The future of Europe

[mucstache]

Being European - I wonder what everyone's (inside or outside) perspective is on the future of the continent. Where do you see Europe going in the big picture - financially, socially, quality of life?

I often get the impression that many Americans are dissatisfied with the current state of the USA. Heard multiple times of considerations to move to Europe. Why?

Also, are you following the euro zone developments, such as the latest installment of yet another round of bailouts?

I guess I am just really fed up with Europe's direction and am wondering if it looks as bad from the outside vs. from within...

[Fomerly known as something]

What are you fed up with? 

I think some countries in Europe are lower cost of living so that is the main appeal.  And here really we talk about Europe but we really mean specific places with in EU to reside with the idea of travel within the whole.  Health care is also a draw because of organized access in addition to generally being cheaper even if it is necessary to “buy in”.

[socaso]

Europe is rather idealized by some people in the US. People refer to social programs available in some European countries and would like to see similar programs here. I think a lot of people who talk about Europe this way don't read up on the current political situation.

[OtherJen]

Europe is rather idealized by some people in the US. People refer to social programs available in some European countries and would like to see similar programs here. I think a lot of people who talk about Europe this way don't read up on the current political situation.

I think every place has problems. The EU has clear economic issues, and Brexit sounds like a mess.

However, it seems that people are less likely to be bankrupted by medical debt in many European countries. That's hugely appealing to many of us, especially as our federal government is trying to remove even the current minimal health insurance provisions.

[ender]

Europe is rather idealized by some people in the US. People refer to social programs available in some European countries and would like to see similar programs here. I think a lot of people who talk about Europe this way don't read up on the current political situation.

The grass is always greener.

[PDXTabs]

As a US/UK dual national that has lived his entire adult life (but not entire life) in the USA I would say that:

• Politics in the UK are a mess, but not as much of a mess as the USA. This is in part due to the parliamentary system in the UK. The US presidency/house/senate system is uniquely setup for getting nothing done.
• Heath care in the UK isn't perfect, and the NHS has been consistently underfunded lately, but it still handily beats what's going on in the USA.
• If you talk to older folks in the UK about rail travel they'll tell you that it used to be better, but it still handily beats what's going on in the USA.

I would add that the EU is the greatest peace project in the history of Europe. I do fear that the single currency will be its downfall.

EDITed to add - just look at the unemployment response between the USA and UK during Covid-19. Trump makes Boris Johnson look calm and reasonable. Along those lines social welfare programs in the UK are weak compared to some of continental Europe but they are way stronger than the USA.

EDIT2: and as a Scot, university education is remarkably more affordable in Scotland than the USA.

EDIT3: the only reason that I'm still here is that I have kids on the west coast and software jobs pay more here. The second that my kids are old enough I'm out.

[LWYRUP]

Europe is rather idealized by some people in the US. People refer to social programs available in some European countries and would like to see similar programs here. I think a lot of people who talk about Europe this way don't read up on the current political situation.

Or there is the idea that Europeans are more sophisticated.  (Maybe some, but the folks talking about how sophisticated Europeans are clearly haven't met most of my cousins.) 

I like many European social programs, however I fear they may not be sustainable in some places.  US has many problems as well, but we can solve some of them by raising taxes.  I am not sure Italy, for example, can get out of its problems by raising taxes.  I suspect they are at the point in the Laffer curve where it would do more harm than good (while we still have room to ride up the curve).  So in a few years the USA will take its pain in the form of higher taxes, while Italy may actually have to slash some benefits.  It seems like that will be a tougher pill to swallow.

Things in the USA are really shitty right now.  I hope they are better in a few years. 

[jrhampt]

I've always liked the idea of moving to Canada moreso than moving to Europe.  My sister lives in Europe, but the rest of my family is in the US.  Canada is close, but north and cooler, has healthcare, and I really like the eastern maritimes. 

