The Great Resignation

[LaineyAZ]

I'd be very interested to hear from the employers side.  Are they all so tone-deaf that they aren't re-doing work arrangements post-Covid?

Are any of them offering some incentives like e.g. hybrid weeks with work from home 3 days and work from home 2 days?  or child-care credits?  or doing away with open floor plans and reinstalling dividers and cubicles?  or making sure windows can open for air circulation? 

I guess I'm puzzled with the numbers of people who say they are leaving to work for other employers, but if those employers haven't made any changes either and everything is still the same, is it just wishful thinking on the part of the exiting employees that the grass is greener somewhere else?

[JLee]

I'd be very interested to hear from the employers side.  Are they all so tone-deaf that they aren't re-doing work arrangements post-Covid?

Are any of them offering some incentives like e.g. hybrid weeks with work from home 3 days and work from home 2 days?  or child-care credits?  or doing away with open floor plans and reinstalling dividers and cubicles?  or making sure windows can open for air circulation? 

I guess I'm puzzled with the numbers of people who say they are leaving to work for other employers, but if those employers haven't made any changes either and everything is still the same, is it just wishful thinking on the part of the exiting employees that the grass is greener somewhere else?

Varies by company. My SO’s employer is likely to keep their team remote going forward, whereas my company hasn’t even asked us what we think - they’re just saying prepare to return full time, with no request or regard for employee feedback / input.

[Car Jack]

I wonder what percentage of teachers have left the field this year? It seems like a lot, from the people I’ve talked to.

Enough that, around here, public schools have greatly changed their pay structure for new-to-the-district teachers. Pay is generally based on 'steps' or number of years in the district. Historically when you changed districts you would be started at a much lower step than where you were currently. For example someone with 20 years of experience at one district might start at 5 years of experience on the new schools pay scale. Under 10 years experience was frequently treated the same or nearly the same as a fresh out of school grad if you moved to a new district. Now more and more schools are offering matching existing steps to entice teachers. This is a huge change to an entrenched and wide-spread behavior

Holy Cow!

While our town isn't all that huge, any pay structure proposal by our town to the teacher's union would meet a response of: "With all due respect to your proposal......Blow Me".

[jrhampt]

Personally, I have no plans to resign, but I hope to do some really cool stuff with my newfound flexibility. Is "workcation" a word yet? I'm sure it is. I would love to spend a week working in a new city (at an AirBnB with good internet obviously). The workday would be the same, but at night I could explore the city.

I've always called them "working vacations", but I've been doing them for quite a while since I've worked 100% remotely for almost 10 years now.  I'm actually on one right now, and it's the second one for me this month (pandemic backlog).  I'll do at a few more later this summer/fall.  What I usually do is go hang out with another friend or family member out of state who also works remotely, and we go for runs/beach yoga before we start working, then have brunch later in the day, and do fun stuff after we quit working for the afternoon.  They come visit me too sometimes and we do the same thing where I live.  Works out great.  I've never traveled to another city by myself to do this, but it's an idea to consider.

[bigdoug03]

My own informal survey, taken during happy hour after work, indicates that 100% of workers are "thinking about quitting".

[coppertop]

I've absolutely heard stories of people feeling terrible going back to work. They could do all of their work from home, no commute. But now suddenly they are expected to go back to the office, commute, maybe suddenly pay for childcare when they could get away with not doing so, and they have to be at the office more hours for the same amount of work than they spent doing it at home, because they are forced to either be there for 40+ hours and/or in-person meetings and such wasting their time.

When I worked still I didn't have 40 hours' worth of work. I tried repeatedly to address this with management, but whenever I did they made up busy work for me. It was not legitimate work that needed to be done for the office, but now suddenly I was expected to do it just because I complained. It made me stop talking to management about it and I would just pretend to be busy whenever I got my actual legitimate work done for the day or week. It was INCREDIBLY frustrating and soul draining. That contributed a lot to me wanting to FIRE. Why should I waste 40 hours a week plus 5-6 hours a week combined commuting time of my life for something that takes me only a smaller percentage of those hours to do? I feel like working at home has exposed more people to the realities of similar situations and it is also frustrating them.

