Author Topic: The Non-negotiable Tithe  (Read 60080 times)

JLee

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #250 on: March 12, 2017, 04:28:16 AM »
I don't attend church.  My wife is a non-practicing jew.  We don't attend any services at all so this is not an issue.

The 10% always struck me as like the diamond industry marketed the idea that an engagement ring should be two months of pay.

I know my parents adjusted the % they gave according to how much they earned.  As it went up, the $$ amount might go up but the % went down.  It was out of a feeling of obligation.  The church asked for a pledge at the start of each year.

I think the people who truly gain something positive from church will have no problem tithing.  It's those that attend church out of duty that will question the amount to tithe.

BUT, if I did tithe and were to request an analysis at MMM, I would cut that out of the data I presented.  It's too much of an easy target.

lastly, just like college savings shouldn't come at the expense of retirement savings, I don't think tithing should come at the expense of retirement savings.

I wonder how many people are unable to retire at typical retirement age because of tithing - I just ran the numbers out of curiosity, and if was investing 10% of my gross today (at 33yo), starting with a balance of zero (i.e. the 10% of gross recommended as a tithe by someone earlier in this thread), I'd be a millionaire by the time I was 65.

talltexan

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #251 on: March 13, 2017, 08:02:53 AM »
Here's an alternative to the tithe: commit to donate 12.5% of your unearned post-tax income.

It's more than 10%.

But it's from the fruit of your "land", not "labor". Build the stache quickly, live off a lower SWR because of the good you're doing.

runewell

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #252 on: March 13, 2017, 08:16:24 AM »

I wonder how many people are unable to retire at typical retirement age because of tithing.

No doubt I could have shave several years off of my eventual retirement date had I not tithed my whole life.

MustachianAccountant

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #253 on: March 14, 2017, 05:58:20 AM »
This is impossible. WE CANNOT TITHE so this thread is a misnomer.

(Shortened for brevity)

Here is some food for thought from some church information.  Sharing for consideration as a counterpoint to these views.

Why Tithe?
The giving of a tithe is a recognition that everything you possess actually belongs to the Lord.

(Shortened for brevity)

There is a lot that goes into this discussion, but here's some food for thought:

--Please have your church leaders explain Deuteronomy 14:22-29 to you. I've never heard this passage spoken on when the tithe is brought up, which is strange (and by that I mean, not strange).

--There IS an Old Testament guideline for us on giving, but it's not the tithe. It's found in Exodus 35:4-29. That passage aligns directly with what we find in 2 Corinthians 9, and how the early church gave in Acts.

--If you want great, well thought out, Biblical resources on tithing, check out Matthew Narramore and Graeme Carle. Free online studies linked here. They argue better than I ever could:

Graeme Carle: Eating Sacred Cows http://www.tithingdebate.com/eatingsacredcowsdownload.pdf

Matthew Narramore: Tithing - Low Realm, Obselete, Defunct www.tekoapublishing.com
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 07:15:12 AM by MustachianAccountant »

caracarn

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #254 on: March 14, 2017, 07:18:35 AM »
This is impossible. WE CANNOT TITHE so this thread is a misnomer.

(Shortened for brevity)

Here is some food for thought from some church information.  Sharing for consideration as a counterpoint to these views.

Why Tithe?
The giving of a tithe is a recognition that everything you possess actually belongs to the Lord.

(Shortened for brevity)

There is a lot that goes into this discussion, but here's some food for thought:

--Please have your church leaders explain Deuteronomy 14:22-29 to you. I've never heard this passage spoken on when the tithe is brought up, which is strange (ok, not really).

--There IS an Old Testament guideline for us on giving, but it's not the tithe. It's found in Exodus 35:4-29. That passage aligns directly with what we find in 2 Corinthians 9, and how the early church gave in Acts.

