Author Topic: The Golem Trust - helping society break free  (Read 19082 times)

intirb

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The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« on: April 16, 2016, 04:45:25 PM »
Terry Pratchett fans will recognize the title - recently I've become obsessed with the idea of the Golem Trust.  For those of you who aren't familiar with the Discworld novels, the golems are (fictional) clay men, treated as machines and owned like property. One of them becomes free and starts working for wages until it can buy another one's freedom, and then the two of them work until they can buy another one.. and so forth. This group of freedom-buying golems is called The Golem Trust.

For me, financial independence is about freedom - not just financial freedom, but a political freedom of sorts.  It's a freedom that I think should be expanded as far as possible, and I wonder if it would be possible to create a type of Golem Trust where the effects of financial freedom can be amplified to help others reach the same.  I know that the authors of Your Money Or Your Life founded a grassroots movement around these ideas, and I've been trying to think of ways to extend this idea even further. 

There are lots of forms that this could take.  You could create an intentional cooperative living community where resources are pooled to lower the threshold for FIRE.  You could subsidize someone's living situation, enabling them to reach FIRE faster, on the condition that they subsidize the next person.  It could be horizontal support networks or an entire community for people interested in FIRE.  None of these ideas are very well thought out, but I'm curious if this kind of thing appeals to anyone else.  I'm not looking for commitments or anything, but I'd love to brainstorm ideas with other people familiar with financial independence.  If you could design it, what would such a system look like?  How can we set people free?

bobechs

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2016, 05:01:03 PM »
Hmmm, why not Hippie Commune?

It's a brand name with stronger immediate recognition and you won't run into major IP problems with the publisher and author.

EaMone

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2016, 05:58:04 PM »
I don't understand why you would want to work to set others "free" financially when that is something that they can achieve themselves. The Golems in the story (which I have no knowledge of) had a real reason to work -- to set their enslaved people free. Most "real" people can set themselves free, but choose not to.

Zikoris

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2016, 06:22:44 PM »
As a relatively low-earning office clerk who's kicking ass on the FI journey, you'll have to forgive me for being unsympathetic to the plight of people who make double my salary and blow it all on consumer bullshit. If they wish to pursue FI, nobody's stopping them last I checked.

I do see some value in forming groups or communities of like-minded people to support each other in working towards our goals. Here in Vancouver we have a small Mustachian group that shares ideas and works together on projects. We tend to do a fair bit of low cost or free socializing as well, like hiking, board game nights, potlucks, etc.

YogiKitti

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2016, 06:41:10 PM »
I like the idea of having a community that is supportive of the mustachian way, such as a library for tools or bigger bike paths. However, I wouldn't work longer to make someone else ER.

intirb

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2016, 06:51:23 PM »
I don't understand why you would want to work to set others "free" financially when that is something that they can achieve themselves. The Golems in the story (which I have no knowledge of) had a real reason to work -- to set their enslaved people free. Most "real" people can set themselves free, but choose not to.

As a relatively low-earning office clerk who's kicking ass on the FI journey, you'll have to forgive me for being unsympathetic to the plight of people who make double my salary and blow it all on consumer bullshit. If they wish to pursue FI, nobody's stopping them last I checked.

I do see some value in forming groups or communities of like-minded people to support each other in working towards our goals.

To clarify, I'm not talking about helping people who blow all their income on consumer bullshit.  More like the groups of like-minded people that Zikoris is talking about.  Most people can achieve financial independence on their own, but I think it might be possible to accelerate someone's path and have a self-perpetuating system that builds on itself.  One of the key things about the Golem Trust is that it takes half the time to free the third golem, since you have two golems working together.

For example, imagine a group of financially independent people buy a large house with a bunch of rooms.  They "rent" out one of the rooms to someone who is not yet financially independent but wants to get there.  In actuality though, this rent (minus upkeep costs) is going into an index fund for the renter.  This could theoretically boost the renters savings rate from, say, 50% to 75%, saving them ten years of time to financial independence.  In exchange for this extra time, the renter works for an additional number of years (something between zero and ten) and all the extra goes into an index fund for the NEXT person (or it goes to something else?  I don't know!).

