Author Topic: The rich are to blame for climate change  (Read 12081 times)

maizefolk

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #150 on: April 14, 2021, 01:41:59 PM »
Things stop looking as rosy if you look at the whole picture.  We'll see if the covid telecommuting thing (which is certainly good for the environment) remains a thing in coming years.

I'm saying it's likely hopeless because of our previous track record regarding environmental issues.

GuitarStv, all things being equal, do you agree that emitting less carbon means less human suffering than emitting more?

Of course it's better.  As mentioned, there is a slight reduction of pressure on the gas pedal.

Nope, that's still the bus into the brick wall metaphor which does not match how climate change works. Less warming is better than more warming. Regardless of how much warming does happen it is still that case that more warming = more death and more human suffering than less. There is no brick wall.
 
Quote
Keeping things down to a 2 degree global rise in temperatures by 2100 would be a bad but manageable scenario.  Unfortunately, it seems to be unobtainable by most current estimates - it's the bare minimum change that can be expected.  4 degrees globally starts to look a little apocalyptic (https://www.carbonbrief.org/what-is-a-4c-world).  A 1.1 meter world wide rise in sea level coupled with “unprecedented heatwaves, severe drought and major floods in many regions”.  This impacts our ability to grow crops, damages harvests available through the ocean, increases the rate of species extinction that we're causing, it increases likelihood of pandemics, it significantly increases likelihood of war as people become more and more desperate.

Yes, I completely agree. 2 degrees is better than 4 degrees. 4 degrees is better than 6 degrees. And so on.

I agree, compromising our ability to grow food* means more wars, more revolutions, more refugees, more death and more human suffering. And yes more extinctions. The more disease I'm less convinced of, we seem to be doing a pretty good job of coming into contact with most animal populations through population growth with or without climate change, but let's give you that one too. The world is going to be a different and much worse place by 2050. We're already seeing it happening. More people are going hungry. More refugees.

Where I fear you are having a failure of imagination is that even "a little apocalyptic" is still better than "a lot apocalyptic". And if those are our two options for the future it is still worth fighting for the less apocalyptic one. Which is made an awful lot harder when people go around trying to argue that because we haven't changed "enough" there's no point and no hope in trying to change at all. If so let's all just party and live for the moment in the dying days of our civilization. Is that what you're doing? Going on flights around the world because it doesn't matter anyway? Buying a big house and running the AC with the windows open because there isn't any hope so live a little while you can? Why bother biking when you can drive? ... no? I'm guessing not based on what I know about you from our years on this forum. If not, I would argue you do still, personally, have hope that the future can be less bad than the worst it could be.

So why try to sabotage that personal hope I am guessing your actions still reflect by trying to convince strangers on the internet that the situation is hopeless?

*Did you know that the amount of photosynthetically active light reaching the ground is declining by about 2% per decade in some of the most agriculturally productive parts of the globe? It's fucking terrifying when you figure how hard it was already going to be to feed everyone expected to be in the world by 2050 without the fucking lights dimming (combination of more cloud cover and good old fashioned pollution).

the_gastropod

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #151 on: April 14, 2021, 01:52:56 PM »
Things stop looking as rosy if you look at the whole picture.  We'll see if the covid telecommuting thing (which is certainly good for the environment) remains a thing in coming years.

I'm saying it's likely hopeless because of our previous track record regarding environmental issues.

GuitarStv, all things being equal, do you agree that emitting less carbon means less human suffering than emitting more?

Of course it's better.  As mentioned, there is a slight reduction of pressure on the gas pedal.

Nope, that's still the bus into the brick wall metaphor which does not match how climate change works. Less warming is better than more warming. Regardless of how much warming does happen it is still that case that more warming = more death and more human suffering than less. There is no brick wall.
 
Quote
Keeping things down to a 2 degree global rise in temperatures by 2100 would be a bad but manageable scenario.  Unfortunately, it seems to be unobtainable by most current estimates - it's the bare minimum change that can be expected.  4 degrees globally starts to look a little apocalyptic (https://www.carbonbrief.org/what-is-a-4c-world).  A 1.1 meter world wide rise in sea level coupled with “unprecedented heatwaves, severe drought and major floods in many regions”.  This impacts our ability to grow crops, damages harvests available through the ocean, increases the rate of species extinction that we're causing, it increases likelihood of pandemics, it significantly increases likelihood of war as people become more and more desperate.

Yes, I completely agree. 2 degrees is better than 4 degrees. 4 degrees is better than 6 degrees. And so on.

I agree, compromising our ability to grow food* means more wars, more revolutions, more refugees, more death and more human suffering. And yes more extinctions. The more disease I'm less convinced of, we seem to be doing a pretty good job of coming into contact with most animal populations through population growth with or without climate change, but let's give you that one too. The world is going to be a different and much worse place by 2050. We're already seeing it happening. More people are going hungry. More refugees.

Where I fear you are having a failure of imagination is that even "a little apocalyptic" is still better than "a lot apocalyptic". And if those are our two options for the future it is still worth fighting for the less apocalyptic one. Which is made an awful lot harder when people go around trying to argue that because we haven't changed "enough" there's no point and no hope in trying to change at all. If so let's all just party and live for the moment in the dying days of our civilization. Is that what you're doing? Going on flights around the world because it doesn't matter anyway? Buying a big house and running the AC with the windows open because there isn't any hope so live a little while you can? Why bother biking when you can drive? ... no? I'm guessing not based on what I know about you from our years on this forum. If not, I would argue you do still, personally, have hope that the future can be less bad than the worst it could be.

So why try to sabotage that personal hope I am guessing your actions still reflect by trying to convince strangers on the internet that the situation is hopeless?

*Did you know that the amount of photosynthetically active light reaching the ground is declining by about 2% per decade in some of the most agriculturally productive parts of the globe? It's fucking terrifying when you figure how hard it was already going to be to feed everyone expected to be in the world by 2050 without the fucking lights dimming (combination of more cloud cover and good old fashioned pollution).

I think one of the difficult things about talking about this is that, just as some humans are disproportionately responsible for this conundrum, the effects also will disproportionately be felt by those least responsible for creating the problem. So while a 4 degree increase is not as bad as a 6 degree rise, globally speaking, it is not too far from the bus / brick wall analogy for the global south. Those of us in positions to do something aren't taking it nearly seriously enough in part because we coincidentally won't be the first to feel the most dramatic effects.

maizefolk

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #152 on: April 14, 2021, 01:55:00 PM »
I think one of the difficult things about talking about this is that, just as some humans are disproportionately responsible for this conundrum, the effects also will disproportionately be felt by those least responsible for creating the problem. So while a 4 degree increase is not as bad as a 6 degree rise, globally speaking, it is not too far from the bus / brick wall analogy for the global south. Those of us in positions to do something aren't taking it nearly seriously enough.

That's a valid point. But if the problem is that we're not taking the problem seriously enough, I guarantee telling folks that the situation hopeless and nothing we do is going to change the outcome at all is the path to less action, not more.

GuitarStv

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #153 on: April 14, 2021, 01:58:13 PM »
I concede completely.