When I was still working (I am retired), management believed that anyone who was not an attorney (it was a law firm) had to be in the office physically because they would just goof off otherwise.  If they couldn't see you physically at your desk, you must be shirking.  I saw that attitude as being highly disrespectful of the firm's staff, because the assumption was that if a person didn't have a law degree, they were automatically deemed to be shiftless and lazy.  I did hear that everyone, including staff, worked from home after March of 2020 and wonder how that worked out for them and if management's attitudes have changed at all. 

[Rusted Rose]

I've absolutely heard stories of people feeling terrible going back to work. They could do all of their work from home, no commute. But now suddenly they are expected to go back to the office, commute, maybe suddenly pay for childcare when they could get away with not doing so, and they have to be at the office more hours for the same amount of work than they spent doing it at home, because they are forced to either be there for 40+ hours and/or in-person meetings and such wasting their time.

When I worked still I didn't have 40 hours' worth of work. I tried repeatedly to address this with management, but whenever I did they made up busy work for me. It was not legitimate work that needed to be done for the office, but now suddenly I was expected to do it just because I complained. It made me stop talking to management about it and I would just pretend to be busy whenever I got my actual legitimate work done for the day or week. It was INCREDIBLY frustrating and soul draining. That contributed a lot to me wanting to FIRE. Why should I waste 40 hours a week plus 5-6 hours a week combined commuting time of my life for something that takes me only a smaller percentage of those hours to do? I feel like working at home has exposed more people to the realities of similar situations and it is also frustrating them.

When I was still working (I am retired), management believed that anyone who was not an attorney (it was a law firm) had to be in the office physically because they would just goof off otherwise.  If they couldn't see you physically at your desk, you must be shirking.  I saw that attitude as being highly disrespectful of the firm's staff, because the assumption was that if a person didn't have a law degree, they were automatically deemed to be shiftless and lazy.  I did hear that everyone, including staff, worked from home after March of 2020 and wonder how that worked out for them and if management's attitudes have changed at all.

It's really hit me recently how relentlessly abusive, degrading, and demoralizing the American workplace appears to be generally. I could be wrong, but I feel like this type of BS really picked up speed in the Reagan era and has been supported by that flavor of politics--which is abusive toward most people by nature. I wonder how the American work world could ever change, and how much better off people would be if it did.

Of course, the endeavor of keeping workers under the thumb is deliberately also supported by tying health insurance to work in a uniquely American "fuck you."

(Just to be clear, I am an American)

[Plina]

I've absolutely heard stories of people feeling terrible going back to work. They could do all of their work from home, no commute. But now suddenly they are expected to go back to the office, commute, maybe suddenly pay for childcare when they could get away with not doing so, and they have to be at the office more hours for the same amount of work than they spent doing it at home, because they are forced to either be there for 40+ hours and/or in-person meetings and such wasting their time.

When I worked still I didn't have 40 hours' worth of work. I tried repeatedly to address this with management, but whenever I did they made up busy work for me. It was not legitimate work that needed to be done for the office, but now suddenly I was expected to do it just because I complained. It made me stop talking to management about it and I would just pretend to be busy whenever I got my actual legitimate work done for the day or week. It was INCREDIBLY frustrating and soul draining. That contributed a lot to me wanting to FIRE. Why should I waste 40 hours a week plus 5-6 hours a week combined commuting time of my life for something that takes me only a smaller percentage of those hours to do? I feel like working at home has exposed more people to the realities of similar situations and it is also frustrating them.

When I was still working (I am retired), management believed that anyone who was not an attorney (it was a law firm) had to be in the office physically because they would just goof off otherwise.  If they couldn't see you physically at your desk, you must be shirking.  I saw that attitude as being highly disrespectful of the firm's staff, because the assumption was that if a person didn't have a law degree, they were automatically deemed to be shiftless and lazy.  I did hear that everyone, including staff, worked from home after March of 2020 and wonder how that worked out for them and if management's attitudes have changed at all.

I also find it disrespectful to talk about support staff as costs as they rarely bill their hours. They make your life so much easier and enable you to bill more.

Interestingly enough one of my former colleagues told me that the government authority (non-US) that she works at will make deals with their employees and enable them to work from home 49 % of the time. That would not have been possible before the pandemic. If it is 50% or more your home would be considered your workplace and the employer would have to pay for you coming in to the office.

