Author Topic: The poverty line  (Read 49953 times)

libertarian4321

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2015, 06:56:40 PM »
However, we've all heard the stories of people on government assistance driving nice cars, surfing on smartphones and buying cable packages.

I think those stories are mostly bullshit. They tend to come from someone's grandma in the form of emails with subject lines that begin "RE:RE:RE:RER:FW:FW:FW:FW:RE:FW:RE".

That's not to say that I haven't known the occasional welfare recipient who has a data plan and a Netflix subscription, but life on welfare sucks. If they need that to distract from their troubles, I'm not going to fuss about it. Especially when I'm living on a six figure income.

It's not "bullshit" at all.

You can see it for yourself if you want to.

Volunteer for an organization like "Rebuilding Together" that helps fix up homes of the poor.   Since you will be in the home of the poor, you will quickly get a pretty good idea of how the "poor" live.

Some really are in dire straits and need all the help they can get.

Others, not so much.

I guarantee it won't be long before you come across a home/shack that is so run down it looks like it's going to topple over, yet they have a 55" TV, DirecTV, and Xbox.  The adults and kids will have smart phones.  They may even drive a nice car or SUV.

I actually came across one of these shacks once that didn't even have a functioning hot water heater.  Installing one was part of the work we did- or, at least, the professional volunteer did- I don't have that kind of skill).  But it had a set up similar to what I described in the last paragraph.

I also remember that while we were there, the family ordered KFC for lunch.  Not a big deal for most folks, I guess, but KFC ain't cheap.  For the $20+ they spent on that meal bucket, they could have bought enough staples to feed the family for a week.




Daisy

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2015, 07:07:25 PM »
With annual basic living expenses of under $15,000, I'm sure I fall below the poverty line. 
....

Hell, I'm pretty sure that MMM Pete and his family ALSO live below the poverty line for a family of 3. 

Unless you have someone else in your household included in that $15k, neither you nor MMM are living below the poverty line. http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/15poverty.cfm

But you need to make sure housing expense is included in your costs to see what a typical person living below the poverty line would live like. For MMM it sounds like rent on his house would be doubling his budget.

And keep in mind that people under the poverty line doesn't mean everyone is 99%. There are many who are at 15%, 23%, etc. That's very little income.

And RTW probably has a paid off car too. And money in reserves to cover an emergency, as I don't think the $15k covers anything more than the "basic" stuff. So need a little buffer for replacing household appliances, fixes around the home, car messes up and you need a big repair, have an accident and have to pay out of pocket for doctor and therapy sessions (assuming you are paying for health insurance) until the deductible is met, set aside funds for a car replacement, taxes, etc...RTW would probably be over $15k I am guessing.

ltt

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2015, 07:44:39 PM »
Poverty line is pretty arbitrary.   In many cases it is a tool used to determine who qualifies for Government benefits. 

There are percentages of poverty 120%,  140% etc.   These numbers are used to determine certain Government program benefits.   

For example,  a $40K income qualifies for the free and reduced lunch program.   That is why something like 80% of the kids in my state are qualified.  (it is really a joke since the school already charges $15,000 per year per student.  One would think they could provide a hot $2 lunch at that rate?)(schools like to get that free and reduced lunch statistic up as high as they can because it qualifies the schools for additional grants and funding)

At certain poverty levels in rural areas one qualifies for the USDA rural development program which provides 1% 33 year loans at 105% of property value.   So in our area one can buy a 60K house for $300 a month including taxes and insurance.   A 60K house around here can be pretty nice.   


I happen to work in a field where most all my clients are well below the poverty level. 

Here is one example Judy---

Judy has an $850 monthly SSI income

Her expenses are as follows:

Rent $140  (nice two bedroom subsidized low income apartment with a yard)
Cable $120
Utilities $90
Phone $50
Food $150  ( she receives $90 in food stamps which is more than enough but she spends a lot extra and weighs a lot)
Medical $0   (Medicaid)
Misc/Discretionary -  $300

As you can see,  she has a whole lot of "fun" money.  So much so that we have to work to keep her checking below $1,000 to keep her qualified for Medicaid.  If she wasn't  spending money on cable, cell phone and fat food she would have $600 per month in discretionary money.  Her transportation is provided free to her.

I'll let you decide if she is poor or not --- but I will tell you she has no worries and is guaranteed this level of income for the rest of her life.  She is well below the stated poverty level but her lifestyle would be the envy of the rest of the world.

I'm sure it is different for many folks who are poor.   

Here is another example of Joe --

Joe has SSI income of $850 and Sheltered Workshop income of $250 per month. (he works 40 hours per week) So his after tax monthly income is $1,100.  He has two roommates and lives in a very nice double wide on several acres with and awesome covered deck. 

His expenses are as follows:

Rent/ute - $200
Phone/Cable -  $50
Medical - 0
Food above his food stamps -  $150
Clothes - 50

Discretionary =$650   We have to work hard to keep him below $1,000 in the bank.

He takes several nice vacations per year and spend lots of money on eating out and entertainment.   His lifestyle is low stress and abundant.

Is he poor?  You decide.  The government certainly qualifies him as poor.

As I say,  I'm sure it is vastly different for many people who are qualified as poor but many, in my experience,  many have similar situations as those mentioned above.

Neither of these folks smokes or drinks or is involved in drugs.


Being poor around here based on income and does not take into account -

Food stamps,  free lunches and breakfasts,  free medical care,  subsidized rent,  free cell phones,  free transportation,  Meals on Wheels,  free or subsidized childcare,  discounted entertainment,  food pantry,  etc...

There is a whole industry employing millions of people to support the "poor."   Many of these "poor" industry workers are paid by the government and have great retirement and benefit plans.    Without the "poor" they would be out of a job.   Without the "poor" Wal-Mart would be out of business.   


The poor are in fact a very important and vibrant part of our economy.   They keep the dollars moving around and keep those dollars flowing to China.   

Yes, this pretty much sums it up.  I've always said "poverty" is very hidden in the U.S.--to the point where you can be "rich."  In what other country can you be on food stamps and all other forms of assistance and drive up in your brand new shiny SUV.

firewalker

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2015, 09:52:38 PM »
All I can say is, if these examples of handling this problem are the best that developed countries can come up with, then this world doesnt stand a chance.

NICE!

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2015, 12:04:30 AM »
I actually came across one of these shacks once that didn't even have a functioning hot water heater.  Installing one was part of the work we did- or, at least, the professional volunteer did- I don't have that kind of skill).  But it had a set up similar to what I described in the last paragraph.

A water heater is by no means a necessity for life. Plenty of people live without them where I'm located. I've done it, it isn't a big deal. Is a cold shower a pain? Yep, but you get used to it. I'm sure 99% of Americans consider it a necessity, though. I don't think I've ever heard of someone in the developed world without hot water.