I realize this is probably a crazy idea.  I'm interested in brainstorming sort of crazy ideas with anyone else who wants to think about along these lines.  How many people dismiss early retirement as impossible, just because they've never heard of anything like it before?  Surely there are some other dreamers in this forum :)

geekinprogress

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2016, 07:27:45 PM »
I have vague ambitions along similar lines - intentional community building meant to help other women, particularly women in vulnerable positions who struggle to even save for retirement.  I have a handful of friends who are very hard workers who keep their expenses VERY low for survival and are often able to scrape by purely due to ingenuity, but have gotten little/no financial assistance from family, and are dealing with other issues which make it hard to make progress financially (abusive relationships past/current, physical illnesses, PTSD).  When you are attempting to beat an eating disorder, or break away from a relationship you're tied up in financially/materially with someone who physically/emotionally/sexually abuses you, you typically have enough to deal with on a daily basis that you have no left-over energy for long-term goals.  I think when people say that other people are "perfectly capable" of achieving FI on their own if they try hard enough, they are generally thinking about people somewhat like themselves and in similar positions; for those same reasons, my friends find it perfectly amazing and bewildering that anyone could achieve FI, because the pathway really ISN'T that clear for them, and they don't know anyone (aside from me) who even thinks that way.  (Interestingly, I find them to be way more open to the idea of making small lifestyle changes to pursue FI than do many of my more wealthy friends whose idea of frugality is to go an extra year between laptop upgrades - people who make twice as much as me and could EASILY reach FI in the next 10 years if they tried.) 

Ideally I'd like to get a house with an acreage, or small farm, and be able to rent rooms extremely cheaply or in trade for work on maintaining gardens, orchards, chicken houses, etc.  Building a small community of women to work together would help me in my own goal of establishing a small organic homestead or farm, and I can help them learn the basics about finances and planning that noone even began to teach them, that were unimaginable concerns in their families due to poverty and other issues.  We'd also all have a better support network, which is particularly important to me, given that I'm a single child with very little living family and no desire to marry, and a handful of health issues that might turn into disabilities if I'm not lucky. 

Yes, I'm a damn hippie, but I love my people, and it breaks my heart that other people have done such terrible things to so many people I know.  For that matter - people have done terrible things to me, but one of the best ways I've found to make peace with that and move forward is to help other women who've been in similar positions.  I can't imagine a better use of my time or energy, or a better reason for me to RE.  I like my current corporate gig enough to stay there another 3-10 years, mostly because the work is meaningful and has an impact on healthcare, but I look forward to transitioning to doing something more personally meaningful to me after reaching FI. 

sheepstache

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2016, 07:41:13 PM »
For those of you who aren't familiar with the Discworld novels, the golems are (fictional) clay men, treated as machines and owned like property.

Sorry, quick culture check: the golem are actually from Jewish folklore.  (The Golem Trust is Pratchett's spin on it.)

Zikoris

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2016, 08:59:22 PM »
For example, imagine a group of financially independent people buy a large house with a bunch of rooms.  They "rent" out one of the rooms to someone who is not yet financially independent but wants to get there.  In actuality though, this rent (minus upkeep costs) is going into an index fund for the renter.  This could theoretically boost the renters savings rate from, say, 50% to 75%, saving them ten years of time to financial independence.  In exchange for this extra time, the renter works for an additional number of years (something between zero and ten) and all the extra goes into an index fund for the NEXT person (or it goes to something else?  I don't know!).


Well... if you saved 10 years of "time to FI", but then had to work an additional 10 years to shorten another person's "time to FI", have you actually benefited in any way? Wouldn't you be better off skipping the "middleman" so to speak?

intirb

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2016, 10:07:30 PM »
@geekinprogress - that sounds amazing!  One of the MMM articles that really resonated with me was the "position of strength" essay - the idea that once you become financially independent, you can use that position of strength to help those around you.  Your vision for creating an intentional community sounds really meaningful.   

Well... if you saved 10 years of "time to FI", but then had to work an additional 10 years to shorten another person's "time to FI", have you actually benefited in any way? Wouldn't you be better off skipping the "middleman" so to speak?

Yes, but if you saved 10 years of "time to FI" but then had to work an additional 5 years?  Or two?  Definitely worth it, right? 

Zikoris

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2016, 10:56:15 PM »
@geekinprogress - that sounds amazing!  One of the MMM articles that really resonated with me was the "position of strength" essay - the idea that once you become financially independent, you can use that position of strength to help those around you.  Your vision for creating an intentional community sounds really meaningful.   

Well... if you saved 10 years of "time to FI", but then had to work an additional 10 years to shorten another person's "time to FI", have you actually benefited in any way? Wouldn't you be better off skipping the "middleman" so to speak?

Yes, but if you saved 10 years of "time to FI" but then had to work an additional 5 years?  Or two?  Definitely worth it, right?

