on it for $15k. Our other possibilities, which we quickly renounced, included large SUVs (Chevy Traverse, Mazda CX-9, etc).

I wanted to give a shout-out to the OP. Reading your description, I would have assumed the multiple car seats, dogs, accessories etc. would be exactly the kind of thing that pushed people into larger van/truck/SUV thingies. I'm glad to hear you can make it work with the affordable, relatively ecological option.

We drive a Honda Fit between two people and a dog (mostly it stays parked), and it has been great, versatile and spacious, but I would have assumed with multiple car-seats, dogs, and strollers, space would be tight (not having personal experience myself), but I'm glad to hear it can be done.

he views the extra space in the SUV as a "quality of life" issue that is worth the extra $20-30k over 10 years. I suggested luggage rack. He poo-pooed that and said it's a pain to put a luggage rack on a car. I finally said, fine...you get an SUV when you have kids and I'll buy you dinner with the money I save.

We recently did a cross-country move/sojourn, we did decide to outfit the car with a luggage rack, storage pod, and hitch mounted bike rack for the trip to get some extra space. All told, it was probably less than $500 in accessories (thanks Craigslist), that made the trip easy, kept mileage reasonable, and when we are done they are now put away in storage and could probably be resold if we so wanted.
It looked quite sexy if I do say so myself:

[CanuckExpat]

I'm a bit confused, perhaps. Did people say they drive SUVs because they "feel safer" in them, even though there aren't any stats indicating SUVs are safer?

Objective vs. Subjective safety
"Objective safety can be described as the actual number or risk of road accidents or injuries, while subjective safety is the feeling or perception of safety, i.e. how people subjectively experience accident risk in traffic."
https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/Publikasjoner/TØI%20rapporter/2009/1009-2009/1009-2009-Sum.pdf

People argue about the former (objective safety) using stats and all that, but it is the latter (subjective safety) that influences decisions for a large number of people.
This also comes up as to why people feel biking is unsafe, even though statistics may tell you otherwise.
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2008/09/three-types-of-safety.html

[rocksinmyhead]

People argue about the former (objective safety) using stats and all that, but it is the latter (subjective safety) that influences decisions for a large number of people.

but as Mustashians, aren't we better than that shit?!? :)

I think we have bigger concerns than SUVs.  Here are 2 great articles.  I do not disagree that SUVs add to the problem, but people seem to put more energy into attacking their neighbor for driving an SUV than tackling substantially larger issues life factories and war.  Perhaps we should put our effort into turning off lights, lowering heat, passing laws that require stores to not keep the air conditioning on at insanely cold temperatures, and not going to war over oil.

right, there are things that would make a difference, but they are going to take a long time and a lot of effort by A LOT of people in order to change. not saying we don't try, just saying you can make a difference RIGHT NOW, TODAY by changing your personal habits (as you clearly know, because it sounds like you already do this in almost every other conceivable way, besides the SUV).

also, we go to war over oil because we're addicted to oil, and single-occupant SUV-driving is (at least one small) part of that problem. I'm all for trying to make a political difference, but IMHO fixing the underlying problem is going to be more helpful in the long run.

[Jamesqf]

also, we go to war over oil...

Sorry, but no.  We go to war over religion, or more precisely, because some people out there choose to follow a religion that commands them to attack & subjugate the infidel - that is, us among others.  Only reason oil is involved is that some of the money we pay for oil is used to buy the weapons they shoot at us.

[Eric]

also, we go to war over oil...

Sorry, but no.  We go to war over religion, or more precisely, because some people out there choose to follow a religion that commands them to attack & subjugate the infidel - that is, us among others.  Only reason oil is involved is that some of the money we pay for oil is used to buy the weapons they shoot at us.

This is a false dichotomy.  Do we decide to go to war only for oil?  Of course not.  Does oil that will be gained from war influence the decision?  Of course it does. 

[CanuckExpat]

People argue about the former (objective safety) using stats and all that, but it is the latter (subjective safety) that influences decisions for a large number of people.

but as Mustashians, aren't we better than that shit?!? :)

"Mustashians", whoever they are, and whatever that might mean, are still human. You tell me::

but at least if i hit something or someone hits me, i feel safer in my suv.

My car is important to me.  I need to use it for my professional job.  I am starting my family, and will have several kids.  We drive cars until their death, so I plan on having this car for a long time. 