Again, this is all an aside to my point that we should just do Friedman's negative income tax. Everyone gets X in a tax credit from the government, say it is $20k or $25k. If you make more than that, you're starting to pay taxes.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 12:10:47 AM by NICE! »

2lazy2retire

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2015, 06:44:50 AM »
However, we've all heard the stories of people on government assistance driving nice cars, surfing on smartphones and buying cable packages.

I think those stories are mostly bullshit. They tend to come from someone's grandma in the form of emails with subject lines that begin "RE:RE:RE:RER:FW:FW:FW:FW:RE:FW:RE".

That's not to say that I haven't known the occasional welfare recipient who has a data plan and a Netflix subscription, but life on welfare sucks. If they need that to distract from their troubles, I'm not going to fuss about it. Especially when I'm living on a six figure income.

It's not "bullshit" at all.

You can see it for yourself if you want to.

Volunteer for an organization like "Rebuilding Together" that helps fix up homes of the poor.   Since you will be in the home of the poor, you will quickly get a pretty good idea of how the "poor" live.

Some really are in dire straits and need all the help they can get.

Others, not so much.

I guarantee it won't be long before you come across a home/shack that is so run down it looks like it's going to topple over, yet they have a 55" TV, DirecTV, and Xbox.  The adults and kids will have smart phones.  They may even drive a nice car or SUV.

I actually came across one of these shacks once that didn't even have a functioning hot water heater.  Installing one was part of the work we did- or, at least, the professional volunteer did- I don't have that kind of skill).  But it had a set up similar to what I described in the last paragraph.

I also remember that while we were there, the family ordered KFC for lunch.  Not a big deal for most folks, I guess, but KFC ain't cheap.  For the $20+ they spent on that meal bucket, they could have bought enough staples to feed the family for a week.

B@stards using my taxes to buy their kids an xbox

meanwhile


justajane

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2015, 07:09:51 AM »
B@stards using my taxes to buy their kids an xbox

meanwhile

Can't you be critical of both? I know I am.

ChrisLansing

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2015, 07:46:46 AM »
Quote
I agree that you can identify real poverty, and I also understand that each person will have their own view of what poverty is. I am curious if there is point where you can determine "Yes, you are in poverty, you need help" or "You just need a face punch. Get your crap together." My assumtion in that there is no way to delineate that.

But, theoretically, if it could be determined do you think it would change public opinion on government assistance?



I think the poor (however delineated) need our help, but also need a face punch.     Of course we use face punch in a figurative sense here, and maybe, figuratively, the poor need more of a hand holding.    We're dealing with a mindset and with people who have not had good examples to follow.   


But I keep thinking who needs a face punch more than the poor?    Who needs to more ruthlessly reduce their costs?   Who needs to manage every penny with utmost care?   Who needs to learn to save for emergencies?    (then of course they have assets which disqualify them for assistance)   

I don't get upset when I hear about a poor family with cable TV.  I just shake my head in wonder.    Why can't they see how much money they'd have if they didn't pay for cable?   

The poor need and deserve our financial assistance, but they also need a different mindset and education.   

SomedayStache

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2015, 08:18:49 AM »
The system sucks.
Example 1
I have a close family member who has some mild disabilities that have made it very hard for him to find and hold a job.  He was on SSDI,Medicaid (is it Medicaid?-I always get Medicaid/Medicare confused.), and foodstamps.  His parents co-signed for him to buy an 800 sq foot house figuring that someday that would provide him paid for living conditions once they were gone.  He was working part-time at Wal-mart and making ends meet with the aforementioned combo of SSDI/Medicaid/Foodstamps.

His parents main goal in life has always been to help their son become self-sufficient and able to support himself.  Things seemed to be heading in this way.  It sucked that he could never have more than $1000 or $2000 in the bank because he would make himself ineligible for many of the support programs - but his parents were able to be the bank for his emergency fund so that it wouldn't show up on paper. 

Then Wal-Mart offered him a full-time job.  He knew the additional hours would kick him over the income threshold and make him ineligible for most of the programs he was on.  But his parents pushed him to do it because "you can't depend on the system" "you've got to grow and stand on your own"  So he did. 

Over the course of the next few months he lost his SSDI, he lost his health insurance, and his food-stamp benefit dropped down to something laughable - like $30/month or something.  He was unable to pay his mortgage and the parents ended up making his mortgage payments for many months until finally selling his house.

He was able to live alone and make ends meet (barely) with the help of governmental programs.  Choosing to accept a full-time, low-paying job has forced him to sell his house and move back in with his parents.  He went without health insurance for about a year and now has crappy Wal-mart insurance.  There were a tense few months were it looked like he was going to owe the SSDI office many thousands of dollars in money they decided they had 'overpaid' him.  Thanks to his parents knowing how to navigate paperwork and having lawyer friends they were able to get him out of this-other similar people in similar situations probably don't have this kind of help.

The system sucks.  This guy isn't booksmart or streetsmart.  Even with highly intelligent and educated parents fighting for him he can't get ahead.  His future shows no signs of ever looking brighter.


Example 2
A couple I know was expecting their second child.  The main bread-winner (the mother) wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, but couldn't make things work on only her husband's salary.  These two people are street smart and book smart.  They can navigate paperwork and find ways to work around the system.  They did the math and figured that with help from WIC/food-stamps/low-income health insurance/other things that I don't know about... they could drop their income significantly but maintain their standard of living.  In order to drop their savings below the threshold ($1000 or $2000) they did a bunch of un-needed work on their house, paid off their cars, bought multiple new Ipads and Iphones and other electronics, went on a fun vacation. 

She quit her job.  He continued working part-time.  They now qualify for governmental help.  Of course things aren't easy and I know they've had to call on her parents to infuse them with cash a few times...but she intends to go back to work when the kids are in school.  So this is very temporary and is almost like a mini early retirement for them.  Their future looks bright, but they are very much gaming the system.

The system sucks.

mathlete

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2015, 08:27:29 AM »
It is a good idea.  But we will move towards it because it is a more FAIR system.  It doesn't have anything to do with "abundance".   We make our own money and levy taxes denominated in that money.  We have everything we need to pay everyone enough of those tax credits to supply themselves with a basic standard of living.

I think it has everything to do with abundance. Think of how bent out of shape the middle class (and even other poor people who) get when poor people get stuff for "free".

I don't think that the voting public will find UBI palatable until a good portion of the voting public is on the streets because robots took their jobs and are 100x more efficient.

Bob W

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2015, 09:16:02 AM »
I am interested in the negative tax discussion. 

Would someone like to start a separate post on this?  Would be interested to know if any countries are doing this and what the general acceptance would be?


forummm

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2015, 09:19:08 AM »
I am interested in the negative tax discussion. 

Would someone like to start a separate post on this?  Would be interested to know if any countries are doing this and what the general acceptance would be?

The US does it to some extent. The EITC.

forummm

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2015, 09:21:37 AM »
With annual basic living expenses of under $15,000, I'm sure I fall below the poverty line. 
....

