Author Topic: The Racial Wealth Gap:Mustachians of Color, feel free to share your experiences!  (Read 64241 times)

Gin1984

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I'm beginning to get the feeling that you're not really reading my posts...

Just as I get the feeling that you're not really thinking about mine, because you've already made up your mind what the problem is, and that the solution is to do pretty much what has been done for the last half-century or so.  That hasn't worked, so the solution must be to do it harder :-)

It's not so much that I've made up my mind about what the problem is - it's that this is what the evidence shows the problem to be.

We humans are desperately short-sighted, and we love instant gratification. We build institutions over centuries, and when they crumble, we expect their replacement to spring into being fully formed overnight.

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I'll gladly admit that I don't know any solutions.  I just think it's possible that we might learn something useful from the experiences of others.

On this point we can agree. My only solution is to be honest about history, and there is a great deal to be learned from the experience of those who have been kept at the fringes of the American mainstream.

@Constance Noring

I apologize in advance, this got  long.

Many of the posters on this thread are not United States citizens.  We are coming from other countries with other histories, many of which are just as bad, although in different ways.  This forum is international, please do not be the "Ugly American abroad" and take a narrow viewpoint.

A harsh term, my northern friend. I do hope you can understand that my insistence on keeping my posts focused on the effects of slavery in the United States is not to marginalize the rest of the continent. My intent was, and remains, to discuss how slavery here in the US (and the subsequent treatment of ex-slaves and their descendants) has had a profound impact on the experience of black Americans, the fruits of which can be seen in the study posted in the OP. It's not that the rest of North America doesn't matter, it's simply that the majority of the conversation has revolved around the United States. (I'll also note that thus far, all of the posters in this thread who have identified as black have been from the United States)

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In general, let's also remember that this period in history is very socially conscious, most periods thought nothing of slavery - the Angles  (you know, part of Anglo-Saxon) got their name because someone in Rome thought that slaves from there (blond, blue-eyed) looked "angelic".  Women especially got carted off as booty after every war - and one of their main jobs in slavery was the production of textiles.

As I've repeatedly acknowledged in my previous posts, slavery is an unfortunately universal idea. But what's the point of trotting out that fact in the midst of a discussion of particular nature of, and impacts of, slavery in the history of the United States, unless it's intended to be a focus-puller? Yes, slavery has existed since the first caveman realized he could force someone else to do his work for him, and it continues to exist to this day, but as I said before, what does that have to do with the racial wealth gap in the United States?

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In Canada we get to watch it all from "next door". "Blood and Daring: How Canada Fought the American Civil War and Forged A Nation" by John Boyko explores the American Civil War and how it encouraged Canadian Confederation.  You might find it interesting because it presents a contemporary society that treated escaped slaves very differently.  They went on to become respected and productive Canadian citizens.  More recently we have had many immigrants from the Caribbean (many from Haiti, because they can easily go to Quebec).  Many (most?) of them are the descendants of former slaves in areas where black=slave was also the norm historically.  One of them became a Governor-General of Canada (the GG is the vice-regal representative of the Queen, so this is a major position).   Michaëlle Jean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C3%ABlle_Jean) came to Canada in 1968 (born 1957) as a refugee from Haiti.  Growing up in Little Burgundy in Montreal she was not in a "good neighbourhood".  But look at her achievements.

Well, let's talk about Canada. Slavery was legal in Canada until 1833, when the British government officially abolished it, but the African slave trade never gained much traction in Canada for the same reason it didn't in the northern United States - climate. The growing season was too short and too cool to make large-scale, labor intensive cash crop agriculture economically feasible the way it was in South and the Caribbean. Without the need for a large, controllable work force, most people found they preferred to white servants instead of buying black slaves, and the desire for legal slavery had mostly petered out north of about Pennsylvania by the turn of the 19th century.

As such, people of African descent make up a much, MUCH smaller percentage of Canada's modern population than the United States' - something like approximately 3% to America's 13% - and the largest segment of that group can trace their family roots to ancestors who fled slavery in the United States. (The Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 wound up not only convincing runaways to keep on running, but also prompted some immigration on the part of free Northern blacks who didn't want to risk being 'accidentally' kidnapped and sent south.) The difference in those demographics plays a huge part in the success of the black Canadian community, but ultimately, the absence of the social expectations that went with race-based slavery meant that black Canadians were not forced, by law and custom, to occupy a lower rung of the ladder.

I was able to find one study dealing with a wealth gap in the Canadian economy, though it only focuses on Ontario. One point of interest I took away from it is that while there does appear to be a generalized wealth gap between whites and blacks in Ontario, it's roughly the same gap that exists between white Canadians and other minority groups.

(There is, of course, the issue of the appalling poverty faced by Canadian First Nations groups, but the US has not a single stone to throw on that score, seeing as we did the exact same thing, and worse. Yet another American Paradox we have trouble swallowing)

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So the point of the discussion is - various groups have had very problematic histories - some have managed to pull themselves up and some have not, in any group.  Any group will have its achievers and ne'er-do-wells.  What does this mean for "People-of-colour" in the US?  Beats me.  Do those who do well move into a more blended society and the focus is only on those who do not do well and stay put in a ghetto?

norabird addressed this point very well.

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Personally, I also look at the US when it puts "Hispanics" into a category and wonder about that - that is anyone from Spain, Portugal, South America, and a lot of the Caribbean - wow.  What happened to the "melting pot"?

A couple points here:

For one, the visibly African ancestry of many from the Caribbean means they find themselves coming squarely under the heading of "black folks" in the United States, thanks to our old friend the one drop rule. And for the other, well - It's kind of like the situation faced by a lot of southern European immigrants to the US back at the turn of the 20th century. Whiteness was more than just skin color, it was social and cultural. And if you had a good enough grasp of English and were willing to set aside 'ethnic' signifiers, you could find the door to the White Club opening, if not to you, then to your children. So it is for many people of Hispanic/Latino/Iberian extraction. However, the fact that many folks from Mexico (and Guatemala, Honduras, Costa Rica and points south) have a high degree of non-European ancestry. This means that they can adopt all the 'white' behaviors they want and still never have the right look to make attaining "whiteness" a simple matter for themselves or their children so long as whiteness is the cultural default. (A problem shared by South Asians, the various ethnicities of the Middle East, and many of our own Native Nations.)

Tribalism and racial bias are the ugly little demons sitting on the shoulder of human nature. We know they're there, and there is not one group of humans in the world that is incapable of expressing them. We have all of human history to look to for the proof of this. The variations lie in the mechanisms by which these divisions and biases manifest themselves within each culture. The root cause of racial bias and the end result of a racial wealth gap within American society may be the same between, for example, African-Americans and Latinos, but each group arrived at those points within our shared culture and heritage through very different circumstances. If we are actually serious about addressing the root causes of these inequalities, we need to also address and honestly discuss the circumstances and histories directly relevant to the people impacted by these inequalities. These are unique to each group.

Right now, even despite the international flavor of this community, the major talking points of this thread are related to the racial wealth gap that impacts African-Americans in the United States. This means we have to talk honestly about how that gap was established in the first place, and that means acknowledging the impact of treating an entire race of people like livestock from the cradle to the grave for approximately 200 years. It took us another 100 years just to get us from the 13th Amendment to the Civil Rights Act, a century of violence, fraud, marginalization, and rage. It will likely take us another 50 years before a majority of the population in this country is willing to admit and openly discuss in an honest and adult manner the impact and legacy that the sins of our forefathers had upon us as a nation. This isn't about white guilt. It's about owning up to our history and learning from it.

It's been frequently mentioned in this thread that education is the first and best starting place for addressing  inequality. Maybe more African-Americans need to learn how to manage their money. And maybe everybody needs to learn more history.
I find this comment slightly amusing because my husband (and daughter) are hispanic and my husband does get treated differently than I do (as a white woman).  One of the reasons he likes being on the upper east coast is most people THINK he is white, so he passes.  People mostly ask if he is Italian or Spaniard.  Rarely does he get "hispanic", mexican, or puerto rican (the most common of the rare) (being asked if he is polish is more common, lol).

Bakari

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First and foremost: deconcentrate poverty. When all of the poor people live in one place, both the internal sources of harm (oversimplifying: behavior) and the external sources of harm (oversimplifying: resources) compound and reinforce each other.