Sure, if it was actually the case - I'd have to see some actual math though, because I'm having a hard time picturing how two years of my office clerk salary could add up to enough for someone else to retire 10 years earlier.

a-scho

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2016, 02:25:25 AM »
I have often fantasized about a lottery system that helps spread FI. It goes something like this:

People could buy lottery tickets for a dollar apiece. For every million dollars in the jackpot would be one winner. Instead of being given the million dollars as a whole chunk, they would get 4% per year, in monthly installments. But, the million is never really theirs. It would be in an account, they get their 4% every year, and when they die, the million(or the amount it grows to)goes back into the jackpot for someone else to "win". One of the conditions of getting the monthly payments would be mandatory in person meetings every six months to prove you are still alive, to cut down on family/friends bilking the system. plus during these meetings they would be subtly, yet effectively, exposed to mustachian ideas. They would be shown that if Mrmoneymustache could live a decent life on 25,000, they could too.
Instead of our current lotteries with one person winning 500,000,000 it would be 500 people winning. Winners would only be allowed to win once to give other people a chance. At first it might be 1 out of millions who are winners. But, as time goes by, it will go down to 1 in thousands, then 1 in hundreds, etc. Within a couple of decades, every family will have someone who's a lottery winner/exposed to Mustachianism. And, I feel, the more people around you who are mustachian increases the chances of you being that way also. This system would spread the wealth around, increase people becoming FI. it would also spread mustachianism around.   I wouldn't work extra years to help others achieve FI sooner, but I would donate 100 bucks every year to the lottery jackpot to help someone "win" FI. 

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2016, 04:09:49 AM »
These ideas sound interesting, but you have to be careful they don't become pyramid schemes that would only work if people are pressured into bringing in new members. Also it sounds like the type of thing that works well on paper, but what if people drop out, willl they still own their stake in the trust, and how will this affect others?

Pyramid schemes are illegal in most countries, and lotteries are very heavily regulated, with very specific rules. So hippie commune might be the way to go :)

ETA: my own dream of helping others break free is to set up a trust for my money when I die. I'd like to help art students start their careers, with a scholarship fund of some sort.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 04:12:20 AM by Mmm_Donuts »

arebelspy

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2016, 04:47:17 AM »
While some of the ideas here are impractical, I like the spirit.  And some are quite neat.

I'd totally live in an MMM commune, with tiny homes, a huge communal garden, and everyone being FI (or close, and working online) so there was no free rider problem typical of communes.  No one has any obligation to work, but can do what they wish.

I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

scrubbyfish

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2016, 06:15:49 AM »
Following :)   One of my favourite topics, and how I have largely lived the last so many years.

In addition to the actions already mentioned, I've focused a lot on teaching, in grassroots environments, how to maximize what IS available to people struggling, people dealing with those factors mentioned by geekinprogress. This action takes little to no personal cash, and allows a person to choose their environment (I think this is important, including because a commune can be as toxic as a 1:1 relationship can), yet helps people connect with their own financial freedom journey. It's fun to watch!

shelivesthedream

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2016, 06:28:51 AM »
My dream for the MMM socialist utopia involves two arms:

1. Educating people about FIRE
2. Working together to remove barriers and make FIRE-accelerating choices really easy

Examples of 1: FIRE classes in school and university, adult education, giving out compulsory information when people get an incentive (e.g. I've always thought that if I owned real estate for rent I would set the price slightly below market rate to attract great tenants and then make reading a FIRE information pack a compulsory part of the contract)

Examples of 2: clubbing together to install free water fountains, guerilla painting bike lanes (as well as lobbying local government for them), setting up at-cost packaging-free bulk purchase stations/clubs for beans and rice, lobbying for people to pay-as-you-trash, lobbying for more pedestrianised areas, setting up a communal workshop or tool-sharing club, improving and publicising local libraries, teaming up with building developers to build 'model' Mustachian neighbourhoods or even new towns...

I wouldn't want to be giving money to any one individual, although I get and like the Golem Trust, because I think there are things we can do to benefit everyone. The lottery idea upthread is a fun one, but again it would take such a long time for more than a few people to benefit. I toy sometimes with what I would do with my money if I died really rich (unlikely at the moment...) and I am currently torn between leaving it all to plant trees (and other similar perennial plants and shrubs) or leaving it to my local council in a really bitchily specific trust to incentivise Mustachian town planning. However, one thing Mustachians can do it they have heirs is to leave them a form of FI, such as by leaving the estate in the market and disbursing 4% of its value every year (having educated their heirs about FIRE, and perhaps up to a maximum annual value per person and perhaps starting from a certain age like 25 or 30). If they add to the 'family trust' when they die then it will perpetuate through increasing generations and your entire family will be FIRE.

(BTW, for those who haven't read the Pratchett books please don't get hung up on the specifics of the Golem Trust. We all know Pratchett didn't invent them and that humans are not dedicated work machines.)

Cranky

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2016, 06:37:07 AM »
Start a co-op.

SwordGuy

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2016, 10:06:09 AM »
"Very few people have the strength of character to overcome such a lack of adversity."

Prime Minister William Pitt the younger on Prince George IV.


The problem with just handing people FI is that they didn't earn it.  Very few will actually benefit by it.  A huge percentage of them will actually be worse off.   

If you don't believe me on that, just start googling what happens to people who win the lottery.  A huge percentage of them end up completely broke and living hand-to-mouth for 6 to 8 months out of every year  until the next lottery check comes in.