[SotI]

From inside Europe, before Corona, I have long since thought that the EU was pretty messed up and heading further towards a long-term decline. There is nothing culturally, politically or economically, that indicates a positive trajectory.  I pretty much gave up on investing within the EU, I even pulled out of my few remaining Swiss investments last year, as I simply didn't seen any growth or innovation potential.
I figured things will be economically hashed out between North America and China/ Asia-Pacific, so my investments are overweight in both regions.

Corona-times: US is doing much worth than I expected, but by and large, I still think it will be between them. The EU is going to collapse imo, it's just a matter of another decade or so.
Just wondering atm if the US will self-destruct first. If so, I will start learning Mandarin.

I would prefer to move out of the fallout zone, though, but haven't found the right opportunity yet. Somewhere right out at the periphery, methinks.

[LWYRUP]

China has plenty of its own problems too.  Three Gorges Dam being the most recent.   I am also a lot of very bright, innovative Hong Kongese are probably thinking about what life overseas might look like right about now. 

Stock markets rise on a wall of worry so the best bet is to stay diversified and keep calm.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Can not wait to move to Europe, that’s the dream.

[Michael in ABQ]

Financially - the EU does not seem destined to last. There's too many competing interests and at some point the the more prosperous countries will stop wanting to fund the spending of their poorer southern and eastern cousins. Italy is the third largest economy and it's seemingly been on the edge of collapse for years. 

Socially - nationalism is definitely on an upward trajectory and COVID-19 laid bare a lot of the assumptions that Europeans would come together to support each other. Instead they reverted to their national interest - which makes perfect sense. Do Germans think of themselves as Germans first or Europeans? What about Hungarians, or Greeks? In the US I don't think you'd find many who would think of themselves as Californians or New Yorkers before they think of themselves as Americans. Aside from economics and bureaucratic inertia, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot holding the EU together.

Quality of life - my personal experience in Europe has been a few airports and one night in Italy when there was plane trouble. In general, the impression I get is a lower standard of living than most Americans are used to - at least in material terms. Smaller living spaces, fewer amenities/luxuries, fewer vehicles, etc. The health care system in the US has been fine for me, but I've had access to relatively cheap and high quality government-subsidized healthcare through the military my whole adult life. Taxes are generally much higher and while there are obviously increased services that go along with that, personally I wouldn't want to make the tradeoff. That would be a quality of life issue for me - paying 15-20% sales tax and higher income taxes would be discouraging to the incentive to work hard to be able to provide for your family. Knowing that 30, 40, 50% of your earnings would be taxed.

[John Galt incarnate!]

Being European - I wonder what everyone's (inside or outside) perspective is on the future of the continent. Where do you see Europe going in the big picture - financially, socially, quality of life?

I often get the impression that many Americans are dissatisfied with the current state of the USA. Heard multiple times of considerations to move to Europe. Why?

Also, are you following the euro zone developments, such as the latest installment of yet another round of bailouts?

I guess I am just really fed up with Europe's direction and am wondering if it looks as bad from the outside vs. from within...

I don't pay much attention to trends or everyday life  in Europe.

All the same, it doesn't seem like a  bad place to live.

I think I'd like living in Spain or Portugal because of their moderate climate.

Way up north by Iceland, Norway, or Sweden would  be much too cold for me.

[John Galt incarnate!]

I've always liked the idea of moving to Canada moreso than moving to Europe.  My sister lives in Europe, but the rest of my family is in the US.  Canada is close, but north and cooler, has healthcare, and I really like the eastern maritimes.

I'm sure I'd like living in rural Canada if it weren't so cold.

[Miss Prim]

My dad was born and raised in the UK and my mother was American.  My mom married my dad in the UK, had me, and than when I was 3 months old she moved back to the US and her parents house because my dad had to do 2 years of service and she couldn't get into married housing and didn't want to live with her in laws.  My dad emigrated to the US when I was 2 and lived here until he died at 85.

