Author Topic: The interesting arrogance of artists  (Read 264933 times)

Ron Scott

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The interesting arrogance of artists
« on: May 16, 2023, 08:24:25 AM »
I read an article about visual AI, which made the case that we may be reaching the point of diminishing returns in developing photographic quality, AI generated images, such that the investments needed to go further in  overall quality might not be worth it. They cited the most recent version of midjourney, which I believe is in beta. I was amazed to hear we had to come so far in one aspect of AI so soon.

This comes on the heels of the significant number of articles in the mainstream press about artists up in arms over AI. Writers are striking in Hollywood in part to prohibit studios from writing scripts using AI. And visual artist are suing to ensure their “style“ is not used in the creation of AI art. Both the writers and the visual artists want to protect their livelihoods from new technology.

What I find a bit irksome about this is when we compare it to other jobs which are likely to be lost to AI. There are about 3 1/2 million customer service representatives working in America. Certainly many of them will lose their jobs in the next year or so to AAI.  Yet nobody is jumping up and down in indigence about robbing them of their work and the creative efforts they apply in providing service. They are nobodies while the artists are supposed to be what? Gods?

I have believed for decades that the vast majority of people have strong, creative and artistic tendencies, but are put off by the sheer technical difficulty in creating a finished product. I am not without empathy for those who have taken the time and effort to learn the craft, knowing that they may not be successful in the long run. But I do not place them above other workers. I am excited about the new technology and its ability to free up the artistic expression of average people.

I am interested in your opinions on this.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2023, 08:59:36 AM »
I read an article about visual AI, which made the case that we may be reaching the point of diminishing returns in developing photographic quality, AI generated images, such that the investments needed to go further in  overall quality might not be worth it. They cited the most recent version of midjourney, which I believe is in beta. I was amazed to hear we had to come so far in one aspect of AI so soon.

This comes on the heels of the significant number of articles in the mainstream press about artists up in arms over AI. Writers are striking in Hollywood in part to prohibit studios from writing scripts using AI. And visual artist are suing to ensure their “style“ is not used in the creation of AI art. Both the writers and the visual artists want to protect their livelihoods from new technology.

What I find a bit irksome about this is when we compare it to other jobs which are likely to be lost to AI. There are about 3 1/2 million customer service representatives working in America. Certainly many of them will lose their jobs in the next year or so to AAI.  Yet nobody is jumping up and down in indigence about robbing them of their work and the creative efforts they apply in providing service. They are nobodies while the artists are supposed to be what? Gods?

I have believed for decades that the vast majority of people have strong, creative and artistic tendencies, but are put off by the sheer technical difficulty in creating a finished product. I am not without empathy for those who have taken the time and effort to learn the craft, knowing that they may not be successful in the long run. But I do not place them above other workers. I am excited about the new technology and its ability to free up the artistic expression of average people.

I am interested in your opinions on this.




Many believe that creative expression is a part of the soul.  As such you can see the obvious threat from AI.  Stealing the livelihood of artists robs them of the ability of their means to support their creative aspirations.   Using AI to allow average people to become master artists without the normal training & experimentation processes required to develop one's style, skills, and creative voice not only robs creative individuals, but it robs all of us of the wonderful things that come from true Human Creativity. 


I can't think of anything more important to protect against the threat of AI than the Arts.


 

dividendman

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2023, 09:04:00 AM »
People always whine and complain when new technology threatens their current skillset. Artists are no different. If AI can create better art or make it so the average Joe can create better art, that's good for the world overall. Just like how technology has allowed regular folks to learn all sorts of things that would have been inaccessible before the internet.

If these so-called creatives can't adapt to these changes, maybe they weren't that creative after all.

Zikoris

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2023, 09:08:37 AM »
I think that the issue is people expected the artists to be the long-time holdouts against AI, instead of some of the first to go. A lot of people are just expecting certain jobs to be gone any day now (driving, etc), but nobody really saw artists coming.

dcheesi

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2023, 09:26:23 AM »
I think that the issue is people expected the artists to be the long-time holdouts against AI, instead of some of the first to go. A lot of people are just expecting certain jobs to be gone any day now (driving, etc), but nobody really saw artists coming.
I can't find the meme I saw, but it was something about how humans (still) doing all the dull physical labor, while AI spends its time making art, isn't exactly what anyone had in mind...
« Last Edit: May 16, 2023, 09:28:13 AM by dcheesi »

Ron Scott

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2023, 09:38:10 AM »
Wow, in a few follow on posts I learn more about the subject than I expected. Thanks all!

Disclaimer: I’m a AI fan.

For some years I worked in Jersey City, in a building on the Hudson overlooking lower Manhattan. Years ago, I pressed my iPhone 6 up against the glass of my office window and took a picture of the sunset’s light shining on the city buildings. It turns the façades a brilliant gold and creates bright photographic artifacts from the strong reflections off the glass on the buildings.

Because I was shooting through unwashed glass with an inferior camera my photo was not great, or sharp. And I reduced the quality further by cropping it. But I ran it through an AI a couple weeks ago. The result was amazing—beyond Photoshop—and I had it printed with Giclee LaserJet on rag paper, in a large format, and hung in my house. People love it!

Jeze—I may be an Artist !!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2023, 09:40:39 AM by Ron Scott »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2023, 10:18:21 AM »
I was listening to an author on a podcast yesterday (being interviewed by another author) and they were talking about the difference between typing in a word processor and writing something out on paper. The author being interviewed said that he would switch to pen and paper when he was trying to work something out in the story because it was just different than typing and engaged a different part of his brain. I know a lot of authors dictate their books and then go back and clean it up later in a word processor.

They remarked how there are probably people alive today who would have been amazing storytellers for their tribe before writing was invented but now, they may be bus drivers or some other career. The medium has changed and someone who can spend hours telling a compelling story verbally may not be able to write it down into a book or screenplay or other medium that is valuable in the modern marketplace.

Technology will always change art - and just like anything with technology there will be winners and losers. The market for epic poems or doesn't really exist but now someone who can't paint can use a computer to make amazing art. Someone who can't sing or play an instrument can use technology to make music digitally. Video games, movies, podcasts, etc. have all created new mediums for artists that didn't exist a century ago. All of these AI tools are just that, tools. We're not yet at the point where they can replace human creativity and artistic expression.

JupiterGreen

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2023, 10:23:16 AM »
Arrogance? No need to be so mean-spirited about your fellow humans.