My family actually knew a family that won $10,000,000 in the casinos at a slot machine.  It ruined 3 out of 4 members of that family.  One is dead and two are completely broke, i.e., lost everything they had before winning plus what they won.  So, to me, it's not just statistics.  It's real people who seemed to have their act together and totally came unglued.

music lover

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2016, 10:38:24 AM »
My dream for the MMM socialist utopia involves two arms:

There is no such thing as a socialist utopia. That only exists in the minds of those whose vision of "sharing" means just one thing: That they "share" (take) your wealth, and not that you share theirs.

RedmondStash

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2016, 10:54:11 AM »
I like the idea of using FI to help other people achieve it too.

I'm not sure about actually providing money for it; people understand best what they are actively involved in, not what's given to them. But educating people, offering examples and advice, showing that yes, they can do this too -- I could get into that.

But that's really what the MMM blog and other blogs like it already do, not to mention countless books. A friend of mine mentioned MMM to me a few years back, and I dove right in. I've mentioned it to friends, and they don't dive in. Not everyone is cut out to think this way.

The best thing I think we can offer is information in a form that reduces fear. Money and math are stressful for a lot of people, so much so that they won't even read about financial stuff, even if they'd be inclined to participate. I have friends who've said flat-out that they won't read financial articles I send them because it just stresses them out and they don't understand it.

One friend of mine's eyes glazed over when I brought up the different kind of retirement accounts, and she said, "Can you put it in terms of bears?" So I explained traditional IRAs, Roth IRAs, and non-retirement accounts in the form of bears, salmon, and fish farms belong to Farmer Ira, Farmer Roth, and Farmer Sam. That's the only way it was palatable for her, but when I was done, she really did get it. Some people really need it broken down to that metaphorical level so their heads don't explode.

It's laudable to want to help other people. The trick is figuring out which people are receptive to being helped, and how best to reach them.

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2016, 11:41:00 AM »
Redmond Stash, I love that idea of using metaphors. I think most people would be interested in concepts of FIRE if it was explained the right way. Most people are just not interested in hearing about the technical details right away, even if they're important to the How of FIRE.

Some people are more visual learners. This is why many PF people explain retirement vehicles as buckets and umbrellas. Then people can imagine the concept.

I wonder if there's a way to gamify the whole thing, too? Like what if an app like YNAB gave little rewards that you accumulate for spending under a certain amount, or for saving at a goal that you set for yourself. For me, watching my money grow is a pretty appealing "game" in itself, but I wonder if there's a better way to turn it into a visual game, rather than just numbers.

What if the metaphors you described were in an app related to real bank accounts. And you were responsible for feeding the animals and helping the farmers. So, every 100$ you save gives the farmer enough fish feed to keep his fish farm going in a sim game. And overspending causes bad things to happen - fish die! Bears get hungry and eat the fish! Or something like that.

Any app developers out there? :)

Bertram

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2016, 03:07:34 PM »
I like ideas where you do good and people pay it forward to create an avalanche of positive.

But: Living together with other people under the condition that you follow the same lifestyle choices they do... sounds like a cult/brainwashing/religion.

Borrowing people money or giving them advtanges with the goal of making it back later.... sounds like a business.

I think simply teaching personal finance and related skills is enough of a goal and doesn't carry any odd connotations. And most people will be in a good enough shape to make those last few steps on their own...

geekinprogress

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2016, 03:33:03 PM »
Redmond Stash, I love that idea of using metaphors. I think most people would be interested in concepts of FIRE if it was explained the right way. Most people are just not interested in hearing about the technical details right away, even if they're important to the How of FIRE.

Some people are more visual learners. This is why many PF people explain retirement vehicles as buckets and umbrellas. Then people can imagine the concept.

I wonder if there's a way to gamify the whole thing, too? Like what if an app like YNAB gave little rewards that you accumulate for spending under a certain amount, or for saving at a goal that you set for yourself. For me, watching my money grow is a pretty appealing "game" in itself, but I wonder if there's a better way to turn it into a visual game, rather than just numbers.

What if the metaphors you described were in an app related to real bank accounts. And you were responsible for feeding the animals and helping the farmers. So, every 100$ you save gives the farmer enough fish feed to keep his fish farm going in a sim game. And overspending causes bad things to happen - fish die! Bears get hungry and eat the fish! Or something like that.

Any app developers out there? :)

I think it'd be totally doable.  Hybridize Mint + one of the goal/productivity gamification apps out there?  You could probably also write a template of goals for someone to enter into one of the existing gamification apps, and they could just use it to focus on FI-related stuff. 

https://habitica.com/static/features

geekinprogress

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2016, 03:42:09 PM »
In addition to the actions already mentioned, I've focused a lot on teaching, in grassroots environments, how to maximize what IS available to people struggling, people dealing with those factors mentioned by geekinprogress. This action takes little to no personal cash, and allows a person to choose their environment (I think this is important, including because a commune can be as toxic as a 1:1 relationship can), yet helps people connect with their own financial freedom journey. It's fun to watch!