Hell, I'm pretty sure that MMM Pete and his family ALSO live below the poverty line for a family of 3. 

Unless you have someone else in your household included in that $15k, neither you nor MMM are living below the poverty line. http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/15poverty.cfm

But you need to make sure housing expense is included in your costs to see what a typical person living below the poverty line would live like. For MMM it sounds like rent on his house would be doubling his budget.

And keep in mind that people under the poverty line doesn't mean everyone is 99%. There are many who are at 15%, 23%, etc. That's very little income.

RTW, since you disclosed on another thread that you actually do have a 2 person household, but that your wife also has an additional $15k or so in expenses, you are actually about double the poverty line for a 2 person household.

2lazy2retire

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2015, 09:24:57 AM »
With annual basic living expenses of under $15,000, I'm sure I fall below the poverty line. 
....

Hell, I'm pretty sure that MMM Pete and his family ALSO live below the poverty line for a family of 3. 

Unless you have someone else in your household included in that $15k, neither you nor MMM are living below the poverty line. http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/15poverty.cfm

But you need to make sure housing expense is included in your costs to see what a typical person living below the poverty line would live like. For MMM it sounds like rent on his house would be doubling his budget.

And keep in mind that people under the poverty line doesn't mean everyone is 99%. There are many who are at 15%, 23%, etc. That's very little income.

RTW, since you disclosed on another thread that you actually do have a 2 person household, but that your wife also has an additional $15k or so in expenses, you are actually about double the poverty line for a 2 person household.

SSSSssshhhhh - whats wrong with you? - less hits for his blog

NICE!

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2015, 09:51:00 AM »
I am interested in the negative tax discussion. 

Would someone like to start a separate post on this?  Would be interested to know if any countries are doing this and what the general acceptance would be?

The idea is often tied with a VAT, which most people view as a more effective tax since it doesn't discourage work. Environmentalists love it because it discourages consumption. It is regressive in nature, but that's why you provide a big give-back and don't tax things like food.

I'll think about posting it, but I didn't fare too well in the last philosophical post I did.

act0fgod

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2015, 10:07:06 AM »
Take Salt Lake City for instance -- They were spending about 17,000 per year in programs,  band aides and community support workers to address their homelessness situation.   Someone has the bright idea to just give the homeless a home.   That only costs 7,000 per year. 

Yeah but we live in a society where someone sees $7000 housing costs being provided for someone and says I want my $7000 for housing.  Many of the posts in this thread directly make such statements or allude to the fact.  I admit it's tough to just worry about me.

2lazy2retire

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2015, 10:16:14 AM »
I am interested in the negative tax discussion. 

Would someone like to start a separate post on this?  Would be interested to know if any countries are doing this and what the general acceptance would be?

The idea is often tied with a VAT, which most people view as a more effective tax since it doesn't discourage work. Environmentalists love it because it discourages consumption. It is regressive in nature, but that's why you provide a big give-back and don't tax things like food.

I'll think about posting it, but I didn't fare too well in the last philosophical post I did.

VAT - any tax on consumption should be well met on here

Jack

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2015, 11:05:27 AM »
I agree with your statement "there will always be poor because it is a movable target relative to other people" just like there will always be a middle class. I hate when people say the middle class is shrinking.

That's not true; it's entirely possible for the middle class to shrink (or be eliminated entirely).

Let me construct an artificial example: assume "society" contains 10 people. Nine of those people have 1% of the wealth each, and the 10th person has the remaining 91%.

The median wealth is 1%.
The mean wealth is 10%.

Nobody in this society has anywhere near the mean wealth, so who's middle class? The answer is nobody.

Similarly, who's the middle class on this chart?


AlanStache

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2015, 11:20:40 AM »
Great discussion.

Hard limits?!?!?!? WTF?  In my 9-5 engineering job I work with a lot of control systems and very much dislike and try to ovoid hard bounds, things work much better and smoother with transition regions.   This might be part of why the Chinese have done so much lately, there political higher ups are stacked with engineers, not lawyers and businessmen :-)

There is a big difference between normally living on little spending with good savings and living on little with no savings.  Last friday my windshield developed a crack at eye level, looked around and scheduled a repair.  Sunday I sprained my ankle running did not think twice about the cost to go to Urgent Care with my copay and insurance.  If I had no savings these two happening at the same time would have caused much trouble but I am fortunate in that they are just annoyances.

It seems many here agree that many 'poor' could use some form of face punch (in addition to govt reform), who would be best able to provide this education?  Seems way to many would be distrustful of a government educator telling them how to spend "there" money.  Who has the incentive and credibility to help?  It seems that someone would need to provide (mandate?) this education as the poor with interweb access have not learnt this on there own.  (Edit: I am referring here to adult education, spending 0.5hr talking to 16 year olds about emergency funds seems idiotic.)

Bob W: check out http://www.reddit.com/r/basicincome/wiki/index has come up many times here in MMM.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 11:31:36 AM by AlanStache »

forummm

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2015, 11:30:28 AM »
I agree with your statement "there will always be poor because it is a movable target relative to other people" just like there will always be a middle class. I hate when people say the middle class is shrinking.

That's not true; it's entirely possible for the middle class to shrink (or be eliminated entirely).

Let me construct an artificial example: assume "society" contains 10 people. Nine of those people have 1% of the wealth each, and the 10th person has the remaining 91%.

The median wealth is 1%.
The mean wealth is 10%.

Nobody in this society has anywhere near the mean wealth, so who's middle class? The answer is nobody.

In practice, this doesn't happen.

But understand your point that middle class is never well defined.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 11:32:24 AM by forummm »

infogoon

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2015, 12:59:31 PM »
Take Salt Lake City for instance -- They were spending about 17,000 per year in programs,  band aides and community support workers to address their homelessness situation.   Someone has the bright idea to just give the homeless a home.   That only costs 7,000 per year. 

Yeah but we live in a society where someone sees $7000 housing costs being provided for someone and says I want my $7000 for housing.  Many of the posts in this thread directly make such statements or allude to the fact.  I admit it's tough to just worry about me.

We have a program here in Buffalo ("Say Yes to Education") that pays the university tuition for graduates of the public or charter schools in the city. Despite the fact that the program is privately funded by local charitable foundations, not government spending, the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the suburbs when it was launched was absolutely deafening.

Even if it costs them nothing, even if it makes absolutely no change to their lives at all, people hate to see anyone else get something for free.

johnhenry

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2015, 03:30:43 PM »
I agree with your statement "there will always be poor because it is a movable target relative to other people" just like there will always be a middle class. I hate when people say the middle class is shrinking.

That's not true; it's entirely possible for the middle class to shrink (or be eliminated entirely).

Let me construct an artificial example: assume "society" contains 10 people. Nine of those people have 1% of the wealth each, and the 10th person has the remaining 91%.

The median wealth is 1%.
The mean wealth is 10%.

Nobody in this society has anywhere near the mean wealth, so who's middle class? The answer is nobody.