We travelled back every few years visiting my grandparents and other relatives on both sides as my mom was visiting relatives when she met my dad.  When we first went there, I was amazed that their houses and appliances were so small and the grocery stores were small also.   But, I liked that fact that life seemed to be so much less stressful there. As I got older, I loved the neighborhood pubs that you could walk to, in fact my grandfather never owned a car in his life, he walked everywhere.   We had to drive everywhere in the US where we lived. 


I've thought a lot over the years whether I would have liked living in the UK better than the US.  I guess it is all what you are used to.  Although I love visiting the land of my birth, my life is here with my extended family.  I'm American and warts and all, I still appreciate being here. 


As for the future of Europe, I could see problems with some countries becoming no longer willing to subsidize other countries in their system.  There seems to be a lot of difference between countries in terms of economic responsibility.  How it will hold up in the future, I just don't know.

[rocketpj]

Our family has a house in Greece.  More accurately, my father in law has a house, but he has set it up to go to his kids eventually - and we all have free use of it in the meantime.  On top of that there is a chunk of undeveloped land in a resort town that we've talked about developing.

However, it is Greece.  I love it there, we love visiting.  Can't imagine working there or trying to run a business, particularly now.  And as much as I love Greek food, I am a Canadian at heart and after a month I am starting to pine for some Indian curry, or Vietnamese, or Chinese, or French, or whatever.

I will happily spend a few months a year there, using the house as a base for travel in the rest of Europe and North Africa.  But it will be after FIRE.  More accurately after the kids are moved out, as we are pretty much already FI.

[ItsALongStory]

My wife and I are about to move to Europe from the US. I grew up in Western Europe, moved here in 2011 and am now moving back as part of a multi-year nomadic slow travel plan. I'm clearly biased as I had a great upbringing full of privilege as a single white male.

My wife is American and very much romanticizes life in Europe, I feel she might underestimate the conveniences we have currently but her desire to travel is so strong that I'm still convinced she will like those experiences better than if we'd stayed here.

From my personal experience I have always felt that self-driven individuals do better in the US and people who aren't as much driven by material success do better in Europe. I could even feel a change in my own experience, being perfectly happy to do the bare minimum in Europe whereas in the US i worked my tail off and was somewhat successful in working my way up the corporate ladder. I'd say I prefer the US for the money making part of life, prefer the EU for the rest of life (education years as well as retirement).

My country of origin was very much part of the original group of countries that started the idea of the EU, we are relatively small but still play an influential role. From that perspective I feel my compatriots feel more loyalty to the EU than might be expected in other countries which further biases my view.

[Buffaloski Boris]

I lived in Europe for quite a few years, so my perspective is skewed as a result. Been there, done that.  My impressions:

1.  Socialized medicine doesn't work nearly as well as Americans romanticize it.  I think it does the basic stuff pretty well, which perhaps is what it needs to do.  But if you need dramatic or cutting edge treatment, you're probably screwed.  And you're going to wait in line regardless.  Unless you're a cash customer of course.

2. In some ways Europe is actually freer than the US in the sense that if you're not bothering other people, they aren't going to bother you.  But that's very location dependent.  The busybody gene seems to be stronger in Northern Europe than southern.  Still on balance, I think they're freer in their day to day lives. The US has become a nation with a lot of very unhappy busybodies who aren't fulfilled unless they're dragging other people down to their level of misery.   

3.  Americans aren't used to being routinely inconvenienced by labor actions and strikes.  Those who move there are in for a treat. 

4.  It's a lot more crowded in Europe in general and that can grate on you after awhile. 

5.  The politicians are about as inept and loathsome as they are in the US.  They have much less of an individualism focus, so dramatic stuff like shutting their countries down because of a pandemic and making sure people obey (or else!) is less of a problem.  That has it's advantages and disadvantages. 

6.  The cost of living is lower because the standard of comfort and convenience is lower. Europeans don't have and can't afford as much stuff and don't have room to store it anyway.

7.  The food on average is orders of magnitude better and healthier, although I think American cuisine on the fringe is excellent.  The alcohol laws are not idiotic like they are in much of the US.