Here's my take:

The difference is that the AI is taking actual work that artists created. As of now, copyright protects creative works so that is illegal. From what you wrote, it sounds like you misunderstand this issue. I know it's an easier conversation to have when you make this a simple black and white issue with a clear enemy (in this case the "arrogant artists" as you called them are the problem). But let's clarify a few things.

1. The technology is not the problem
Photoshop is a good example to explain this point. Photoshop is also a program (it is technology) that took on some of the workflow of photographers/digital artists. When it first came out, it was also lauded as "the end" for artists (so was the camera). Photoshop is simply a tool and it is a tool used by artists to save time.

2. AI is breaking the (current) law.
The digital art created by Midjourney (and the like) can often still be recognized as being made by the original artists (sometimes even retaining the signature/watermark). AI programs are breaking copyright laws because the image is still recognizable as the original (the original image is protected under copyright law). It is also why there are several important court cases pending on this topic.

3. AI does not create good art (yet) without artists (professional/semi-professional).
I can ride a bicycle, but I'm not a professional cyclist. I could not compete in the tour de France. It's really easy to throw around the phrase "art is subjective" because it is part of human expression, but once you get beyond hobby and into the professional sphere art/design is not subjective. We are at the stage where we are accepting anything from AI art (ever watch a movie from the 80s and make fun of how low-tech and special effects are? We are enamored by AI, anything goes at this stage. It will not last).

Part of the reason for the subjective misunderstanding of art is that arts education has been destroyed (at least in the US). So this common misconception comes down to ignorance (that is not an insult, ignorance is defines as simply not knowing something). People mistake their artistic taste (what you personally like) with good art. But that is a bit arrogant because it's not about us personally. Art has a long history that has followed humans through our entire timeline on this planet. There is a lot to know about this topic including history, materials/tech., the conventions, as well as specific (and logical) things about our (humans) eyes and brains etc. So just because someone likes it does not automatically make it good art (or even art for that matter). You have every right to express your opinion and like and dislike whatever the heck you want, and I will agree there a some grey areas when it comes to art, but most professional art is uncontested by people who know a thing or two about it. The more a person learns about this (and any subject), the more we understand the subject.

My prediction is that the court cases will get sorted and AI art will be in the same category as any other technology artists’ use (rulers, the camera, digital programs, etc.). AI can spit out these hybridizations of stolen images and we may eventually call this art someday, but we are not there yet. It's going to take artists to train it to ultimately make great art. Hobby artists will feel good about using it, just like we do with the cameras on our phones. But without understanding the subject and all the nuances of image-making, we will be amateurs and that’s okay! I can enjoy a bike ride, playing basketball, or even guessing where my liver is without become a professional athlete or medical professional. No big deal, it will be what it will be. AI needs humans for input. If AI technologies become artists then it would be sentient and we (humans) have bigger problems than to bicker over the "arrogance of artists". 

Davnasty

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oneday

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2023, 12:21:28 PM »
Well said, @JupiterGreen


There are about 3 1/2 million customer service representatives working in America. Certainly many of them will lose their jobs in the next year or so to AAI.  Yet nobody is jumping up and down in indigence about robbing them of their work and the creative efforts they apply in providing service.

Somebody/we all *should* be "jumping up and down" about robbing those folks of their work, as well. How is it good for society to just dump a bunch of workers (CSR, artist or other) out of their jobs & say "tough luck"? Answer: it's really bad actually.

StarBright

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2023, 12:59:02 PM »
Arrogance? No need to be so mean-spirited about your fellow humans.

Here's my take:

The difference is that the AI is taking actual work that artists created. As of now, copyright protects creative works so that is illegal. From what you wrote, it sounds like you misunderstand this issue. I know it's an easier conversation to have when you make this a simple black and white issue with a clear enemy (in this case the "arrogant artists" as you called them are the problem).


^ this right here. It goes beyond visual art too. Though they are trying to make it legal by sticking AI clauses in lots of contracts.

In my past life I did voicework and commercial work and in this life I have had a chance to work on the digital side of things for both movies and artists.

Contracts are freaky about likeness and vocal rights now. I actually passed on a small side gig last year because it required that I sign away rights to my own voice (which could then be used for AI). Maybe you think that is arrogance, but I don't. It is my voice, it is an integral part of me and you can't create the AI product without the raw material that I spent years and years training and perfecting.

On the VFX side of things as soon as you've been cyber scanned you open yourself up to all sort of crazy stuff unless you lock your rights to yourself down. Robin Williams had the foresight to do this before he passed away. He blocked use of his digital file and film likeness for something like 30 years after his death. But every extra being run through a booth is giving someone a digital copy of themselves.

FWIW, I think we are hearing about this a lot right now because the WGA and SAG/AFTRA are strong unions. They also would probably be some of the first people out there supporting other groups if they unionize. I love my WGA, SAG, and Equity peeps and 100% support them.

rdaneel0

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2023, 01:52:21 PM »
  Yet nobody is jumping up and down in indigence about robbing them of their work and the creative efforts they apply in providing service.

I disagree with this assertion. The AI conversation has been going on for a while now and much of the focus of those conversations has been towards service/blue collar jobs, as it was assumed those would be replaced first (I agree that may have been an arrogant assumption in the vein of seeing some work as "unskilled"). It's only been recently that white collar and creative jobs have been discussed in this context, which I think you can see in things like the open letter to pause AI experimentation and the hiring pauses at places like IBM.

I agree with StarBright that the strength of the unions has a lot to do with the press right now around creative jobs, like writing. Another reason it's getting so much press is because news writers are likely to be highly invested in the outcome of this entertainment writers' strike, since their jobs are relatively similar in scope. They might feel they are the next on the chopping block.

To your note about other jobs being replaced: there is no service industry union. When AI comes for jobs in that sector there won't be the same power behind any strikes that happen, if they happen. There was also no strike when fast food places started using order-ahead apps, or touchscreens for ordering. Automation is already happening there and the pushback from employees has been minimal because they have far less social capital and less actual power than people like television and movie writers.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2023, 01:54:41 PM by rdaneel0 »

Dee18

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2023, 03:16:19 PM »
Ron, can you please tell more about the process you used to make that?  Was it online?  I have some slides from when I went to Africa years ago and I've decided I would like to have them made into large pieces for my living room.  Thanks.

dividendman

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2023, 03:50:06 PM »
Well said, @JupiterGreen


There are about 3 1/2 million customer service representatives working in America. Certainly many of them will lose their jobs in the next year or so to AAI.  Yet nobody is jumping up and down in indigence about robbing them of their work and the creative efforts they apply in providing service.