In practice, this doesn't happen.

But understand your point that middle class is never well defined.

What do you mean when you say "in practice, this doesn't happen." ??  Did you see the 2007 chart with the post?  That's reality, and it's much more ridiculous than his fictitious example.


NICE!

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2015, 04:51:46 PM »
Seems way to many would be distrustful of a government educator telling them how to spend "there" money. 

What is "there" money? I assume you mean their but I'm a bit confused since you put it in quotations.

forummm

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2015, 05:12:26 PM »
I agree with your statement "there will always be poor because it is a movable target relative to other people" just like there will always be a middle class. I hate when people say the middle class is shrinking.

That's not true; it's entirely possible for the middle class to shrink (or be eliminated entirely).

Let me construct an artificial example: assume "society" contains 10 people. Nine of those people have 1% of the wealth each, and the 10th person has the remaining 91%.

The median wealth is 1%.
The mean wealth is 10%.

Nobody in this society has anywhere near the mean wealth, so who's middle class? The answer is nobody.

In practice, this doesn't happen.

But understand your point that middle class is never well defined.

What do you mean when you say "in practice, this doesn't happen." ??  Did you see the 2007 chart with the post?  That's reality, and it's much more ridiculous than his fictitious example.

I guess that was ambiguous. I should have been more specific. When there are 310 million people, there is a substantial gradation from 0$ (or negative I suppose) to mega bucks. You won't have such a large gap between people. Yes, the the "rich" (however we define that term) can end up with a supermajority of the wealth. But there are still a lot of people all along the spectrum in the "middle" wherever that is defined.

Jack

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2015, 05:37:16 PM »
I agree with your statement "there will always be poor because it is a movable target relative to other people" just like there will always be a middle class. I hate when people say the middle class is shrinking.

That's not true; it's entirely possible for the middle class to shrink (or be eliminated entirely).

Let me construct an artificial example: assume "society" contains 10 people. Nine of those people have 1% of the wealth each, and the 10th person has the remaining 91%.

The median wealth is 1%.
The mean wealth is 10%.

Nobody in this society has anywhere near the mean wealth, so who's middle class? The answer is nobody.

In practice, this doesn't happen.

But understand your point that middle class is never well defined.

What do you mean when you say "in practice, this doesn't happen." ??  Did you see the 2007 chart with the post?  That's reality, and it's much more ridiculous than his fictitious example.

I guess that was ambiguous. I should have been more specific. When there are 310 million people, there is a substantial gradation from 0$ (or negative I suppose) to mega bucks. You won't have such a large gap between people. Yes, the the "rich" (however we define that term) can end up with a supermajority of the wealth. But there are still a lot of people all along the spectrum in the "middle" wherever that is defined.

I was at work when I posted that pie chart, but it was really just a poor substitute for what I wanted to post. This video illustrates what people mean when they talk about "the shrinking middle class:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

(By the way, this video, which for me showed as the "up next" video, is also very interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 05:39:02 PM by Jack »

forummm

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #75 on: May 13, 2015, 05:57:18 PM »
I was at work when I posted that pie chart, but it was really just a poor substitute for what I wanted to post. This video illustrates what people mean when they talk about "the shrinking middle class:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

(By the way, this video, which for me showed as the "up next" video, is also very interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCvf8E7V1g)

I think the top 80 wealthiest Americans have as much money between them has the bottom 50% of Americans combined.

The wealth distribution is problematic for a number of reasons. One of which is that people in the middle class will spend their money, thereby increasing economic activity. When the middle class doesn't have money to spend, the economy will be slower.

ChrisLansing

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2015, 08:08:06 PM »

It seems many here agree that many 'poor' could use some form of face punch (in addition to govt reform), who would be best able to provide this education?  Seems way to many would be distrustful of a government educator telling them how to spend "there" money.  Who has the incentive and credibility to help?  It seems that someone would need to provide (mandate?) this education as the poor with interweb access have not learnt this on there own.  (Edit: I am referring here to adult education, spending 0.5hr talking to 16 year olds about emergency funds seems idiotic.)


Good question.   Wish I had a good answer.   

There will need to be adult ed, but I don't think it needs to be exclusively adult ed.    I'm thinking most of the people who post here, and have kids, are already teaching some of these principles, mainly by example.    We'd need to teach poor kids little bits of the philosophy over an extended period of time.   Long term success might be achieved by teaching kids.   

Kids or adults, you ask a good question - who would poor people trust ?    We might just have to try different things and see what happens. 




2lazy2retire

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #77 on: May 14, 2015, 05:59:56 AM »

It seems many here agree that many 'poor' could use some form of face punch (in addition to govt reform), who would be best able to provide this education?  Seems way to many would be distrustful of a government educator telling them how to spend "there" money.  Who has the incentive and credibility to help?  It seems that someone would need to provide (mandate?) this education as the poor with interweb access have not learnt this on there own.  (Edit: I am referring here to adult education, spending 0.5hr talking to 16 year olds about emergency funds seems idiotic.)


Good question.   Wish I had a good answer.   

There will need to be adult ed, but I don't think it needs to be exclusively adult ed.    I'm thinking most of the people who post here, and have kids, are already teaching some of these principles, mainly by example.    We'd need to teach poor kids little bits of the philosophy over an extended period of time.   Long term success might be achieved by teaching kids.   

Kids or adults, you ask a good question - who would poor people trust ?    We might just have to try different things and see what happens.

Can we also educate the rich on the fact that the current system is unsustainable in the log run and some sort of "Information Dividend" needs to be distributed back to all. Lets face it the ability to make money is been concentrated more and more as automation and globalization takes place - everyone should benefit from progress.

And the middle class also needs a good f@cking lecture on the amount of handouts they are in receipt of  from the big bad goverment - mortgage deductions, subsidized education, subsidized healthcare, social security,  deductions for going to church etc.

cerebus

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #78 on: May 14, 2015, 06:40:33 AM »
Good question.   Wish I had a good answer.   

There will need to be adult ed, but I don't think it needs to be exclusively adult ed.    I'm thinking most of the people who post here, and have kids, are already teaching some of these principles, mainly by example.    We'd need to teach poor kids little bits of the philosophy over an extended period of time.   Long term success might be achieved by teaching kids.   

Kids or adults, you ask a good question - who would poor people trust ?    We might just have to try different things and see what happens.

From my standpoint the answer has to cultural rather than educational. You can lecture all you want but the cultural incentives are what ultimately drive people to make choices. It's similar to food - in the US all the budget incentives are for big fast food chain stores, and all the 'education' in the form of TV ads is for fast food, so people end up choosing to eat junk because on a cost benefit, it's almost as cheap per meal (although it adds up big time and they don't actually run the numbers very well to see the actual cost), and it's super convenient compared to cooking all the time. You need to up-end the entire system to change that, which means no more subsidisation of unhealthy produce like corn syrup, and maybe taxing fast food, and using that money to subsidize local grocery shops, and cutting down on TV advertising by fast food chains - just as a hypothetical example.