8. You'll find good people everyplace. 

9.  Long term, Europeans are screwed economically because their birthrates have plummeted. Aging and dying populations aren't growing their economies.  The US is heading down the same path but maybe 20-30 years later.   

10.  If you're very good at what you do, particularly in tech, then you'll earn a lot more in the US. 

On balance, I'd rather earn my stash in the US and live in Europe. But it's not a homerun either way.     

[Shane]

My wife and I love Europe! I Lived there for 3 years in the late 80s, early 90s, during which time I hitchhiked all over the continent. Met many amazing people. Loved the food, the wine, the architecture, the many different cultures and languages! Went back, again, with my family, for about 6 months in 2018, and still loved it! When our daughter starts college, I'd love to go live in Europe with my wife and just bounce around from city to city, staying a month or so in each, alternating back and forth between Schengen and non-Schengen countries, every 90 days, or so. I love that it's possible to live well, even in the biggest European cities, with just a bicycle and public transport, and that it's not necessary to be super rich to have a good life. For example, as a family of three, we spent the month of April, 2018 in an Airbnb apartment in a beautiful neighborhood in Paris, eating delicious croissants and drinking great cappuccinos from the bakery across the street from our apartment, every morning, and eating out in a restaurant for at least one meal, every day, drinking great red wine and amazing Belgian ale, every day, all for a total cost of only US$4,286...for an entire month, in Paris! We also really enjoyed the Balkans, and the COL there is even cheaper. Can't wait to go back!

[realG]

Hey,

First time posting here but I've been reading MMM for years.
I live in France so I'd like to reply to a few of your points :)

Quality of life - my personal experience in Europe has been a few airports and one night in Italy when there was plane trouble. In general, the impression I get is a lower standard of living than most Americans are used to - at least in material terms. Smaller living spaces, fewer amenities/luxuries, fewer vehicles, etc.

I'd say you're right that we have a lower standard of living if your criterias are purely in material terms. That said:
- French people are consumerist almost as much as americans, we also own far too much stuff: you've done a great job at exporting your culture in Europe :D
- I'm not sure you have a better standard of living: I see american cars and cities as inefficient. You need a car to go anywhere and you have those huge ass cars which seem to be a total waste. We probably walk more and are healthier than americans.

Someone mentioned "fewer vehicles" but that's not true, at least in France, almost everyone has a car.

Except in the big cities, we have pretty big houses. They're also more solid from what I've heard.
The quality of life in France is excellent in my opinion. I've never lived in America though but I'm 100% confident that we eat healthier.

Regarding FI: the US pay higher salaries and europeans pay more taxes. FI seems easier in the US. That said, we have more advantages. Once you stop working the french government partly takes care of you financially. The health system is very good and cheap. Seriously, the health system is 100x better in France than in the US. We're shocked to see that you guys can get billed 400 000$ for a few days in hospital, this doesn't happen here.

Long term, Europeans are screwed economically because their birthrates have plummeted. Aging and dying populations aren't growing their economies.

That's it, that's why I'm afraid for Europe.
Birthrates plummeting, massive immigration of people that don't work and are violent is a reality. More and more it feels like France is becoming a third world country, insecurity is rising at an alarming rate, population is divided...

[norajean]

Europe is great to visit but difficult long term for the reasons others have noted (labor laws, politics, healthcare quality, diversity, etc). I lived in Northern Europe three years and never adjusted to the high cost of living, especially alcohol and food, nor to the mono cultural society. Interesting but not for me.

[Fomerly known as something]

Europe is rather idealized by some people in the US. People refer to social programs available in some European countries and would like to see similar programs here. I think a lot of people who talk about Europe this way don't read up on the current political situation.

The grass is always greener.

Over the septic tank

[PDXTabs]

1.  Socialized medicine doesn't work nearly as well as Americans romanticize it.  I think it does the basic stuff pretty well, which perhaps is what it needs to do.  But if you need dramatic or cutting edge treatment, you're probably screwed.  And you're going to wait in line regardless.  Unless you're a cash customer of course. 