'A little apocalyptic' is certainly better than 'very apocalyptic', just as paraplegic is better than quadriplegic.  That bitterly optimistic part of me just wants to keep all my limbs though, and can't process why that's not true of others.  :P

Part of the problem is that I was pretty optimistic on climate change 20 years ago and then watched us squander opportunity after opportunity and progressively worsen things (and that was when intelligent people weren't pretending that there was a debate to be had about measurable reality).  Data keeps rolling in though, and it's all been worse than I'd like to see.

Onward hope!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 01:59:55 PM by GuitarStv »

Cool Friend

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #154 on: April 14, 2021, 02:05:06 PM »
You can lead an ass to info, but you can't make him think.

Either you are getting your wires crossed or you are deliberately (and falsely) misrepresenting what people have said, including me.

It's almost as if some people in this thread are arguing in bad faith.


I'm assuming these comments are directed to Roland.  You might not agree with his viewpoint, but I feel you're being inappropriate, as if he's trolling or the like.

He is, and he does this in nearly every discussion he participates in. He lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago, and I have no idea why he's still tolerated here.

joe189man

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2021, 02:28:38 PM »
So the Rich and corporations are to blame, now what? How do we move the entire industrialized world to renewables, electric and increases in energy efficiency? I think we have to all move together or it wont make a difference. Me buying a Bolt and an energy efficient furnace/water heater is only going to cost me money and not make a big impact.  I think it could be done, a world wide coordinated effort to combat climate change, but at least in the USA we are too distracted with many other in your face problem to stomach facing this hard to comprehend challenge. Maybe Kamala can rally the troops in a few years

We are going to need a lot more mining to source all of the rare earth minerals and lithium necessary for all the batteries, just another consideration.


Laura33

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #156 on: April 14, 2021, 02:41:24 PM »
I'm saying it's likely hopeless because of our previous track record regarding environmental issues.

What track record are you talking about?  By any objective measure, the US has made tremendous progress on environmental issues over the past 50 years.  50 years ago the idea of a federal agency to manage pollution was absolutely novel and viewed as a major imposition on states' rights.  We had almost no national environmental laws.  In the late '60s, we had DDT and the Cuyahoga River; in the '70s, we had Love Canal and lead in gasoline and asbestos; in the '80s, we had Bhopal and the ozone hole. 

We now have a Clean Air Act, a Clean Water Act, a hazardous waste law, a hazardous material cleanup law, a toxic substances law, a pesticides registration law, and many many others.  And the requirements keep expanding and getting tougher.  When I started practicing in the early 1990s, the environmental regulations took up a couple of linear feet on my bookshelf.  Now I don't even have room for them all (but luckily no longer need to, because I can access them online).  The amount of resources that major companies devote to environmental compliance is quite significant -- and that doesn't even count things like investments in alternative energy sources and other voluntary measures or business plans.   

Is it perfect?  Absolutely not.  But I see absolutely no scenario under which anyone could reasonably claim that we have a horrible track record on environmental protection in general. 

nereo

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #157 on: April 14, 2021, 02:42:25 PM »
So the Rich and corporations are to blame, now what? How do we move the entire industrialized world to renewables, electric and increases in energy efficiency? I think we have to all move together or it wont make a difference. Me buying a Bolt and an energy efficient furnace/water heater is only going to cost me money and not make a big impact.  I think it could be done, a world wide coordinated effort to combat climate change, but at least in the USA we are too distracted with many other in your face problem to stomach facing this hard to comprehend challenge. Maybe Kamala can rally the troops in a few years


A carbon exchange market would certainly create the economic push to do what you suggest.  Absent that, increased regulation (top-down) typically has a much larger impact than grass-roots (bottom-up) approaches when dealing with a system where all players need to move together (or at least in the same direction), though it's most effective when both approaches occur concurrently.

examples abound: stricter fuel efficiency standards, carbon tax, monetary incentives for reducing or eliminating ones carbon footprint, funding for green R&D, prohibitions on the worst polluting technologies, etc.

maizefolk

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2021, 03:08:48 PM »
I concede completely.

'A little apocalyptic' is certainly better than 'very apocalyptic', just as paraplegic is better than quadriplegic.  That bitterly optimistic part of me just wants to keep all my limbs though, and can't process why that's not true of others.  :P

Part of the problem is that I was pretty optimistic on climate change 20 years ago and then watched us squander opportunity after opportunity and progressively worsen things (and that was when intelligent people weren't pretending that there was a debate to be had about measurable reality).  Data keeps rolling in though, and it's all been worse than I'd like to see.

Onward hope!

I appreciate it.

This seems an analogy fraught with danger of giving offense, but just to explain my reaction, I've spent years coming to peace with the fact that the later part of my life and the lives of those who come after me will likely be lived as (to use the analogy) a paraplegic while still trying to fight the good fight against giving in an accepting quadriplegia as inevitable. So when it sounds like people are minimizing the difference between having two working limbs and none, it gets to me. Appreciate the discussion.

As you say. Onward.


PDXTabs

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #159 on: April 14, 2021, 03:29:32 PM »
Interesting article in the WSJ about this today. Behind a paywall so I won’t reproduce the whole thing but

Quote
/A bigger moment of truth will come with a book by Steven Koonin, a theoretical physicist and chief scientist of the Obama Energy Department, demonstrating what the science—the plain, recognized, consensus science—says about climate change: It won’t be catastrophic. It’s unlikely to be influenced in a major way by policy actions. The costs will be large in relation to everything except the future, richer economy that will easily pay for them.

The jist of the article is basically that:

Quote
A drumroll moment was Zeke Hausfather and Glen Peter’s 2020 article in the journal Nature partly headlined: “Stop using the worst-case scenario for climate warming as the most likely outcome.”

We’re not in a bus speeding towards a brick wall. And standing on the metaphorical street corner screaming that we are is hysterical and not productive.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/climate-media-vs-climate-science-11618355224?mod=opinion_featst_pos2

I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #160 on: April 14, 2021, 05:10:59 PM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism. See the covid response where we initially saw projections of more than a million Americans dead. It was off by a factor of 2.

I'm not overly concerned with climate change. The earth is a self levelling little biosphere, and it is hardy far beyond the ability of humankind to intervene. The biosphere will be fine. Of course, humanity might suffer a hit, but it's hardly a situation that's attributable to any one person, and we each will bear collective responsibility (and the collective fallout). The to the extent that the rich are responsible for producing greenhouse gases, the rich are also responsible for most of the climate change research and efforts to mitigate it, so I think they've paid their dues. The rest of us can take whatever collective action we feel like. Again, the biosphere will survive even if humanity doesn't, so I'm pretty sanguine. (And I think humanity will more than survive.)



maizefolk

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #161 on: April 14, 2021, 05:36:20 PM »
Some more reasons for (relative) optimism, or at least not-complete-hopelessness. LBL recently put out a report comparing how the US energy grid of 2020 compares to the grid we were expecting to have in 2020 when people were making projections back in 2005.

  • The US as a whole consumes 20% less power than people thought we would by now when the 2005 report was written. This is thanks in significant part to larger than expected increases in efficiency.*
  • We generate 13x more power from wind and solar today than people in 2005 were expecting that we would.
  • As a result, our electrical grid emits only half as much carbon dioxide in 2020 as it was projected to produce by, and only 60% as carbon much as it did back in 2005.
  • The report estimates that to get our grid to 90% non-carbon dioxide emitting sources by 2035, we need to install 1.1 terawatts of renewables. If we just install at the same pace as 2020 for the next 15 years (so no further growth in the speed of adoption) we'll hit half that number.