Arktinkerer

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #79 on: May 14, 2015, 06:59:59 AM »
I've been lurking and following this thread for a bit.  I'm surprised no one has suggested a more fundamental, but simple, change in how such programs are done.  I would propose, as a matter of policy, that no program be set up that ever makes it disadvantageous to work or save.  The benefits could be reduced as income/assets increase, but could never make someone worse off for such actions.

For example, this would mean things like welfare/food stamps/healthcare would be reduced by some fraction of earned income but the current policies of cutting someone off if they earned just one more dollar would be eliminated.  Savings or asset tracking is a bit harder but still possible.

The end result should be that it should always be in peoples best interest to work and save.  Some will decide its not worth the effort.  Others may stop part way to self sufficiency.  I acknowledge that.

Emilyngh

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #80 on: May 14, 2015, 07:02:02 AM »
Good question.   Wish I had a good answer.   

There will need to be adult ed, but I don't think it needs to be exclusively adult ed.    I'm thinking most of the people who post here, and have kids, are already teaching some of these principles, mainly by example.    We'd need to teach poor kids little bits of the philosophy over an extended period of time.   Long term success might be achieved by teaching kids.   

Kids or adults, you ask a good question - who would poor people trust ?    We might just have to try different things and see what happens.

From my standpoint the answer has to cultural rather than educational. You can lecture all you want but the cultural incentives are what ultimately drive people to make choices. It's similar to food - in the US all the budget incentives are for big fast food chain stores, and all the 'education' in the form of TV ads is for fast food, so people end up choosing to eat junk because on a cost benefit, it's almost as cheap per meal (although it adds up big time and they don't actually run the numbers very well to see the actual cost), and it's super convenient compared to cooking all the time. You need to up-end the entire system to change that, which means no more subsidisation of unhealthy produce like corn syrup, and maybe taxing fast food, and using that money to subsidize local grocery shops, and cutting down on TV advertising by fast food chains - just as a hypothetical example.

This.   While education seems like a logical solution, the reality is that all the education in the world is close to meaningless of the system is rigged to motivate the opposite behavior.   Generally, people do not act rationally based on their best long-term interests, they act on short-term desires and then rationalize them after.   While mustachians may be better than average at this, none of us are really immune to it.   We all think we make logical decisions based on what's truly best for us, but this is usually just self-delusion. 

Emilyngh

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2015, 07:04:55 AM »
I've been lurking and following this thread for a bit.  I'm surprised no one has suggested a more fundamental, but simple, change in how such programs are done.  I would propose, as a matter of policy, that no program be set up that ever makes it disadvantageous to work or save.  The benefits could be reduced as income/assets increase, but could never make someone worse off for such actions.

For example, this would mean things like welfare/food stamps/healthcare would be reduced by some fraction of earned income but the current policies of cutting someone off if they earned just one more dollar would be eliminated.  Savings or asset tracking is a bit harder but still possible.

The end result should be that it should always be in peoples best interest to work and save.  Some will decide its not worth the effort.  Others may stop part way to self sufficiency.  I acknowledge that.

This was the motivation behind the EITC, and taking it into account, I do believe that we already have this.   However, over time people seem to forget that it's achieving this intended purpose and instead complain about all of the poor people getting fat tax refund checks.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 07:06:48 AM by Emilyngh »

handsnhearts

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2015, 07:27:13 AM »
But it doesn't help everyone. My dad is a Vietnam vet on full disability, mostly psychological stuff but some physical too. He would love to work, but if he does, he loses everything. Free health care, disability payments that are like a small pension. He can not risk it. And I think it makes him invested in being "disabled" rather than able but with limitations just like every human being, even if he reaches his limits sooner than the average bear. I don't begrudge him anything, it is his due and he earned it IMO, and I know it is different than 'the undeserving poor'. But if we have this standard for those whom most people would agree are 'deserving', how can we do anything better for those that we deem 'undeserving'?  This is a cultural problem, based in our cultural narrative (lie) that 'Americans are self sufficient and pull themselves up by their bootstraps'. Until we can change this narrative, we will have this problem.


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2lazy2retire

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2015, 07:35:23 AM »
I've been lurking and following this thread for a bit.  I'm surprised no one has suggested a more fundamental, but simple, change in how such programs are done.  I would propose, as a matter of policy, that no program be set up that ever makes it disadvantageous to work or save.  The benefits could be reduced as income/assets increase, but could never make someone worse off for such actions.

For example, this would mean things like welfare/food stamps/healthcare would be reduced by some fraction of earned income but the current policies of cutting someone off if they earned just one more dollar would be eliminated.  Savings or asset tracking is a bit harder but still possible.

The end result should be that it should always be in peoples best interest to work and save.  Some will decide its not worth the effort.  Others may stop part way to self sufficiency.  I acknowledge that.

"The end result should be that it should always be in peoples best interest to work and save"

 - I though a big part of MMM doctrine was not to have to work ;).  Real liberty is the choice to live our lives as we choose. For a country that bangs on about Liberty whats more liberating that not having to worry about how to feed your family or put a roof over your head. Which is better - been forced to work multiple dead end jobs you hate or been able to educate yourself to live the life you prefer may it be making more money or been more creative. As such I'm a big supporter of BIG as it provides real freedom, but I guess in America freedom is been able to fill your house with AR15's or hold a cartoon competition to mock someones religion.

justajane

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2015, 07:47:22 AM »
which means no more subsidisation of unhealthy produce like corn syrup, and maybe taxing fast food, and using that money to subsidize local grocery shops, and cutting down on TV advertising by fast food chains - just as a hypothetical example.

I'll support the first thing, but regarding the rest, you definitely have me squirming a bit, and I'm as far from a libertarian as you can get. What you suggest is so paternalistic that I can't get behind it. The reaction's to Bloomberg's suggestion to limit soda size in NYC shows that what you suggest is politically untenable. There has to be another way than treating citizens like children.

cerebus

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2015, 07:58:53 AM »
which means no more subsidisation of unhealthy produce like corn syrup, and maybe taxing fast food, and using that money to subsidize local grocery shops, and cutting down on TV advertising by fast food chains - just as a hypothetical example.

I'll support the first thing, but regarding the rest, you definitely have me squirming a bit, and I'm as far from a libertarian as you can get. What you suggest is so paternalistic that I can't get behind it. The reaction's to Bloomberg's suggestion to limit soda size in NYC shows that what you suggest is politically untenable. There has to be another way than treating citizens like children.

Every decision made by the government creates both incentives and disincentives at the same time. Right now the economic incentives favour fast food, and disfavour smaller grocery shops, resulting in swathes of food desert across America. Historically you can trace that back right to the 1930s and the support programs put in place to help farmers survive the Great Depression, and today it's undergirded by hundreds of millions of lobbying dollars to continue the subsidization of the key junk food ingredients: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/16/government-subsidies-junk-food_n_3600046.html.