As far as safety, I don't know the research out there, but if you were given a choice of sitting in a large SUV or a small inexpensive sedan (and have a loved family member with you, i.e. infant), and then have the cars driven into each other at 60 miles per hour, I bet you would pick the SUV. 

I care most about the people in MY vehicle.  Since there are a ton of SUVs, trucks, minivans, cars, etc. with moronic drivers Facebooking their way to oblivion instead of watching the road, I choose my vehicle more based on physics than ideals. 

Everyone has their own reasoning for the choices they make, and what's best for some isn't best for all.  We've lost loved ones in auto accidents (more than most families) and we don't drive as much as most people.  I've pulled people from the wreckage of horrific accidents.  Safety carries a lot more weight than MPG for us.  It might not seem rational in your world but that doesn't really matter. 

[rocksinmyhead]

also, we go to war over oil...

Sorry, but no.  We go to war over religion, or more precisely, because some people out there choose to follow a religion that commands them to attack & subjugate the infidel - that is, us among others.  Only reason oil is involved is that some of the money we pay for oil is used to buy the weapons they shoot at us.

This is a false dichotomy.  Do we decide to go to war only for oil?  Of course not.  Does oil that will be gained from war influence the decision?  Of course it does.

+1

obviously it's not like the US says "give us your oil!" and the other country says "NO!" and then we go to war over it, but I think it's absurd to say our (decreasing) reliance on oil imports has no bearing on US foreign policy decisions, including getting involved in conflicts. "go to war over oil" is kind of a silly sentence, but I was just responding to Everything in Moderation's comment so I thought I'd stick with her wording. I'm not even going to respond to the insinuation that following Islam invariably leads one to commit or condone violence against non-Muslims.

"Mustashians", whoever they are, and whatever that might mean, are still human. You tell me::

okay, I revise my statement to: "in general, I would guess that people who share the general philosophy espoused by this blog would aspire to base their spending decisions on reason and/or statistics, not emotion" :)

[starbuck]

My friend's husband wanted to get an Audi to replace their aging Honda, but when she found out she was pregnant she insisted on getting a shiny new Honda Pilot. Her comment when she was showing it to me? "I get respect on the road with this thing." Oy.

Kelly Kapoor from the Office - "I'm not going to be a mom schlepping my kids around in a minivan..... I want an SUV with THREE rows of seats."

[gimp]

In my time on the road, I found that nothing gets you respect like driving the shittiest, beat-up, pile of somehow-still-moving junk. Nobody wants to get near you when you have car parts scraping the road.

Actually, I take that back. That's #2.

#1 is military convoys. If you want respect, grab 30 of your friends and drive 30 humvees with 30 feet bumper-to-bumper.

[okashira]

This thread makes me sad.
"it makes me feel safe."

Making decisions, particularly after proven wrong, based on "feelings," is ultimate antimustacian.

[turboseize]

One thing to note: the safest cars (according to insurance statistics) are vintage/classic cars. Even though a lot of them do not even have seatbelts.

Why? Because they are driven seldom, and because their drivers know they are very likely to get killed in a crash. Wich is why they rather don't crash.


The biggest contributing factor to safety is the driver.

(That said, I gladly drive a car without anti-lock brakes or airbags, forcing me to drive more careful than the average driver, but I appreciate it's solid passenger cage, side impact protection and the well-designed crumple zones. I would probably feel much less secure in an old Japanese compact car or in an 1980s VW than a 1980s Saab or Volvo or Mercedes, knowing that in case of a crash my odds of survival would be close to zero in the 1980s Passat, but rather high in the Saab or Benz, even though the scarcity of accidents would render the difference in overall risk rather insignificant. So i do understand the concept of perceived safety, and plead guilty to succumbing to it. But I try to not srew it up too badly by choosing a vehicle that joins perceived with actual safety.)

[daverobev]

Off topic, but if you think the US went into Iraq not based on oil related stuff (Halliburton/Dick Cheney anyone?), I... yeah. No involvement in Africa, pretty much.

As a Brit, I think both Bush and Blair should be in prison for a long, long, long time. Not that Saddam was a saint, but holy crap.

I detest the "we don't support the war, but we do support our troops" nonsense; the way the whole military in the US works, all so that you can keep your 'gas' prices so low (yes folks: low). So the proles don't rise up.

Oh boy.

One thing I really wish is that people could talk things through, reasonably, and be reasoned with. I guess it's some part of us: to be deaf to certain things, not to think them through clearly, to change viewpoints.