I hear very good things about the multi-payer systems in Germany and France. If anyone from Germany or France would like to comment I would be very grateful. Even my Canadian friends shut up about their healthcare when they hear how much mine costs (premiums + family out of pocket max was $38K USD last year). Also, as far as waiting and being denied care, I payed dearly for that treatment from my HMO, and because of the US system they were the only (realistic) option that I had.

[firestarter2018]

I think the general consensus is that if you're upper-middle-class or higher, the U.S. is much better for you, but if you're middle-class or lower, the EU is better. Salaries on the East and West coasts are so high relative to other countries, and taxes so relatively low, that you can sock away a ton of investments at a fairly quick pace -- this would definitely not be possible in most EU countries. Americans really underestimate both average salaries and the standard of living in Europe.  I lived in Paris for a year during college and my host family had a dryer but never used it because electricity was so expensive. I'll admit, I didn't imagine that these relatively wealthy retirees I was staying with would be line-drying their clothes indoors in one of the chicest parts of Paris, but that kind of thing was pretty standard.

I think the EU's biggest problem is that with declining birthrates and stagnating economies, at some point they're not going to be able to pay for their generous social welfare schemes. French people protested for weeks when they proposed raising the official retirement age above 60. 60! As someone else noted, Germany and the other wealthier countries will reach a point where they are going to take a hard look at what they're subsidizing via membership in the EU, and they may wonder if it's still worth it.

[reeshau]

Just returned from 2 years working in Ireland.  I generally agree with the observations.  Some points from my particular experience:

While Ireland does have a public health system, it's quite common for people to have private health insurance, too.  As mentioned, this helps particularly when you need a specialist.  Waiting times for some specialties beyond a GP is measured in years for public services.

Prescriptions are a different world.  Our insurance paid 50% of prescriptions, up to $25 per year.  Only my wife used the full benefit in any year.

As a "special assignee," I got a 30% tax credit on my income over 75k.  That roughly made my net income about equal to my pay in the US.  (This would only last a maximum of 5 years)

Food prices were the same or much lower than in the US.  A lot of this is due to the presence of Aldi and Lidl.  We got Lidl's equivalent of multi-grain cheerios for 59 cents a box.(Any time--not on sale)  We laugh / cry to see store brands here above $2.00. Meat and dairy were quite cheap, but of course Ireland has strong local industries.

On the flip side, there are constantly outages of things that are taken as given.  These supply chains would never fly in the US, as things are either very limited selection (Just one surge protector available--why do you need to pick among several?) Or making due with substitutes / not quite.

One thing that surprised us was that clothes were fairly cheap.  I remember traveling in the 90's, and clothes were something you didn't get in Europe.  And my European work colleagues in the 2000's would love to hit the factory outlet store for clothes, either bringing an empty suitcase or buying one here.  I even got a great deal on shoes!

Even Amazon doesn't have things figured out:  delivery quotes (not Prime) may be a month or more, but actually take about two weeks, on average.  It took longer, and nobody really knew what would happen, with any precision.  This, despite 5,000 Amazon employees working in Ireland.

But all in all, those elements blended with the mindset in the country, too.  It wouldn't work in the US, but the systems aren't catering to Americans, either.  You get what you ask for.

We would go back to Europe in a heartbeat, but love our place in the US too.  We recognize the differences, and miss things about each.  As has also been said, I think it's easier to live (i.e. long term--years) as a FIRE retiree, than to work there trying to achieve FIRE.  My Irish colleagues were barely ready to talk defined-contribution pensions (run by insurance companies! Oh, the fee levels!) much less talk about early retirement.  The pace is set by the public pension ages, and there are not good alternative avenues for those going their own way.

Someone mentioned "fewer vehicles" but that's not true, at least in France, almost everyone has a car.

I just have to pick up on this. Yes, "a car," not cars, plural.  That's the point.

