The Greatest Generation and financial wisdom

[ChiStache]

Now that I'm entering real adulthood and expecting my first kid, I find myself thinking back to my late-paternal grandparents and the simple, frugal home they built. It occurs to me that there's a lot of wisdom to gain by reflecting back on the way people of that generation did things.***

My grandfather ran his own business - a small car lot. My grandmother was a nurse, but left the workforce to raise four sons. She worked as the camp nurse at the boys' summer camp to get them admitted at a discount. They bought a home, and then lived in that same home their whole lives. My grandfather built an addition on the home and made other improvements over the years. They were extremely debt averse. They were always thankful for food on the table and a roof over the head - recognizing that many in the world were worse off. They amassed a large portfolio which allowed them to travel in their later years and then allowed my grandmother to afford very good medical care and almost 15 years of nursing home care after she was diagnosed with alzheimers. They gave generously to charity throughout their lives.

Would anyone else like to share some reflections on the greatest generation? I'd be interested to hear the groups' thoughts.

***Of course, many of the changes we've seen since that generation are also structural (credit's way easier to come by now, loss of skilled labor jobs, etc.). But, I thought I'd leave discussion of those thing for another post for now.

[Cassie]

LIfe was more focused on what is important-getting a good education, raising a family etc without having to spend a ton of $.  Everyone I knew took a vacation but not an expensive one-usually was camping or staying at a cabin-nothing fancy. You entertained yourself by fishing, swimming, playing cards at nite-no TV, etc. 

[Cassie]

Flostache, you are so right! My grandfather was in WWI & my dad in WWII.  My dad thought he would be gone a year & was overseas for 4. Imagine going that long and not seeing your family.  Once my Mom was talking about how you hung something on your door if you had a family member serving (some type of symbol) and the color was different if the person was dead or alive. She said it was very chilling to walk by homes everyday and see the colors change.  Families of that era were content gathering in each others home for entertainment.

[DollarBill]

LIfe was more focused on what is important-getting a good education, raising a family etc without having to spend a ton of $.  Everyone I knew took a vacation but not an expensive one-usually was camping or staying at a cabin-nothing fancy. You entertained yourself by fishing, swimming, playing cards at nite-no TV, etc.

Now that's good livin :)

[Cassie]

Since I am old that is how I spent my childhood. Tons of great memories doing many free family/friend things.  My Dad would come home after work & either take us on errands with him, play with us, etc while my Mom made dinner. Those memories are really priceless.

[Daisy]

From the perspective of having immigrant parents and grandparents (3 countries in 3 generations - one move searching for a better life and another escaping communism)...

- Your biggest asset is your education and drive to succeed (this includes skills needed for living - cooking, sewing, etc.).
- Your relationship with family and friends should be nurtured. They are what get you through tough times and support you.
- Even if everything is taken away from you, stay focused and positive and renew your life.
- Be alert to what's happening in your surroundings and be able to act to change your circumstances if needed.

[kkbmustang]

My grandparents and parents taught me the importance of education. I was the first girl on either side of the family to graduate from college or graduate school. My mom's mom only finished 8th grade but she ran a tight ship in her home. She raised 6 kids on a lay minister's salary. In other words, they were dirt poor. My dad's mom finished high school, worked as a bookkeeper while raising 4 boys while my grandfather worked a blue collar job in a plant.

They taught me to be faithful, to love God and perform acts of service for the benefit of others. They taught me to save every last scrap of food to make soup and to not be wasteful. I'm still working on that last one.

Most of all, they taught me to cherish my family.

[CarDude]

I learned not to take stupid risks. As old as I am, this is one I'm still learning!

[Eurotexan]

It's so true.

As I change my spending habits and work towards FIRE, I realize I am almost becoming my parents (now in their 70s). I remember growing up.. they grew vegetables in the garden, eating out was only for special occasions and only a couple of times a year. They would walk when they could, instead of driving, and put a sweater on if they got cold, rather than crank up the AC.