That sounds pretty awesome and super relevant to my interests :D  What venues have you taught through - just personal connections, or via some organizations/agencies?

intirb

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2016, 03:44:00 PM »
I agree with everyone saying that education is a cornerstone for helping people reach financial independence.  There are a lot of people (MMM included) who do great work in that area already, although I'm sure there's more to be done.  In my city, cooperative living communities can often be hubs for this kind of knowledge - for example, there's a bike-repair coop, where all the members who live in the house run bicycle repair workshops and do advocacy work for cyclists in the city. 

The lottery idea is pretty neat, although I'm not sure how you could expand it.  I get that as people die, the pool generally increases, but unless the birth rate is less than the death rate, it seems like the lottery isn't going to expand very fast.

I don't want to hand anyone financial independence, but if you can reduce someone's working time from 17 years to 12 years, they still worked pretty damn hard for their freedom.  I would still say they earned it, even if they had some help along the way.  Plus, in a situation like the subsidized rent one, they'd be surrounded by a community of mustachians so they'd learn good skills along the way.  It's not the same as being handed money or winning the lottery.


Borrowing people money or giving them advtanges with the goal of making it back later.... sounds like a business.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a self-sustaining non-profit.  Where the proceeds go to subsidizing e.g. more rooms to help people along their way.

Sure, if it was actually the case - I'd have to see some actual math though, because I'm having a hard time picturing how two years of my office clerk salary could add up to enough for someone else to retire 10 years earlier.

Imagine your savings rate is 50% of your income and your rent costs 25% of your income.  If you didn't have to pay rent, you could increase your savings rate to 75%.  Basically, a group of generous financially independent mustachians are living in their hippie commune and rent out a room or a tiny house to you.  They put the proceeds from your rent into a trust.  It would normally take you 17 years to financial independence, but after 12 years, they give you the first 7 years worth of rent back (which has been stored in an index fund this whole time).  So basically, your savings rate was 75% instead of 50%, and you reached FI earlier than you would have otherwise.  The money left over (5 years of rent) can be used to, say, buy another tiny house (or it can at least be put towards that purpose), and after a while you have TWO tiny houses that can be rented out to aspiring mustachians...

It's a great deal for the renter, but it requires a quite generous group of people to get this started.  Eventually it would sort of build on itself and become self-sustaining though, I think.  No one is getting financial independence for free, but they are getting help along the way.  The Trust profits 5 years of rent.  The renter profits 7 years of rent.  The original donors lose out on 12 years of rent.  Maybe the Trust could buy them out eventually though.  These numbers are obviously simplified to make a point, but I wonder if you could set up something like this.  Or maybe I'll just join arebelspy's commune :P.

Anyway, keep the ideas coming!  I'm glad I'm not the only one who dreams of the MMM socialist utopia!

shelivesthedream

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2016, 04:02:06 PM »
My dream for the MMM socialist utopia involves two arms:

There is no such thing as a socialist utopia. That only exists in the minds of those whose vision of "sharing" means just one thing: That they "share" (take) your wealth, and not that you share theirs.

Sorry, I forget that Americans are so weird about the word "socialism". In my original post I meant it as a wry comment on the fact that a lot of the things I was suggesting were actually quite dogmatic (forcing people to give up cars and things like that), but I guess tone of voice would have helped with that...

RedmondStash

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2016, 04:07:36 PM »
What if the metaphors you described were in an app related to real bank accounts. And you were responsible for feeding the animals and helping the farmers. So, every 100$ you save gives the farmer enough fish feed to keep his fish farm going in a sim game. And overspending causes bad things to happen - fish die! Bears get hungry and eat the fish! Or something like that.

Any app developers out there? :)

That's a great idea! Gamification is huge, and it's so much less threatening than the real world. So finding a way to make the real world feel as free of real consequence as a game might help people dip their toes in the water more comfortably. The main problem I see is that it's still delayed gratification, because you can really only affect the world monthly or maybe weekly. But maybe every time you skip getting a Starbuck's latte, you gain a fish? There are definite possibilities.

YogiKitti

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2016, 04:12:55 PM »
What should happen is we create an mustachian neighborhood. Small to medium houses with optimal facing windows, room for gardens, and wide bike paths. Then we gather mustachians to populate it who are willing to share their tools or expertise with each other to further hone their mustachian skills.

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2016, 04:59:11 PM »
What should happen is we create an mustachian neighborhood. Small to medium houses with optimal facing windows, room for gardens, and wide bike paths. Then we gather mustachians to populate it who are willing to share their tools or expertise with each other to further hone their mustachian skills.