TL;DR We're a lot closer to being on track than anyone was expecting we were going to be just 15 years ago looking forward to the world we live in today. Not an excuse to declare victory and do nothing, but neither is it an excuse to declare defeat and do nothing.

*The earliest price estimate I can find for LED bulbs was three years after the original report came out when they were 30 bucks a bulb. Now you can buy them in bulk for less than a dollar a bulb.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #162 on: April 14, 2021, 06:20:56 PM »
Some more reasons for (relative) optimism, or at least not-complete-hopelessness. LBL recently put out a report comparing how the US energy grid of 2020 compares to the grid we were expecting to have in 2020 when people were making projections back in 2005.

  • The US as a whole consumes 20% less power than people thought we would by now when the 2005 report was written. This is thanks in significant part to larger than expected increases in efficiency.*
  • We generate 13x more power from wind and solar today than people in 2005 were expecting that we would.
  • As a result, our electrical grid emits only half as much carbon dioxide in 2020 as it was projected to produce by, and only 60% as carbon much as it did back in 2005.
  • The report estimates that to get our grid to 90% non-carbon dioxide emitting sources by 2035, we need to install 1.1 terawatts of renewables. If we just install at the same pace as 2020 for the next 15 years (so no further growth in the speed of adoption) we'll hit half that number.

TL;DR We're a lot closer to being on track than anyone was expecting we were going to be just 15 years ago looking forward to the world we live in today. Not an excuse to declare victory and do nothing, but neither is it an excuse to declare defeat and do nothing.

*The earliest price estimate I can find for LED bulbs was three years after the original report came out when they were 30 bucks a bulb. Now you can buy them in bulk for less than a dollar a bulb.

We are no where close to being on track. By 2050 it is said we need to be carbon neutral. Not just reduction on a massive scale, but net zero.

We can't just EV car our way out of this or have fewer kids or rely on wind and solar.

The entire transportation sector (including shipping delivering goods), agriculture, and construction need to massively change the way they operate.

barring some major tech breakthrough like mentioned above with sucking out emissions we are doomed. That's not even mentioning the fact that the US one of the largest contributors still can't come to a consensus nor do we have a functioning govt or will of the people in mass to make a dent.

Again, I sound like a broken record, but Bill Gates' new climate book was eye opening. He's still hopeful but man I just don't see humans around the globe getting it done.

I mean we won't see Earth become Venus in our kids lifetime, but the amount of migration and wars that will break out in the next 50 yrs, yikes. Those who have money will mostly be fine, sorry poors.

maizefolk

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #163 on: April 14, 2021, 06:34:20 PM »
We are no where close to being on track. By 2050 it is said we need to be carbon neutral. Not just reduction on a massive scale, but net zero. ... barring some major tech breakthrough like mentioned above with sucking out emissions we are doomed. ... I mean we won't see Earth become Venus in our kids lifetime, but the amount of migration and wars that will break out in the next 50 yrs, yikes.

To me it sounds like you're falling into the same trap of seeing climate change as a binary rather than a continuum: doomed or not doomed.

I complete agree, not even the next 50 years, but the next 20-30 are likely to see resource wars and mass migrations and vast amounts of human suffering on a scale none of us can really imagine. I wish that weren't the case. But realistically even if all carbon dioxide emission stopped tomorrow, enough warming is baked in and the wheels are already wobbling if not already starting to come off of our agricultural systems.

I have said it before and I am just going to keep saying it: less emissions are better than more emissions. Less emissions = less human suffering. There is no one number we need to hit where, if we don't, the cuts don't help and we're all doomed.

Whatever trajectory we're on, if we do less, the future will be even worse, and if we do more, the future will be less bad than it otherwise would be.

Do you disagree with any of the above?

Abe

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #164 on: April 14, 2021, 07:15:45 PM »
I think if we just continue on our course and don't take sufficient action, we will eventually get punished with regards to favorable trade status, etc. Other countries may see our country's laziness as willful negligence and decide to apply carbon tariffs on our exports, for example. Right now that's not possible because we are such a large trading partner. I could foresee that happening in a few decades if China shifts course and becomes carbon neutral (they're much farther off than us right now, but an authoritarian state can just force that change if it wants, once technology allows it).

Interestingly, to plateau at a 2.0C difference from pre-industrial levels, we would need to be carbon-neutral by around 2070. The differences in temperature and precipitation are moderate outside of the tropics (precipitation) and polar regions (temperature), but there is an exponential increase in severe heat waves throughout the globe at this level.  The Mediterranean and Africa will be hit hardest with droughts in either scenario, but suffer disproportionately more at 2.0C than other regions. Point being, the effects on general geophysical trends are linear with temperature increase, while the probability of outlier events (severe rainfall, severe drought) increases exponentially. If we overshoot 2C, our descendants are in deep trouble.
Source: https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/sites/2/2019/06/SR15_Chapter3_Low_Res.pdf


nereo

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #165 on: April 14, 2021, 07:16:35 PM »
I find this pervasive belief that we need some great technological breakthrough in order to combat the worst of climate change to be both wrong and counter-productive.  We have the tools at our disposal both to massively curb emissions as well as to (start) sequestering carbon.  Will it’s implementation be incredibly expensive, complicated to implement and disruptive? Absolutely -  but business as usual will be even worse

But this “great technological breakthrough” hope encourages inaction and ultimately more damage.  Rather than use the already effective tools in our arsenal (combined with ones that are close to being scale-ready) it becomes an excuse to do nothing in the hope that something better will be invented that will be lower cost and more effective.

 

Peaksandvalleys

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #166 on: April 14, 2021, 10:58:40 PM »
I find this pervasive belief that we need some great technological breakthrough in order to combat the worst of climate change to be both wrong and counter-productive.  We have the tools at our disposal both to massively curb emissions as well as to (start) sequestering carbon.  Will it’s implementation be incredibly expensive, complicated to implement and disruptive? Absolutely -  but business as usual will be even worse

But this “great technological breakthrough” hope encourages inaction and ultimately more damage.  Rather than use the already effective tools in our arsenal (combined with ones that are close to being scale-ready) it becomes an excuse to do nothing in the hope that something better will be invented that will be lower cost and more effective.

Energy storage technologies are the most important developing field for a truly clean grid and are not yet available on the required scale. Once energy storage becomes more efficient and economically viable then we will be able to harness zero emission energy sources in a more usable manner.

You seem to think we have done nothing despite multiple posts above demonstrating the progress of the past 15 years implementing renewable energy sources. Renewables are being implemented, breakthroughs in energy storage are going to make a massive difference.

Agree that continued expansion of those sources of energy is important. Im also pro-nuclear; zero carbon energy source which can function with the reliability required for the base of the power grid.

Peaksandvalleys

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #167 on: April 14, 2021, 11:16:28 PM »
Some more reasons for (relative) optimism, or at least not-complete-hopelessness. LBL recently put out a report comparing how the US energy grid of 2020 compares to the grid we were expecting to have in 2020 when people were making projections back in 2005.