30 years ago this was the norm, now it's really only the mustacians doing these things... what a crazy world we live in today

[Thegoblinchief]

+1 to what's been mentioned, but the thing that really strikes me are the relative size of houses, and what people think kids "need".

My kids share a 10x10 room and, more often than not, they all pile into our bedroom and sleep in our bed with us or on the floor for the older two.

The perceived need for large houses with individual bedrooms drives so much about the economy: big houses, suburban sprawl, late retirement since these enormous houses are so expensive...

Kids need food, love, and sunshine.

[MrsPete]

Yes, looking at my family, I see good lessons in the past. 

I totally agree that people a generation or two ago had better sense when it comes to housing:  Out on the country farms where I'm from, it was very typical in my grandparents' generation for a young couple to build a small house for themselves and live in it their whole lives.  My grandmother says it was typical for people to build tall one-bedroom houses with space for attic bedrooms, bedrooms which could be added when the children arrived.  And when the girls grew old enough "to court", they'd add on a living room -- always at the front of the house, which was considered proper.  Then if one of the children stayed on the farm once the parents had grown elderly, they'd take over "the house" and the now-elderly couple'd take the "courting room" as their bedroom. 

My husband's people were city folks on the other end of the state, but they also stayed in small houses.  His grandparents raised three kids in a 2-bedroom house probably around 1000 sf.  The kids shared the second bedroom 'til they were teens, then the boys kept the bedroom and one girl slept on the sofa.  His grandmother lived in this house as long as she was able to take care of herself. 

But today, even starter houses are expected to be "more" than our grandparents had. 

I'd add to the thoughts on housing:

- Our grandparents didn't expect to start out out in a comfortable middle-class life.  My grandparents chose Christmas Eve as their wedding day because it was the only day my grandfather wasn't working.  They started their married life renting two rooms upstairs in an old woman's house.  They cooked on a hot plate.  My grandmother owned that hot plate 'til the day she died.  A phone and a TV were things to which they aspired. 

- Our grandparents didn't accept debt as a way of life.  My grandparents both went to college.  One started at community college, then earned a full scholarship to a prestigious university for his last two years.  The other paid for a part of her tuition in turnips and other vegetables (her father delivered them straight to the college cafeteria); her father also sold hogs for her tuition.  She used to say that when she was young, you saved for anything you had.  My grandmother told me that when she and my grandfather built their house (1.5 years into their marriage), their house payment was $27/month, and sometimes it was hard to make that payment! 

-  Someone else mentioned the importance of family and friends, but don't leave out church.  Our grandparents had their priorities in the right place in that respect too.  In today's entertainment-driven world, we pay lip service to the importance of family, friends, and God; but the way we spend our time shows that they're not our real priorities.

[Undecided]

Unsustainable retirement benefits, public and private, partly reliant on unsustainable levels of population growth, must have been nice; they make me less impressed by that generations frugality. Do you have some reason to think they were better about not spending every penny of the money that was within individual control? Overall, I see it as (an unintentional, individually) pillaging of the future.

[Prairie Stash]

My husband's people were city folks on the other end of the state, but they also stayed in small houses.  His grandparents raised three kids in a 2-bedroom house probably around 1000 sf.  The kids shared the second bedroom 'til they were teens, then the boys kept the bedroom and one girl slept on the sofa.  His grandmother lived in this house as long as she was able to take care of herself. 

But today, even starter houses are expected to be "more" than our grandparents had. 

My house is 940 sf, 3 bedrooms.  The easiest route to FI is a smaller house IMO.

My grandparents were sufficient farmers.  They grew vegetables in the garden, grains, cattle (some were milked, some were just for beef) and sold wood in the winter. If a financial crisis hit I doubt he would have noticed. They had several income streams of different sizes; beef, pork, milk, eggs, butter, wheat and other grains, firewood, lumber (ran a sawmill), furs (trapping was acceptable) and actual jobs.  They also had barter goods with neighbours, all tax free; from trading labour, hay, any of the sale goods etc. Most of the income streams were tiny, but the cumulative amounts fed the family. 