What can possibly be paternalistic about attempting to reverse this system on the best advice of the ENTIRE medical community to encourage healthy eating habits? The government is already acting paternalistically in one direction anyway, so why not try to steer the boat in a better direction? Anyway it's not really about eating, those are just off-the-cuff suggestions I'm making as an illustration of how you could hope to change the mindset of the poor.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 08:01:39 AM by cerebus »

forummm

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2015, 08:19:44 AM »
I've been lurking and following this thread for a bit.  I'm surprised no one has suggested a more fundamental, but simple, change in how such programs are done.  I would propose, as a matter of policy, that no program be set up that ever makes it disadvantageous to work or save.  The benefits could be reduced as income/assets increase, but could never make someone worse off for such actions.

For example, this would mean things like welfare/food stamps/healthcare would be reduced by some fraction of earned income but the current policies of cutting someone off if they earned just one more dollar would be eliminated.  Savings or asset tracking is a bit harder but still possible.

The end result should be that it should always be in peoples best interest to work and save.  Some will decide its not worth the effort.  Others may stop part way to self sufficiency.  I acknowledge that.

It's a lot more complicated to enact this kind of policy than you might think. And then given that Congress tinkers with programs continually, there are just going to be some unintended consequences that occur over time. There is such a haphazard patchwork of social safety net programs that it's hard to keep them all straight and figure out how they all work together, let alone project how a particular individual's choices will affect them. A flat payment per person (minimum income) without complications would be an easier program to navigate.

There are many reasons why people don't work and why linking work to benefits can be challenging. Here's one example discussion on the topic:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/05/11/behind-the-split-over-linking-medicaid-coverage-to-work-requirements/

justajane

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2015, 08:20:37 AM »
Would you limit car advertising? I would imagine that the increased use of cars plays a much larger role in American obesity than fast food.

What about beer? There are no discernible health benefits of that beverage and it's high in calories; yet I challenge you to find a Mustachian or middle class person who wants to disincentivize that. They'll pry my craft beer from my cold, dead hands!

Clearly fast food is a bugaboo for lots of people and it's part of the narrative of poverty. It's also a class war. McDs = bad. Chipotle = good. It's very class laden, and I have no confidence that the government (which is weighted heavily with formerly middle class and upper class people) will get it right. They will likely let their own food biases intrude. Plus food "science" is so variable and changes based on the direction of the wind.

Obviously we need to find a way to get real grocery stores back into cities, but at least in my city, one reason they leave is because their losses from theft are astronomically high. You can't blame a store for closing when they are close to losing money. The larger issues are crime, education, and jobs that actually pay enough to survive. Closing fast food places or raising the prices of food we don't like just doesn't really seem that high on the list of things that will actually help the poor.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 08:22:25 AM by justajane »

cerebus

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2015, 08:33:35 AM »
Would you limit car advertising? I would imagine that the increased use of cars plays a much larger role in American obesity than fast food.

No why would I want to do that? It's an indirect, rather than a direct, cause - like smoking is to cancer.

Quote
What about beer? There are no discernible health benefits of that beverage and it's high in calories; yet I challenge you to find a Mustachian or middle class person who wants to disincentivize that. They'll pry my craft beer from my cold, dead hands!

Well, they limit the sale of beer and the advertising quite strongly, and they tax it. So it's already being somewhat disincentivized.

Quote
Clearly fast food is a bugaboo for lots of people and it's part of the narrative of poverty. It's also a class war. McDs = bad. Chipotle = good.
Chipotle is bad, McDs is also bad. Chipotle is just a good sort of bad, and McDs has healthy food. All I'm saying is, perhaps consider changing the cost incentives so it's more worthwhile for Americans to buy healthy food than unhealthy.

Quote
It's very class laden
So is poverty. That's what we're trying to deal with.

Quote
and I have no confidence that the government (which is weighted heavily with formerly middle class and upper class people) will get it right.
They're already getting it completely backasswards. It can't be much worse than it currently is.

Quote
They will likely let their own food biases intrude.
It's better than letting their own money biases intrude, as at present.

Quote
Plus food "science" is so variable and changes based on the direction of the wind.
Not about fast food it doesn't. 

Quote
Obviously we need to find a way to get real grocery stores back into cities, but at least in my city, one reason they leave is because their losses from theft are astronomically high. You can't blame a store for closing when they are close to losing money. The larger issues are crime, education, and jobs that actually pay enough to survive. Closing fast food places or raising the prices of food we don't like just doesn't really seem that high on the list of things that will actually help the poor.

I'm not talking about the poor though, I'm talking about food and using it as a corollary to the poor. The food situation in America as it relates to the poor is extremely dire though and so far you aren't proposing anything at all to alleviate it, except they'll pry my Super Sized Coke out of my dead American hands.

Bob W

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2015, 08:39:33 AM »
I agree with your statement "there will always be poor because it is a movable target relative to other people" just like there will always be a middle class. I hate when people say the middle class is shrinking.

That's not true; it's entirely possible for the middle class to shrink (or be eliminated entirely).

Let me construct an artificial example: assume "society" contains 10 people. Nine of those people have 1% of the wealth each, and the 10th person has the remaining 91%.

The median wealth is 1%.
The mean wealth is 10%.

Nobody in this society has anywhere near the mean wealth, so who's middle class? The answer is nobody.

Similarly, who's the middle class on this chart?



Very interesting ---  just mentioning that we don't have "classes" in the USA.  Even though that term is thrown around a lot.   We do have low income folks and middle income folks. 

Bob W

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2015, 08:49:27 AM »
I've been lurking and following this thread for a bit.  I'm surprised no one has suggested a more fundamental, but simple, change in how such programs are done.  I would propose, as a matter of policy, that no program be set up that ever makes it disadvantageous to work or save.  The benefits could be reduced as income/assets increase, but could never make someone worse off for such actions.

For example, this would mean things like welfare/food stamps/healthcare would be reduced by some fraction of earned income but the current policies of cutting someone off if they earned just one more dollar would be eliminated.  Savings or asset tracking is a bit harder but still possible.

The end result should be that it should always be in peoples best interest to work and save.  Some will decide its not worth the effort.  Others may stop part way to self sufficiency.  I acknowledge that.

It's a lot more complicated to enact this kind of policy than you might think. And then given that Congress tinkers with programs continually, there are just going to be some unintended consequences that occur over time. There is such a haphazard patchwork of social safety net programs that it's hard to keep them all straight and figure out how they all work together, let alone project how a particular individual's choices will affect them. A flat payment per person (minimum income) without complications would be an easier program to navigate.

There are many reasons why people don't work and why linking work to benefits can be challenging. Here's one example discussion on the topic:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/05/11/behind-the-split-over-linking-medicaid-coverage-to-work-requirements/

Yes,  I agree and I am in the field of Service Coordination where one of my duties is to help people understand and access the vast array of programs.