--If you want great, well thought out, Biblical resources on tithing, check out Matthew Narramore and Graeme Carle. Free online studies linked here. They argue better than I ever could:

Graeme Carle: Eating Sacred Cows http://www.tithingdebate.com/eatingsacredcowsdownload.pdf

Matthew Narramore: Tithing - Low Realm, Obselete, Defunct www.tekoapublishing.com

Thanks for this material.  Always interesting to learn more.  I only spent a bit of time to far, but wanted to see what the "point" of these sources was so went to the end of Mr. Narramore's book.

In reading his Chapter 12 Commencement, I feel his teaching is certainly sound, and in line with what our church focuses on.  We do not succumb to the doctrine that any works, including tithing, are demanded by God to be saved.  In the end Mr. Narramore's message is no different than what we've been following which is to give to the church as the Lord leads.   We do not give 10% out of a feeling of obligation, but simply because that is what we feel is appropriate.  If we were part of a church that gave us pause, obviously our first course of action should be to search for another church that was more Biblically based.  Our church is the first one that I have attended (and over my lifetime I've been part of about 30 churches) that follows the precept that giving is between you and the Lord.  We do not pass a collection plate, you give (or not) to the church in collection boxes in a few places around the building.  They do allow you to give online if you choose and if that is easier, which is how we do it so that we do not have to write checks, bring them with, etc.  It's just done each week.  There is no selection on the web site to have it calculate 10% for you, no text indicating it should be 10% etc.  I do not feel it "buys" me a place in heaven, it is required by God, or any of the other things Mr. Narramore indicates are false doctrine.  As such I feel his direction is sound.  I do not  feel that changes the fact that for us what we give is non-negotiable.  Our giving is to help further the Great Commission and that clearly is what we are commanded to do under the New Covenant.  If at any point I feel that our church is no longer focused solely on that, I will most likely have the Lord lead us to a lower level of giving or to once again find a church modeled after Acts 1:8.  Our church has been this was for 40 years, so I'm not too concerned that a change like that will come.  Our current pastor has been senior pastor for over ten years, and was involved in associate pastor duties her for fifteen years before that.  His father was senior pastor for thirty years before him.  There was a pastor search before he was appointed so for those who will cynically point to some pre-determined succession, that is not the case.  The church elders are godly men and were very forthright with the congregation during that time and were very clear that the son may not have been chosen, but after over a year of consideration that decision was made with consent of the congregation.  In short, I agree with what little I've read from Mr. Narramore, and my reasons for giving at the tithe level are totally in line with his explanations as I've been them thus far.   If people fall into the traps he lists (I did scan the other chapter summaries), I would encourage them to look at what you have provided and clear their mind (or "cleanse" it as Mr. Narramore suggests) of the false rationale for tithing, but I believe you'll find most true believers at that point would not change their giving, if their church serves the purpose of furthering the gospel in the world.

MustachianAccountant

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #255 on: March 14, 2017, 07:35:21 AM »
This is impossible. WE CANNOT TITHE so this thread is a misnomer.

(Shortened for brevity)

Here is some food for thought from some church information.  Sharing for consideration as a counterpoint to these views.

Why Tithe?
The giving of a tithe is a recognition that everything you possess actually belongs to the Lord.

(Shortened for brevity)

There is a lot that goes into this discussion, but here's some food for thought:

--Please have your church leaders explain Deuteronomy 14:22-29 to you. I've never heard this passage spoken on when the tithe is brought up, which is strange (ok, not really).

--There IS an Old Testament guideline for us on giving, but it's not the tithe. It's found in Exodus 35:4-29. That passage aligns directly with what we find in 2 Corinthians 9, and how the early church gave in Acts.

--If you want great, well thought out, Biblical resources on tithing, check out Matthew Narramore and Graeme Carle. Free online studies linked here. They argue better than I ever could:

Graeme Carle: Eating Sacred Cows http://www.tithingdebate.com/eatingsacredcowsdownload.pdf

Matthew Narramore: Tithing - Low Realm, Obselete, Defunct www.tekoapublishing.com

Thanks for this material.  Always interesting to learn more.  I only spent a bit of time to far, but wanted to see what the "point" of these sources was so went to the end of Mr. Narramore's book.