Their key was to diversify income and not be reliant on the outside world.

[ChiStache]

The housing comments are interesting. My house is about 1200 square feet. I have had multiple friends/family members comment that we'll want to move to a bigger place when we have kids.

My grandparents had a family of **SEVEN** (mom, dad, 4 boys, and grandma) in a similar sized home. No big deal in that day and age.

[Thegoblinchief]

The housing comments are interesting. My house is about 1200 square feet. I have had multiple friends/family members comment that we'll want to move to a bigger place when we have kids.

My grandparents had a family of **SEVEN** (mom, dad, 4 boys, and grandma) in a similar sized home. No big deal in that day and age.

I have three in 730 sqft, 2 bed, 1 bath. Plenty big. The only thing I really wish we had is a second toilet but I'm scared to even get quotes on roughing in drains in basement.

[golden1]

Yep...I live in a town that was mainly populated in the mid 50's so a lot of the houses were from that era.  Most of them are 1500ish sq ft or so.  As the houses get torn down and replaced, the houses going up are 3000 sqftish.  Crazy! 

[Jomar]

While I agree to a certain extent with what you're saying, I'm kind of tired of the praise we heap on the "Greatest Generation". My wife's grandmother, for example, drives a brand new Lexus, lives in a 2000+ sq ft condo, owns a second condo in Phoenix and owns a second brand new car in Phoenix for when she's down there (about a month a year as she still works full time in her 70s)! My Nana lives in Vegas and gambles like there's no tomorrow. My grandad lives in a multi-level 1500 sq ft house he and his wife bought brand new just a decade ago (and he's in his 80s now and has severe arthritis), and it's in a suburban location basically only accessible by car (and they drive a Ford Flex, purchased new). If you ask me, these were all terrible ideas (although of course I love my grandparents). My wife and I, on the other hand, just bought our first house, coming in at a paltry 1040 sq ft. It's over 100 years old and is within walking/biking distance of work for both of us. We drive a 16 year old Subaru (and most of the miles that get put on it are reimbursed by my work at $0.54/km). We own an investment property (we're 27). These are things my grandparents wouldn't have considered. All of them bought new houses in the burbs, drove brand new cars, replaced every 5 years or so, and worked until late in life. I think I'll stick with my generation's example instead, thanks!

[steveo]

My grandad woke up and had a glass of whiskey every day. He also smoked like a chimney. Lovely guy. He drove a piece of crap car for years.

He was definitely frugal but my dad was just as frugal even though now my parents (its my mum who likes to travel and still works although they are loaded) spend a lot. My dad is a doctor and when he went to restaurants or out with other doctors they would all expect to be called doctor whereas he never expected that. A lot of his doctor friends also drove fancy cars whereas he always drove a piece of crap.

[hybrid]

My grandfather was born in 1910, my grandmother in 1912. The Great Depression shaped their early adult lives, and WW2 shaped their 30s. They came from a simpler time when there weren't nearly as many entertainment options (that dip into your wallet) available. They saw both poverty and rationing firsthand even though they were never in poverty themselves, grandfather being an electrician and grandmother being a nurse. They were always very frugal people personally and yet very generous.

They never had debt, paid their house off early, and used charge cards (as opposed to credit cards) on the occasions they paid with plastic, which they paid off in full (because you had to) when the bill came. They very rarely went out to eat and grandmother canned a lot of food. They never had cable television. Sound familiar?

If my grandfather could talk to me today I would imagine he would say two things. Nice job with the finances and what took you so long getting there. I think they made a big impression on me, although it took a while for all of it to sink in.

[Cassie]

Jomar, I don't know any people of that generation that lived the way you describe. I really do not think it is the norm for that generation.