That's actually an excellent idea.
From now on I'll add it to the ideas of mandatory and free preschool and kindergarten, decriminalizing drug addiction, shifting more to free markets instead of capitalism, and public service announcements about anti-social culture and its effects by prominent black celebrities.

It always bothers me when people complain about "gentrification" in rent controlled cities.  Part of rent control is you can not ever evict someone just to get higher rent, nor can you raise the rent more than a fixed amount each year.  So no matter how many people with money move in, no one is being displaced or forced out.  What most activists mean by "gentrification" is "integration".  People complained when middle class whites move out of the cities, creating ghettos, but now they complain when they move back in!

Voluntary cultural segregation is not necessarily, in and of itself, a negative thing.  The problem is specifically that the poor urban Black youth subculture in particular has developed a serious anti-social element to it.  It glorifies crime and violence and eschews education and saving.  Maybe joining "mainstream" America has its downsides too, but as it stands that sub-culture definitely perpetuates the wealth gap.
 

Thus we have Section 8 housing, scattered throughout the community. The Section 8 unit is often the most troublesome property on the block.
Where the word "often", with no statistics,  represents prejudice.

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Look, I'm not saying it's a bad idea from the social policy POV of addressing social problems,  I'm saying it's a PITA to live near a Nanny G experiment like this.
In other words, NIMBY
Why should people who are poor, but well behaved, be forced to live near those "troublesome" people any more than you?
Maybe being around annoying people is part of the societal cost, accepting it is part of what the middle class and white people can do to help change the situation, a way to counter-balance some privilege.


One more white dude here.

My view is (perhaps overly) simple: Now that there is equality before the law, and equal opportunity is the law, it only takes one good generation to beat the poverty cycle for good. While it's not fair that the starting point is so much lower, advancing from that position is absolutely possible (and happens each day). It's not fair, like I said, but at this point is all falls upon the each individual to better themselves and their children by rejecting social norms and taking advantage of every available resource (such as the oft mentioned education).
It is overly simple.  The vast majority of real people don't work that way.  Most people adopt the language, habits, religion, culture, that they grow up with.  Its part of being human.
What reason is there not to have American society (which deliberately created the situation in the first place, and benefited from it) make an active effort to help?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 01:27:11 PM by Bakari »

Jamesqf

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I don't really get this perspective.  Who is the arbiter as to what "mainstream society" is and furthermore who gets to pass judgment as to whether someone is properly 'integrating'?  Does every person need to have a dream of a white picket fence in the suburbs?  Finally, its implied here that the burden is on black people or "black culture" to become mainstream.

The mainstream decides what the mainstream is, by being - among other things - where the opportunities are. 

I wouldn't say that I'm implying that the burden of 'black culture' is to become mainstream, but rather that a major purpose of it is to keep black people from becoming mainstream (however you define it), even when they want to.  While I personally don't want that white picket fence in the suburbs (too much like city for me), I don't see why any particular black person shouldn't aspire to it, if that's what they want.  Or to a PhD in math or physics, a career as a doctor, concert violinist or horse trainer, or whatever.  But to 'black culture' aspiring to those things is the horrible crime of 'acting white'.

fitzgeralday

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I don't really get this perspective.  Who is the arbiter as to what "mainstream society" is and furthermore who gets to pass judgment as to whether someone is properly 'integrating'?  Does every person need to have a dream of a white picket fence in the suburbs?  Finally, its implied here that the burden is on black people or "black culture" to become mainstream.

The mainstream decides what the mainstream is, by being - among other things - where the opportunities are. 

I wouldn't say that I'm implying that the burden of 'black culture' is to become mainstream, but rather that a major purpose of it is to keep black people from becoming mainstream (however you define it), even when they want to.  While I personally don't want that white picket fence in the suburbs (too much like city for me), I don't see why any particular black person shouldn't aspire to it, if that's what they want.  Or to a PhD in math or physics, a career as a doctor, concert violinist or horse trainer, or whatever.  But to 'black culture' aspiring to those things is the horrible crime of 'acting white'.

While criticism to discourage deviating from the norm exists (and may have a historical element to it, as these deviations at one point in time could have easily resulted in far worse consequences than hurt feelings), I think the more significant influence might be a combination of: (1) lack of exposure that these options even exist, and (2) guidance on properly navigating atypical* career trajectories.  Aspiring to become a concert violinist or horse trainer might not seem entirely realistic for someone without access to the proper tools (in this case, a violin and horse), or an example to demonstrate these paths can be accomplished - particularly for someone who looks like them. 

*And yes, I consider a PhD in math and physics to be atypical, as only a very small percentage of the population holds this degree in any discipline.

Glad to see the convo is still going!

Bakari

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Fitz and James, there are elements of what both of you are saying.

thepokercab

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I don't really get this perspective.  Who is the arbiter as to what "mainstream society" is and furthermore who gets to pass judgment as to whether someone is properly 'integrating'?  Does every person need to have a dream of a white picket fence in the suburbs?  Finally, its implied here that the burden is on black people or "black culture" to become mainstream.

The mainstream decides what the mainstream is, by being - among other things - where the opportunities are. 

I wouldn't say that I'm implying that the burden of 'black culture' is to become mainstream, but rather that a major purpose of it is to keep black people from becoming mainstream (however you define it), even when they want to.  While I personally don't want that white picket fence in the suburbs (too much like city for me), I don't see why any particular black person shouldn't aspire to it, if that's what they want.  Or to a PhD in math or physics, a career as a doctor, concert violinist or horse trainer, or whatever.  But to 'black culture' aspiring to those things is the horrible crime of 'acting white'.

Yeah.  It sounds like the overall consensus here is that its objectively good for a culture to place strong value and emphasis on education.  The 'mainstream' culture as we call it, places a high value on this, evidenced by the people willing to take out a crap load of loans to finance it, and if other cultures would value it highly as well then they would be in a better position to lift themselves up out of whatever poor economic circumstances they may find themselves in. 

Also, while we might debate the particular policy nuances about how we can make education affordable and available to everyone, if its part of your cultural outlook to look upon education has unnecessary or as conforming then all of the free education money can buy isn't going to have the impact that we want it to.  But I guess the question is how much of it is cultural vs access to that education? I don't know. 


hybrid

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And I also think back to when I was young and idealistic (now I am old and still idealistic) and things seemed to be moving well for blacks in the US, there was such a ground swell of change.

I'll probably take a lot of flak for this, but looking back, it seems that the real progress was in the late '60s to mid-'80s (very roughly speaking), when the general focus was more into integration into mainstream society.  After that, it seemed that 'black culture' was trying to impose its own form of segregation.

No flak from me. I have noted the irony of how "separate but equal" was so very wrong in the South for so many decades but all these years later I see many signs of voluntary segregation. I fully get that people want to be where they feel comfortable, I simply wonder if we will see a point in our lifetimes where it won't be that way. I suspect not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

Separate but equal was wrong because it was intended to prevent social mobility and economic freedom for African-Americans. Surely you can see how forcible, legal marginalization of an entire group of people is not the same as voluntary segregation.

(Though I would argue that much of the "voluntary" nature of the separations in our current day and age has just as much to do with lack of opportunity as self-selecting your neighbors.)

Ha ha Constance, you incorrectly assumed I meant only blacks are self-segregating. No, I mean that whites are also still doing this and are quite comfortable with the notion.

Jamesqf

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...or an example to demonstrate these paths can be accomplished - particularly for someone who looks like them. 

There, I think, is a big part of the problem: too much focus on 'looking like them', as though it's not possible to do something unless you look a particular way.  Which again plays into that whole 'acting white' set of memes, where black culture acts to push black people towards the particular set of stereotypes that constitute the culture because of their appearance.  The irony here is that most of the problems mainstream/white culture has with blacks stems from their conformity to those stereotypes, rather than the simple fact of skin color.

Constance Noring

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And I also think back to when I was young and idealistic (now I am old and still idealistic) and things seemed to be moving well for blacks in the US, there was such a ground swell of change.

I'll probably take a lot of flak for this, but looking back, it seems that the real progress was in the late '60s to mid-'80s (very roughly speaking), when the general focus was more into integration into mainstream society.  After that, it seemed that 'black culture' was trying to impose its own form of segregation.