I wish I could get into politics, but I am far too cynical (and sad, and angry), now.

/offtopic

[Mrs.FamilyFinances]

I don't understand the one about raising boys in a prius. Are they feminine cars?  I haven't seen pink sparkly glitter on any around here.

I think you will be happy with your purchase. People for some reason want extra room in cars, but it isn't really worth the added expense or waste of gas.

However, I feel like my minivan is very safe and love it! I have no clue how its safety compares to Prius. But to me, a minivan is only necessary when there are four kids or more.

If anybody does happen to see a pink sparkly glitter one, please let me know. That sounds delightful!

[Jamesqf]

This is a false dichotomy.  Do we decide to go to war only for oil?  Of course not.  Does oil that will be gained from war influence the decision?  Of course it does.

Might be, if the US had gained any significant amount of oil.  To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't.

I'm not even going to respond to the insinuation that following Islam invariably leads one to commit or condone violence against non-Muslims.

Insinuation?  No, it was a plain statement of fact: that is what the religion says to do.  Now of course not everyone who is labeled a Muslim follows the dictates of the faith with perfect exactitude, any more than most self-described Christians follow all the teachings of Jesus.  But those who do decide to attack the infidels are simply following the teachings of the Koran, and the example of the Prophet as recounted in the Hadith.

[ender]

I'm a 25 year old male and drive a white focus station wagon.

Haters gonna hate, but damn do I love that car.

[kms]

If I was spending (for example) $26K on a used car, and wanted ultimate safety, I'd buy a used BMW or Mercedes or Audi or whatever.

Absolutely agreed! A coworker of mine recently had a really bad accident driving a BMW 5 Series station wagon (like this one: http://img2.netcarshow.com/BMW-530d_Touring_2005_800x600_wallpaper_01.jpg) going around 120 mph (there's no speed limit in Germany). The car was totalled and smashed beyond recognition, it was really hard to imagine how anyone could've surived. Yet he walked away with just a dislocated shoulder, two broken ribs and a few bruises. In terms of safety, big luxury station wagons are the way to go. Combined with a Diesel engine you can still get between 40 and 50 mpg, European Diesel engines have become incredibly efficient in the past 10-15 years. A station wagon also offers much more capacity than a hatchback.

[jpo]

aside from if you are an environmentalist, which i am not, i don't see the big deal. 

Just like Ken Ilgunas, I don't think I'll ever understand this viewpoint.

http://www.kenilgunas.com/2012/10/day-21-ogre-and-leprechaun.html

[RootofGood]

Are SUVs really that much more spacious than large sedans?  I've ridden in enough SUVs that seemed pretty cramped in the back seat that I'm hesitant to get one.  And for cargo, most have a tiny sliver of space behind the last row of seats.  I think trunks in large sedans (or the back of a prius) can carry more cargo. 

For some reason, Mrs. RootofGood is stuck with the idea that she doesn't want a minivan or prius.  I'm not really sure why, but I imagine it is the perception of what those cars stand for (which is liberals?  tree huggers?  pansies? soccer moms?).  I look at the choice as "how can I optimize the present value of our next car purchase?". 

[ace1224]

aside from if you are an environmentalist, which i am not, i don't see the big deal. 

Just like Ken Ilgunas, I don't think I'll ever understand this viewpoint.

http://www.kenilgunas.com/2012/10/day-21-ogre-and-leprechaun.html

fair enough.  i don't think i'll ever understand the viewpoint of people who want to embark on journeys like that guy so its fine if people don't understand stuff about me

[prodarwin]

Are SUVs really that much more spacious than large sedans?  I've ridden in enough SUVs that seemed pretty cramped in the back seat that I'm hesitant to get one.  And for cargo, most have a tiny sliver of space behind the last row of seats.  I think trunks in large sedans (or the back of a prius) can carry more cargo. 

For some reason, Mrs. RootofGood is stuck with the idea that she doesn't want a minivan or prius.  I'm not really sure why, but I imagine it is the perception of what those cars stand for (which is liberals?  tree huggers?  pansies? soccer moms?).  I look at the choice as "how can I optimize the present value of our next car purchase?".

Ehh... they ARE more spacious, but is it necessary?  No.  People don't bring that much with them, or need to bring that much with them.  Besides, you can always plop a cargo carrier on top of a sedan for the 2x a year the whole family goes somewhere and brings enough that it won't fit in the trunk/hatch.