  • The US as a whole consumes 20% less power than people thought we would by now when the 2005 report was written. This is thanks in significant part to larger than expected increases in efficiency.*
  • We generate 13x more power from wind and solar today than people in 2005 were expecting that we would.
  • As a result, our electrical grid emits only half as much carbon dioxide in 2020 as it was projected to produce by, and only 60% as carbon much as it did back in 2005.
  • The report estimates that to get our grid to 90% non-carbon dioxide emitting sources by 2035, we need to install 1.1 terawatts of renewables. If we just install at the same pace as 2020 for the next 15 years (so no further growth in the speed of adoption) we'll hit half that number.

TL;DR We're a lot closer to being on track than anyone was expecting we were going to be just 15 years ago looking forward to the world we live in today. Not an excuse to declare victory and do nothing, but neither is it an excuse to declare defeat and do nothing.

*The earliest price estimate I can find for LED bulbs was three years after the original report came out when they were 30 bucks a bulb. Now you can buy them in bulk for less than a dollar a bulb.

We are no where close to being on track. By 2050 it is said we need to be carbon neutral. Not just reduction on a massive scale, but net zero.

We can't just EV car our way out of this or have fewer kids or rely on wind and solar.

The entire transportation sector (including shipping delivering goods), agriculture, and construction need to massively change the way they operate.

barring some major tech breakthrough like mentioned above with sucking out emissions we are doomed. That's not even mentioning the fact that the US one of the largest contributors still can't come to a consensus nor do we have a functioning govt or will of the people in mass to make a dent.

Again, I sound like a broken record, but Bill Gates' new climate book was eye opening. He's still hopeful but man I just don't see humans around the globe getting it done.

I mean we won't see Earth become Venus in our kids lifetime, but the amount of migration and wars that will break out in the next 50 yrs, yikes. Those who have money will mostly be fine, sorry poors.


We already have made a dent, alarmism is not productive.

The latest data from the Paris Climate Meeting this year indicates an estimated 2.7-3.1C rise by 2100 from pre-industrial levels with current policies, much improved from the 3.5C estimate from just 6 years ago in 2015. Yes this is still short of the initial goal set of 2C, however I think there is reason to be optimistic that energy storage technologies will accelerate us closer to that goal and increase the rate of renewable adoption.

Currently the biggest unknown in the climate debate is not whether or not the US will pick up the pace with emissions reduction. The biggest unknowns are what kind of an impact will developing nations (Brazil with deforestation, Russia with its utter neglect of the problem, etc.) have on the curve as they begin to make up a greater and greater portion of the pie.

Ultimately, there needs to be thoughtful consideration as to how to most humanely adapt to the inevitable changing climate. Much discussion is had regarding large scale controversial policies which may alter our course by 0.1C in the next 80 years. There is not nearly enough discussion about what infrastructure and developments need to take place in impoverished areas to allow people to successfully adapt.

namasteyall

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #168 on: April 14, 2021, 11:48:21 PM »
It isn't the rich, it is people having more than a sustainable amount of children (which is something like 2, maybe 3 at most)

Every child creates a shit ton of greenhouse gases during their lifetime.  A condom could be the greatest green invention ever.

It is the rich/well off AND their kids. Even ONE poor US kid uses far more resources than a well off child elsewhere. This could be changed easily by living well and consuming less. Agreed re population control is vital and also no one should coax unsuitable people into having kids....

namasteyall

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #169 on: April 15, 2021, 12:01:38 AM »
?? How does that matter?

Society needs a certain number of workers to develop and maintain the system to a level where you can actually have a discussion about things like climate change instead of having a discussion about which hunters are going out from the cave today to kill a elk.

Society invests a lot of resources into a baby/child/teen/young adult with school and social services, expecting that person will return a positive benefit....

The US get a lot of really well educated workers/taxpayers from, say, India, where their higher education is usually highly govt subsidized.

nereo

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #170 on: April 15, 2021, 05:44:23 AM »
I find this pervasive belief that we need some great technological breakthrough in order to combat the worst of climate change to be both wrong and counter-productive.  We have the tools at our disposal both to massively curb emissions as well as to (start) sequestering carbon.  Will it’s implementation be incredibly expensive, complicated to implement and disruptive? Absolutely -  but business as usual will be even worse

But this “great technological breakthrough” hope encourages inaction and ultimately more damage.  Rather than use the already effective tools in our arsenal (combined with ones that are close to being scale-ready) it becomes an excuse to do nothing in the hope that something better will be invented that will be lower cost and more effective.

Energy storage technologies are the most important developing field for a truly clean grid and are not yet available on the required scale. Once energy storage becomes more efficient and economically viable then we will be able to harness zero emission energy sources in a more usable manner.

You seem to think we have done nothing despite multiple posts above demonstrating the progress of the past 15 years implementing renewable energy sources. Renewables are being implemented, breakthroughs in energy storage are going to make a massive difference.

Agree that continued expansion of those sources of energy is important. Im also pro-nuclear; zero carbon energy source which can function with the reliability required for the base of the power grid.

Continued development of greener technology is incredibly important, I have no arguments there. What I am saying though is that ‘emerging/future tech’ is often used as an excuse not to move forward in a very big way right now on multiple fronts, often in the hopes that something cheaper and better will come along and the magic of technology will save us from having to make these large investments and very tough choices.

We don’t need any further technological leaps to:
Build net-zero energy homes and buildings
Retrofit/replace existing inefficient buildings
Massively expand charging infrastructure
Raise the gas tax (repeatedly)
Set up a carbon market
Remove cars from urban centers
Incentivize the heck out of carpooling, telecommuting etc.
Re-think minimum lot size and square footage regulations
Accelerate construction of renewable energy sources
Shut-down the highest emitting power sources
Improve broadband
Raise fuel standards (including on light trucks)
Support/fund education, health care and anti-poverty measures in developing nations

..and that’s just some of the most obvious, low-hanging fruit for scaling back our footprint. We need to do those now, en masse, and before we worry about higher-density large-scale energy storage or carbon capture and sequestration technologies that are still bench-scale. We need those too, but to paraphrase another poster, we haven’t even shut the water off, and that’s the most straightforward problem to solve.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #171 on: April 15, 2021, 07:00:20 AM »
It would be easier just to incentivise having fewer children, perhaps by taxing subsequent children or giving cash rewards to those who forego children.

jehovasfitness23

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #172 on: April 15, 2021, 07:03:20 AM »
We are no where close to being on track. By 2050 it is said we need to be carbon neutral. Not just reduction on a massive scale, but net zero. ... barring some major tech breakthrough like mentioned above with sucking out emissions we are doomed. ... I mean we won't see Earth become Venus in our kids lifetime, but the amount of migration and wars that will break out in the next 50 yrs, yikes.

To me it sounds like you're falling into the same trap of seeing climate change as a binary rather than a continuum: doomed or not doomed.



Do you disagree with any of the above?

I can get on board with that. I just don't think we'll get anywhere close to the change we need to stave off mass casualties and hardships for those that survive.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #173 on: April 15, 2021, 07:55:34 AM »
It would be easier just to incentivise having fewer children, perhaps by taxing subsequent children or giving cash rewards to those who forego children.