No flak from me. I have noted the irony of how "separate but equal" was so very wrong in the South for so many decades but all these years later I see many signs of voluntary segregation. I fully get that people want to be where they feel comfortable, I simply wonder if we will see a point in our lifetimes where it won't be that way. I suspect not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

Separate but equal was wrong because it was intended to prevent social mobility and economic freedom for African-Americans. Surely you can see how forcible, legal marginalization of an entire group of people is not the same as voluntary segregation.

(Though I would argue that much of the "voluntary" nature of the separations in our current day and age has just as much to do with lack of opportunity as self-selecting your neighbors.)

Ha ha Constance, you incorrectly assumed I meant only blacks are self-segregating. No, I mean that whites are also still doing this and are quite comfortable with the notion.

If that's the only incorrect assumption I've made today, I'm doing pretty well for myself.

I'd say the point still stands, though, even if it was misaimed.

iris lily

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In other words, NIMBY
Why should people who are poor, but well behaved, be forced to live near those "troublesome" people any more than you?
Maybe being around annoying people is part of the societal cost, accepting it is part of what the middle class and white people can do to help change the situation, a way to counter-balance some privilege.

That assumes I "owe" society for being middle class and white. Within that context your argument is neat and tidy, true and right. Unfortunately, I don't accept your premise.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 11:50:53 PM by iris lily »

fitzgeralday

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...or an example to demonstrate these paths can be accomplished - particularly for someone who looks like them. 

There, I think, is a big part of the problem: too much focus on 'looking like them', as though it's not possible to do something unless you look a particular way.  Which again plays into that whole 'acting white' set of memes, where black culture acts to push black people towards the particular set of stereotypes that constitute the culture because of their appearance.  The irony here is that most of the problems mainstream/white culture has with blacks stems from their conformity to those stereotypes, rather than the simple fact of skin color.

While I believe I understand your point, I still stand firm on my belief that representation matters as this lends to a shared cultural understanding relative to whatever the experience or role is.  The whole premise behind why I began this topic for discussion is due to the cultural underpinnings behind wealth building behaviors specifically, and to start a dialogue on how culture and race influence individual behavior and attitudes.  To me, it's not about "acting white" but more so how belonging to a specific racial/ethnic group has influenced the behaviors associated with wealth building for members belonging to those groups.  I appreciate the knowledge and values that I am able to gain from any individual, regardless of their similarities to me (hence my support of MMM), but do recognize that individuals who have my shared experiences are able to relate and understand me in a way that some others may not.  Bottom line, I believe race/ethnicity matters and uniquely influences behavior and attitudes, and representation contributes to the understanding of this influence in a variety of settings - finances being one of them. 

electriceagle

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In other words, NIMBY
Why should people who are poor, but well behaved, be forced to live near those "troublesome" people any more than you?
Maybe being around annoying people is part of the societal cost, accepting it is part of what the middle class and white people can do to help change the situation, a way to counter-balance some privilege.

That assumes I "owe" society for being middle class and white. Within that context your argument is neat and tidy, true and right. Unfortunately, I don't accept your premise.

This thread seems to have veered off into focusing on the lower economic strata rather than the middle, so I might as well address it.

There have been various suggestions that African-Americans of lower economic classes should value education more. Unfortunately, the level of opportunity that many people assume to be available is not actually present.

Here is a link to a bit of research which shows that 660 of the US' 12000+ high schools (~4.7%) are responsible for half of all African American male dropouts. http://new.every1graduates.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Methodology-for-Determining-660-Schools.pdf

Regardless of where the blame is placed, I contend that students who attend these schools in the country have so little opportunity that even moderate success makes an individual an outlier.

The typical game of political blame tennis shuttles the ball back and forth between schools and parents. I contend that historical (mostly racial, somewhat economic) and current (mostly economic, somewhat racial) segregation is at the root of these endlessly failing institutions.

Government-sponsored segregation left a large number of racially and socially isolated communities that had been systematically deprived of their rights. The various social and environmental ills that other parts of society did not want to deal with were -- and still are -- moved into these communities as a matter of policy. The high-density housing projects, mercury-spewing power plants, homeless shelters, methadone clinics, etc are concentrated in these neighborhoods so that folks who live away from them can enjoy being "middle class" without needing to encounter the world around them or feel that they "owe" anything.

One result is schools with so many problems that no number of social programs can remedy them. These schools have high proportions of students who have suffered acute violence, who are homeless, who suffer housing instability because of parents' employment instability, who were born to parents that used drugs, etc etc. The burden of having all of these difficult students in one place is too much for any combination of teaching and social services to bear.

Blame is often put on teachers. A good teacher can handle a class with 2-3 difficult students. While it is true that the teachers at these schools tend to be less effective than average (teachers who can get jobs somewhere else do!), even SuperTeacher who flies around the room and shoots learning beams from her eyes can't handle a class with 15 students who need special help.

The students who are assigned to these schools are disproportionately African American and Hispanic. I noted earlier that this very small number of schools is responsible for half of African American male dropouts. While students at these schools are no longer formally denied the right to an education, they are effectively being excluded from accessing one of even mediocre quality. Part of their response is to rebel, but their rebellion does not erase the fact that they have effectively been denied an education.

Edit: Expecting kids who go to these schools to succeed is like expecting to grow wealth through stock picking. While a few individuals do exceptionally well this way, they are the outliers rather than the average.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 06:35:00 AM by electriceagle »

hybrid

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ElectricEagle: I'll take what you are saying on face value. OK, here (as presented by you) is how Richmond city schools got to be so very abysmal. I really don't have any arguments there. The bigger question is how to fix that. For the individual who wants their child to be in a better school, the answer is obvious - move to neighboring Chesterfield or Henrico County a few miles away. Both of these counties are starting to experience the same issues in the worst demographic areas though, so the real answer around here is move to a wealthier area where kids come from better backgrounds and higher expectations. In other words, run from poverty as fast as possible.

This is not a viable answer for a great many people, however.

Richmond has thrown money at the problem year after year. It hasn't worked. Throwing more money at the problem therefore does not seem like a solution and while we are starting to see gentrification of neighborhoods, what we aren't seeing is an integration of the schools. White people are simply not going to move back to the city (which they largely like) and send their kids to most of the public schools (there are a few exceptions on the elementary school level in mostly white areas of the city, that evaporates at the middle and high school level). These folks either don't have school age kids or they opt for private school by and large.

Richmond has just begun the charter school experiment, I have zero predictions how that will turn out (if you had told me Eric Cantor would lose yesterday I would have said you were nuts). I do think it offers an opportunity for some, while making the troubled schools even worse than before.

I come back to my original premise. Money alone can't fix a broken society, government alone can't fix a broken society. Only the society itself (with adequate monetary resources) can turn itself around and how one manages that is a mystery to me. I can only point out what hasn't worked. 

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I come back to my original premise. Money alone can't fix a broken society, government alone can't fix a broken society. Only the society itself (with adequate monetary resources) can turn itself around and how one manages that is a mystery to me. I can only point out what hasn't worked.

Which brings us back to Constance's premise. We as a society on a whole need to address and honestly discuss some very uncomfortable topics regarding this country's history and exactly how our actions have directly contributed to shaping the society we have today. Right now, the general extent of most white folks understanding and internalization of the impact of slavery and racism within the modern black community could probably be expressed in ten incredibly condescending words or less: "Yes yes, we know, Kunta Kinte and driving while black."

This is the cultural caricature of what the majority of white America has come to understand of the true plight. The fact is that may be acknowledging it, but it's not the same as understanding it. That level of comprehension itself has even been repeatedly expressed within this very thread by numerous individuals who then throw their arms up in frustration because they don't know how to fix a very real problem, that to their credit, they do want to fix.

It begins with a little historical context and empathy directly related to the people in question. Without it, we fail to recognize the root causes to the behaviors that exist to this day within society as a whole that creates this inequality in the first place and feeds a rebellious and self-destructive sub-culture. Without the foundation of that recognition, we as a culture are lost and without a solution. After all, how can you fix something broken if you're not trying and willing to identify the broken parts within your own community that perpetuates the problem. White America has contributed equally to this disparity with opportunity. If we all want to fix it as a united people, we need to stop shifting any part of the blame away from ourselves or our history and truly start to acknowledge the very real and positive contributions to American society that African culture and labor has given us, even despite the exploitation and oppression, and not continue to whitewash these facts. It may not be forty acres and a mule from a reparations standpoint, but it's a start.