[reginna]

My grandparents and parents taught me the importance of education. I was the first girl on either side of the family to graduate from college or graduate school. My mom's mom only finished 8th grade but she ran a tight ship in her home. She raised 6 kids on a lay minister's salary. In other words, they were dirt poor. My dad's mom finished high school, worked as a bookkeeper while raising 4 boys while my grandfather worked a blue collar job in a plant.

They taught me to be faithful, to love God and perform acts of service for the benefit of others. They taught me to save every last scrap of food to make soup and to not be wasteful. I'm still working on that last one.

Most of all, they taught me to cherish my family.

kkbmustang, that is so truly beautiful you brought tears to my eyes.

[kkbmustang]

My grandparents and parents taught me the importance of education. I was the first girl on either side of the family to graduate from college or graduate school. My mom's mom only finished 8th grade but she ran a tight ship in her home. She raised 6 kids on a lay minister's salary. In other words, they were dirt poor. My dad's mom finished high school, worked as a bookkeeper while raising 4 boys while my grandfather worked a blue collar job in a plant.

They taught me to be faithful, to love God and perform acts of service for the benefit of others. They taught me to save every last scrap of food to make soup and to not be wasteful. I'm still working on that last one.

Most of all, they taught me to cherish my family.

kkbmustang, that is so truly beautiful you brought tears to my eyes.

Thank you. :-)

EDITED to add that I teared up while writing it.

[MrsPete]

While I agree to a certain extent with what you're saying, I'm kind of tired of the praise we heap on the "Greatest Generation". My wife's grandmother, for example, drives a brand new Lexus, lives in a 2000+ sq ft condo, owns a second condo in Phoenix and owns a second brand new car in Phoenix for when she's down there (about a month a year as she still works full time in her 70s)! My Nana lives in Vegas and gambles like there's no tomorrow. My grandad lives in a multi-level 1500 sq ft house he and his wife bought brand new just a decade ago (and he's in his 80s now and has severe arthritis), and it's in a suburban location basically only accessible by car (and they drive a Ford Flex, purchased new). If you ask me, these were all terrible ideas (although of course I love my grandparents). My wife and I, on the other hand, just bought our first house, coming in at a paltry 1040 sq ft. It's over 100 years old and is within walking/biking distance of work for both of us. We drive a 16 year old Subaru (and most of the miles that get put on it are reimbursed by my work at $0.54/km). We own an investment property (we're 27). These are things my grandparents wouldn't have considered. All of them bought new houses in the burbs, drove brand new cars, replaced every 5 years or so, and worked until late in life. I think I'll stick with my generation's example instead, thanks!

The obvious problem with this example:  Your wife's grandmother is enjoying the benefits of having worked a lifetime -- she's no longer saving for a house, saving for her children's education, saving for her retirement.  On the other hand, you and your wife are just starting out, and the sacrifices you're making are for your future.  Whether you will, when you reach her age, choose to drive the Lexus and live in the nice condo isn't the point.  The point is that your sacrifices today will give you the option to live the lifestyle you choose in the future.  She's already done what you're doing today. 

[dude]

Unsustainable retirement benefits, public and private, partly reliant on unsustainable levels of population growth, must have been nice; they make me less impressed by that generations frugality. Do you have some reason to think they were better about not spending every penny of the money that was within individual control? Overall, I see it as (an unintentional, individually) pillaging of the future.

I think you are confusing the Baby Boomer generation with the Greatest Generation.  I have mad respect for the Greatest Generation.  My grandmother, rest her soul (she passed away at 95 just a few year ago) would tell me stories about how hard it was for her during the Great Depression and WWII, when my grandfather was off fighting the Japs in the South Pacific and she was at home with two young kids.  But I have to admit that for all their sacrifice, they also just happened to fortuitously live in the Golden Age insofar as cheap and abundant natural resources, open space for development, and economic opportunity go.  I mean, damn, the world will never again see another time as prosperous as the US was post-WWII.  Their good fortune was only partially the result of hard work and sacrifice; a significant part of their success was simply a matter and place and time.