Somebody/we all *should* be "jumping up and down" about robbing those folks of their work, as well. How is it good for society to just dump a bunch of workers (CSR, artist or other) out of their jobs & say "tough luck"? Answer: it's really bad actually.

Citation needed.

We also don't have human beings plowing fields, we use machines for that. Perhaps we should lament those jobs, eliminate mechanical plows, and employ a lot more people.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2023, 04:42:55 PM »
ART!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geja6NCjgWY
omfg! I'm going to guess the prompt was "my sleep paralysis demon makes a beer commercial"

scottish

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2023, 04:56:03 PM »
ART!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geja6NCjgWY

Back at you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQLb9yjjHFg

I think all digital works and media should be cryptographically signed to provide provenance.    No signature == no provenance == no credibility.

Yes there are lots of technical problems, but you gotta start somewhere.   And this is easily within the range of capabilities of a gopro or other IOT device.

Kris

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2023, 05:27:11 PM »
Well… I am an author, full-time. Have been for 7 years. And I make a decent living at it. 6 figures per year since 2016.

I do not have time to write a long post, but you do not have a good grasp of the issue. Go back and read JupiterGreen’s post.

getsorted

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2023, 05:42:09 PM »
I now use AI tools on a regular basis at my job. This is what we realized in my department:

The hard part about doing commercial art and writing isn't making the art. It's getting clients to tell you what they want. My job is safe, because it's mainly being the interpreter for people who have very little idea of what they want the finished product to look like. And now, also, the interpreter for the AI.

As for fine art: I'm in several Midjourney groups. Midjourney is freaking hard! We've made some cool images, but most of us wouldn't even call them art. In the same way we don't call memes art, or the paintings in Marshall's art.

Moreover, how it's made is part of what makes people like and want art. Photo-realistic drawings are hugely popular, because part of the pleasure of looking at them is thinking, "Far out, man! Somebody DREW that!"

JupiterGreen

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2023, 06:35:30 PM »
ART!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geja6NCjgWY
This is great, ha! @scottish also funny though my health would improved if I never had to see another trump related thing in my lifetime.
thanks @Kris
@StarBright I don't know a lot of the details about how this is impacting the performing arts so your response was interesting to read. I wonder how some of these court cases will come down on the various ways AI is co-opting creative content in those areas. Same with creative/fiction writers, not my area but I believe it is (legally) still under the umbrella of creative content.

I also agree that we should not be celebrating any job losses and we need stronger unions for all industries. Eventually, the AI will probably take over because there is a lot of money to be made by replacing humans. As far as the arts, at least (for now) we get to enjoy art made by our brethren minds in meat suits.

Ron Scott

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2023, 08:55:38 PM »
Ron, can you please tell more about the process you used to make that?  Was it online?  I have some slides from when I went to Africa years ago and I've decided I would like to have them made into large pieces for my living room.  Thanks.

I used an app called Dream by the company Wombo. The really creative stuff is behind a paywall now but it’s a decent service. I think I’d be looking at Dall-E if I want to get more serious.

Ron Scott

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2023, 09:49:10 PM »
Just a few comments regarding some of the more critical posts above:

I am not sure the AI “takes actual work that the artists created“. But even if the AI was trained by studying artists, it would be generating art similarly to how humans do, by learning from others. Human artists study the work of previous artists, and in a sense stand on their shoulders when doing their work. So called “schools of art“ result from artists essentially copying the styles of each other.

As Picasso was supposed to have said, “Good artists borrow, great artists steal.“

But if copyright proves a real concern from a legal perspective, the AIs can create art in the style of artists whose work is no longer copyrighted. I believe copyright lasts 70 years after the death of the artist, so artists like van Gogh, Claude Monet, Edgar Degas, Paul Cézanne, Georges Seurat, and Henri Toulouse-Lautrec could be OK.

More importantly, AI programs do not need to copy the style of other artists to create their art. They can do it themselves. Some of the most advanced programs out there today can create high definition, photo quality art given text prompts. These images can then be manipulated by additional text prompts, without using a look “in the style of“ other artists.

When I create art using an AI program, the last thing I want to do is look like some other artist. I want it to look like my own.

The good news is that people who are naturally creative and have compelling ideas do not need to suffer the manual labor that used to be required. You just don’t need to study technique for 15 years to work it out. I think this will open up the creativity of the masses and I applaud it.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2023, 06:53:50 AM »
Just a few comments regarding some of the more critical posts above:

I am not sure the AI “takes actual work that the artists created“. But even if the AI was trained by studying artists, it would be generating art similarly to how humans do, by learning from others. Human artists study the work of previous artists, and in a sense stand on their shoulders when doing their work. So called “schools of art“ result from artists essentially copying the styles of each other.

As Picasso was supposed to have said, “Good artists borrow, great artists steal.“

But if copyright proves a real concern from a legal perspective, the AIs can create art in the style of artists whose work is no longer copyrighted. I believe copyright lasts 70 years after the death of the artist, so artists like van Gogh, Claude Monet, Edgar Degas, Paul Cézanne, Georges Seurat, and Henri Toulouse-Lautrec could be OK.

More importantly, AI programs do not need to copy the style of other artists to create their art. They can do it themselves. Some of the most advanced programs out there today can create high definition, photo quality art given text prompts. These images can then be manipulated by additional text prompts, without using a look “in the style of“ other artists.

When I create art using an AI program, the last thing I want to do is look like some other artist. I want it to look like my own.

The good news is that people who are naturally creative and have compelling ideas do not need to suffer the manual labor that used to be required. You just don’t need to study technique for 15 years to work it out. I think this will open up the creativity of the masses and I applaud it.




So, it basically "learns" the skills of the masters in seconds and "gives" them to monkeys.  "Priceless Masterpieces for Dummies".   I guess I'm too old school to see the upside of this.

GuitarStv

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2023, 07:25:01 AM »
Using an AI to create art at your behest seems little different than getting your car fixed at the local auto shop.  In the latter you're not fixing the car in the former you're not creating art - they're both just depending on someone else to do the actual job.  I can see how it would be handy for people who have no artistic ability, just as going to a mechanic is handy for someone with no mechanical ability though.

The difference between the mechanic and the AI though, is that the mechanic is following a manual that tells him where every bolt needs to be.  AIs cannot create anything truly new.  They work by a complicated system of plagiarism - where they plagiarize thousands of ideas simultaneously to generate a final product.  Like if you asked me to write about space travel, I went to the library and took out 50 books on space travel and then copied half a sentence from each book and glued them together into a cohesive few paragraphs - this wouldn't be caught by a teacher or professor (too complicated a form of plagiarism) . . . but it's definitely not original work.