I would also add that the US simply printing money rather than taxing would be a much simpler system as well.

So we could imagine a society where everyone receives a minimum income and there is no income tax at the federal level.  Sound a little too utopian I suppose and perhaps a little too simplistic.   But the reality is that our current system is such a mish mash of cobbled and duct taped taxes and programs that it is hugely inefficient.   

So yeah,  no welfare offices,   no IRS,  no government inference in micromanaging people's monies,  no IRAs,  tax accountants, no tax penalties. 

The "tax" would all come down to inflation.    But that inflation would mostly be limited to areas like stocks, real estate,  commodities -- pretty much where our inflation resides now.  Electronics would continue to go down. 

It wouldn't necessarily lead to hyper inflation unless the congress hyperly spent.   Oh shit --- I just realized we're screwed! 

justajane

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2015, 08:55:57 AM »
I'm not talking about the poor though, I'm talking about food and using it as a corollary to the poor. The food situation in America as it relates to the poor is extremely dire though and so far you aren't proposing anything at all to alleviate it, except they'll pry my Super Sized Coke out of my dead American hands.

Clearly we are not going to agree, and your snarkiness directed at me doesn't make me want to dialogue any further.

But carry on, we'll see how far your ideas get the poor. I'm guessing not very far, especially if the larger and systemic issues that I mentioned aren't addressed.

But at least they won't be able to eat a Paunch burger anymore, amiright?

Parks and Recreation's fat American schtick is damn funny, but in large part because it's making fun of middle class Americans in the Midwest and not directed at the vulnerable urban or rural poor. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 09:08:04 AM by justajane »

justajane

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2015, 09:09:16 AM »
Very interesting ---  just mentioning that we don't have "classes" in the USA.  Even though that term is thrown around a lot.   We do have low income folks and middle income folks.

Can you clarify what you mean, Bob? I'm curious about your reasoning here. Or is it just an issue of semantics?

Pooperman

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2015, 09:23:03 AM »
Someone (I think Bob) said that Basic Income would lead to less working. That's the point of it and why it's necessary at this point in history. We, as a society have two choices. The first is to work our collective asses off doing bullshit jobs while slowly dying inside (those of you in the "service" industry know what I'm talking about). The second option is to provide enough for all citizens minimally, but leave the door open to them working for status items or whatever the hell they want. The second taxes the environment less and would have deflationary pressures (at least to start) followed by the inflationary pressure of the basic income once that catches up with the deflation.

The utopia promised in the 60s with 20 hour work weeks and stuff can't happen until Basic Income is implemented. Both systems have their issues, but the current one is much more inefficient... and I hate inefficiencies in systems.

Jack

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2015, 10:15:52 AM »
which means no more subsidisation of unhealthy produce like corn syrup, and maybe taxing fast food, and using that money to subsidize local grocery shops, and cutting down on TV advertising by fast food chains - just as a hypothetical example.

I'll support the first thing, but regarding the rest, you definitely have me squirming a bit, and I'm as far from a libertarian as you can get. What you suggest is so paternalistic that I can't get behind it. The reaction's to Bloomberg's suggestion to limit soda size in NYC shows that what you suggest is politically untenable. There has to be another way than treating citizens like children.

One thing you need to realize is that there are entire industries that have devoted decades upon decades of research and billions upon billions of dollars to the single-minded purpose of getting the American consumer to buy as much of their products as possible regardless of any detrimental effects on said consumer's health or wallet. Processed food is made purposefully addictive, so consumers will buy more, and keep buying it. Marketers use every propaganda trick in the book, including "getting 'em hooked young" by getting their products in schools, to convince consumers to think of eating their product as "normal," and to disregard alternatives. And they do their damnedest to hammer those messages into every person as much and as often as possible, starting from birth.

In that context, it's hard to characterize failing to avoid falling victim to the propaganda and indoctrination as "childish" -- you have to have almost superhuman willpower to manage it!

Now, I'm not saying I necessarily agree with cerebus' suggestion, but I do agree that something ought to be done.

I would also add that the US simply printing money rather than taxing would be a much simpler system as well.

So we could imagine a society where everyone receives a minimum income and there is no income tax at the federal level.  Sound a little too utopian I suppose and perhaps a little too simplistic.   But the reality is that our current system is such a mish mash of cobbled and duct taped taxes and programs that it is hugely inefficient.   

So yeah,  no welfare offices,   no IRS,  no government inference in micromanaging people's monies,  no IRAs,  tax accountants, no tax penalties. 

The "tax" would all come down to inflation.    But that inflation would mostly be limited to areas like stocks, real estate,  commodities -- pretty much where our inflation resides now.  Electronics would continue to go down. 

It wouldn't necessarily lead to hyper inflation unless the congress hyperly spent.   Oh shit --- I just realized we're screwed!

Wow, now that's a Hell of an idea! It's the kind of thing that causes a visceral "what the fuck? that's crazy!" kind of reaction at first, then starts to make sense after you think about it for a while.

Of course, even though the Federal government does a lot of deficit spending (which might or might not be a bad thing), eliminating the income tax (without making any other changes) would instantly triple the deficit, which might not be sustainable. Relying on the money magically created from thin air by inflation to fund the government might require the government to pretty drastically cut spending, at least if we want the rate of inflation to be low.

Killerbrandt

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2015, 10:27:27 AM »
I am very in between on this issue. I hate seeing my tax money go to waste on cable tv and fancy cell phones, but at that same time I do know there are families that truly need our help. Lots are on assistance for only a few months to get back on their feet.

The only things I could suggest are,

Instead of food stamps, why not set up food shelters and have the people show a card and allow them to pick healthy food from the shelter, so it is way harder for them to abuse food stamps on soda, beer, candy and other horrible foods.

Then for the people receiving rent money or any other type of assistance, why don't we make them volunteer for a few hours each week in their community? They could rotate through the food shelters or sleep shelters.

In addition, if someone is not working and receiving help, they could take financial courses to help learn the basics of living and how to be cost effective in their situation. They could split the volunteer time between this class and doing public service.

These are just a few of the ways we could make it more "fair". The truly needy would go out of their way for this and not be afraid of who sees them walking in to a food shelter or other shelter. Also, then the tax payers will see them volunteering and not only think they are wasting their money sitting around.

This is a fun topic and a very tough one.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 10:30:06 AM by Killerbrandt »

Jack

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2015, 10:43:16 AM »
Instead of food stamps, why not set up food shelters and have the people show a card and allow them to pick healthy food from the shelter, so it is way harder for them to abuse food stamps on soda, beer, candy and other horrible foods.

How many of these "food shelters" do you suggest setting up? Keep in mind that a lot of the follks who would use it are the same ones who rely on public transportation and walking to get around. Grocery store "food deserts" are bad enough; without opening a massive number of these things it'd be even worse.