[hybrid]

I too have mad respect for the Greatest Generation. It may be true that they did not choose their circumstances, but they were forced to adjust to them. When I hear all the simpering about how much the gubmint steals in taxes I look back to the 40s and 50s when the government not only had to borrow like mad to fund WW2, they jacked taxes way up in the late 40s and 50s to actually pay much of that enormous wartime debt down. If only we had the same fortitude and backbone to pay our own debts down as well. Our nation has more or less signed off on 13 years of war and neglected to pay the bill for it, what a disservice to all of those who actually fought. The Greatest Generation understood the true meaning of sacrifice, I don't think the Boomers on up appreciate that as they did not experience the degree of sacrifice and loss (close to 1,000,000 dead and wounded) it took to fight the Second World War.

[going2ER]

I think that maybe the easy access to credit that we have is very different from the credit available to my grandparents. Making the outcomes much different.

When my grandparents were younger (they are now all deceased) if they wanted something they had to save their money for it, they may work harder at selling extra produce from the farm, but they did not have charge accounts or credit cards. If the money wasn't there they did not buy it. I think that we can learn alot from their behaviour. One of my grandfathers worked on the farm and saved for university, of course this was supported by his parents, and while at university worked his way through, no student loans, but a very well educated man.

[Undecided]

Unsustainable retirement benefits, public and private, partly reliant on unsustainable levels of population growth, must have been nice; they make me less impressed by that generations frugality. Do you have some reason to think they were better about not spending every penny of the money that was within individual control? Overall, I see it as (an unintentional, individually) pillaging of the future.

I think you are confusing the Baby Boomer generation with the Greatest Generation.  I have mad respect for the Greatest Generation.  My grandmother, rest her soul (she passed away at 95 just a few year ago) would tell me stories about how hard it was for her during the Great Depression and WWII, when my grandfather was off fighting the Japs in the South Pacific and she was at home with two young kids.  But I have to admit that for all their sacrifice, they also just happened to fortuitously live in the Golden Age insofar as cheap and abundant natural resources, open space for development, and economic opportunity go.  I mean, damn, the world will never again see another time as prosperous as the US was post-WWII.  Their good fortune was only partially the result of hard work and sacrifice; a significant part of their success was simply a matter and place and time.

No, I'm not at all confused about the generations. If anything, the baby boomers are suffering and will suffer the consequences of thinking that the same extra-personal retirement and government benefit security that their parents faced is available to them. The "boom" in the baby boom is exactly the unsustainable population growth (to the benefit of that generation's parents) that I mean.

[hybrid]

Do recall that in previous generations older people conveniently died a lot younger and therefore pensions and government benefit programs weren't stressed to the same degree that they are today.

The challenge today stems in part from the fact that many people will live for decades after they retire and for years beyond when they are capable of working, and how that is financed is a continuing problem we haven't fully grappled with.

Different eras, different problems.

[Undecided]

Do recall that in previous generations older people conveniently died a lot younger and therefore pensions and government benefit programs weren't stressed to the same degree that they are today.

The challenge today stems in part from the fact that many people will live for decades after they retire and for years beyond when they are capable of working, and how that is financed is a continuing problem we haven't fully grappled with.

Different eras, different problems.

But that just means that fewer people would experience a long retirement; it doesn't challenge my presumption that the members of that generation who were going to make it to a long retirement had less responsibility for personally funding it. Also, the change in life expectancy at birth vastly overstates the change in expected duration of (traditional) retirement for those making it that far: http://www.ssa.gov/history/lifeexpect.html
Unfortunately I haven't seen more recent data.