If we allow AIs to destroy the ability to make money through art, then we'll end up with far fewer artists.  This in turn will mean that the AIs have less and less real original material to steal from.  We end up an ouroboros, perpetually eating our own tail and if not ending artistic creativity entirely then drastically limiting our exposure to new ideas.  To echo that line from Fight Club about insomnia - everything becomes a copy of a copy of a copy.  This seems like a very bad outcome to me.

theninthwall

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2023, 08:40:48 AM »
Just a few comments regarding some of the more critical posts above:

I am not sure the AI “takes actual work that the artists created“. But even if the AI was trained by studying artists, it would be generating art similarly to how humans do, by learning from others. Human artists study the work of previous artists, and in a sense stand on their shoulders when doing their work. So called “schools of art“ result from artists essentially copying the styles of each other.


That's basically how AI works though right? It relies on learning from a large set of data. But as you say, people do the same. The difference is that for the human it requires a level of discipline to attain the skill. Perhaps that is what gives the art value. I can purchase a variety of photos that show the Eiffel Tower in magnificent detail. But a plein air watercolor made by someone who was there still carries more value in an artistic sense. I think we may see the same thing in AI. In a way, we purchase part of someone's soul in art, the emotions within. Maybe our grandkids won't feel the same, maybe they will.


dividendman

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2023, 08:52:15 AM »
Using an AI to create art at your behest seems little different than getting your car fixed at the local auto shop.  In the latter you're not fixing the car in the former you're not creating art - they're both just depending on someone else to do the actual job.  I can see how it would be handy for people who have no artistic ability, just as going to a mechanic is handy for someone with no mechanical ability though.

The difference between the mechanic and the AI though, is that the mechanic is following a manual that tells him where every bolt needs to be.  AIs cannot create anything truly new.  They work by a complicated system of plagiarism - where they plagiarize thousands of ideas simultaneously to generate a final product.  Like if you asked me to write about space travel, I went to the library and took out 50 books on space travel and then copied half a sentence from each book and glued them together into a cohesive few paragraphs - this wouldn't be caught by a teacher or professor (too complicated a form of plagiarism) . . . but it's definitely not original work.

If we allow AIs to destroy the ability to make money through art, then we'll end up with far fewer artists.  This in turn will mean that the AIs have less and less real original material to steal from.  We end up an ouroboros, perpetually eating our own tail and if not ending artistic creativity entirely then drastically limiting our exposure to new ideas.  To echo that line from Fight Club about insomnia - everything becomes a copy of a copy of a copy.  This seems like a very bad outcome to me.

I think this depends on what "new" means. AIs can create new things (and more than just patching existing things together). They mostly do this through some kind of feedback mechanism with some randomness thrown in. I would say that if you take some amalgam visual art, or music beat or whatever, randomly add different colors/beats/sounds, this is now a new thing.

Our brains also do this. The "original" thought is pretty much existing thought based on observation + random crap.

JupiterGreen

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2023, 09:48:00 AM »
I'm confused about the purpose of this whole thread. So artist are both arrogant and god-like (your words not mine), but it also sounds like you're twisting yourself into a pretzel because you want so badly to be one.

The visual, performing, and literary arts are competitive fields, but at their core they are all just plain hard work. Things always seem magical when you don't know the inner workings. But people make their living in these fields (many here do). We are not being critical, we are trying to explain the industry. In the end, the internet is only going to give you so many sentences to try to back-up the assumptions you seem to have decided are true.

Quote
The good news is that people who are naturally creative and have compelling ideas do not need to suffer the manual labor that used to be required. You just don’t need to study technique for 15 years to work it out. I think this will open up the creativity of the masses and I applaud it.

You are discussing several different things at the same time. But whatever you are trying to say, it doesn't take 15 years to learn the basics. The world has already been opened up to "the creativity of the masses", because we live in a visual culture. That means virtually every industry either employs (on-site or contract) an artist. You have probably worked alongside one or two. It is also a growing industry. Artists are literally everywhere. AI may open that field up wider, that's great. You seem to think there is some sort of gatekeeping going on. Who hurt you bro? (okay that was snarky and I apologies for that, but c'mon it fit so well I'm keeping it and will live with the consequences). 

Why don't you just take a class? It's not hard to gather a bit of information here and there and a few quotes and call yourself an expert. The hard part about art (and anything for that matter) is sticking with the doing the hard work. Novices and Semi-professionals are the best at understanding what something takes because they generally tend to know enough to know what they don't know- that's what I would shoot for before making any hard and fast assumptions about how an industry/something works.


JGS1980

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2023, 10:02:42 AM »
Painters said the same things when the Daguerreotype first came out

Writers said the same things when the Motion-Pictures were invented

They are just humans trying to protect their turf, which is what humans do.

JGS

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2023, 10:30:56 AM »
...

The difference between the mechanic and the AI though, is that the mechanic is following a manual that tells him where every bolt needs to be.  AIs cannot create anything truly new.  They work by a complicated system of plagiarism - where they plagiarize thousands of ideas simultaneously to generate a final product.  Like if you asked me to write about space travel, I went to the library and took out 50 books on space travel and then copied half a sentence from each book and glued them together into a cohesive few paragraphs - this wouldn't be caught by a teacher or professor (too complicated a form of plagiarism) . . . but it's definitely not original work.

...

While I appreciate the entire content of your comment, I think this sentence is pretty noteworthy and I want to pull it out on it's own.

The act of going to the library, pulling out 50 books about space travel, copying a collection of sentences and putting it into a cohesive few paragraphs seems pretty similar to learning. I'd bet that almost any human who did that would come away with more understanding of space travel, even if the books weren't especially good. When I was a teaching assistant, I'd have been thrilled if students did something like that - because putting in the work is how you end up learning. The trick is that as a TA, I probably didn't give a fuck about some student's stitched together paragraphs - the value was that they put in the work. If the value was the end product paragraph I'd have written it myself (or, maybe, gotten an AI to write it).

The act of sitting with problems, understanding a body of literature, developing a set of skills, etc; that act gives people insight and a sense of accomplishment. I tend to believe that the insight and accomplishment has value outside of the end product. An enormous amount of our professional lives involve developing bullshit end products that few people care about. The obvious solution to me is that we cut out the bullshit, but maybe having AI build the bullshit is almost as good at a macro-scale.

At the individual level, how we manage these tools to ensure that we still have a society that's mostly full of people who feel like they have an opportunity to live rewarding, purposeful lives? Whew, that's going to be tricky without some pretty deliberate work.