We do the opposite of that in the USA though with the child tax credits.

Although compared to daycare costs I guess it is a drop in the bucket so maybe there is some disincentive already in place, at least for working parents who would need to fund daycare.

Those who think I am a troll...such a weak argument.  Just because someone has a different opinion on a issue doesn't automatically make them a troll.   Do you really want a forum where everyone just agrees with everything you say?   Are you Kim Jong-un?

I did mess up when I said the rich are not the problem, I should have said the rich are the problem but it is greatly compounded by the rapidly increasing global population.  I still contend (and I don't think it is trolling) that it is human nature to strive for more comforts and to look at what others have and also want that for yourself.   I do not think we are that far above the monkey cucumber studies and it is hubris to think we are.

If this is trolling though, I will bow out and let the 99% of you continue to pat each other on the back for your well thought out same sided discussions.

Laura33

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #174 on: April 15, 2021, 08:03:57 AM »
I find this pervasive belief that we need some great technological breakthrough in order to combat the worst of climate change to be both wrong and counter-productive.  We have the tools at our disposal both to massively curb emissions as well as to (start) sequestering carbon.  Will it’s implementation be incredibly expensive, complicated to implement and disruptive? Absolutely -  but business as usual will be even worse

But this “great technological breakthrough” hope encourages inaction and ultimately more damage.  Rather than use the already effective tools in our arsenal (combined with ones that are close to being scale-ready) it becomes an excuse to do nothing in the hope that something better will be invented that will be lower cost and more effective.

Energy storage technologies are the most important developing field for a truly clean grid and are not yet available on the required scale. Once energy storage becomes more efficient and economically viable then we will be able to harness zero emission energy sources in a more usable manner.

You seem to think we have done nothing despite multiple posts above demonstrating the progress of the past 15 years implementing renewable energy sources. Renewables are being implemented, breakthroughs in energy storage are going to make a massive difference.

Agree that continued expansion of those sources of energy is important. Im also pro-nuclear; zero carbon energy source which can function with the reliability required for the base of the power grid.

Continued development of greener technology is incredibly important, I have no arguments there. What I am saying though is that ‘emerging/future tech’ is often used as an excuse not to move forward in a very big way right now on multiple fronts, often in the hopes that something cheaper and better will come along and the magic of technology will save us from having to make these large investments and very tough choices.

We don’t need any further technological leaps to:
Build net-zero energy homes and buildings
Retrofit/replace existing inefficient buildings
Massively expand charging infrastructure
Raise the gas tax (repeatedly)
Set up a carbon market
Remove cars from urban centers
Incentivize the heck out of carpooling, telecommuting etc.
Re-think minimum lot size and square footage regulations
Accelerate construction of renewable energy sources
Shut-down the highest emitting power sources
Improve broadband
Raise fuel standards (including on light trucks)
Support/fund education, health care and anti-poverty measures in developing nations

..and that’s just some of the most obvious, low-hanging fruit for scaling back our footprint. We need to do those now, en masse, and before we worry about higher-density large-scale energy storage or carbon capture and sequestration technologies that are still bench-scale. We need those too, but to paraphrase another poster, we haven’t even shut the water off, and that’s the most straightforward problem to solve.

There's a big difference between available and feasible.  Even if we had political will, each of those actions entails its own costs and unanticipated consequences. 

- My city could ban cars downtown tomorrow.  And the result would be everything would shut down, because the city does not have the mass transit capability right now to meet those needs.  Where is it going to get the money to buy all those extra buses?  We've been futzing with a subway for decades, and we can't even afford one additional line -- and now we have even less money available because tax receipts are down (hello pandemic) and expenses are up (again: pandemic).  It would take literally billions of dollars of investment that we don't have to create the infrastruction required to support a functioning city and keep downtown in business.

- Retrofit or tear down inefficient buildings?  That's almost every building where I live.  Easily trillions of dollars.  Who pays?

- Shut down power sources?  In my area, we get rolling brownouts in the summer already.  If you decrease supply, you increase the risk of taking the whole grid down.  At a minimum, you raise rates significantly -- which is good, as it will provide a natural incentive to reduce demand.  But that incentive hurts poor people the most.  We already have older people who die every summer and winter because they can't afford to keep the power on and freeze or overheat.  So you'd need to combine that with a very serious subsidy program for the poor -- so, again, more money.  Oh:  and what happens to that coal when you shut down the US-based coal-fired power plants?  It goes to China and other developing countries, where it is burned in much less sophisticated power plants and emits even more pollution.  If we're going to address a global problem, sending the bad stuff to somewhere where it will be even worse doesn't help.  It just makes us feel better because we don't have to look at it any more.

- Reduce lot sizes?  I would love that.  But that is a local issue:  every single county has independent authority to make its own rules.  And the rich counties where that would do the most good are the ones where every single resident will vote out anyone who advocates that kind of change, because "property values."

- Net-zero building codes?  I would love this too -- it always works better when you can design something properly from the beginning.  But that's going to dramatically increase housing costs.  Now, that may well be a feature instead of a bug, because it will require smaller builds and keep people in smaller rentals for longer.  But that's also why it won't happen as long as people have the authority to vote out the local politicians who would push for that solution.

All of this underscores why individual decisions matter so much.  It's not about whether one person deciding not to use straws will fix climate change.  It's more about whether that same person will vote for politicians who will push for those kinds of programs, instead of punishing them for doing so. 

You're not a fan of the technological "magic bullet" -- nor am I.  But I am also not a fan of "we just need to do XYZ" arguments, when our entire political and economic system means that those actions are largely non-starters.  All that does is shift responsibility to those unnamed Others who refuse to make such obvious changes, which again makes us feel better about ourselves without actually accomplishing anything.

maizefolk

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #175 on: April 15, 2021, 08:22:21 AM »
In the US at least we are already shutting down a lot of our highest emitting power sources. In 2014 we were generating 1,581 gigawatt hours of electricity from coal. In six years (by 2020) we cut that to 774 gigawatt hours, a 51% decline. So for that one potential big structural change using existing technology from nereo's list, we know it is technologically, economically, and politically feasible, because we're already doing it.

And yes I know someone is going to jump in to explain that we're not doing it fast enough to hit whatever they've decided is the line of doom beyond which nothing matters. I don't care. We're changing much faster than I ever thought would be technologically, economically, and politically feasible at any point in my adult life, and it's still going to reduce human suffering and misery relative to the counterfactual scenario where we gave up because we didn't think any change was technologically, economically, and politically feasible.

Davnasty

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #176 on: April 15, 2021, 08:35:11 AM »
It would be easier just to incentivise having fewer children, perhaps by taxing subsequent children or giving cash rewards to those who forego children.

We do the opposite of that in the USA though with the child tax credits.

Although compared to daycare costs I guess it is a drop in the bucket so maybe there is some disincentive already in place, at least for working parents who would need to fund daycare.

Those who think I am a troll...such a weak argument.  Just because someone has a different opinion on a issue doesn't automatically make them a troll.   Do you really want a forum where everyone just agrees with everything you say?   Are you Kim Jong-un?