If interior space was truly a concern, a full-size van would be a far more practical choice.  About 15 years ago my family had a full-size van.  It still got terrible gas mileage like an SUV, but cost a fair amount less and could hold 2-3x the amount of stuff.  We used to take family trips... 2 parents, 2 kids, 2 dogs, food, clothes, mountain bikes, etc. for a week or two, while towing a 30ft camper (8000lb) behind us.

[rockstache]

aside from if you are an environmentalist, which i am not, i don't see the big deal. 

Just like Ken Ilgunas, I don't think I'll ever understand this viewpoint.

http://www.kenilgunas.com/2012/10/day-21-ogre-and-leprechaun.html

fair enough.  i don't think i'll ever understand the viewpoint of people who want to embark on journeys like that guy so its fine if people don't understand stuff about me

+1

I do not throw trash out the window as I drive down the highway or pour oil down the drain, but I do only have so much energy and effort to devote to "causes," and in my personal opinion, people are more important than things, so I prefer causes that feed the hungry or house the homeless. Obviously YMMV and I don't judge people that prefer to donate to animal shelters or saving the trees.

[Guses]

I think the best thing for everybody's safety would be to have big pointy spikes aiming straight at our heads so that the smallest bump or lurch would drive it in the driver's head.

I am sure that people would drive much more carefully with that incentive. No more fulgurous acceleration from a stop or last second braking. All would be smooth!

We have to stop driving like imbeciles to be safe. No amount of safety designs can fix stupid.


 

[AllChoptUp]

Minivans rule, especially with kids.  With an SUV you have to step up into them carrying the baby, balance on the doorjam to put baby in seat, then climb down only to climb back into the driver's seat.  And you probably smacked your head at least one time in the process.  Can be really rough if you've had a c-section or other stitches as a result of childbirth.  In a few months you'll be healed but baby gets heavier every day.

I'm tall and this drove me nuts.  Shorter women may really have problems here.

A minivan's door slides open (no worries about whacking the car next to you in a tight parking lot) and you have baby's seat at waist height.  Easy to strap them in, slide the door shut and sit in the driver's seat. 

Even my macho husband loves the minivan for kid transportation.

[PantsOnFire]

I'm a 25 year old male and drive a white focus station wagon.

Haters gonna hate, but damn do I love that car.

I was so pissed when they killed off the SW version.  I have a ZX3 which is great for getting groceries and whatnot, but I was always a bit jealous when I saw people pull up to triathlons with their road bikes fully inside their SWs. 

[ritchie70]

Are SUVs really that much more spacious than large sedans?  I've ridden in enough SUVs that seemed pretty cramped in the back seat that I'm hesitant to get one.  And for cargo, most have a tiny sliver of space behind the last row of seats.  I think trunks in large sedans (or the back of a prius) can carry more cargo. 

For some reason, Mrs. RootofGood is stuck with the idea that she doesn't want a minivan or prius.  I'm not really sure why, but I imagine it is the perception of what those cars stand for (which is liberals?  tree huggers?  pansies? soccer moms?).  I look at the choice as "how can I optimize the present value of our next car purchase?".

SUVs are pretty spacious, but unless you're going full-sized SUV (Suburban for example) there's more room in a minivan.

My wife and I both drive fairly normal-to-small cars ('07 Camry, '08 VW hatchback) but we rented a Chrysler or Dodge minivan a few times in the last couple years to go on vacation because babies have an incredible amount of crap.

We rented an SUV once (Nissan xTerra is what they gave us) and man was it tight compared to a minivan.

I think they don't want to seem like "soccer moms" in a minivan, but if it was free and cost of operation were the same or lower I'd take two. Those things are nice. Since they're not free, the economical thing to do seems to be rent it the couple times a year we want one rather than buying one.

[Jamesqf]

Are SUVs really that much more spacious than large sedans?  I've ridden in enough SUVs that seemed pretty cramped in the back seat that I'm hesitant to get one.  And for cargo, most have a tiny sliver of space behind the last row of seats.  I think trunks in large sedans (or the back of a prius) can carry more cargo.

The other side of this is comfort.  SUVs may have more space, but all those I've ridden in are uncomfortable as hell.  Big overstuffed seats that pretty much force you into a bolt-upright posture, no support, no room to properly stretch out your legs...  Give me a Lotus any day.