FIREandMONEY

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2023, 01:48:53 PM »
Arrogance? No need to be so mean-spirited about your fellow humans.

Just giving my $0.02 to show how different people interpret this, but discussing somebody's or a group's perceived arrogance is not anything I find mean-spirited.

Here's my take:

The difference is that the AI is taking actual work that artists created. As of now, copyright protects creative works so that is illegal. From what you wrote, it sounds like you misunderstand this issue. I know it's an easier conversation to have when you make this a simple black and white issue with a clear enemy (in this case the "arrogant artists" as you called them are the problem). But let's clarify a few things.

1. The technology is not the problem
Photoshop is a good example to explain this point. Photoshop is also a program (it is technology) that took on some of the workflow of photographers/digital artists. When it first came out, it was also lauded as "the end" for artists (so was the camera). Photoshop is simply a tool and it is a tool used by artists to save time.

2. AI is breaking the (current) law.
The digital art created by Midjourney (and the like) can often still be recognized as being made by the original artists (sometimes even retaining the signature/watermark). AI programs are breaking copyright laws because the image is still recognizable as the original (the original image is protected under copyright law). It is also why there are several important court cases pending on this topic.


Right, right, agreed.

Part of the reason for the subjective misunderstanding of art is that arts education has been destroyed (at least in the US). So this common misconception comes down to ignorance (that is not an insult, ignorance is defines as simply not knowing something). People mistake their artistic taste (what you personally like) with good art. But that is a bit arrogant because it's not about us personally. Art has a long history that has followed humans through our entire timeline on this planet. There is a lot to know about this topic including history, materials/tech., the conventions, as well as specific (and logical) things about our (humans) eyes and brains etc. So just because someone likes it does not automatically make it good art (or even art for that matter). You have every right to express your opinion and like and dislike whatever the heck you want, and I will agree there a some grey areas when it comes to art, but most professional art is uncontested by people who know a thing or two about it. The more a person learns about this (and any subject), the more we understand the subject.

My prediction is that the court cases will get sorted and AI art will be in the same category as any other technology artists’ use (rulers, the camera, digital programs, etc.). AI can spit out these hybridizations of stolen images and we may eventually call this art someday, but we are not there yet. It's going to take artists to train it to ultimately make great art. Hobby artists will feel good about using it, just like we do with the cameras on our phones. But without understanding the subject and all the nuances of image-making, we will be amateurs and that’s okay! I can enjoy a bike ride, playing basketball, or even guessing where my liver is without become a professional athlete or medical professional. No big deal, it will be what it will be. AI needs humans for input. If AI technologies become artists then it would be sentient and we (humans) have bigger problems than to bicker over the "arrogance of artists".

I wear many hats in my life and one of them is an artist.  I grew up the son of an artist and have been involved in art my entire life.  As of late, I've been quite successful and in my spare time have turned my art into a 5-figure business annually over the last decade. 

I disagree quite vehemently with the above bolded part as an artist and someone who has also studied art in a classroom setting at university.  Your description is too absolute.  I agree partially, with what you are saying, but the hubris of the "art community" is shining through much too brightly.  I believe the main issue it trying to define "not good art".  Art is art and it talks to a person individually.  Trying to define a piece as or "bad" or even "not art", is just the arrogance of humanity (and academia in particular). 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2023, 12:29:59 PM by FIREandMONEY »

mistymoney

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2023, 02:22:35 PM »
have not read all replies, but the key difference for me is that customer service representatives mainly do a job according to the processes and rules provided, and so AI can also follow those processes and rules and get it right most of the time/95%/99% whatever....and getting better as it identifies outliers and the solutions.

whereas AI art is copying and combining the work of many human artists. So with AI script writing - AI is essentially plagarizing human wirters - yet is able to sample over 1000s of individual writers such that no one can claim copywriter and get compensation for the plagarism.

But it is still plagarism.


achvfi

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2023, 02:35:28 PM »
Facepalm

I don't know the solution. My stand is any content that is used to train AI service needs source's permission, acknowledge the source and compensate the source. There is an opportunity to make this win-win for all stakeholders.

Otherwise its stealing in someway.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2023, 03:52:58 PM »
AI will outsmart any legal means attempting to regulate it.  That's the nature of AI, right?

scottish

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2023, 05:39:50 PM »
...

The difference between the mechanic and the AI though, is that the mechanic is following a manual that tells him where every bolt needs to be.  AIs cannot create anything truly new.  They work by a complicated system of plagiarism - where they plagiarize thousands of ideas simultaneously to generate a final product.  Like if you asked me to write about space travel, I went to the library and took out 50 books on space travel and then copied half a sentence from each book and glued them together into a cohesive few paragraphs - this wouldn't be caught by a teacher or professor (too complicated a form of plagiarism) . . . but it's definitely not original work.

...

While I appreciate the entire content of your comment, I think this sentence is pretty noteworthy and I want to pull it out on it's own.

The act of going to the library, pulling out 50 books about space travel, copying a collection of sentences and putting it into a cohesive few paragraphs seems pretty similar to learning. I'd bet that almost any human who did that would come away with more understanding of space travel, even if the books weren't especially good. When I was a teaching assistant, I'd have been thrilled if students did something like that - because putting in the work is how you end up learning. The trick is that as a TA, I probably didn't give a fuck about some student's stitched together paragraphs - the value was that they put in the work. If the value was the end product paragraph I'd have written it myself (or, maybe, gotten an AI to write it).

The act of sitting with problems, understanding a body of literature, developing a set of skills, etc; that act gives people insight and a sense of accomplishment. I tend to believe that the insight and accomplishment has value outside of the end product. An enormous amount of our professional lives involve developing bullshit end products that few people care about. The obvious solution to me is that we cut out the bullshit, but maybe having AI build the bullshit is almost as good at a macro-scale.

At the individual level, how we manage these tools to ensure that we still have a society that's mostly full of people who feel like they have an opportunity to live rewarding, purposeful lives? Whew, that's going to be tricky without some pretty deliberate work.

Just to complete the analogy, suppose your student didn't actually understand any of the material, he just copied randomly selected bits together in a grammatically correct way.

Does it still seem like learning?

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2023, 06:32:14 PM »
...

The difference between the mechanic and the AI though, is that the mechanic is following a manual that tells him where every bolt needs to be.  AIs cannot create anything truly new.  They work by a complicated system of plagiarism - where they plagiarize thousands of ideas simultaneously to generate a final product.  Like if you asked me to write about space travel, I went to the library and took out 50 books on space travel and then copied half a sentence from each book and glued them together into a cohesive few paragraphs - this wouldn't be caught by a teacher or professor (too complicated a form of plagiarism) . . . but it's definitely not original work.