In reading his Chapter 12 Commencement, I feel his teaching is certainly sound, and in line with what our church focuses on.  We do not succumb to the doctrine that any works, including tithing, are demanded by God to be saved.  In the end Mr. Narramore's message is no different than what we've been following which is to give to the church as the Lord leads.   We do not give 10% out of a feeling of obligation, but simply because that is what we feel is appropriate.  If we were part of a church that gave us pause, obviously our first course of action should be to search for another church that was more Biblically based.  Our church is the first one that I have attended (and over my lifetime I've been part of about 30 churches) that follows the precept that giving is between you and the Lord.  We do not pass a collection plate, you give (or not) to the church in collection boxes in a few places around the building.  They do allow you to give online if you choose and if that is easier, which is how we do it so that we do not have to write checks, bring them with, etc.  It's just done each week.  There is no selection on the web site to have it calculate 10% for you, no text indicating it should be 10% etc.  I do not feel it "buys" me a place in heaven, it is required by God, or any of the other things Mr. Narramore indicates are false doctrine.  As such I feel his direction is sound.  I do not  feel that changes the fact that for us what we give is non-negotiable.  Our giving is to help further the Great Commission and that clearly is what we are commanded to do under the New Covenant.  If at any point I feel that our church is no longer focused solely on that, I will most likely have the Lord lead us to a lower level of giving or to once again find a church modeled after Acts 1:8.

You (and your church) are conflating "giving" with "tithing."

One says Christians should give. I agree with that.

The other says Christians should give at least 10%, and then layer rules and regulations on top of that (Gross or net? What about money gifted to me? What if I go on vacation? What if I'm in debt? What if...). I don't agree with that. There is simply no Biblical support for it.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts after you fully read the literature I linked.

caracarn

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #256 on: March 14, 2017, 07:59:53 AM »
MustachianAccountant, no actually I respectfully disagree.  I believe it is you who is conflating the fact that since I have chosen to given 10%  as some sort of proof that I misunderstand.  I've read the summary section of both authors at this point, so unless they handle their writing differently I've gotten the full impact of their teaching.  They both say the same thing.  Give what the Lord lays on your heart at the time, do not give our of fear or obligation.  I (or my church) do exactly that.  All of the traps in the questions Carle provides such as "should I now not give" , individual responsibility and inappropriate assignment of blessing are things I follow and understand.  I just happen to have arrived at what most would label a tithe, because it works for our family and my wife and I agree.

Where I disagree with Carle is on splitting the giving between what he properly classifies as "church" and "para church".  I would argue that if you feel that compulsion you should listen to he Holy Spirit's message that your church is doing things that make you uncomfortable and are most likely ungodly (such as building projects for no purpose, which he references, properly I would argue, and man's denominational obsession with keeping things separate).  Our church regularly shares our facilities with other like minded churches as there is need.  We only embark on building or other projects after there is clear need through growth of it and do so in a way that honors the fact, as Carle, points out the ten tenths of what we have is God's and therefore we steward it accordingly.  We actually are embarking on a new building to expand out worship facility.  Initially we will be able to accommodate 700 souls, with modular classrooms behind the initial space and above it which can then be converted to worship space if the congregation grows (notice not "when", as only God can provide the souls if we honor him with proper worship and teaching) up to 1,300.  The existing space will be utilized for expanded youth space as we have outgrown our youth space as well.  Our church provides no "programs" beyond Bible study and other learning opportunities to focus on God's Word.  I have no compulsion from the Spirit to spread my giving beyond the church, where I had before.  This is not due to marketing by the pastors, it is due to the fact that our mission and structure is clearly Biblical in the New Covenant design of Acts.  We consider ourselves a first century church, and are not denominational for exactly the reasons Carle gives, of being mandated to use God's provision in unbiblical ways. 

From reading both authors I believe Carle and Narramore would be quite pleased if they visited our church and spoke with out pastors.