Yeah, I'm too much of a hermit to join in. But y'all go ahead and then post about it. I'll enjoy the pictures.

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2016, 05:48:00 PM »
That sounds pretty awesome and super relevant to my interests :D  What venues have you taught through - just personal connections, or via some organizations/agencies?

Through orgs. i.e., I develop my own material and format, then ask an agency to host (provide space) and other places to help me get word out. Most of the time no one is paid (neither me nor the host agency), but sometimes a grant is accessed. Now that I can afford to do this independently, I don't bother seeking grants because funding bodies often have little practical sense. Personal Mustachianism for the win yet again, because then we can do this stuff without a funder's restrictions :)

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2016, 06:35:45 PM »
That sounds pretty awesome and super relevant to my interests :D  What venues have you taught through - just personal connections, or via some organizations/agencies?

Through orgs. i.e., I develop my own material and format, then ask an agency to host (provide space) and other places to help me get word out. Most of the time no one is paid (neither me nor the host agency), but sometimes a grant is accessed. Now that I can afford to do this independently, I don't bother seeking grants because funding bodies often have little practical sense. Personal Mustachianism for the win yet again, because then we can do this stuff without a funder's restrictions :)

Awesome!  I do a lot of teaching/curriculum development for training new folks at my current job, and I'm kind of excited about the idea of finding different ways to use those skills post-FIRE...

scrubbyfish

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2016, 06:38:33 PM »
Awesome!  I do a lot of teaching/curriculum development for training new folks at my current job, and I'm kind of excited about the idea of finding different ways to use those skills post-FIRE...

Oh wow, yeah, there'll be no shortage of ways!! :)    And people REALLY appreciate it.

mareofnight

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2016, 09:53:14 PM »
I'm not sure the lottery pool idea would be a good investment - the lottery typically makes a profit, so it is rare that the pot is ever greater than the price of buying up every ticket. If you would loose money on buying all the tickets, then a group buying some fraction of the tickets collectively would also loose money, in the long run.

If you want to fund others' FI, helping people in poor countries is much more efficient than helping those in rich ones. (Takes way less money.)

If we want to help everyone in our own country be less dependant on work, maybe basic income would be a good method? Give everyone enough for a basic living (no cost of living adjustment - if you're in NYC, either get a good job or move somewhere cheap), and people who want a nicer lifestyle can save up for it, work part time, or craft nice things for themselves. (I'm not sure we're rich enough to support this yet, but we will get there eventually as tech improves.)

arebelspy

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2016, 12:23:35 AM »
But: Living together with other people under the condition that you follow the same lifestyle choices they do... sounds like a cult/brainwashing/religion.

I'd just like a giant plot of land with a bunch of tiny homes on it inhabited by Mustachians.

No conditions--everyone is FI and can do whatever the * they want.  No expectations--being FI, we don't need to rely on people pulling their weight.

Just people who are similar, enjoying each other's company.
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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2016, 02:38:06 AM »
I've also thought about this from a slightly different point of view:

When I run cfiresim, to get to a reasonable level of success based on 4%, I end up with the majority of cases giving me a huge stash at the end of my expected lifetime. I don't have kids or anyone that will need the stash when me and SO are dead. If future me could send some cash to current me (adjusted for inflation but not growth); I could FIRE right now, and as long as market returns are not worst-case, I would be rolling in it by the time future me needs to send the cash back to then-past me.

In the absence of time travel, this could work in a collective, either when I am dead, or when my stash is double what I need (or whatever), I could gift/lend/entrust that stash to someone else (or several someones)  to speed up their journey, and on average they wouldn't touch the principal.

Basically an inheritance programme but within the Mustachian family rather than a genetic family.

It could also operate as a safety net (along the lines of First Retire, then Get Rich post): a bunch of similar, reasonable mmm'ers quit the day job to do something that interests them more, some of them end up getting paid (/winning Nobel prizes) for the work, some of them do not, some do things that are great for society but unpaid. Pooling the risk means that each mmm'er needs to work the grind for fewer years, because they don't need to have a fully funded stash when they leave the day job, as on average they will be earning more money than they know what to do with.

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2016, 05:06:00 AM »
This is an awesome idyllic thread in my mind. Thanks for starting it. In a way, we're all already a part of this movement in what I've found on this site to optimize my life/spending/saving. I further share what I know/learned with anyone willing to listen.

In a straightforward, practical approach, things like the bike repair co-op or community gardens are something very real and applicable now. Just do these things to pay it forward and hope the trend continues.

Also posting to follow.

Doubleh

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2016, 06:17:15 AM »
Great thread and I'm keen to see what other ideas come out.

I've given a fair bit of thought to this concept, initially in relation to what inheritance I would one day leave to my children. I certainly don't want to hand them a huge amount of cash as I've seen plenty of examples of this harming people.