...

While I appreciate the entire content of your comment, I think this sentence is pretty noteworthy and I want to pull it out on it's own.

The act of going to the library, pulling out 50 books about space travel, copying a collection of sentences and putting it into a cohesive few paragraphs seems pretty similar to learning. I'd bet that almost any human who did that would come away with more understanding of space travel, even if the books weren't especially good. When I was a teaching assistant, I'd have been thrilled if students did something like that - because putting in the work is how you end up learning. The trick is that as a TA, I probably didn't give a fuck about some student's stitched together paragraphs - the value was that they put in the work. If the value was the end product paragraph I'd have written it myself (or, maybe, gotten an AI to write it).

The act of sitting with problems, understanding a body of literature, developing a set of skills, etc; that act gives people insight and a sense of accomplishment. I tend to believe that the insight and accomplishment has value outside of the end product. An enormous amount of our professional lives involve developing bullshit end products that few people care about. The obvious solution to me is that we cut out the bullshit, but maybe having AI build the bullshit is almost as good at a macro-scale.

At the individual level, how we manage these tools to ensure that we still have a society that's mostly full of people who feel like they have an opportunity to live rewarding, purposeful lives? Whew, that's going to be tricky without some pretty deliberate work.

Just to complete the analogy, suppose your student didn't actually understand any of the material, he just copied randomly selected bits together in a grammatically correct way.

Does it still seem like learning?
I think we have a poor intuition of what's happening with a system that has tuned billions of parameters based on reading and "learning" from a significant percentage of everything that's ever been written. In one view, it's fair to say anything that such a system outputs is just based on very subtle correlations in the textual data that it ingested, meaning that it is not at all creative and merely maps inputs via matrix multiplication into outputs. Another view is that this mapping process is, at least in part, what intelligence is.

The second thing to note is how LLMs have been able to generalize to domains on which they haven't been trained at all; .e.g., GPT4 learning to draw even though it was trained on nothing but words. I think this sort of emergence of capabilities is a combination of it being smart, in a certain sense, as well as pointing to the richness of the latent information that exists across the massive corpus of its training text. The most interesting thing about LLMs to me is how their increasing competence challenges our notion of intelligence and creativity, and I think labeling what it does "regurgitation" or "plagiarism" as far too reductive.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 06:34:43 PM by lost_in_the_endless_aisle »

Ron Scott

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2023, 04:34:26 AM »
Does using Photoshop or some features of almost every modern camera strip a photographer of her status as an artist?

Many photographers creat beautiful artistic images using Photoshop. Many of the tools in Photoshop are powered by artificial intelligence. These tools use AI to automate tasks that would otherwise be time-consuming or difficult, such as removing objects from photos, enhancing colors, and creating realistic textures.

Photoshop can also reproduce an input photo as a painting, showing brushstrokes, and the imperfections of a painted picture without using the style of any particular painter. There are a few different ways to do this.

One way is to use the Filter Gallery. For example, you could use the Dry Brush filter to create a painting with thick, textured brushstrokes, or the Oil Paint filter to create a painting with smooth, painterly brushstrokes.

Or you can try the Brush Tool. With the Brush Tool, you can manually paint over your photo to create the look of brushstrokes. You can adjust the size, shape, and opacity of the brush to create different effects.

You can also use Photoshop's Neural Filters to create a painterly look in your photos. Neural Filters are a new feature in Photoshop that use artificial intelligence to create realistic effects. There is a Neural Filter called Painting that can be used to create a painting from a photo.

And you don’t even need to use photoshop to create photography which is a reinvention of an image of the natural world. One of my favorite techniques is shooting a long exposure of water falling over rocks in a small stream. If done correctly, the surrounding areas of the stream remain frozen while the water looks transcendent.

Art?

Davnasty

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2023, 06:31:12 AM »
This comes on the heels of the significant number of articles in the mainstream press about artists up in arms over AI. Writers are striking in Hollywood in part to prohibit studios from writing scripts using AI. And visual artist are suing to ensure their “style“ is not used in the creation of AI art. Both the writers and the visual artists want to protect their livelihoods from new technology.

Could you provide links to some of these articles you are referring to?

It was pointed out that artists who are suing are doing so because their works are still recognizable in the AI produced art. Now you're making the case that Photoshop doesn't need to use the style of any particular artist to create realistic paintings, but is that what any of these lawsuits were about?

Ron Scott

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2023, 01:16:25 PM »
Google news for “artists suing AI providers”.

AI is diverse and tools are all around us. And there’s middle ground between copying a single artist’s style and using your own art-sketches with AI enhancements: You can generate art using a style-of-art that many artists work on. For example, recreating a photo of your own as an “impressionist” painting. A significant number of human artists borrowed/stole from each other in this genre.

I’m guessing the hoopla over styles dies a natural death as people discover they can create better with just AI and their own creativity. Reducing the time and effort between the idea and the final work of art is a good thing for humanity.

In the meantime, I do NOT think the vast majority of artists are worth more than other workers. The screen writers labor demands on the use of AI for example seem way out of line to me. (You can Google that too. )


mspym

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2023, 02:31:30 PM »
Here is a short but good explainer about what’s going on with the writers strike. Basically, large media companies are eating their own seed corn and hoping AI will patch the holes and meanwhile the same people who are complaining about movies and shows not being any good any more are also supporting the very actions that are causing the loss of quality and originality.
- https://youtu.be/6HEheIozS5c

scottish

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2023, 04:52:10 PM »
...

The difference between the mechanic and the AI though, is that the mechanic is following a manual that tells him where every bolt needs to be.  AIs cannot create anything truly new.  They work by a complicated system of plagiarism - where they plagiarize thousands of ideas simultaneously to generate a final product.  Like if you asked me to write about space travel, I went to the library and took out 50 books on space travel and then copied half a sentence from each book and glued them together into a cohesive few paragraphs - this wouldn't be caught by a teacher or professor (too complicated a form of plagiarism) . . . but it's definitely not original work.

...

While I appreciate the entire content of your comment, I think this sentence is pretty noteworthy and I want to pull it out on it's own.