The African-American population recognizes the importance of this, and some of their bright pillars of society are here in these forums right now. There are some good ideas shaped by this knowledge and floated that have the potential to help us all no matter our ethnic background, but right now they go over like a lead balloon with the rest of us because we collectively keep wanting to say it's not our problem to deal with; and those with the greatest means to make the most meaningful impact are staunchly opposed to this supposed entitlement of others out of a perverse sense of self-entitlement. If we don't get on board soon with this discussion on what's actually broken, how to fix things, and consider embracing the sorts of changes necessary to perhaps build a better society... we are going to fragment further, and our African-American brothers and sisters are going to do collectively what they always do, what is necessary to rebound and thrive, with or without us.

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(education...)
I come back to my original premise. Money alone can't fix a broken society, government alone can't fix a broken society.


I proposed earlier: mandatory and free preschool and kindergarten.
Attending preschool is one of the best predictors for graduating high school.
I've heard that Oklahoma actually just instituted this, so we get to find out in 12 years if the theory holds up.

Then there is also the suggestion made earlier of decentralizing poverty - spread subsidized housing out all over different middle and upper class neighborhoods.  Then kids of different socio-economic status end up in different school districts, and you don't have a handful of terrible schools.

In other words - maybe money and government "alone" can't - but it make a big difference how its used.  You don't throw money directly at the symptoms, after the damage has been done, you invest in preempting those problems, you find the roots and put the money there.  You don't get instant results, but you're more likely to get lasting ones.

Jamesqf

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Which brings us back to Constance's premise. We as a society on a whole need to address and honestly discuss some very uncomfortable topics regarding this country's history and exactly how our actions have directly contributed to shaping the society we have today.

The problem here is that it's pretty hard to have a discussion when one party insists that they already know all the answers.

As to the addressing part, hasn't the country as a whole been trying to do jjust that for the last half century or so, with methods largely based on the paradigm used by the above party?  Doesn't the fact that those methods have largely failed suggest that the basic paradigm might be wrong?

Quote
Yes yes, we know, Kunta Kinte...

To go somewhat off the thread (or maybe not), I have never understood this whole "Roots" thing.  I certainly don't know, and don't care to know, any of my ancestry further back than grandparents, and never felt the worse for it. 

Quote
This is the cultural caricature of what the majority of white America has come to understand of the true plight.

Well, no, which is why my above digression really wasn't all that much off thread.  It's the whole question of whether history several generations and more back is really a plight today, or an excuse. 


fitzgeralday

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I come back to my original premise. Money alone can't fix a broken society, government alone can't fix a broken society. Only the society itself (with adequate monetary resources) can turn itself around and how one manages that is a mystery to me. I can only point out what hasn't worked.

Which brings us back to Constance's premise. We as a society on a whole need to address and honestly discuss some very uncomfortable topics regarding this country's history and exactly how our actions have directly contributed to shaping the society we have today. Right now, the general extent of most white folks understanding and internalization of the impact of slavery and racism within the modern black community could probably be expressed in ten incredibly condescending words or less: "Yes yes, we know, Kunta Kinte and driving while black."

This is the cultural caricature of what the majority of white America has come to understand of the true plight. The fact is that may be acknowledging it, but it's not the same as understanding it. That level of comprehension itself has even been repeatedly expressed within this very thread by numerous individuals who then throw their arms up in frustration because they don't know how to fix a very real problem, that to their credit, they do want to fix.

It begins with a little historical context and empathy directly related to the people in question. Without it, we fail to recognize the root causes to the behaviors that exist to this day within society as a whole that creates this inequality in the first place and feeds a rebellious and self-destructive sub-culture. Without the foundation of that recognition, we as a culture are lost and without a solution. After all, how can you fix something broken if you're not trying and willing to identify the broken parts within your own community that perpetuates the problem. White America has contributed equally to this disparity with opportunity. If we all want to fix it as a united people, we need to stop shifting any part of the blame away from ourselves or our history and truly start to acknowledge the very real and positive contributions to American society that African culture and labor has given us, even despite the exploitation and oppression, and not continue to whitewash these facts. It may not be forty acres and a mule from a reparations standpoint, but it's a start.

The African-American population recognizes the importance of this, and some of their bright pillars of society are here in these forums right now. There are some good ideas shaped by this knowledge and floated that have the potential to help us all no matter our ethnic background, but right now they go over like a lead balloon with the rest of us because we collectively keep wanting to say it's not our problem to deal with; and those with the greatest means to make the most meaningful impact are staunchly opposed to this supposed entitlement of others out of a perverse sense of self-entitlement. If we don't get on board soon with this discussion on what's actually broken, how to fix things, and consider embracing the sorts of changes necessary to perhaps build a better society... we are going to fragment further, and our African-American brothers and sisters are going to do collectively what they always do, what is necessary to rebound and thrive, with or without us.

IP Daley - if I could kiss you, I would.  Seriously, and I would just have to apologize to your SO afterwards because I absolutely love everything that you wrote above.  Your words provide a unified framework to begin to understand disparities with the hopes of resolving.   

Daley

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IP Daley - if I could kiss you, I would.  Seriously, and I would just have to apologize to your SO afterwards because I absolutely love everything that you wrote above.  Your words provide a unified framework to begin to understand disparities with the hopes of resolving.   

Shucks. I may have my moments like everyone else, but I just do what I can with what the L-rd's seen fit to bless me with.

I certainly know I wouldn't be here where I am with the level of understanding and insight that I have without my wife, Constance (here up-thread). The woman is one of those professional historian types, and as fate would have it, this was the subject of her study. Without her these past eleven years, I would not appreciate today the true impact of yesterday as I've grown to understand it. I'm sure she wouldn't mind, but honestly I think she deserves it more than I do. :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 02:00:56 PM by I.P. Daley »

fitzgeralday

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IP Daley - if I could kiss you, I would.  Seriously, and I would just have to apologize to your SO afterwards because I absolutely love everything that you wrote above.  Your words provide a unified framework to begin to understand disparities with the hopes of resolving.   

Shucks. I may have my moments like everyone else, but I just do what I can with what the L-rd's seen fit to bless me with.

I certainly know I wouldn't be here where I am with the level of understanding and insight that I have without my wife, Constance (here up-thread). The woman is one of those professional historian types, and as fate would have it, this was the subject of her study. Without her these past eleven years, I would not appreciate today the true impact of yesterday as I've grown to understand it. I'm sure she wouldn't mind, but honestly I think she deserves it more than I do. :)

Well thanks to your wife too for her love of history :)  And kudos to you for the spouse shout-out!

Gin1984

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IP Daley - if I could kiss you, I would.  Seriously, and I would just have to apologize to your SO afterwards because I absolutely love everything that you wrote above.  Your words provide a unified framework to begin to understand disparities with the hopes of resolving.   

Shucks. I may have my moments like everyone else, but I just do what I can with what the L-rd's seen fit to bless me with.

I certainly know I wouldn't be here where I am with the level of understanding and insight that I have without my wife, Constance (here up-thread). The woman is one of those professional historian types, and as fate would have it, this was the subject of her study. Without her these past eleven years, I would not appreciate today the true impact of yesterday as I've grown to understand it. I'm sure she wouldn't mind, but honestly I think she deserves it more than I do. :)
We could kiss her instead? ;)

fitzgeralday

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@Gin 1984

LOL, but seriously - thank you both for your contributions to this topic :)

Chuck

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One more white dude here.

My view is (perhaps overly) simple: Now that there is equality before the law, and equal opportunity is the law, it only takes one good generation to beat the poverty cycle for good. While it's not fair that the starting point is so much lower, advancing from that position is absolutely possible (and happens each day). It's not fair, like I said, but at this point is all falls upon the each individual to better themselves and their children by rejecting social norms and taking advantage of every available resource (such as the oft mentioned education).
It is overly simple.  The vast majority of real people don't work that way.  Most people adopt the language, habits, religion, culture, that they grow up with.  Its part of being human.
What reason is there not to have American society (which deliberately created the situation in the first place, and benefited from it) make an active effort to help?
The reasons either vary or don't exist based upon the proposed solution. I agree that there is a strong moral case for "making things right" but the issue falls to pieces when discussing how:

Affirmative Action: Creates losers and double standards, and as a policy, in my generation at least, has contributed more towards racial animosity than anything else I am aware of. This animosity serving to support other damaging stereotypes. That's not even getting into the rich black kid vs. poor white kid mess.