I did mess up when I said the rich are not the problem, I should have said the rich are the problem but it is greatly compounded by the rapidly increasing global population.  I still contend (and I don't think it is trolling) that it is human nature to strive for more comforts and to look at what others have and also want that for yourself.   I do not think we are that far above the monkey cucumber studies and it is hubris to think we are.

If this is trolling though, I will bow out and let the 99% of you continue to pat each other on the back for your well thought out same sided discussions.

I don't think you're trolling, however...

There has been lots of disagreement in this thread, and yet you're the only one who's been called out for trolling. Maybe you should consider what makes your posts different?

nereo

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #177 on: April 15, 2021, 08:51:15 AM »
I don’t disagree with you @Laura33 regarding the difference between available and feasible. And as @maizefolk has pointed out, we have made enormous strides in many areas, far more than what was considered feasible even 5-10 years ago. And there-in lies my point. Doing everything to 100% isn’t feasible (economically, politically, socially...) but we can do more of the things which we already know how to do, and we almost certainly can do more than what the status quo suggests as feasible. Ultimately NOT taking these actions will have a higher cost, it’s just a question of who pays and when and for how long. 




Cool Friend

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #178 on: April 15, 2021, 09:20:03 AM »


Those who think I am a troll...such a weak argument.  Just because someone has a different opinion on a issue doesn't automatically make them a troll.   Do you really want a forum where everyone just agrees with everything you say?   Are you Kim Jong-un?


Yes, I'm Kim Jong-un.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #179 on: April 15, 2021, 09:22:32 AM »
Yes, I'm Kim Jong-un.

I am sorry for my transgressions most exalted one.

Cool Friend

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #180 on: April 15, 2021, 09:24:26 AM »
Yes, I'm Kim Jong-un.

I am sorry for my transgressions most exalted one.

Apology not accepted. You will be executed.

GuitarStv

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #181 on: April 15, 2021, 09:28:49 AM »
Yes, I'm Kim Jong-un.

I am sorry for my transgressions most exalted one.

Apology not accepted. You will be executed.

I know you're a busy man and all Kim . . . but I gotta ask about the hair.  What's the deal with that?

jrhampt

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #182 on: April 15, 2021, 09:45:33 AM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism. See the covid response where we initially saw projections of more than a million Americans dead. It was off by a factor of 2.


I actually think covid is a perfect example here.  For starters, covid isn't over.  We have 570k+ Americans dead as it is, but because we mounted an URGENT response and developed vaccines FAST, we will probably get out of this with <600k dead total.  I have no doubt, however, that if we did not develop this vaccine and roll it out as quickly as we are, that we would have > 1 million Americans dead.  See Michigan.  The waves are not over - but we may be vaccinating our way out of the worst of this.

So how does this apply to climate change?  The worst case scenarios are not sensationalism.  They actually very well could happen if we sit around twiddling our thumbs for another 20+ years.  We are slow to react.  But if we act with a sense of urgency, similar to how we reacted with covid, we may just be able to halve the damage.

bacchi

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #183 on: April 15, 2021, 09:52:23 AM »
So how does this apply to climate change?  The worst case scenarios are not sensationalism.  They actually very well could happen if we sit around twiddling our thumbs for another 20+ years.  We are slow to react.  But if we act with a sense of urgency, similar to how we reacted with covid, we may just be able to halve the damage.

This, and what maizefolk has posted, is more in-line with what the Nature article* referenced in the WSJ link discusses (rather than the WSJ or Koonin interpretation).

Quote
Overstating the likelihood of extreme climate impacts can make mitigation seem harder than it actually is. This could lead to defeatism, because the problem is perceived as being out of control and unsolvable.
[...]
This admission does not make climate action less urgent.
(bolded)

Quote
For policymakers, mitigation policies that depend on the assumptions underlying high-emission baseline scenarios such as RCP8.5 will seem exorbitant, because they do not incorporate the plummeting costs of many low-carbon technologies over the past decade.

The 3.0C scenario is much more likely than the 5.0C scenario (RCP8.5), if we get on it. This doesn't mean that a 3.0C rise won't be shitty for a lot of people.


* https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00177-3

PDXTabs

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #184 on: April 15, 2021, 10:11:31 AM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism.

It leads to sensationalism 5/6 times and blowing your brains out 1/6 times, that's how probabilities work. I for one don't like those odds.

Davnasty

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #185 on: April 15, 2021, 10:35:28 AM »
Interesting article in the WSJ about this today. Behind a paywall so I won’t reproduce the whole thing but

Quote
/A bigger moment of truth will come with a book by Steven Koonin, a theoretical physicist and chief scientist of the Obama Energy Department, demonstrating what the science—the plain, recognized, consensus science—says about climate change: It won’t be catastrophic. It’s unlikely to be influenced in a major way by policy actions. The costs will be large in relation to everything except the future, richer economy that will easily pay for them.

The jist of the article is basically that:

Quote
A drumroll moment was Zeke Hausfather and Glen Peter’s 2020 article in the journal Nature partly headlined: “Stop using the worst-case scenario for climate warming as the most likely outcome.”

We’re not in a bus speeding towards a brick wall. And standing on the metaphorical street corner screaming that we are is hysterical and not productive.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/climate-media-vs-climate-science-11618355224?mod=opinion_featst_pos2

It would appear the author of this opinion piece cited Hausfather & Peters just to use that quote. If anyone reads this opinion piece I would highly recomend reading the article from nature as well.

Here's another quote from the Journal:

Quote
Assessment of current policies suggests that the world is on course for around 3 °C of warming above pre-industrial levels by the end of the century — still a catastrophic outcome, but a long way from 5 °C7,8. We cannot settle for 3 °C; nor should we dismiss progress.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00177-3

maizefolk

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #186 on: April 15, 2021, 10:47:05 AM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism.

It leads to sensationalism 5/6 times and blowing your brains out 1/6 times, that's how probabilities work. I for one don't like those odds.

Why its important to actually discuss and understand probability, which is something it feels like a lot of journalists and political advocacy organizations shy away from.

If someone says "the gun will never go off" people won't have a reason not to try over and over. If they say "the gun will kill you every time" the first time someone still tries and the gun doesn't go off, the person trying to convince them not to play russian roulette lose credibility when they then try to warn that "next time the gun will kill you".

If anyone reads this opinion piece I would highly recomend reading the article from nature as well.

Here's another quote from the Journal:

Quote
Assessment of current policies suggests that the world is on course for around 3 °C of warming above pre-industrial levels by the end of the century — still a catastrophic outcome, but a long way from 5 °C7,8. We cannot settle for 3 °C; nor should we dismiss progress.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00177-3

Now that's a worldview I can get behind. Thanks for linking to this Davnasty.

dougules

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #187 on: April 15, 2021, 10:59:28 AM »
It would be easier just to incentivise having fewer children, perhaps by taxing subsequent children or giving cash rewards to those who forego children.

We do the opposite of that in the USA though with the child tax credits.

Although compared to daycare costs I guess it is a drop in the bucket so maybe there is some disincentive already in place, at least for working parents who would need to fund daycare.

Those who think I am a troll...such a weak argument.  Just because someone has a different opinion on a issue doesn't automatically make them a troll.   Do you really want a forum where everyone just agrees with everything you say?   Are you Kim Jong-un?