The act of going to the library, pulling out 50 books about space travel, copying a collection of sentences and putting it into a cohesive few paragraphs seems pretty similar to learning. I'd bet that almost any human who did that would come away with more understanding of space travel, even if the books weren't especially good. When I was a teaching assistant, I'd have been thrilled if students did something like that - because putting in the work is how you end up learning. The trick is that as a TA, I probably didn't give a fuck about some student's stitched together paragraphs - the value was that they put in the work. If the value was the end product paragraph I'd have written it myself (or, maybe, gotten an AI to write it).

The act of sitting with problems, understanding a body of literature, developing a set of skills, etc; that act gives people insight and a sense of accomplishment. I tend to believe that the insight and accomplishment has value outside of the end product. An enormous amount of our professional lives involve developing bullshit end products that few people care about. The obvious solution to me is that we cut out the bullshit, but maybe having AI build the bullshit is almost as good at a macro-scale.

At the individual level, how we manage these tools to ensure that we still have a society that's mostly full of people who feel like they have an opportunity to live rewarding, purposeful lives? Whew, that's going to be tricky without some pretty deliberate work.

Just to complete the analogy, suppose your student didn't actually understand any of the material, he just copied randomly selected bits together in a grammatically correct way.

Does it still seem like learning?
I think we have a poor intuition of what's happening with a system that has tuned billions of parameters based on reading and "learning" from a significant percentage of everything that's ever been written. In one view, it's fair to say anything that such a system outputs is just based on very subtle correlations in the textual data that it ingested, meaning that it is not at all creative and merely maps inputs via matrix multiplication into outputs. Another view is that this mapping process is, at least in part, what intelligence is.

The second thing to note is how LLMs have been able to generalize to domains on which they haven't been trained at all; .e.g., GPT4 learning to draw even though it was trained on nothing but words. I think this sort of emergence of capabilities is a combination of it being smart, in a certain sense, as well as pointing to the richness of the latent information that exists across the massive corpus of its training text. The most interesting thing about LLMs to me is how their increasing competence challenges our notion of intelligence and creativity, and I think labeling what it does "regurgitation" or "plagiarism" as far too reductive.

GPT-4 was trained on images as well as text.   Models don't learn things that aren't in their training data.    Do you happen to work in the field?   

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2023, 04:57:46 PM »
...

The difference between the mechanic and the AI though, is that the mechanic is following a manual that tells him where every bolt needs to be.  AIs cannot create anything truly new.  They work by a complicated system of plagiarism - where they plagiarize thousands of ideas simultaneously to generate a final product.  Like if you asked me to write about space travel, I went to the library and took out 50 books on space travel and then copied half a sentence from each book and glued them together into a cohesive few paragraphs - this wouldn't be caught by a teacher or professor (too complicated a form of plagiarism) . . . but it's definitely not original work.

...

While I appreciate the entire content of your comment, I think this sentence is pretty noteworthy and I want to pull it out on it's own.

The act of going to the library, pulling out 50 books about space travel, copying a collection of sentences and putting it into a cohesive few paragraphs seems pretty similar to learning. I'd bet that almost any human who did that would come away with more understanding of space travel, even if the books weren't especially good. When I was a teaching assistant, I'd have been thrilled if students did something like that - because putting in the work is how you end up learning. The trick is that as a TA, I probably didn't give a fuck about some student's stitched together paragraphs - the value was that they put in the work. If the value was the end product paragraph I'd have written it myself (or, maybe, gotten an AI to write it).

The act of sitting with problems, understanding a body of literature, developing a set of skills, etc; that act gives people insight and a sense of accomplishment. I tend to believe that the insight and accomplishment has value outside of the end product. An enormous amount of our professional lives involve developing bullshit end products that few people care about. The obvious solution to me is that we cut out the bullshit, but maybe having AI build the bullshit is almost as good at a macro-scale.

At the individual level, how we manage these tools to ensure that we still have a society that's mostly full of people who feel like they have an opportunity to live rewarding, purposeful lives? Whew, that's going to be tricky without some pretty deliberate work.

Just to complete the analogy, suppose your student didn't actually understand any of the material, he just copied randomly selected bits together in a grammatically correct way.

Does it still seem like learning?
I think we have a poor intuition of what's happening with a system that has tuned billions of parameters based on reading and "learning" from a significant percentage of everything that's ever been written. In one view, it's fair to say anything that such a system outputs is just based on very subtle correlations in the textual data that it ingested, meaning that it is not at all creative and merely maps inputs via matrix multiplication into outputs. Another view is that this mapping process is, at least in part, what intelligence is.

The second thing to note is how LLMs have been able to generalize to domains on which they haven't been trained at all; .e.g., GPT4 learning to draw even though it was trained on nothing but words. I think this sort of emergence of capabilities is a combination of it being smart, in a certain sense, as well as pointing to the richness of the latent information that exists across the massive corpus of its training text. The most interesting thing about LLMs to me is how their increasing competence challenges our notion of intelligence and creativity, and I think labeling what it does "regurgitation" or "plagiarism" as far too reductive.

GPT-4 was trained on images as well as text.   Models don't learn things that aren't in their training data.    Do you happen to work in the field?
The image I attached to my previous comment was not from the multimodal version of GPT4 -- it was the text-only version that was studied during model training and pre-RLHF. I work in a field much closer to Artificial Stupidity than AI.

Chris Pascale

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2023, 09:19:06 PM »
I'm not worried about AI for the following reasons:

1. There's nothing I can do about where this goes or what role it winds up playing in our lives, so worrying won't get me anywhere anyway.
2. I know for a fact it's not as good as currently being advertised in the fake articles about when the "Economist asked AI to write a 500 page paper and it was 'scary good'." or when "Students say they will get all A's and never study again".
3. I'm curious to know if I can harness this technology for my own benefit. Could I get an AI-generated initial draft that I can then source, fact-check, edit, correct, and give my own voice to?

ender

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2023, 09:31:37 PM »
I feel like this thread has the word "art" used wholly inappropriately and inconsistently.

Lumping writing (such as for shows) with music with painting etc is just... weird, when it comes to trying to categorically answer how AI will help/hurt as broad of as societally broad term as "artists."

Personally? A few examples:

I don't care at all about how some art is generated. Scripts for a tv show? Meh, I care about whether the show is good. AI? Human? doesn't matter.

Music? I find it far more meaningful purely because a humans are creating it. The intangible value there isn't the outcome (ie what you hear), it's the process. The subtle imperfections add soul to music.

Photography vs AI generated images? A lot of times, the photo represents something else again. And in a lot of cases whether it's a real photo or AI generated actually matters as a result.

We can talk about whether the people creating the various forms feel the way they do, which is reasonable. But there's so much more nuance than this conversation is trying to start.