[Dances With Fire]

Last month I met with our HR department. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/returned-to-say-thank-you-to-everyone-here/

She told me that the company was looking for 400-450 new hires. And asked "if I knew (anyone) who would be interested."

Being short staffed for months now means mandatory overtime on Saturdays (and often, even Sundays.) As others have noted, if the w*rk is getting "done" Corp. doesn't seem to care.

Older workers are now leaving after decades of service. Younger co-workers are leaving for more flexibility and far less overtime.

[gooki]

That's pretty funny.

We don't have enough staff so let's work everyone harder so more staff leave so we have even fewer staff, so we better work who we have left even harder so more staff leave ...

[Just Joe]

During the pandemic I heard about all these people who were choosing to move to middle America to reduce costs and possibly exposure to sickness in the crowded cities. Are these people facing being forced back into an office in their old city locations? Or - were these always work from home people?

[slappy]

During the pandemic I heard about all these people who were choosing to move to middle America to reduce costs and possibly exposure to sickness in the crowded cities. Are these people facing being forced back into an office in their old city locations? Or - were these always work from home people?

Probably a bit of both, but it was a risk they had to be aware of when they made that choice.

[zolotiyeruki]

During the pandemic I heard about all these people who were choosing to move to middle America to reduce costs and possibly exposure to sickness in the crowded cities. Are these people facing being forced back into an office in their old city locations? Or - were these always work from home people?

Anecdote here:  a nephew of mine works for Google, and moved to the upper midwest when WFH became policy.  They really like it where they are now.  If Google requires him to go back to the office (and therefore move back to CA), he says he'll find a new job.

[2sk22]

During the pandemic I heard about all these people who were choosing to move to middle America to reduce costs and possibly exposure to sickness in the crowded cities. Are these people facing being forced back into an office in their old city locations? Or - were these always work from home people?

In terms of exposure to sickness, it may actually be worse in some of the under-vaccinated rural areas than in the big cities.

[GodlessCommie]

In terms of exposure to sickness, it may actually be worse in some of the under-vaccinated rural areas than in the big cities.

It is now, it wasn't when they moved. This whole pandemic proved a lot of prognostication by very smart people worthless.

Anecdote here:  a nephew of mine works for Google, and moved to the upper midwest when WFH became policy.  They really like it where they are now.  If Google requires him to go back to the office (and therefore move back to CA), he says he'll find a new job.

Having Google on your resume is better than $1M of FU money.

[JLee]

We had someone resign today - I can't remember the last time someone in our infrastructure/systems engineering teams left, other than one that got fired about 3 years ago.

[Sibley]

I'm seeing and hearing (in the office) lots of people talking about all the short staffing. I also repeatedly hear about all the people sitting at home collecting unemployment. It's really fun to chime in with "I was curious and checked the unemployment rate for the state. It's actually really low, about what it was before all the covid stuff hit. And anyone getting unemployment is counted in those stats I think. So while people might not be working, they aren't getting paid to sit at home."

They don't like that. It messes with their world view.

[sailinlight]

We're losing a lot of people at my workplace (non-sexy tech company in Denver) and are finding it really hard to replace anyone. My colleagues who have left have gone to cool trendy startups based in Silicon Valley but are now remote. As a result we just had a mid-year market salary adjustment of around 5%. I'm not sure that will help a ton, but I think this is a good start to start to balance salaries across geographical regions.

[Channel-Z]

Short-staffing is definitely a problem in my line of work. Companies would rather pay overtime than hire additional people. We have the legacy world, and we have the digital world, and we're expected to be both simultaneously, but with fewer employees.

[exige]

we had our first few resignations this week (tech company) because they are wanting people back in the office a few days and back full time (ish) come labor day. They claim it was just a better opportunity but from what im told it was the WFH

[JLee]

we had our first few resignations this week (tech company) because they are wanting people back in the office a few days and back full time (ish) come labor day. They claim it was just a better opportunity but from what im told it was the WFH

Quite possibly both - much of the interesting stuff I'm seeing pays better than where I am now and is also more flexible re: WFH.

[zolotiyeruki]

we had our first few resignations this week (tech company) because they are wanting people back in the office a few days and back full time (ish) come labor day. They claim it was just a better opportunity but from what im told it was the WFH

Maybe it was a better opportunity because it's WFH?