I wonder possibly putting the money into trust which they can then access to speed up their own time to FIRE. For example if they save $100k in their own fire fund, they can then access the 4% withdrawal of an additional $100k of the trust's assets - on condition that they preserve their capital and ultimately leave it to the trust. This would double their saving power and allow them to retire earlier, but not to FIRE without putting in enough work to have skin in the game. At the same time it would preserve and grow the value of the trust to help others down the line.

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2016, 06:57:40 AM »
This is very ambitious.  However, there is a core problem with the concept, and that is that FIRE is primarily a financial solution to a financial problem.  If you contribute funds to help somebody FIRE faster, and then he pays it forward to the next person, there are two possible scenarios: it is either net present value (NPV) positive for the person or NPV negative.  If it's NPV negative, then the person would have been better off without your intervention.  If it is NPV positive for the person, then they did not fully "pay forward" your charity, and the trust does not have the compounding effect that you're looking for.

The only narrow exception I can see would be lending people money at lower interest rates than they could normally access to jumpstart their FIRE -- for example, lending to help them repay credit card debt at the beginning of their FIRE efforts.  However, these kinds of efforts are not riskless, and I think that you would find that most of your efforts go towards people who don't end up reaching FIRE, and some of those efforts may not be repaid at all.

arebelspy

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2016, 07:02:28 AM »
Great thread and I'm keen to see what other ideas come out.

I've given a fair bit of thought to this concept, initially in relation to what inheritance I would one day leave to my children. I certainly don't want to hand them a huge amount of cash as I've seen plenty of examples of this harming people.

I wonder possibly putting the money into trust which they can then access to speed up their own time to FIRE. For example if they save $100k in their own fire fund, they can then access the 4% withdrawal of an additional $100k of the trust's assets - on condition that they preserve their capital and ultimately leave it to the trust. This would double their saving power and allow them to retire earlier, but not to FIRE without putting in enough work to have skin in the game. At the same time it would preserve and grow the value of the trust to help others down the line.

Those exact numbers probably wouldn't work (as essentially they'd have to save half as much, if they have access to double the capital, so equivalent to a 8% WR instead of 4%, which only had a 25% success rate, for 30 years, historically), but something similar to this idea could.

If they know they're not going to care about where their money goes when they die, committing extra future money to buy years of life now could be well worth it.
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scrubbyfish

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2016, 08:45:00 AM »
In a straightforward, practical approach, things like the bike repair co-op or community gardens are something very real and applicable now. Just do these things...

For me, the slightly less direct action of teaching gets people so much further so much sooner that I'm very careful to focus on this. i.e., I can help them maintain their bike or I can teach them how to increase their income by 30% or cut their spending by 20%...and the latter two end up giving a much bigger oomph. It's especially powerful for people with the very lowest income, living on $550/mo to cover housing, food, meds, etc.

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2016, 08:51:06 AM »
I quite like this "matched funds" trust idea. I've been considering an age limit on the trust (e.g. Not until you are 25 or 30) as a way to make people work beforehand but they could easily bum around until then knowing the fairy godmother was coming to save them. This is like an employer match to double the value of your personal contribution but preserves the capital.

I guess if you had two children you could start the trust with $200k and say that for every $10000 they paid into the trust they would get 4% of $20000 (an additional draw on the original trust as well as their own $10000) out up to a limit of $100k each and perhaps with a minimum vesting time of five years. It's kinda complicated but might be a good way to do 'family trust' inheritance while retaining personal responsibility. Then they at least double the size of the trust (assuming no market returns beyond 4% + inflation) for the next generation.

scrubbyfish

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2016, 08:55:06 AM »
I wonder possibly putting the money into trust which they can then access to speed up their own time to FIRE. For example if they save $100k in their own fire fund, they can then access the 4% withdrawal of an additional $100k of the trust's assets - on condition that they preserve their capital and ultimately leave it to the trust.

There are a few programs like this. We can continue following their templates based on what's working.

The govt of Canada offers a trust for people with disabilities. For the first few years, save up to $3500 and receive $10500. Conditions? To keep the grant part, nothing can be touched for many years (encourages long term savings; investment growth), and when it is used, only for disability supports. The gain to the govt is that people with disabilities, who generally have massive extra costs, will rely on that vs nothing or only govt in their aging.

A credit union also offered an Asset Development Account. A person with extremely low income (i.e., $550-$900/mo) could open this account, sometimes there would be dollar matches, and the savings were permitted by welfare, etc, instead of reducing their income. It was a way to encourage budgeting and help people create a cushion, which can be critical in transitioning off welfare programs.

I'm sure there are more. Good stuff!!

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2016, 10:32:15 AM »
I'm looking at setting up a trust that would pay up to 1/3 the median income to our descendants.   (Plus, perhaps, some money for education or to start up a business.)