The idea that the greatest generation had less and that there's no particular reason why younger generations need to have more to be happy, that makes perfect sense to me (it's like pointing out that populations of countries with lower (but not the lowest) per capita incomes may be just as happy). But using all of a more limited amount of resources doesn't seem to me to automatically equate to frugality. For the record, I am a Gen X'er who was raised largely by the Greatest Generation parents of my Baby Boom mother---a classic tale of those three generations! And I do agree with your "different eras, different problems" comment. My own grandparents and their siblings were all working class, a mix of first and second generation immigrants, mostly the men fought in WWII, and none of them had college educations, but they were all pretty comfortable (yes, in smaller houses), and had much less pressure (by that point, with my earliest memories extending to their late 50s and early 60s) to "save for retirement" because they were going to continue to get paid in retirement much as they had when they were working.

[TrulyStashin]

While I agree to a certain extent with what you're saying, I'm kind of tired of the praise we heap on the "Greatest Generation". My wife's grandmother, for example, drives a brand new Lexus, lives in a 2000+ sq ft condo, owns a second condo in Phoenix and owns a second brand new car in Phoenix for when she's down there (about a month a year as she still works full time in her 70s)! My Nana lives in Vegas and gambles like there's no tomorrow. My grandad lives in a multi-level 1500 sq ft house he and his wife bought brand new just a decade ago (and he's in his 80s now and has severe arthritis), and it's in a suburban location basically only accessible by car (and they drive a Ford Flex, purchased new). If you ask me, these were all terrible ideas (although of course I love my grandparents). My wife and I, on the other hand, just bought our first house, coming in at a paltry 1040 sq ft. It's over 100 years old and is within walking/biking distance of work for both of us. We drive a 16 year old Subaru (and most of the miles that get put on it are reimbursed by my work at $0.54/km). We own an investment property (we're 27). These are things my grandparents wouldn't have considered. All of them bought new houses in the burbs, drove brand new cars, replaced every 5 years or so, and worked until late in life. I think I'll stick with my generation's example instead, thanks!

I'm betting these people are in the "Baby Boomer" generation, not the "Greatest Generation."   Most of the GG's are gone now.  Anyone born between 1945 and '65 is a Baby Boomer and they are not their parents.

[avonlea]

While I agree to a certain extent with what you're saying, I'm kind of tired of the praise we heap on the "Greatest Generation". My wife's grandmother, for example, drives a brand new Lexus, lives in a 2000+ sq ft condo, owns a second condo in Phoenix and owns a second brand new car in Phoenix for when she's down there (about a month a year as she still works full time in her 70s)! My Nana lives in Vegas and gambles like there's no tomorrow. My grandad lives in a multi-level 1500 sq ft house he and his wife bought brand new just a decade ago (and he's in his 80s now and has severe arthritis), and it's in a suburban location basically only accessible by car (and they drive a Ford Flex, purchased new). If you ask me, these were all terrible ideas (although of course I love my grandparents). My wife and I, on the other hand, just bought our first house, coming in at a paltry 1040 sq ft. It's over 100 years old and is within walking/biking distance of work for both of us. We drive a 16 year old Subaru (and most of the miles that get put on it are reimbursed by my work at $0.54/km). We own an investment property (we're 27). These are things my grandparents wouldn't have considered. All of them bought new houses in the burbs, drove brand new cars, replaced every 5 years or so, and worked until late in life. I think I'll stick with my generation's example instead, thanks!

I'm betting these people are in the "Baby Boomer" generation, not the "Greatest Generation."   Most of the GG's are gone now.  Anyone born between 1945 and '65 is a Baby Boomer and they are not their parents.

Or the Silent Generation.

[rocksinmyhead]

I too have mad respect for the Greatest Generation. It may be true that they did not choose their circumstances, but they were forced to adjust to them. When I hear all the simpering about how much the gubmint steals in taxes I look back to the 40s and 50s when the government not only had to borrow like mad to fund WW2, they jacked taxes way up in the late 40s and 50s to actually pay much of that enormous wartime debt down. If only we had the same fortitude and backbone to pay our own debts down as well. Our nation has more or less signed off on 13 years of war and neglected to pay the bill for it, what a disservice to all of those who actually fought. The Greatest Generation understood the true meaning of sacrifice, I don't think the Boomers on up appreciate that as they did not experience the degree of sacrifice and loss (close to 1,000,000 dead and wounded) it took to fight the Second World War.