I did mess up when I said the rich are not the problem, I should have said the rich are the problem but it is greatly compounded by the rapidly increasing global population.  I still contend (and I don't think it is trolling) that it is human nature to strive for more comforts and to look at what others have and also want that for yourself.   I do not think we are that far above the monkey cucumber studies and it is hubris to think we are.

If this is trolling though, I will bow out and let the 99% of you continue to pat each other on the back for your well thought out same sided discussions.

There is no rapid increase in global population any more.  The only reason the global population is increasing at all at this point is because of lag and because of birth rates in the very poorest countries.  Even there, the fertility rates are declining.  The irony is that the prosperity that brings more greenhouse gas emissions has also been very effective birth control.

robartsd

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #188 on: April 15, 2021, 12:07:42 PM »
Re-think minimum lot size and square footage regulations
And parking requirements.

Improve broadband
Curious how you see this as part of reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

OtherJen

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #189 on: April 15, 2021, 12:19:04 PM »
Re-think minimum lot size and square footage regulations
And parking requirements.

Improve broadband
Curious how you see this as part of reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

I'd guess that improved telecommunications would further reduce the need for business travel and commuting.

nereo

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #190 on: April 15, 2021, 12:29:40 PM »

Improve broadband
Curious how you see this as part of reducing carbon dioxide emissions.

It gets a bit into the weeds, but in very rural areas there's a lot of extraneous traveling that's done because people can't join a video chat, download a file or access the server. My spouse works in government, and even during this shut down when almost everything went online, there would still be a dozen people every meeting who'd drive and sit in the government parking lot and participate on their phone because they can't do so at home. 
Some recent studies suggest a lot of businesses are keeping at least a hybrid of WFH/in-office in the future. Which, strictly from an environmental standpoint the less commuting we do the better.

Mgmny

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #191 on: April 15, 2021, 12:54:24 PM »
Re-think minimum lot size and square footage regulations
And parking requirements.

The ADA crowd will not be pleased. There are a lot of things i find when doing renovations that, due to accessibility requirements built into the building code, make it challenging to do things simply.

The same can be said about fire code, but it's harder for ones to argue "there will never be a fire here" vs "there will never be a wheelchair accessing the hallway in my loft"

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #192 on: April 15, 2021, 05:42:28 PM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism.

It leads to sensationalism 5/6 times and blowing your brains out 1/6 times, that's how probabilities work. I for one don't like those odds.

No, sensationalism would be more like saying that "there are two outcomes, nothing going wrong and getting shot in the head" and not noting that their respective probabilities at 5:1. Or treating the 'bad outcome' as being 50/50 likely rather than 83/17 likely.

In any event global warming is not like Russian Roulette because there is no black or white outcome - only a gradient of outcomes. To focus on the worst case when there is a gradient of outcomes is intellectually dishonest - as dishonest as focussing on the very best case scenario.

GuitarStv

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #193 on: April 15, 2021, 08:10:57 PM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism.

It leads to sensationalism 5/6 times and blowing your brains out 1/6 times, that's how probabilities work. I for one don't like those odds.

No, sensationalism would be more like saying that "there are two outcomes, nothing going wrong and getting shot in the head" and not noting that their respective probabilities at 5:1. Or treating the 'bad outcome' as being 50/50 likely rather than 83/17 likely.

In any event global warming is not like Russian Roulette because there is no black or white outcome - only a gradient of outcomes. To focus on the worst case when there is a gradient of outcomes is intellectually dishonest - as dishonest as focussing on the very best case scenario.

I agree that the russian roulette analogy isn't all that great.  With Russian roulette there's no negative outcome at all 5/6 times.  We already know that there will be negative outcomes now no matter what happens going forward with the environment.  There is a gradient.  At one end we have 'super apocalyptic' and at the other end we have 'significant amounts of suffering'.  All signs point to continued darkening of this gradient as we dither and prevaricate rather than address the problem now.

former player

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #194 on: April 16, 2021, 12:39:43 AM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism.

It leads to sensationalism 5/6 times and blowing your brains out 1/6 times, that's how probabilities work. I for one don't like those odds.

No, sensationalism would be more like saying that "there are two outcomes, nothing going wrong and getting shot in the head" and not noting that their respective probabilities at 5:1. Or treating the 'bad outcome' as being 50/50 likely rather than 83/17 likely.

In any event global warming is not like Russian Roulette because there is no black or white outcome - only a gradient of outcomes. To focus on the worst case when there is a gradient of outcomes is intellectually dishonest - as dishonest as focussing on the very best case scenario.

I agree that the russian roulette analogy isn't all that great.  With Russian roulette there's no negative outcome at all 5/6 times.  We already know that there will be negative outcomes now no matter what happens going forward with the environment.  There is a gradient.  At one end we have 'super apocalyptic' and at the other end we have 'significant amounts of suffering'.  All signs point to continued darkening of this gradient as we dither and prevaricate rather than address the problem now.
There is another result of climate change/climate destabilisation that the simplistic russian roulette analogy doesn't cover, in that the game is being played by 7 billion of us at the same time.  So some places are already being wiped off the map by rising sea levels, some people have already died in storms and wildfires and in floods from melting glaciers, some people have already died in famines from drought.  The bullet has already been fired for them, and it is lined up in the chamber for others.  Climate change has already been catastrophic in some parts of the world and is unstoppedly on track to be catastrophic in more.

Just because some of us are sitting pretty in places that aren't going to see the worst of it until after our natural lifespans doesn't mean the catastrophe isn't already here for others.

PDXTabs

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #195 on: April 16, 2021, 11:11:18 AM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism.

It leads to sensationalism 5/6 times and blowing your brains out 1/6 times, that's how probabilities work. I for one don't like those odds.

No, sensationalism would be more like saying that "there are two outcomes, nothing going wrong and getting shot in the head" and not noting that their respective probabilities at 5:1. Or treating the 'bad outcome' as being 50/50 likely rather than 83/17 likely.

In any event global warming is not like Russian Roulette because there is no black or white outcome - only a gradient of outcomes. To focus on the worst case when there is a gradient of outcomes is intellectually dishonest - as dishonest as focussing on the very best case scenario.

I agree that the russian roulette analogy isn't all that great.  With Russian roulette there's no negative outcome at all 5/6 times.  We already know that there will be negative outcomes now no matter what happens going forward with the environment.  There is a gradient.  At one end we have 'super apocalyptic' and at the other end we have 'significant amounts of suffering'.  All signs point to continued darkening of this gradient as we dither and prevaricate rather than address the problem now.
There is another result of climate change/climate destabilisation that the simplistic russian roulette analogy doesn't cover, in that the game is being played by 7 billion of us at the same time.  So some places are already being wiped off the map by rising sea levels, some people have already died in storms and wildfires and in floods from melting glaciers, some people have already died in famines from drought.  The bullet has already been fired for them, and it is lined up in the chamber for others.  Climate change has already been catastrophic in some parts of the world and is unstoppedly on track to be catastrophic in more.

Just because some of us are sitting pretty in places that aren't going to see the worst of it until after our natural lifespans doesn't mean the catastrophe isn't already here for others.