[RootofGood]

Are SUVs really that much more spacious than large sedans?  I've ridden in enough SUVs that seemed pretty cramped in the back seat that I'm hesitant to get one.  And for cargo, most have a tiny sliver of space behind the last row of seats.  I think trunks in large sedans (or the back of a prius) can carry more cargo.

The other side of this is comfort.  SUVs may have more space, but all those I've ridden in are uncomfortable as hell.  Big overstuffed seats that pretty much force you into a bolt-upright posture, no support, no room to properly stretch out your legs...  Give me a Lotus any day.

That's how I feel about SUVs too.  I drive a honda civic.  I'm no small guy and the seat fits me perfectly.  I don't slide side to side, I'm held in place. 

[RootofGood]

Are SUVs really that much more spacious than large sedans?  I've ridden in enough SUVs that seemed pretty cramped in the back seat that I'm hesitant to get one.  And for cargo, most have a tiny sliver of space behind the last row of seats.  I think trunks in large sedans (or the back of a prius) can carry more cargo. 

For some reason, Mrs. RootofGood is stuck with the idea that she doesn't want a minivan or prius.  I'm not really sure why, but I imagine it is the perception of what those cars stand for (which is liberals?  tree huggers?  pansies? soccer moms?).  I look at the choice as "how can I optimize the present value of our next car purchase?".

SUVs are pretty spacious, but unless you're going full-sized SUV (Suburban for example) there's more room in a minivan.

That was what I was getting at.  Unless you go big and get a full sized (super expensive super gas hog) SUV, you aren't getting any more room than a minivan. 

I think they don't want to seem like "soccer moms" in a minivan, but if it was free and cost of operation were the same or lower I'd take two. Those things are nice. Since they're not free, the economical thing to do seems to be rent it the couple times a year we want one rather than buying one.

We have 3 kids and do fine right now with our accord and civic.  But when my wife retires, we think we can swing cutting to 1 car.  I think it makes sense to replace the sedans with a minivan since we won't be driving that much anyway (so the gas savings for buying a compact car will be small).  And when we do drive, it will almost always be with the kids in tow. 

[Posthumane]

Every time I had the opportunity to use a small to medium sized SUV I was always bitterly disappointed with how little room they had inside and how little stuff they were able to carry due to their layouts. My friend's Chevy Blazer would hold about the same amount of stuff as my Ford Escort hatchback, despite using about twice the amount of fuel. Even the full size SUVs we have at work can't be configured to carry large items like you can do with a minivan by removing the seats.

[infogoon]

I think they don't want to seem like "soccer moms" in a minivan, but if it was free and cost of operation were the same or lower I'd take two. Those things are nice. Since they're not free, the economical thing to do seems to be rent it the couple times a year we want one rather than buying one.

I can't remember the last time I saw soccer moms driving minivans. I don't know why that stereotype sticks. They're all in SUVs around here.

The nice thing is that minivans are so incredibly unpopular they are far, far cheaper on the used market than just about anything else. I bought a Caravan this year with 50k miles on it for roughly a quarter of the original sticker price.

[Tetsuya Hondo]

I can't remember the last time I saw soccer moms driving minivans. I don't know why that stereotype sticks. They're all in SUVs around here.

Exactly. The SUV/CUV is the soccer mom-mobile of today, as minivans were in the 90s and wagons in the 80s.

And, now wagons are cool again...if you can find one.

[daverobev]

Are SUVs really that much more spacious than large sedans?  I've ridden in enough SUVs that seemed pretty cramped in the back seat that I'm hesitant to get one.  And for cargo, most have a tiny sliver of space behind the last row of seats.  I think trunks in large sedans (or the back of a prius) can carry more cargo.

The other side of this is comfort.  SUVs may have more space, but all those I've ridden in are uncomfortable as hell.  Big overstuffed seats that pretty much force you into a bolt-upright posture, no support, no room to properly stretch out your legs...  Give me a Lotus any day.

That's how I feel about SUVs too.  I drive a honda civic.  I'm no small guy and the seat fits me perfectly.  I don't slide side to side, I'm held in place.

Funny, I hate our Civic. I'm (only) 6', but it's just uncomfortable for me. Ours is a 2004 - yours?

[RetiredAt63]

If anybody does happen to see a pink sparkly glitter one, please let me know. That sounds delightful!

And think how visible you will be! No-one will rear-end your car  ;-)