+1000000

it makes me sick how the personal sacrifices for these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been pushed on to such a small segment of society (the military and their families), and completely ignored by most of us, plus how the financial sacrifices are just getting pushed off into the future. total opposite of WWII.

re. the house thing, I posted about this before on a thread about House Hunters, but stupid shows like that definitely make me think. here are these young couples bitching because the "master bathroom" doesn't have a "double vanity"... my mom's dad bought their house when he was a young adult and lived there with his sister and mom, until he married my grandma and his sister moved out (great-grandma lived with them until she died). then they raised four kids there (in a 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom house... they added an extra bedroom in the basement for my two uncles) and my aunt still lives there today. and they were totally middle-class! my grandpa was an accountant and my grandma worked for the railroad. the house is small and it has a small yard, like all the other ones on the street, but it's a nice family neighborhood in St. Paul, close to school and church and parks. yet the idea of 6 people sharing one bathroom, or of two kids sharing a bedroom until they move out, is totally unheard of to people today. just weird to think about. I am so glad my boyfriend is on the same page with me in terms of wanting a small house in the city for our family.

other cool things that don't happen today due to a combination of external factors AND people wasting money on fancy technology and stupid shit... on my dad's side, his dad was an electrician and I don't know if his mom even worked (if she was, it wasn't anything that was bringing in a ton of money). but they put 5 kids through Catholic school, and for their wedding my grandma's parents gave them a very small piece of lakefront property in Wisconsin, on which my grandpa built a badass 1 bedroom + loft cabin that is still in our family today. when I was a kid we went up every year for Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Labor Day, with my dad's 4 siblings and their families plus grandma and grandpa... holy shit, these are some of my absolute favorite childhood memories and not once did I ever think "man, this is way too many people for such a small building." parents slept on beds in the loft, kids slept on mattresses on the floor and grandma and grandpa got the bedroom. there's a big deck wrapping around two sides so we spent most of our time outside anyway. just so fucking awesome.

in summary:
- family is important
- large houses are not important
- if you need space away from your family, go the fuck outside (and this from a Minnesotan coming from a long line of Minnesotans...)

[Cassie]

I am a baby boomer and when I raised my kids our house had 1 bathroom. Not really a big deal. As a former Wisconsinite I second go outside!!

[wesley]

Great idea for a thread, and some great stories.

My grandfather was a farmer, and as I started investing in shares, property and developments I would walk him through the pro's and con's. He understood how options worked (because he kept an eye on milk futures, wheat and calves etc.), and he was fine with me buying my first property to rent out, but he could never work out why I was borrowing such big sums and why I never used my own money - highly leveraged property, margin loans on shares etc.

he would end up wishing me well but shaking his head, over the years I have shared my success and failure stories with him, I have finally come around to his way of thinking and now dont use margin for shares and use a ton of equity in any property deals.

[hybrid]

Do recall that in previous generations older people conveniently died a lot younger and therefore pensions and government benefit programs weren't stressed to the same degree that they are today.

The challenge today stems in part from the fact that many people will live for decades after they retire and for years beyond when they are capable of working, and how that is financed is a continuing problem we haven't fully grappled with.

Different eras, different problems.

But that just means that fewer people would experience a long retirement; it doesn't challenge my presumption that the members of that generation who were going to make it to a long retirement had less responsibility for personally funding it. Also, the change in life expectancy at birth vastly overstates the change in expected duration of (traditional) retirement for those making it that far: http://www.ssa.gov/history/lifeexpect.html
Unfortunately I haven't seen more recent data.