[gooki]

During the pandemic I heard about all these people who were choosing to move to middle America to reduce costs and possibly exposure to sickness in the crowded cities. Are these people facing being forced back into an office in their old city locations? Or - were these always work from home people?

We had enough staff move out of NY, that they had to send a memo round to make sure you let human resources know so they can update tax details.

[Rural]

We just had a tenure-track faculty member resign over the weekend (well on track for tenure; I should know as I chaired the pretenure committee). We're being forced back face to face and in the office in the fall.

[MayDay]

We just had a tenure-track faculty member resign over the weekend (well on track for tenure; I should know as I chaired the pretenure committee). We're being forced back face to face and in the office in the fall.

Did they cite that as the reason?

I am likely about to quit and the root cause is losing my mind because my kids didn't go to school for an entire year.

[Rural]

We just had a tenure-track faculty member resign over the weekend (well on track for tenure; I should know as I chaired the pretenure committee). We're being forced back face to face and in the office in the fall.

Did they cite that as the reason?

I am likely about to quit and the root cause is losing my mind because my kids didn't go to school for an entire year.

No kids in this case. The reasons were partly losing the WFH and partly a better-paying offer outside academia. But the person started looking because of being forced back.

[TomTX]

In terms of exposure to sickness, it may actually be worse in some of the under-vaccinated rural areas than in the big cities.

It is now, it wasn't when they moved. This whole pandemic proved a lot of prognostication by very smart people worthless.

Really? Once the anti-COVID-vaxx culture war was started by the GQP, I considered it inevitable things would play out this way -  as did many experts.

[scottish]

In terms of exposure to sickness, it may actually be worse in some of the under-vaccinated rural areas than in the big cities.

It is now, it wasn't when they moved. This whole pandemic proved a lot of prognostication by very smart people worthless.

Really? Once the anti-COVID-vaxx culture war was started by the GQP, I considered it inevitable things would play out this way -  as did many experts.

GQP = Grand Qanon Party?

[chasesfish]

Last month I met with our HR department. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/returned-to-say-thank-you-to-everyone-here/

She told me that the company was looking for 400-450 new hires. And asked "if I knew (anyone) who would be interested."

Being short staffed for months now means mandatory overtime on Saturdays (and often, even Sundays.) As others have noted, if the w*rk is getting "done" Corp. doesn't seem to care.

Older workers are now leaving after decades of service. Younger co-workers are leaving for more flexibility and far less overtime.

Mandatory overtime because of lack of employees....

Could possibly lead to an additional lack of employees, no?

[TomTX]

GQP = Grand Qanon Party?

Got it in one. The GOP fundamentally transformed itself via the Qanon nonsense and bears no resemblance to the party of Reagan.

[WanderLucky]

More anecdata: I've been at a contract job for past 1.5 years that started in person, and went to remote because of covid. I moved away from the area and definitely am not returning when they supposedly force people into a hybrid model this September.

Being a contractor with FU money, I've been very clear that at that point, it would be a great time to end my contract because I'm not coming back. They are sort of ignoring it, maybe thinking I'll change my mind or maybe they plan to not force the issue? Not sure but I know of 2 other people on our small 8-person team who moved away and have no plans to come back. One of them is a total rock star (in the software development sense) and will be a huge hit to the org to lose him, so I hope that they will reconsider.

[nick663]

More anecdata: I've been at a contract job for past 1.5 years that started in person, and went to remote because of covid. I moved away from the area and definitely am not returning when they supposedly force people into a hybrid model this September.

Being a contractor with FU money, I've been very clear that at that point, it would be a great time to end my contract because I'm not coming back. They are sort of ignoring it, maybe thinking I'll change my mind or maybe they plan to not force the issue? Not sure but I know of 2 other people on our small 8-person team who moved away and have no plans to come back. One of them is a total rock star (in the software development sense) and will be a huge hit to the org to lose him, so I hope that they will reconsider.

It'll be very interesting to see how many employers back down on the "in office" requirements as they realize the repercussions of it.  Especially with the labor shortage and pushback coming from a not insignificant portion of the workforce.