Decriminalization of Marijuana: Totally on board with that, but it will not address root cause of urban crime (joblessness and a lack of hope for the future) it will simply shift criminal activity to a new area. I'm still 100% behind the action, I just don't think it will solve this particular issue.

Reparations: I read and learned quite a lot from the article by Mr. Ta-Nehisi Coates. But Reparations are never, ever going to happen. It would create so much animosity and toxicity that it simply will never be considered.

What other government action has been taken or suggested?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 03:23:38 PM by Chuck »

ChrisLansing

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To go somewhat off the thread (or maybe not), I have never understood this whole "Roots" thing.  I certainly don't know, and don't care to know, any of my ancestry further back than grandparents, and never felt the worse for it. 


I personally feel the same way, but I'm sure it's largely because I'm white and can afford to ignore my "roots".   Other whites don't care that I'm of Scots ancestry.   I'm not going to be denied a job because I'm Scots instead of Polish.   I'm not going to get beat up for walking through the German section of town (if there was a German section).   We don't hate the Welsh and favor the Austrians.   White is white.   

Historically some groups that are now "white" were not always included.   If there is such a thing as the "melting pot" it's largely benefited whites and melted us into a single undifferentiated group.    It's fine to celebrate one's "heritage" but that can be neatly folded and put away in a drawer when the party is over, if one is white.   Being German (Polish, Irish, Scots, etc. )  isn't going to be an issue in day to day life.     

It might be very different for people of color who have not yet been accepted as equal members of the larger society.   

Quote
This is the cultural caricature of what the majority of white America has come to understand of the true plight.

Quote
Well, no, which is why my above digression really wasn't all that much off thread.  It's the whole question of whether history several generations and more back is really a plight today, or an excuse.

Well it certainly isn't completely in the category of excuse.   Black people (and other minorities) are still treated unequally.   

I do wonder if talking about slavery is on point when we in fact have ongoing racist attitudes that are still pervasive.    While slavery may have some historical cause/effect on the present day I'd think continuing racism is a bigger factor.   


On the point of Section 8 housing, this is purely anecdotal, but the house next door to me has at various times been rented to people on section 8.     In all cases the section 8 tenants  have been quieter and better behaved.   When the house has been rented at "market" rates it's often had much worse tenants.    My only beef with S8 is that the rent is half again more than the "market" and more than double (closer to triple) what I was paying for Principle and Interest on my mortgage.   As a taxpayer I can see the wisdom of simply buying families a home rather than paying their rent -cheaper in the long run.   
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 04:39:06 PM by ChrisLansing »

Bakari

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I've said this like 4 times in this thread: mandatory and free preschool and kindergarten.
(along with a bunch of other educational stuff)

Recently enacted in Oklahoma, of all places.  We'll get to see in a decade what effect it has on graduation and college enrollment among the poor.


Someone, don't remember who off hand, suggested zoning and housing laws designed to decentralize poverty.

Decriminalization (of all drug use) would probably be less insignificant than you imply: drug use is more or less similar across races, but blacks are between 3 and 10 times more likely to be arrested and/or convicted for it (depending on jurisdiction). Of prisoners there for drug offenses, almost half are Black.  1/3 of Black men go to prison at least once, and 20% of Blacks sent to prison are for drug charges.

Gin1984

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To go somewhat off the thread (or maybe not), I have never understood this whole "Roots" thing.  I certainly don't know, and don't care to know, any of my ancestry further back than grandparents, and never felt the worse for it. 


I personally feel the same way, but I'm sure it's largely because I'm white and can afford to ignore my "roots".   Other whites don't care that I'm of Scots ancestry.   I'm not going to be denied a job because I'm Scots instead of Polish.   I'm not going to get beat up for walking through the German section of town (if there was a German section).   We don't hate the Welsh and favor the Austrians.   White is white.   

Historically some groups that are now "white" were not always included.   If there is such a thing as the "melting pot" it's largely benefited whites and melted us into a single undifferentiated group.    It's fine to celebrate one's "heritage" but that can be neatly folded and put away in a drawer when the party is over, if one is white.   Being German (Polish, Irish, Scots, etc. )  isn't going to be an issue in day to day life.     

It might be very different for people of color who have not yet been accepted as equal members of the larger society.   

Quote
This is the cultural caricature of what the majority of white America has come to understand of the true plight.

Quote
Well, no, which is why my above digression really wasn't all that much off thread.  It's the whole question of whether history several generations and more back is really a plight today, or an excuse.

Well it certainly isn't completely in the category of excuse.   Black people (and other minorities) are still treated unequally.   

I do wonder if talking about slavery is on point when we in fact have ongoing racist attitudes that are still pervasive.    While slavery may have some historical cause/effect on the present day I'd think continuing racism is a bigger factor.   


On the point of Section 8 housing, this is purely anecdotal, but the house next door to me has at various times been rented to people on section 8.     In all cases the section 8 tenants  have been quieter and better behaved.   When the house has been rented at "market" rates it's often had much worse tenants.    My only beef with S8 is that the rent is half again more than the "market" and more than double (closer to triple) what I was paying for Principle and Interest on my mortgage.   As a taxpayer I can see the wisdom of simply buying families a home rather than paying their rent -cheaper in the long run.
I have a friend here in Buffalo who I invited to my house for a BBQ.  Very classy young man who was working his way through college and therefore did not have a car.  When I told him where I lived (a town right outside of buffalo) his looked me like I was nuts and said "Gin, I can't go there, I'll be stopped."  And he is right.  I swear our cops patrol the border between the two towns better than the US/Mexican border is patrolled.  Almost every single day I see black men pulled over or sitting on the curb with cops from my town.  If I want my friend to come over, I have to go get him and drive him out.  That is rediculous.

Constance Noring

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@Gin 1984

LOL, but seriously - thank you both for your contributions to this topic :)

How you doin'?

(I'm glad my contributions have been helpful :D)


To go somewhat off the thread (or maybe not), I have never understood this whole "Roots" thing.  I certainly don't know, and don't care to know, any of my ancestry further back than grandparents, and never felt the worse for it. 


I personally feel the same way, but I'm sure it's largely because I'm white and can afford to ignore my "roots".   Other whites don't care that I'm of Scots ancestry.   I'm not going to be denied a job because I'm Scots instead of Polish.   I'm not going to get beat up for walking through the German section of town (if there was a German section).   We don't hate the Welsh and favor the Austrians.   White is white.   

Historically some groups that are now "white" were not always included.   If there is such a thing as the "melting pot" it's largely benefited whites and melted us into a single undifferentiated group.    It's fine to celebrate one's "heritage" but that can be neatly folded and put away in a drawer when the party is over, if one is white.   Being German (Polish, Irish, Scots, etc. )  isn't going to be an issue in day to day life.     

It might be very different for people of color who have not yet been accepted as equal members of the larger society.

This is a very good point, and I'd add to it to for marginalized ethnic groups, keeping that link to the past close to one's heart helps reinforce group identity, for better and for worse.

For the specific case of African-Americans, kidnapping, forced immigration, and sparse record keeping meant their family history would be in many cases a blank slate. Add to that the fact that slaveholders sought to reinforce their slaves' status by forbidding African cultural, social, and religious practices, and you have the development of a culture that has had to fight for every scrap of continuity it can get.

Quote
I do wonder if talking about slavery is on point when we in fact have ongoing racist attitudes that are still pervasive.    While slavery may have some historical cause/effect on the present day I'd think continuing racism is a bigger factor.

I like to say that the study of history is like therapy for the human race. We talk about the things that happened to us in the past so we can figure out why we do what we do in the present. In order to understand those racist attitudes, we have to go back to the why. And in this case, the why is, in its simplest form, slavery.

(The question of which came first, racism or slavery, is a bit of a chicken and egg question with historians - I lean towards slavery being first, and I'll expound on that if anyone's interested, but I don't want to make anyone nod off)

I've said this like 4 times in this thread: mandatory and free preschool and kindergarten.
(along with a bunch of other educational stuff)

Recently enacted in Oklahoma, of all places.  We'll get to see in a decade what effect it has on graduation and college enrollment among the poor.


Someone, don't remember who off hand, suggested zoning and housing laws designed to decentralize poverty.