Ron Scott

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2023, 04:34:02 AM »
I don't care at all about how some art is generated. Scripts for a tv show? Meh, I care about whether the show is good. AI? Human? doesn't matter.

Music? I find it far more meaningful purely because a humans are creating it. The intangible value there isn't the outcome (ie what you hear), it's the process. The subtle imperfections add soul to music.

Photography vs AI generated images? A lot of times, the photo represents something else again. And in a lot of cases whether it's a real photo or AI generated actually matters as a result.

Given the early stage in development of AI, I have to agree with your human vs. machine assessment. But I disagree with what you imply as a general rule. In fact I believe you have the proper assessment of art pretty much backwards.

Let’s assume that, tech being tech, AI becomes far more capable and sophisticated in the next few years—to the point that the average consumer does a poor job distinguishing art created by man vs. machine. At that point someone would have to tell you whether a human or an AI created the art for you to make your assessment, and the art itself would be insufficient for you to make a judgment.

I believe art needs to stand alone—unsupported by the stature of the artist—and speak for itself as to its value. I don’t give a shit what the artist “intended” the work of art to mean, whether the art is somehow autobiographical, whether it speaks a truth to the artist, or whether it was created purely to enrich him. There is me and there is the art, and I interact with it and perceive it and that is all that matters.

In your theory of art, the creator takes prominence. (That can of soup is worth $8M—not because it’s great art but because it’s A WARHOL!) This is what the art-industry wants us to focus on. To me, the creator is immaterial, and all that matters is the art itself and my perception of it.


BicycleB

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2023, 04:53:06 AM »
Ptf so that I can use the posts to train my new pet AI, MustacheGPT.

StarBright

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2023, 06:34:03 AM »

I believe art needs to stand alone—unsupported by the stature of the artist—and speak for itself as to its value. I don’t give a shit what the artist “intended” the work of art to mean, whether the art is somehow autobiographical, whether it speaks a truth to the artist, or whether it was created purely to enrich him. There is me and there is the art, and I interact with it and perceive it and that is all that matters.

In your theory of art, the creator takes prominence. (That can of soup is worth $8M—not because it’s great art but because it’s A WARHOL!) This is what the art-industry wants us to focus on. To me, the creator is immaterial, and all that matters is the art itself and my perception of it.

It sort of seems like you want to change the definition of art? Which is cool for you and, honestly, may absolutely happen if people want AI pictures to count as Art. The meanings of words change over time and maybe "art" will too. 

But the OED currently defines art in the following ways:
1.
the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
"the art of the Renaissance"
Similar:
fine art
artwork
creative activity
works produced by human creative skill and imagination.
"his collection of modern art"
Similar:
fine art
artwork
creative activity
creative activity resulting in the production of paintings, drawings, or sculpture.
"she's good at art"


Art has everything to do with the artists' intent and ultimately very little to do with the audience beyond what the artist is trying to communicate. Like- yes, the creator absolutely takes prominence - because art is "human creative skill and imagination." There is a reason a Warhol is a "Warhol" and my photo of a soup can is not given the same weight.

In a similar vein - I absolutely emotionally connect to snapshots, but they aren't art. My emotional connection does not make them art.

AI is iterative, but not creative. I can absolutely see AI becoming a tool in the tool box for an artist (and I work at a company that uses the latest digital technologies to help artists so I know of what I speak), but saying "give me a picture of a train going through a nebula that creates a feeling of ennui" does not cross that threshold by any current definition or practice.

GuitarStv

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2023, 07:39:04 AM »
Ptf so that I can use the posts to train my new pet AI, MustacheGPT.

I already made RealMustacheGPT.  It just responds with 'buy VTSAX', '4% rule', and 'ride a bike' to whatever questions you ask it.  :P

Ron Scott

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2023, 08:29:31 AM »
I absolutely emotionally connect to snapshots, but they aren't art. My emotional connection does not make them art.

That’s fine…for you.

I have images taken with older generation phones, some shot through windows in the rain, that are as much works of art as any other.

I love art. Human and AI-related artists are just a channel. Their work is what excites me, not what they have to say about their work. I take artists’ commentaries about their work with a grain of salt.

But you’re making an argument others have made too. In fact, according to the Encyclopedia of Philosophy “Interpretation in art refers to the attribution of meaning to a work. A point on which people often disagree is whether the artist’s or author’s intention is relevant to the interpretation of the work.” I simply enjoy experiencing art and have no interest in what the artist says about. That fact that you think I’m wrong is meaningless to me.

Tom Waites was asked once what his song “Get Behind The Mule” means. He said it means whatever you want it to mean. My man…!


ender

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2023, 08:57:17 AM »
.... so basically, if I understand this right:

  • you've decided what art is/isn't
  • your definition disagrees with the dictionary definition
  • you've decided anyone who disagrees is just wrong (even about their personal lived experience)
  • you've decided many of those who disagree and are also artists are arrogant

Anything I'm missing?

Paul der Krake

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2023, 09:14:11 AM »
Soon new norms will arise and there is going to be a premium put on human effort, just like there is today with "homemade". The idea that artists are going to be able to sue this into the ground is laughably naive. At best there may be some minor concessions at the margin for truly remarkable art, and courts will figure out where those lines are. The vast vast majority of what creative professionals produce today will not be covered. This genie ain't going back in no bottle.

A lot of the more mundane creative jobs that are like, create decor for a Holiday Inn, are gonna be automated away.

I don't worry about people losing jobs when unemployment is at 3.5%. We will find new, better jobs for the unlucky ones, and that's good, just like replacing ditch diggers and agricultural workers was good.

StarBright

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Re: The interesting arrogance of artists
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2023, 10:20:28 AM »

Tom Waites was asked once what his song “Get Behind The Mule” means. He said it means whatever you want it to mean. My man…!

You and I are probably not going to agree on this at all. So I should just drop it. But I feel the need to say that figuring out what artwork "means" is an interpretation of art that negates a huge chunk of art created in the 20th and 21st centuries.

An artist's intention and what a piece of artwork means can be two totally different things.

Meaning is only one lens through which art might be created. There are entire movements and schools of thought meant to question the absence of meaning, or that are merely about formal (material) experimentation, or about a vibe, or about psychological experimentation.

It seems like you want to take something you like and call it art. You do you! It is great that you like things and are passionate about them! But do you need to insult other people to make your point?

You started off a whole thread by calling artists arrogant and then it seems like you aren't down with what art is or what artists do (by a common definition of art). So your premise is wacky.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2023, 06:58:50 AM by StarBright »