When I quit a previous job I mentioned that one of our factors was that we wanted to relocate to a new city.  My former employer had only desktop computers and WFH wasn't even offered for emergency cases.  Part of their "please stay" offer was the ability to WFH in my new location.  I turned it down, but it always made me wonder how much leverage employees have over the employers when push comes to shove.

[WanderLucky]

More anecdata: I've been at a contract job for past 1.5 years that started in person, and went to remote because of covid. I moved away from the area and definitely am not returning when they supposedly force people into a hybrid model this September.

Being a contractor with FU money, I've been very clear that at that point, it would be a great time to end my contract because I'm not coming back. They are sort of ignoring it, maybe thinking I'll change my mind or maybe they plan to not force the issue? Not sure but I know of 2 other people on our small 8-person team who moved away and have no plans to come back. One of them is a total rock star (in the software development sense) and will be a huge hit to the org to lose him, so I hope that they will reconsider.

It'll be very interesting to see how many employers back down on the "in office" requirements as they realize the repercussions of it.  Especially with the labor shortage and pushback coming from a not insignificant portion of the workforce.

When I quit a previous job I mentioned that one of our factors was that we wanted to relocate to a new city.  My former employer had only desktop computers and WFH wasn't even offered for emergency cases.  Part of their "please stay" offer was the ability to WFH in my new location.  I turned it down, but it always made me wonder how much leverage employees have over the employers when push comes to shove.

Yeah it is going to be interesting to see if they back down. In this case, it's a large company who has VERY HEAVILY invested in their campus. And they see that campus and its amenities as a main draw for potential employees - I would argue that it's not as big of a draw as they seem to think, but what do I know? Also, we have a lot of data showing that productivity in our org increased with WFH, so it's a bit baffling that they seem to be (currently) taking a hard stand on it.
Anyway, I have a feeling they are going to back down and let employees do what they want and I think they'd be smart to do so. We'll see.

[Chrissy]

My company shut down for over a year.  At least 30% of my team of retrained or pivoted to jobs in other industries.  Could be more than 30% because there's a few people I haven't heard from/about.  Now, we're trying to restaff and I'm not sure who's coming back.  The company is offering us less work and lower pay.

And, I've just received an email that a couple higher-ups are retiring.

UPDATE:  The two retiring higher-ups are out.  We're back in just a few weeks now, and one of my group was just poached by a competitor.  Another says she doesn't want any committee assignments because she's retiring soon.

[Chris Pascale]

Was talking to a restaurant owner who said he couldn't offer $25/hour to retain his line cooks. Part of it was the unemployment benefits, but another part was that they got a moment to re-evaluate their lives and concluded they would rather do other things.

[dougules]

I little bit of data, the quits rate is apparently really high right now

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.t04.htm

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSQUR

[Paper Chaser]

I little bit of data, the quits rate is apparently really high right now

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.t04.htm

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSQUR

'Accommodation and Food Service' and 'Retail Trade' sectors really stand out for the 'Quits' rates. But they also seem like they probably have higher turnover than other sectors too.

[DaMa]

Several of my friends who had to WFH found that they really loved the reduced exposure to office politics and gossip.  For one it was a serious reduction in stress and anxiety that she does not want to go back to.  Just one more factor to add to the benefit of WFH.

I know a lot of people who don't want to go back to the office.  No one is threatening to quit, yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens.

[boarder42]

Several of my friends who had to WFH found that they really loved the reduced exposure to office politics and gossip.  For one it was a serious reduction in stress and anxiety that she does not want to go back to.  Just one more factor to add to the benefit of WFH.

I know a lot of people who don't want to go back to the office.  No one is threatening to quit, yet, but it will be interesting to see what happens.

People are dropping like flies and we have pretty big eoy ties at our company. We're losing the 6-10 year people now who have less invested in the company and get smaller bonuses. Come early Jan I expect lots of resignations and people leaving for our cross town competition that offers full remote and hybrid options. Our managements response to this is let them leave it's fine we can replace them. We're a best place to work. Uhh no we're not since covid hit we don't make any of those lists anymore.

[coppertop]

Was talking to a restaurant owner who said he couldn't offer $25/hour to retain his line cooks. Part of it was the unemployment benefits, but another part was that they got a moment to re-evaluate their lives and concluded they would rather do other things.