Decriminalization (of all drug use) would probably be less insignificant than you imply: drug use is more or less similar across races, but blacks are between 3 and 10 times more likely to be arrested and/or convicted for it (depending on jurisdiction). Of prisoners there for drug offenses, almost half are Black.  1/3 of Black men go to prison at least once, and 20% of Blacks sent to prison are for drug charges.

And getting us to the point of being willing to make those changes starts with being honest with ourselves about why it's necessary.

Also, being in Oklahoma, I'll be very interested to see how the free preschool program works out in the real world, because this state hasn't exactly distinguished itself in the realm of political decency lately. I hope to be surprised.

eta: If you've got an hour and change, check out Ta-Nehesis Coates talk about his reparations article. It's some good stuff.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 07:27:41 PM by Constance Noring »

Blindsquirrel

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 To the poster in Buffalo, check out www.policemisconduct.net for a real education of how often people get DWBs. (Driving while black). Sad fact but my black friends get pulled over routinely in the hick township that I live in, I think my township was 97.5% white in the last census. Go figure.

RootofGood

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White, educated wealthy dude checking in, so discount my comments as you see fit. 

I don't see the wealth disparities through a strictly race-based lens.  I think it's poverty begetting poverty.  Take, for example, poor white Appalachians that will most likely be poor white Appalachians in another generation (I come from them parts, so I speak from lots of anecdotal experience).  Same thing for those coming from the 'hood or the barrio.  It's a culture of poverty, and most of the role models aren't reading MMM. 

My wife is an immigrant from SE Asia and came to the US with the shirt on her back (and maybe a change of clothes) and literally not a pot to piss in.  Her and her four siblings have had very disparate outcomes growing up in America.  She's done the best, but the rest of her family have found varying levels of success (though only one I would describe as having any kind of financial comfort today, as in not living paycheck to paycheck).  Adversity can be overcome, but coming from a meager background puts up a lot of hurdles.  Being born to parents with little social capital or financial capital means you don't have mommy and daddy's friends to hire you in high school or provide a cushy internship during college.  If you even know college is an easy way to increase your earnings potential.  And if you can afford college. 

We live in an extremely racially diverse area where 90% of my kids' school isn't white.  They are mostly black and latino, with folks from every continent (except Antarctica and perhaps not Australia).  The recent immigrants or kids of recent immigrants seem to try hard and have parents that set high expectations (even if they don't always speak English very well or at all). Those that have been here for many generations seem to have given up or not have any will to take advantage of an awesome school with ample resources for people of all backgrounds.  Maybe you can pin the fault on systemic racism and oppression, but I'm no scholar of that area. 

But some of these young whippersnappers have developed the "not giving a fuck" attitude by first or second grade.  Like they were given a scan-tron sheet and skipped past "A - Go to College", "B - Finish High School", "C - Pick Up A Trade Or Skill" and while slouched in their seat with their #2 pencil held indifferently in their hand, they sloppily bubbled in "D - Don't Give a Fuck".  You want to say "Dammit, why'd you pick D?  That's the worst choice possible!  A, B, and C will make life so much easier!" 

But what can you do. It's sad.  Luckily, it's a relatively small minority of the kids (maybe 10-15% at my kids' school) and when you dig a little deeper, you get a picture that explains "why".  Kid is in foster care, or living with grandma because both parents are in jail.  Or living with an aunt because mom is in jail and dad bashes the kids' face in so she can't be with daddy any more.  Or the kid has some behavioral issue that might have been ameliorated with counseling and/or meds, but the parent(s) bubbled in "D" early in their own life, so didn't particularly care to be responsible for their own kids well being.  Just a few anecdotes that cross racial lines. 

I think poverty gets ingrained into these kids from an early age.  It's a self esteem issue.  It's systemic.  It's cultural.  I think blaming it solely on race is a cop out though.  There's absolutely racism, and it hurts non-majority kids to be sure.  But I would surmise the explanatory factors go beyond mere race.

I wish I could say "my best friend is black" to lend more credence to my observations, but sadly, I'd have to go to friend #10 or #11 before finding a black one so I'll have to stick with the Asian and Hispanic friends that rank higher on the list (which is admittedly mostly white). 

freeazabird

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What have your experiences been like as a mustachian of color?

Most people think Mustacianism is crazy. I have friends of all colors and they all equally find my frugalness ridiculous.

Do you feel as though your racial/ethnic background has played a part , either positively or negatively, in your pursuit of FI?

In part, it has had a negative impact. I run a business that sells to other businesses. I find that having a less wealthy social circle severely inhibits my ability to make business deals, regardless of the level of skill of myself and workforce. Growing my business would be tremendously easier if my personal contacts were wealthier. I think this is in part influenced by race, but also by class.


In your experience, what do you believe the solution(s) to be for eliminating the racial wealth gap?


1) Creating a culture that values thrift, saving, and productivity. This is important for all Americans, but there needs to be particular emphasis for minorities because as a group the consequences of not doing this are more severe. Parents need to pass this to their kids, and financially responsible people need to not be afraid to speak up when they encounter financially ridiculous behaviors.

2) Responsible childbearing

3) Living a socially integrated life at work, school, and in neighborhoods

4) Promoting the concept of FREE (or nearly free) self-education. Knowledge creates opportunities and good financial habits. Student loan debt is drowning a lot of Americans and minorities in particular. We must move away from the idea that all or most learning should occur in classrooms, particularly classrooms that you have to take out a ridiculous amount of debt to sit in.

5) Eliminating the concept of race. The concept of race only exists to reinforce racism. No race=no racism. People have a hard time giving up race in America. They are attached to it, and overly identify with it. When someone doesn't cooperate with the existing racial classification system it erks people.

6) More colorblind humping

jordanread

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I wasn't originally going to comment on this thread, as a way of implementing part of what I think the solution. Talking about an issue is usually beneficial, and can provide a solution, but the solution still needs to be implemented. I already have my thoughts on that, which is why I wasn't originally going to comment (more on that below). Bakari and I were having a different conversation that looped back to part of this thread, so I thought I'd chime in now.

Which brings us back to Constance's premise. We as a society on a whole need to address and honestly discuss some very uncomfortable topics regarding this country's history and exactly how our actions have directly contributed to shaping the society we have today.

Constance has some other comments kind of related to this, and I'll go into more detail when I respond to hers below. However, I think that Daley touched on an interesting point. The emphasis I added to his quote above is that point. Why is this such an uncomfortable topic? I don't take responsibility for anything someone else does, including my relatives, and I haven't contributed to the issue. It's history, it's fact, and how you feel doesn't change what actually happened, it only affects what you do going forward. I'm not advocating ignorance, but why can't we have a discussion about the history of slavery without all of the righteous indignation, anger, or guilt?


[...]  keeping that link to the past close to one's heart helps reinforce group identity, for better and for worse.

For the specific case of African-Americans, kidnapping, forced immigration, and sparse record keeping meant their family history would be in many cases a blank slate. Add to that the fact that slaveholders sought to reinforce their slaves' status by forbidding African cultural, social, and religious practices, and you have the development of a culture that has had to fight for every scrap of continuity it can get.

Being marginally anti-social, I don't quite get this on a personal level, but I guess I can understand that if one feels something was taken from them, regardless of the value, they will try to hold on to that. Predictable Irrationality at it's finest. But when someone is so set on differentiating themselves, regardless of the reason, is the results of that means they don't have the same networking opportunities really and issue that needs to be addressed?


Quote
I do wonder if talking about slavery is on point when we in fact have ongoing racist attitudes that are still pervasive.    While slavery may have some historical cause/effect on the present day I'd think continuing racism is a bigger factor.

I like to say that the study of history is like therapy for the human race. We talk about the things that happened to us in the past so we can figure out why we do what we do in the present. In order to understand those racist attitudes, we have to go back to the why. And in this case, the why is, in its simplest form, slavery.

I like the idea of history as therapy. But in this particular instance, I think the conversation itself may be causing more issues than it solves. I remember not knowing that racism was a thing until someone talked about how to stop it. I just assumed that someone who didn't recognize merit was just stupid...and I'm still right. Once we stop acknowledging it as some type of special thing that deserves extra attention, we can dismiss those who are racist as the idiots they are, and leave it at that. Hence my comments above regarding not originally participating in this thread.


I've said this like 4 times in this thread: mandatory and free preschool and kindergarten.
(along with a bunch of other educational stuff)

Recently enacted in Oklahoma, of all places.  We'll get to see in a decade what effect it has on graduation and college enrollment among the poor.