My idea was to set a "high water mark" of value in the trust when the trust is set up.   Money can be drawn out at the lesser of 1/3 median income or 4% or 1/2 the growth in the fund that year.  However, they would not be allowed to withdraw funds that would put the balance below the high water mark.  At the end of each calendar year the high water mark would be re-set if the market value is now higher than the mark.

In effect, the principal would always be protected.   1/3 the median family income is a real boost to people who are responsible but not enough to send them crazy while with huge sums of money.  And, because the funds only get disbursed in good financial times, they will need to be taught not to depend upon it.  (I.e., don't count on it for the house payment or the car payment!)

I think this would scale reasonably well as the number of descendants grows since 1/2 the growth of the fund is plowed back in and nothing is taken out when the market is down.

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2016, 11:49:41 AM »
What do y'all think about house-building as a way to enable the FIRE of others? If you had a plot of land and wanted to build on it, you could certainly design the new houses in such a way as to encourage or default to more Mustachian ways of living. For example, install the highest eco-specs you can (insulation, double glazing, resuing greywater, sun-oriented windows...), landscape with native plants, have a large covered bike rack and a very small driveway, don't build the house too big, use long-lasting classic materials...

Housing shortages are a major problem in the UK, and while we don't have the McMansion problems of the US, a Mustachian-minded investor could make a big difference in the future lives of tens or even hundreds of families by building suitable housing that would last a long time, be easy to clean and maintain, and use less energy (and therefore money). Personally, I am currently interested in a midway between our inefficient rows of terraced housing and the horrendously impersonal tower blocks. There has been a large rise in single-person households in recent decades, and I think smaller blocks of flats (maybe 4-5 stories high, one flat per storey) that were well-insulated for noise (as well as heat) and had balconies as well as a small communal garden could do quite well here. Historically we have hated living in flats but I think that's exacerbated by the whacking great tower blocks that just seem inhumanly large. I think we would take better to something that looks and feels more like a human-sized house.

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2016, 04:16:09 PM »
In Canada this is called the Canadian Pension Plan - CPP. All working members of society contribute each month to the government run fund that you then receive payments from when you turn 65. While its not without problems it generally mimics your proposal; everybody works towards freeing the eldest among us from working any longer.

I think almost everyone in North America already has access to work freedom in 40 years; most people just want someone else to give them the money though. Some of us want freedom in 30, 20 or 10 which is where it gets complicated. Should there be a minimal amount of effort by each Golem to free their brethren? Since new golems are continuously born in our society should the old golems remain working so that newer golems never need to?

scrubbyfish

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2016, 06:04:44 PM »
What do y'all think about house-building as a way to enable the FIRE of others?

I think a focus on the foundational element of housing is extremely important, yes. Safe shelter can make or break a person's ability to do lots of other stuff, including access work. We're up against the Powers in this area, as municipalities, regional districts, and developers get to put in stipulations demanding massive houses or unnecessarily large lots per person. Working on it :)

I very much like the idea, too, of everyone working for 10 or so years on crap jobs (so that everyone is taking their turn at those) then only on (paid or unpaid) passion projects after that. I also like how ER can put more of the good jobs into the hands of others, and allow them to bring fresh ideas and energy to those too.

arebelspy

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2016, 01:10:46 AM »
In Canada this is called the Canadian Pension Plan - CPP. All working members of society contribute each month to the government run fund that you then receive payments from when you turn 65. While its not without problems it generally mimics your proposal; everybody works towards freeing the eldest among us from working any longer.

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cerat0n1a

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2016, 06:15:15 AM »
We're up against the Powers in this area, as municipalities, regional districts, and developers get to put in stipulations demanding massive houses or unnecessarily large lots per person. Working on it :)

Opposite situation in most of Britain. Developers want to fit as many units as they can into a piece of land, and local councils typically keen for them to do it. Problem is that relatively few people want to live in apartments; everybody wants a house with a garden. So new build flats outside London and maybe a few other big cities tend up end up being owned only by landlords.

On the subject of trusts, compound interest down the generations etc. some of the potential problems with this were first encountered in the 17th century, loads of peculiar laws around this across the English speaking world -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities

scrubbyfish

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Re: The Golem Trust - helping society break free
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2016, 08:13:11 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_against_perpetuities

Very interesting! Yes, I now remember this coming up when I created my will. Besides for my son's lifetime (I want him to have some extra support as he has a significant disability), I have no interest in giving money to family or other specific person. I have no passion around "my descendants" or "my family line". To me, all of us on the planet are related. So once my son is set up for disability costs, I'd want to set up so my money goes to causes/dreams. Land conservation, species protection, legal education for the very poor, second-stage housing, and a community of quiet tiny homes.

I think second-stage housing (low-cost, safe housing usually for 1-3 years between the stages of emergency shelter and independence) is a great stepping stone, helping the people most marginalized to navigate to their dreams.