An article in this past Sunday's Philadelphia Inquirer was about this subject.  Restaurant employees interviewed stated they are tired of being abused by management and chefs and were returning to school or otherwise searching for employment in other fields. 

[Metalcat]

Since we are throwing out anecdata, I have a friend who has started an aggressive job search after her workplace has announced it will be months before everyone returns to work.  She wants to be back in the office and if she can't do that with her current employer, she's going to find one that where she can.

My larger point being, people have switched jobs and even left the workforce for many reasons, for nearly all of modern history.  I'm not seeing any more or less of that right now among my circle than I always have.  Sure, for some people right now the reasons seem to be pandemic-related, but I'm unconvinced that--other than within a few specific industries perhaps--there is an overall increase in churn.

There's been absolutely massive turnover in my industry and droves of staff leaving the industry altogether, that's not anecdata, there are multiple articles being published in our professional journals about this as a major, existential threat to the industry.

Salaries for these staff have now raised to totally unsustainable levels. Business owners are absolutely panicked as to how to manage it.

ETA: I think it's a good thing, staff in my industry were traditionally horribly underpaid and treated like shit because it's an overwhelmingly female role. If valuing staff appropriately is unsustainable, then the industry just has to change.

Easy for me to say though...since I'm retired ;)

[GodlessCommie]

If it takes a global pandemic to start treating people in retail, hospitality, restaurant, healthcare businesses as, you know, people - so be it. Would be nice if it could be extended to seasonal agricultural workers, meatpacking plant workers, etc. And if it took some taxpayer $$ to enable people to switch careers, that, in my book, is money well spent.

As to WFH, I kind of miss seeing people and collaborating with people face to face. Working together with people you like on a tough but solvable problem is something that gives me satisfaction.

[dougules]

As to WFH, I kind of miss seeing people and collaborating with people face to face. Working together with people you like on a tough but solvable problem is something that gives me satisfaction.

I agree, but I think this depends on the personalities and what they're working on.   Flexibility between WFH and in-person would be the ideal. 

[Michael in ABQ]

I'm in the process of buying a business I can run from home with my wife. We're scheduled to close at the end of the month and we had planned that I would still work for several more months afterwards. Then we revised that to the end of August. Now I'm pretty seriously considering putting in my two week notice tomorrow. I work for the federal government and the team of contractors I'm supposed to provide oversight for have been failing continuously for years. Lots of turnover due to the contractor hiring terrible managers to micromanage untrained people. As my wife and I were talking about it as a drove home I couldn't help but smile and think how I might just walk away from all of it in a couple of weeks. I feel a little bad leaving everyone in a lurch as I have the most experience/institutional knowledge. But then I remember that I've been trying to squeeze blood from a stone for years with no success and I don't feel so bad.

[Zamboni]

Definitely don't feel bad!

[ender]

Welp seems like this is going to include me. lol.

[boarder42]

Welp seems like this is going to include me. lol.

Welcome to the partaaayyaah

[ender]

Welp seems like this is going to include me. lol.

Welcome to the partaaayyaah

It's especially bad in tech right now because companies are struggling to hire senior folks.

[CarolinaGirl]

Yep, and when I put in my notice there will be one more ‘senior’ opening to fill!  Woohoo!!!

[Cool Friend]

We just got an email this morning that our office--which nobody has returned to yet--is moving to a shittier location in two fucking days and if we could pack up all our personal things that would be great. Please note this is a busy work week and there is not going to be time to pack up anything. Meanwhile, I've been stationed at a nearby studio apartment for the past month to do work that I can much more easily do at home. Completely fucking arbitrary and pointless. I am very close to rage quitting and going back to temping or some bullshit.

Wait, they are paying you to work from a studio apartment close to the office that you're not even going to?  That's truly bizarre.

Yeah, it's so my boss can get around the closed office policy. It's a completely pointless waste of money, but he's a petty tyrant, so...

Update on this. They've opened up the office two days a week for everyone else. I still have to go in to this apartment on the three other days. Nobody else has to. I even proposed that I go in the office on the alternate three days and WFH the other days, since he's worried about coverage. Proposal denied.

I would have quit on the spot but I can't interrupt my health insurance. Thinking about just getting a job at the Apple Store or something because I cannot fucking take this shit anymore.