Someone, don't remember who off hand, suggested zoning and housing laws designed to decentralize poverty.

Decriminalization (of all drug use) would probably be less insignificant than you imply: drug use is more or less similar across races, but blacks are between 3 and 10 times more likely to be arrested and/or convicted for it (depending on jurisdiction). Of prisoners there for drug offenses, almost half are Black.  1/3 of Black men go to prison at least once, and 20% of Blacks sent to prison are for drug charges.

And getting us to the point of being willing to make those changes starts with being honest with ourselves about why it's necessary.

Also, being in Oklahoma, I'll be very interested to see how the free preschool program works out in the real world, because this state hasn't exactly distinguished itself in the realm of political decency lately. I hope to be surprised.

eta: If you've got an hour and change, check out Ta-Nehesis Coates talk about his reparations article. It's some good stuff.

I'll check out the link (but haven't yet), and will comment after that. Once again, why is it necessary? To me it seems as if people are feeling guilty about history. The video might provide some insight, and I'll touch back later. Until I do, I'll leave this short clip that started my thinking on the subject back in 2005...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s

Also, I don't mean to come across like a dick (more than usual) and I got a bit rushed towards the end there. Haven't caught FIRE yet, so I'm at work :-).

Jamesqf

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To the poster in Buffalo, check out www.policemisconduct.net for a real education of how often people get DWBs. (Driving while black). Sad fact but my black friends get pulled over routinely in the hick township that I live in, I think my township was 97.5% white in the last census. Go figure.

Why do you think it's only black people that get pulled over?  It's far more a case of Driving While Poor: between the ages of say 18-35, when I was poor, I was stopped by cops on a regular basis, hauled to jail 3 times, and forced to fork over a large (for me) cash payment a couple of more times to avoid jail.

As I keep asking, when's my white privilege going to show up?

Bakari

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Indeed, it looks like only 2 out 10 of the cases on the front page of http://www.policemisconduct.net/ involve black suspects, both of whom had committed crime and were fleeing the police.  Not that that action justifies getting shot, but def. not cases of DWB

I am lucky enough to live in one of the more socially progressive areas of the country, so maybe its worse other places, but I have never been stopped when I wasn't clearly (and usually knowingly) breaking a traffic law.

The arrest and conviction statistics do indicate some bias - with much more showing up in conviction rates - which is up to randomly selected juries, and therefor represents the collected affects of individual prejudice, not anything systemic or institutional.

At the same time (and partially fueled by that last fact, along with history), there is definitely an effect of people seeing what they expect to see:
If a white person gets stopped for going 5mph over the limit, they think "the cops must have a quota" (which, btw, is false, though it could affect advancement).
If a black person gets pulled over for going 5mph over the limit, they think "he just stopped me because I'm black".
The reality is, both of them were breaking the law.  That's why they got pulled over.

Pure anecdote, disregard as you see fit, but I've witnessed first hand a lot of cop/citizen interactions, and I'd say the single biggest variable in how it goes is the attitude the citizen/suspect presents, usually reflecting how they feel about police in general.
Chris Rock sum it up really well: http://youtu.be/uj0mtxXEGE8

The really unfortunate thing is that the more well-meaning activists keep repeating tropes about profiling and DWB, the more Black youth are likely to react to cops like the "don't"s in Chris' public service message, and it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 05:55:24 PM by Bakari »

Gin1984

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Indeed, it looks like only 2 out 10 of the cases on the front page of http://www.policemisconduct.net/ involve black suspects, both of whom had committed crime and were fleeing the police.  Not that that action justifies getting shot, but def. not cases of DWB

I am lucky enough to live in one of the more socially progressive areas of the country, so maybe its worse other places, but I have never beet stopped when I wasn't clearly (and usually knowingly) breaking a traffic law.


The arrest and conviction statistics do indicate some bias - with much more showing up in conviction rates - which is up to randomly selected juries, and therefor represents the collected affects of individual prejudice, not anything systemic or institutional.

At the same time (and partially fueled by that last fact, along with history), there is definitely an effect of people seeing what they expect to see:
If a white person gets stopped for going 5mph over the limit, they think "the cops must have a quota" (which, btw, is false, though it could affect advancement).
If a black person gets pulled over for going 5mph over the limit, they think "he just stopped me because I'm black".
The reality is, both of them were breaking the law.  That's why they got pulled over.

Pure anecdote, disregard as you see fit, but I've witnessed first hand a lot of cop/citizen interactions, and I'd say the single biggest variable in how it goes is the attitude the citizen/suspect presents, usually reflecting how they feel about police in general.
Chris Rock sum it up really well: http://youtu.be/uj0mtxXEGE8

The really unfortunate thing is that the more well-meaning activists keep repeating tropes about profiling and DWB, the more Black youth are likely to react to cops like the "don't"s in Chris' public service message, and it becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.
You are lucky because I was just little ways away from you (San Jose) and my husband and my guy friends got pulled over quite a bit extra.  And I "nicely" had a very easy comparison when we moved to Buffalo.  In the four years we have lived here, my husband has not been pulled over, in the year and half prior living in San Jose while I was in the car he was pulled over 4 times.   

Jamesqf

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The arrest and conviction statistics do indicate some bias - with much more showing up in conviction rates - which is up to randomly selected juries, and therefor represents the collected affects of individual prejudice, not anything systemic or institutional.

At the same time (and partially fueled by that last fact, along with history), there is definitely an effect of people seeing what they expect to see:

Yes.  I certainly wouldn't claim that there is NO bias, I just think it's much less prevalent than some people would like us to believe.  Being white is NOT a magic get-out-of-jail-free card.  It'd be interesting to see the same arrest/conviction stats sorted by annual income rather than race.

hybrid

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The arrest and conviction statistics do indicate some bias - with much more showing up in conviction rates - which is up to randomly selected juries, and therefor represents the collected affects of individual prejudice, not anything systemic or institutional.

At the same time (and partially fueled by that last fact, along with history), there is definitely an effect of people seeing what they expect to see:

Yes.  I certainly wouldn't claim that there is NO bias, I just think it's much less prevalent than some people would like us to believe.  Being white is NOT a magic get-out-of-jail-free card.  It'd be interesting to see the same arrest/conviction stats sorted by annual income rather than race.

The ability to hire a competent defense attorney (which can run into the thousands or even tens of thousands) makes a big difference. A friend of mine was arrested for one of the most dumbass reasons I can imagine, and without a good attorney he was certainly looking at some jail time. He avoided jail, but his wallet was about 11K lighter if I remember correctly, and it was money well spent, as he would have lost his good job if he had served time (I think he ended up with a bunch of community service instead).

A good attorney can "play the game" better than an overwhelmed public defendant or worse, the dumb individual that refuses to lawyer up at all.

Milspecstache

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What other government action has been taken or suggested?

It seems like everyone agrees that part of the key is education.  How about school vouchers?  I would love to see parents get involved, trying to get their 'money's worth', and choose schools that would now compete for federal money.

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Coming in waaaay late (and now maybe off-topic) with some extra Canadian history: Although Canada technically got rid of slavery along with the rest of the British empire in 1834, the individual provinces had actually gotten rid of it much earlier. I'm pretty sure Ontario (Upper Canada) was first, in 1791, largely because the governor (Simcoe?) was personally opposed to slavery (he later worked for the Haitian government after its revolution). Nova Scotia took longer, in part because White Southern loyalists  got themselves made justices of the peace and twisted the law to coerce free(d) Blacks back into servitude (there are some awesome letters in the Public Archives of NS from Canadian-born lawyers talking about how to twist it back). Slavery definitely petered out in Nova Scotia largely because of climate (slave owners didn't want to feed people during six unproductive months). Ontario, not so much... its tobacco economy would have worked fine with slavery. It really became more of a way for Canadians to distinguish themselves from Americans.

wrt the Underground Railroad, estimates I've seen suggest that about 2/3 of everybody who came up here actually went back to the US after the Civil War, many of them to settle in what they were sure was going to be the new egalitarian area of Arkansas. The majority of Black Canadians are thus not descended from African Americans, but rather the families of immigrants from the Caribbean who came to Canada after we instituted merit-based immigration circa 1960 (and some Africans, and AA draft dodgers, and...). That's why so much of the racism discussion in Canada is tied to immigration. We save our scorpions-in-a-bottle hate-based racism for the First Nations.

fixer-upper

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To the poster in Buffalo, check out www.policemisconduct.net for a real education of how often people get DWBs. (Driving while black). Sad fact but my black friends get pulled over routinely in the hick township that I live in, I think my township was 97.5% white in the last census. Go figure.