The idea that the greatest generation had less and that there's no particular reason why younger generations need to have more to be happy, that makes perfect sense to me (it's like pointing out that populations of countries with lower (but not the lowest) per capita incomes may be just as happy). But using all of a more limited amount of resources doesn't seem to me to automatically equate to frugality. For the record, I am a Gen X'er who was raised largely by the Greatest Generation parents of my Baby Boom mother---a classic tale of those three generations! And I do agree with your "different eras, different problems" comment. My own grandparents and their siblings were all working class, a mix of first and second generation immigrants, mostly the men fought in WWII, and none of them had college educations, but they were all pretty comfortable (yes, in smaller houses), and had much less pressure (by that point, with my earliest memories extending to their late 50s and early 60s) to "save for retirement" because they were going to continue to get paid in retirement much as they had when they were working.

I appreciate the link that backs up my argument.  The number of people who made it to age 65 from age 21 shot up 20% in five decades from 1940 to 1990. Since a worker actually had to survive to age 65 in the first place to collect full benefits, it's worth noting that in 1940 barely half of all men who survived to age 21 managed that. By 1990 nearly 3/4 of them did and of course that was a long 24 years ago. The number is surely even higher today.

Seems like you're making my point for me. Previous generations did conveniently die a lot younger.

[Undecided]

Do recall that in previous generations older people conveniently died a lot younger and therefore pensions and government benefit programs weren't stressed to the same degree that they are today.

The challenge today stems in part from the fact that many people will live for decades after they retire and for years beyond when they are capable of working, and how that is financed is a continuing problem we haven't fully grappled with.

Different eras, different problems.

But that just means that fewer people would experience a long retirement; it doesn't challenge my presumption that the members of that generation who were going to make it to a long retirement had less responsibility for personally funding it. Also, the change in life expectancy at birth vastly overstates the change in expected duration of (traditional) retirement for those making it that far: http://www.ssa.gov/history/lifeexpect.html
Unfortunately I haven't seen more recent data.

The idea that the greatest generation had less and that there's no particular reason why younger generations need to have more to be happy, that makes perfect sense to me (it's like pointing out that populations of countries with lower (but not the lowest) per capita incomes may be just as happy). But using all of a more limited amount of resources doesn't seem to me to automatically equate to frugality. For the record, I am a Gen X'er who was raised largely by the Greatest Generation parents of my Baby Boom mother---a classic tale of those three generations! And I do agree with your "different eras, different problems" comment. My own grandparents and their siblings were all working class, a mix of first and second generation immigrants, mostly the men fought in WWII, and none of them had college educations, but they were all pretty comfortable (yes, in smaller houses), and had much less pressure (by that point, with my earliest memories extending to their late 50s and early 60s) to "save for retirement" because they were going to continue to get paid in retirement much as they had when they were working.

I appreciate the link that backs up my argument.  The number of people who made it to age 65 from age 21 shot up 20% in five decades from 1940 to 1990. Since a worker actually had to survive to age 65 in the first place to collect full benefits, it's worth noting that in 1940 barely half of all men who survived to age 21 managed that. By 1990 nearly 3/4 of them did and of course that was a long 24 years ago. The number is surely even higher today.

Seems like you're making my point for me. Previous generations did conveniently die a lot younger.

My point is that people were less likely to have to take personal responsibility for their retirements. Individuals had less reason, whether because they expected to die or because they knew that they'd be cared for if they didn't, to trade present consumption for future consumption. Your point about the lower level of stress on public/private retirement systems is just a red herring.

[foobar]

We need to make smoking cool again and ban antibiotics.  Easy solution to the medicare and SS issues.

Seems like you're making my point for me. Previous generations did conveniently die a lot younger.

[AJ]

We need to make smoking cool again and ban antibiotics.  Easy solution to the medicare and SS issues.

Won't our generation already die young from obesity-related causes? Bad habits FTW!