MustachianAccountant

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #257 on: March 14, 2017, 08:27:33 AM »
From reading both authors I believe Carle and Narramore would be quite pleased if they visited our church and spoke with out pastors.

Is this:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-non-negotiable-tithe/msg1454042/#msg1454042

from your church's literature? Is this what they teach on giving? Because if so, then Narramore and Carle both would strenuously disagree with your pastors.

caracarn

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #258 on: March 14, 2017, 08:47:40 AM »
From reading both authors I believe Carle and Narramore would be quite pleased if they visited our church and spoke with out pastors.

Is this:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-non-negotiable-tithe/msg1454042/#msg1454042

from your church's literature? Is this what they teach on giving? Because if so, then Narramore and Carle both would strenuously disagree with your pastors.

It is material used for new members yes.   And you've got me there on what is written.  In practice the message is much more in line with Narramore and Carle as no one is walking around making people feel guilty for not tithing etc. like in other churches I've attended.  The attention is much more on simply make people aware from time to time that giving is a part of worship between you and the Lord and hence why we give in secret as Carle also mentions. 

caracarn

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #259 on: March 15, 2017, 02:36:36 PM »
MustachianAccountant, I've fully read both of the documents you linked to.

They are well written and thought out, but I wish the credentials of the authors were clear.  I have forwarded them on to one of our pastors, as I would agree that our material, while clearly starting with the fact that is in recognition that everything is God's does convolute things.  It contain points that are opposed to what these studies point out.  I do think the one section in Narramore's writing where he shows all the different interpretations and uses it to point out that God would be unlikely to leave something that is taught to be so core so open to interpretation carries the most impact.  I felt the first study was more Scripturally focused and I believe that is because it seems Carle has some theological background, where I have no idea is Narramore has any credentials. 

In short I have no disagreement with what they point out, that everything is God's and therefore we should give according to the Holy Spirit, not some doctrine that they argue no longer applies.  They did a good job of going through the verses and explaining them based on the knowledge I have, but I've not been trained in seminary, so I will be curious what my pastors make of it (and frankly if they will make any effort at all.  I believe they will, but not sure they will read in detail).  I'd like to believe that what they say is true, that a truly born again Christian led by the Spirit will likely give even more than 10% if the need is there, and I have no reason to doubt that.  As I have stated many times over in this thread, I give 10% not out of compulsion, or obligation, but rather because I feel that is right and what I feel called to give by the Spirit.  I have not always done that, and our move to 10% is only about two years old, and the shift was definitely from within, not from haranguing by our pastors.  They almost never talk about the topic.  For me it's still non-negotiable and for reasons entirely in line with what your two sources indicate.  Thanks for sharing, I always enjoy a good Bible study and these both had me digging in further to see if I agreed with their context in the broader chapters, and they did. 

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #260 on: March 15, 2017, 05:57:23 PM »

I wonder how many people are unable to retire at typical retirement age because of tithing.

No doubt I could have shave several years off of my eventual retirement date had I not tithed my whole life.

This would probably change the retirement date of a lot of people here...but I don't think it would effect most people being able to retire.  Its just like I don;t really follow the argument that if people were allowed to save and invest the 12% that goes to SS themselves that they'd be better off...I don't think most people would save and invest it, at least not for decades, they'd eventually spend it.

caracarn

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Re: The Non-negotiable Tithe
« Reply #261 on: March 16, 2017, 06:13:09 AM »

I think the people who truly gain something positive from church will have no problem tithing.  It's those that attend church out of duty that will question the amount to tithe.


I would not disagree with that at all.  The material recently linked by MustachianAccountant gets to the heart of that.  Those authors would argue that those people (that attend church out of duty) are not at the point that they have embraced Christianity in the New Covenant.  I'd not go as far as to say they were not truly saved (that's between them and God) but once you get to a point where you have faith and inwardly are a Christian you do not view it as a burden (just like you do not view attending church as a duty.  It's the best part of your week).