I agree that it isn't a perfect analogy, I disagree that it is a bad one. Eg, go read UW: Earth likely to warm more than 2 degrees this century which reports on Nature: Less than 2 °C warming by 2100 unlikely. Notice that the range in predictions, maybe it will rise 2.0° C and maybe it will rise 4.9° C, with a mean estimate of 3.2° C. When playing probabalistic Russian roulette with the planet, I think that we should always use the high number. Also of note: Our model is not a ‘business as usual’ scenario, but rather is based on data which already show the effect of emission mitigation policies. Achieving the goal of less than 1.5 °C warming will require carbon intensity to decline much faster than in the recent past.

Peaksandvalleys

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #196 on: April 16, 2021, 11:32:50 AM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism.

It leads to sensationalism 5/6 times and blowing your brains out 1/6 times, that's how probabilities work. I for one don't like those odds.

No, sensationalism would be more like saying that "there are two outcomes, nothing going wrong and getting shot in the head" and not noting that their respective probabilities at 5:1. Or treating the 'bad outcome' as being 50/50 likely rather than 83/17 likely.

In any event global warming is not like Russian Roulette because there is no black or white outcome - only a gradient of outcomes. To focus on the worst case when there is a gradient of outcomes is intellectually dishonest - as dishonest as focussing on the very best case scenario.

I agree that the russian roulette analogy isn't all that great.  With Russian roulette there's no negative outcome at all 5/6 times.  We already know that there will be negative outcomes now no matter what happens going forward with the environment.  There is a gradient.  At one end we have 'super apocalyptic' and at the other end we have 'significant amounts of suffering'.  All signs point to continued darkening of this gradient as we dither and prevaricate rather than address the problem now.
There is another result of climate change/climate destabilisation that the simplistic russian roulette analogy doesn't cover, in that the game is being played by 7 billion of us at the same time.  So some places are already being wiped off the map by rising sea levels, some people have already died in storms and wildfires and in floods from melting glaciers, some people have already died in famines from drought.  The bullet has already been fired for them, and it is lined up in the chamber for others.  Climate change has already been catastrophic in some parts of the world and is unstoppedly on track to be catastrophic in more.

Just because some of us are sitting pretty in places that aren't going to see the worst of it until after our natural lifespans doesn't mean the catastrophe isn't already here for others.

I agree that it isn't a perfect analogy, I disagree that it is a bad one. Eg, go read UW: Earth likely to warm more than 2 degrees this century which reports on Nature: Less than 2 °C warming by 2100 unlikely. Notice that the range in predictions, maybe it will rise 2.0° C and maybe it will rise 4.9° C, with a mean estimate of 3.2° C. When playing probabalistic Russian roulette with the planet, I think that we should always use the high number. Also of note: Our model is not a ‘business as usual’ scenario, but rather is based on data which already show the effect of emission mitigation policies. Achieving the goal of less than 1.5 °C warming will require carbon intensity to decline much faster than in the recent past.


You are using outdated data and referencing outliers. Current estimates are between 2.7 and 3.1C on current pace (i believe that is a 95% confidence interval). It appears quite clear that we will not achieve 1.5C, it is similarly unlikely that climate change will be limited to less than 2.0C. Nonetheless, it is important to use accurate figures rather than outlier 4.9C models. Understanding and referencing confidence intervals when presenting data has far more utility than referencing the upper limit outlier

PDXTabs

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #197 on: April 16, 2021, 11:44:37 AM »
Quote
I am a paid subscriber, and I still believe that when playing Russian-roulette that you should care more about the worst-case outcome than the average case.

This just leads to sensationalism.

It leads to sensationalism 5/6 times and blowing your brains out 1/6 times, that's how probabilities work. I for one don't like those odds.

No, sensationalism would be more like saying that "there are two outcomes, nothing going wrong and getting shot in the head" and not noting that their respective probabilities at 5:1. Or treating the 'bad outcome' as being 50/50 likely rather than 83/17 likely.

In any event global warming is not like Russian Roulette because there is no black or white outcome - only a gradient of outcomes. To focus on the worst case when there is a gradient of outcomes is intellectually dishonest - as dishonest as focussing on the very best case scenario.

I agree that the russian roulette analogy isn't all that great.  With Russian roulette there's no negative outcome at all 5/6 times.  We already know that there will be negative outcomes now no matter what happens going forward with the environment.  There is a gradient.  At one end we have 'super apocalyptic' and at the other end we have 'significant amounts of suffering'.  All signs point to continued darkening of this gradient as we dither and prevaricate rather than address the problem now.
There is another result of climate change/climate destabilisation that the simplistic russian roulette analogy doesn't cover, in that the game is being played by 7 billion of us at the same time.  So some places are already being wiped off the map by rising sea levels, some people have already died in storms and wildfires and in floods from melting glaciers, some people have already died in famines from drought.  The bullet has already been fired for them, and it is lined up in the chamber for others.  Climate change has already been catastrophic in some parts of the world and is unstoppedly on track to be catastrophic in more.

Just because some of us are sitting pretty in places that aren't going to see the worst of it until after our natural lifespans doesn't mean the catastrophe isn't already here for others.

I agree that it isn't a perfect analogy, I disagree that it is a bad one. Eg, go read UW: Earth likely to warm more than 2 degrees this century which reports on Nature: Less than 2 °C warming by 2100 unlikely. Notice that the range in predictions, maybe it will rise 2.0° C and maybe it will rise 4.9° C, with a mean estimate of 3.2° C. When playing probabalistic Russian roulette with the planet, I think that we should always use the high number. Also of note: Our model is not a ‘business as usual’ scenario, but rather is based on data which already show the effect of emission mitigation policies. Achieving the goal of less than 1.5 °C warming will require carbon intensity to decline much faster than in the recent past.


You are using outdated data and referencing outliers. Current estimates are between 2.7 and 3.1C on current pace (i believe that is a 95% confidence interval). It appears quite clear that we will not achieve 1.5C, it is similarly unlikely that climate change will be limited to less than 2.0C. Nonetheless, it is important to use accurate figures rather than outlier 4.9C models. Understanding and referencing confidence intervals when presenting data has far more utility than referencing the upper limit outlier

Am I? The last full IPCC report was in 2014, AFAIK, but I'm willing to look at more data.

Of note: in the IPCC report they like to talk about "likely" outcomes, but that's actually a 66% confidence estimate.

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #198 on: April 16, 2021, 11:57:31 AM »
In my experience, when the discussion gets stuck on whether an analogy is or is not a great representation of the problem, the underlying subject suffers. Some would prefer to debate the analogy more than Solutions to the problem at hand.


PDXTabs

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Re: The rich are to blame for climate change
« Reply #199 on: April 16, 2021, 11:58:43 AM »
In my experience, when the discussion gets stuck on whether an analogy is or is not a great representation of the problem, the underlying subject suffers. Some would prefer to debate the analogy more than Solutions to the problem at hand.

Fair enough. I think when we are talking about our only planet we should actually be using the 99% confidence interval worst case numbers. How does anything else make sense?

EDITed to add - and looking out to 2500, not 2100. If you look at the IPCC report that I linked to 2300 is terrifying.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 12:03:05 PM by PDXTabs »