And then, who's going to manage the logistics of them? You need to do all the same kind of inventory management that grocery stores already do. Considering that, does creating a redundant system have enough benefits to make it worth it?

FrugalShrew

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2015, 10:46:55 AM »
With regard to government policies: 1) Arktinkerer, I think you're on to something with the idea of having social programs be on a sliding scale, instead of having people cut off over a certain threshhold, and 2) I'll put in my vote for the VAT tax!

With regard to poverty itself, while the idea of someone having cable or a smartphone  when they are receiving government assistance seems lavish, and the idea of someone having a(n exorbitantly expensive) cigarette habit when they are otherwise scraping by seems foolish, I would echo some of the earlier posters' reminders that poverty & voluntary simplicity are not the same thing. Poverty imposes many stressors on people that can impair their decision-making ability.

Two of my favorite psych studies that demonstrate this concept are the Rat Park experiment, showing that a positive and enriching environment tremendously decreases addiction rates, and a remake of the marshmallow experiment, showing that children whose lives are unstable have less self-control:

Rat Park experiment: "If you had asked me what causes drug addiction at the start, I would have looked at you as if you were an idiot, and said: 'Drugs. Duh.' . . .

One of the ways this theory was first established is through rat experiments -- ones that were injected into the American psyche in the 1980s, in a famous advert by the Partnership for a Drug-Free America. You may remember it. The experiment is simple. Put a rat in a cage, alone, with two water bottles. One is just water. The other is water laced with heroin or cocaine. Almost every time you run this experiment, the rat will become obsessed with the drugged water, and keep coming back for more and more, until it kills itself.

The advert explains: 'Only one drug is so addictive, nine out of ten laboratory rats will use it. And use it. And use it. Until dead. It's called cocaine. And it can do the same thing to you.'

But in the 1970s, a professor of Psychology in Vancouver called Bruce Alexander noticed something odd about this experiment. The rat is put in the cage all alone. It has nothing to do but take the drugs. What would happen, he wondered, if we tried this differently? So Professor Alexander built Rat Park. It is a lush cage where the rats would have colored balls and the best rat-food and tunnels to scamper down and plenty of friends: everything a rat about town could want. What, Alexander wanted to know, will happen then?

In Rat Park, all the rats obviously tried both water bottles, because they didn't know what was in them. But what happened next was startling.

The rats with good lives didn't like the drugged water. They mostly shunned it, consuming less than a quarter of the drugs the isolated rats used. None of them died. While all the rats who were alone and unhappy became heavy users, none of the rats who had a happy environment did." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html

Marshmallow experiment: "[A] child's ability to delay gratification and control him-or herself—often seen as a personality trait critical for academic success—can be hugely dependent on the child's sense of stability in the environment and trust in surrounding adults.

In a twist on the classic Stanford University 'marshmallow experiment,' in which young children's ability to resist eating a marshmallow was tested to show their self-control [by being offered 1 treat now or 2 treats if they waited], researchers led by Celeste Kidd, a professor of brain and cognitive sciences at the University of Rochester in New York recently found children who trusted the word of the adult tester and felt their environment was more stable waited four times as long for a treat as those who felt more insecure." http://perdidostreetschool.blogspot.com/2012/11/study-shows-damage-poverty-and.html

The studies are analogous because in both, subjects with more positive environments are able to resist short-term gains that are not as good for them in the long run.

I don't mean to write off all individual responsibility -- poor decisions are not just the result of bad circumstances but rather a combination of nature and nurture. But I can see the principles of marshmallow experiment v.2 play out in some of my less financially fortunate friends' lives. They might blow money on an indulgence, which for a middle-class consumer clown would be merely ridiculous, while for them it can be the difference between having money or not for the next car repair or medical bill. But it's very difficult for them to imagine that money being there tomorrow. Like the kid who eats the 1 marshmallow in front of him because he can't trust that the adult will actually come back with 2 marshmallows if he waits, it's hard to trust in the future benefits of that money being greater than the present benefits. There's always some kind of emergency with family or friends that they are expected to help out with. Everybody around them is struggling, and it becomes a self-reinforcing pattern. 

Basically, I agree with Emilyngh that "[g]enerally people do not act rationally based on their best long-term interests, they act on short-term desires and then rationalize them after." Poverty exacerbates this inherent problem by sapping people's strength to resist temptation and undermining trust in the ability to enjoy benefits in the future.   

Killerbrandt

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2015, 10:48:46 AM »
Instead of food stamps, why not set up food shelters and have the people show a card and allow them to pick healthy food from the shelter, so it is way harder for them to abuse food stamps on soda, beer, candy and other horrible foods.

How many of these "food shelters" do you suggest setting up? Keep in mind that a lot of the follks who would use it are the same ones who rely on public transportation and walking to get around. Grocery store "food deserts" are bad enough; without opening a massive number of these things it'd be even worse.

And then, who's going to manage the logistics of them? You need to do all the same kind of inventory management that grocery stores already do. Considering that, does creating a redundant system have enough benefits to make it worth it?

I agree that it would take a lot to fully implement, but it would calm so many knowing that the tax payer money is not getting used on steak! or other crap. However, we could also use technology and just make the registers not allow such items be paid for with food stamps.

I still think the volunteering idea is a good, because if the person is not working or disabled, then they should be able to give back to the community a few hours a week.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 10:50:42 AM by Killerbrandt »

2lazy2retire

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Re: The poverty line
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2015, 10:51:45 AM »
I am very in between on this issue. I hate seeing my tax money go to waste on cable tv and fancy cell phones, but at that same time I do know there are families that truly need our help. Lots are on assistance for only a few months to get back on their feet.

The only things I could suggest are,

Instead of food stamps, why not set up food shelters and have the people show a card and allow them to pick healthy food from the shelter, so it is way harder for them to abuse food stamps on soda, beer, candy and other horrible foods.

Then for the people receiving rent money or any other type of assistance, why don't we make them volunteer for a few hours each week in their community? They could rotate through the food shelters or sleep shelters.

In addition, if someone is not working and receiving help, they could take financial courses to help learn the basics of living and how to be cost effective in their situation. They could split the volunteer time between this class and doing public service.

These are just a few of the ways we could make it more "fair". The truly needy would go out of their way for this and not be afraid of who sees them walking in to a food shelter or other shelter. Also, then the tax payers will see them volunteering and not only think they are wasting their money sitting around.

This is a fun topic and a very tough one.

All god ways to demean them a little more I guess. Maybe have the food shelters in the middle of town and have everyone line up on a Saturday for the handouts, then all us taxpayers can bring our kids along to view, and I get to feel good about how my tax's are spent.

There is support for BIG on both the left and the right and various economists have put forward ways to pay for it that seem viable,  at least at first glance. Apart from the simplicity of admin and overall costs, the return of dignity and security to our most vulnerable would over the years pay massive dividends with cost reductions in  addiction treatment, healthcare, criminal justice system etc.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 11:05:19 AM by 2lazy2retire »