Why do you think it's only black people that get pulled over?  It's far more a case of Driving While Poor: between the ages of say 18-35, when I was poor, I was stopped by cops on a regular basis, hauled to jail 3 times, and forced to fork over a large (for me) cash payment a couple of more times to avoid jail.

As I keep asking, when's my white privilege going to show up?

Driving a beater will get you pulled over much faster than a respectable car, as will driving a muscle car or something with lots of mods.  Many people are quick to say its racism, when its more about profiling the vehicle.

I can drive like a maniac in my little granny car, and the cops never even look my way.  If I did the same stuff in a car that stood out, I'd get pulled over twice a week.

Gin1984

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To the poster in Buffalo, check out www.policemisconduct.net for a real education of how often people get DWBs. (Driving while black). Sad fact but my black friends get pulled over routinely in the hick township that I live in, I think my township was 97.5% white in the last census. Go figure.

Why do you think it's only black people that get pulled over?  It's far more a case of Driving While Poor: between the ages of say 18-35, when I was poor, I was stopped by cops on a regular basis, hauled to jail 3 times, and forced to fork over a large (for me) cash payment a couple of more times to avoid jail.

As I keep asking, when's my white privilege going to show up?

Driving a beater will get you pulled over much faster than a respectable car, as will driving a muscle car or something with lots of mods.  Many people are quick to say its racism, when its more about profiling the vehicle.

I can drive like a maniac in my little granny car, and the cops never even look my way.  If I did the same stuff in a car that stood out, I'd get pulled over twice a week.
I've had a beater as a college kid and did not get pulled over more then than when I inherited my grandmother's corolla.  Maybe you would consider a 2003 corolla a beater too?

Zette

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What other government action has been taken or suggested?

It seems like everyone agrees that part of the key is education.  How about school vouchers?  I would love to see parents get involved, trying to get their 'money's worth', and choose schools that would now compete for federal money.

I think school vouchers would do a lot more than universal preschool.  Just the mere fact of getting to choose a school would likely get parents more involved and invested in making sure their child got a good education.  I think it would also eliminate a lot of the school violence, as parents would pull their kids from violent schools and put them somewhere safer.

Gin1984

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What other government action has been taken or suggested?

It seems like everyone agrees that part of the key is education.  How about school vouchers?  I would love to see parents get involved, trying to get their 'money's worth', and choose schools that would now compete for federal money.

I think school vouchers would do a lot more than universal preschool.  Just the mere fact of getting to choose a school would likely get parents more involved and invested in making sure their child got a good education.  I think it would also eliminate a lot of the school violence, as parents would pull their kids from violent schools and put them somewhere safer.
But then the kids whose parents don't care get more screwed.  My town has a free after school program complete with tutoring.  My neighbors would not send their kids because they would have to pick them up at the end of the day. 

Zette

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My other thought is that if there were the equivalent of Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman who appealed to the low-income black community, it would make a lot of difference.

Milspecstache

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What other government action has been taken or suggested?

It seems like everyone agrees that part of the key is education.  How about school vouchers?  I would love to see parents get involved, trying to get their 'money's worth', and choose schools that would now compete for federal money.

I think school vouchers would do a lot more than universal preschool.  Just the mere fact of getting to choose a school would likely get parents more involved and invested in making sure their child got a good education.  I think it would also eliminate a lot of the school violence, as parents would pull their kids from violent schools and put them somewhere safer.
But then the kids whose parents don't care get more screwed.  My town has a free after school program complete with tutoring.  My neighbors would not send their kids because they would have to pick them up at the end of the day.

This is the great question...  For parents who don't care I'm not sure there is much chance for the children.  However, for those parents who do care, those are the children that we should be able to easily reach and truly rescue from poverty by helping them achieve a good education.  Why do we make it so hard on parents who do care?

Constance Noring

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What other government action has been taken or suggested?

It seems like everyone agrees that part of the key is education.  How about school vouchers?  I would love to see parents get involved, trying to get their 'money's worth', and choose schools that would now compete for federal money.

I think school vouchers would do a lot more than universal preschool.  Just the mere fact of getting to choose a school would likely get parents more involved and invested in making sure their child got a good education.  I think it would also eliminate a lot of the school violence, as parents would pull their kids from violent schools and put them somewhere safer.
But then the kids whose parents don't care get more screwed.  My town has a free after school program complete with tutoring.  My neighbors would not send their kids because they would have to pick them up at the end of the day.

This is the great question...  For parents who don't care I'm not sure there is much chance for the children.  However, for those parents who do care, those are the children that we should be able to easily reach and truly rescue from poverty by helping them achieve a good education.  Why do we make it so hard on parents who do care?

And who knows how many parents might start caring if education and childcare became less of a burden?

Zette

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Just having to make a choice might make some care a little.

The schools that got abandoned by the parents who do care would at least get smaller.  A smaller bad school is probably more manageable than a bigger bad school.  The hope is that the schools who are losing enrollment, would look around and figure out what the schools gaining enrollment are doing differently. 

Zette

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I would be curious to hear what attitudes and social conventions make it hard for middle-class minorities to adopt frugality.

Bakari

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Just having to make a choice might make some care a little.

The schools that got abandoned by the parents who do care would at least get smaller.  A smaller bad school is probably more manageable than a bigger bad school.  The hope is that the schools who are losing enrollment, would look around and figure out what the schools gaining enrollment are doing differently.


What they are doing differently is having kids whose parents "care" (i.e. have the time and education to be proactive and involved).

Parents who care can already choose different schools/classrooms, or just tutor their own kids, or get involved with the PTA, or volunteer to help out.  Its all the many kids whose parents went to the same bad schools and don't know how to help and/or are working 50-80 hours a week and have nothing left to give who make the bad schools bad in the first place.

"would look around and figure out what the schools gaining enrollment are doing differently." implies the teachers and principal are somehow deliberately doing a bad job, sort of like the idea behind reducing funding for bad test scores.  Humans love to be able to place blame on some individual, but there isn't much evidence to support the idea that the school itself make a bigger difference than the socio-economic class of the students.

I think school vouchers would do a lot more than universal preschool.


This isn't a matter of personal opinion:

http://works.bepress.com/william_barnett/3/
http://nieer.org/resources/research/PreschoolLastingEffects.pdf
http://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/docs/05_03_01.pdf
http://www.azchildren.org/MyFiles/PDF/_preschool_rocks_.pdf
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/06/building-better-kids-its-preschools-stupid

Vouchers have shown some promise in some places implemented, but when they only cover part of the tuition at average private schools, they are only going to increase the gap between the poorest and the lower middle class who can afford to pay the difference.  They also won't do much good for the student who is already so far behind and/or misbehaving so much that they don't get accepted into the good private schools (which means those that do use vouchers are already self-selected, making the results seem artificially good if you only look at the outcomes of those who use the vouchers)

« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:39:43 PM by Bakari »

Cressida

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Vouchers have shown some promise in some places implemented, but when they only cover part of the tuition at average private schools, they are only going to increase the gap between the poorest and the lower middle class who can afford to pay the difference.  They also won't do much good for the student who is already so far behind and/or misbehaving so much that they don't get accepted into the good private schools (which means those that do use vouchers are already self-selected, making the results seem artificially good if you only look at the outcomes of those who use the vouchers)

I'm with you, Bakari. Universal preschool is high on my list of desirable outcomes. I do not have children, but I'd be happy to help pay for it. They say it might be happening here in Seattle if the stars align.

rocketpj

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Interesting stuff.  As yet another white observer I don't have much to add, but please keep talking.

Cressida

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I'm with you, Bakari. Universal preschool is high on my list of desirable outcomes. I do not have children, but I'd be happy to help pay for it. They say it might be happening here in Seattle if the stars align.
Universal Preschool isn't an outcome.  It is a means to one.  The best predictor of it's effectiveness is the earlier version,  ie.. Head Start.   The secret sauce is not one more program,  unless you are drawing your own salary,  pension and benefits from that program.

Wait, what? Head Start isn't an earlier version of preschool - it's a means-tested one. I'm saying that preschool should be public and open to everyone. It would be a huge help to working parents.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!