[PDXTabs]

Someone mentioned "fewer vehicles" but that's not true, at least in France, almost everyone has a car.

I just have to pick up on this. Yes, "a car," not cars, plural.  That's the point.

Yup, France has ~half as many vehicles per capita as the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita.

[Bloop Bloop]

I suspect if you're talented it's a lot easier to make a big salary in the US than in Europe.

Lawyers, bankers, doctors all earn way more in the US for equivalent seniority/exclusivity of positions.

[Moonwaves]

1.  Socialized medicine doesn't work nearly as well as Americans romanticize it.  I think it does the basic stuff pretty well, which perhaps is what it needs to do.  But if you need dramatic or cutting edge treatment, you're probably screwed.  And you're going to wait in line regardless.  Unless you're a cash customer of course. 

I hear very good things about the multi-payer systems in Germany and France. If anyone from Germany or France would like to comment I would be very grateful. Even my Canadian friends shut up about their healthcare when they hear how much mine costs (premiums + family out of pocket max was $38K USD last year). Also, as far as waiting and being denied care, I payed dearly for that treatment from my HMO, and because of the US system they were the only (realistic) option that I had.

I've lived in Germany for 12 years now and haven't really had any terrible medical experiences. I pay into a statutory health insurance rather than private. I think private can be cheaper depending on your personal circumstances/health/age etc. but seems like an awful lot of hard work from what I've observed with friends who have private - submitting receipts and filling out paperwork etc. My payment is paid directly from my salary - it's not a small amount of money (I think it's about 15% of gross salary now, I pay half and my employer pays half, something like that) but what I get for it is good. I do like that preventative stuff is expected, even demanded here. Only a small range of dental is covered here (I have a supplemental private insurance for this) and you generally have to have your card filled out showing check-ups for at least the previous five years to actually get what is covered paid for to the maximum they'll give. But I can get cancer screening done every year or two (smear test, skin screening etc.), don't have to hand over any cash to go to the doctor, and pay just a small prescription charge (€5) for any medicine prescribed.

I have only had to wait for appointments twice. Once was for a sleep clinic - that was a few months of a wait alright but on the other hand, my case was not urgent. The other time was waiting for a therepy place at a psychologist - first time I looked wait times were well over six months and most wouldn't even put me on a waiting list. (Un)luckily, the following year my sister died and as soon as the word suicide was mentioned, even if it was that of a relative, doors opened up and I had a spot within about a month. They have since changed the rules so now if you try to get an appointment with a therapist, you must be given an initial appointment within 5 weeks. You might then have to wait a while for an ongoing appointment spot (last year, for example, I had my initial appointment in mid-February and regular appointments didn't start until May) but that is also partially based on severity of need.

Apart from that, I had to see a neurologist about a year after I moved here and the receptionist was full of apologies that I would have to wait a whole two weeks for an appointment. With more apologies when I actually went for the appointment that they hadn't been able to see me sooner.  For comparison, I had to see a neurologist for the same issue in Ireland when I still lived there. Because I was going public, I waited about six months (IIRC) for an appointment. That appointment was fifteen minutes with a junior doctor taking history, about three minutes with the consultant and a referral for some tests, which meant another wait of a few weeks. In Germany, I saw the doctor immediately, she wanted similar tests done and her assistant did them all there in the surgery right away and I was also referred for an MRI, which took a couple of weeks to get. Again, priorities are set and if it had been urgent, I would have been sent to hospital to have it done immediately.

If you ask enough people, however, you will undoubtedly hear plenty of negative experiences, too. That is pretty par for the course no matter what country you're in.

[realG]

I hear very good things about the multi-payer systems in Germany and France. If anyone from Germany or France would like to comment I would be very grateful. Even my Canadian friends shut up about their healthcare when they hear how much mine costs (premiums + family out of pocket max was $38K USD last year). Also, as far as waiting and being denied care, I payed dearly for that treatment from my HMO, and because of the US system they were the only (realistic) option that I had.

French guy here. We almost pay nothing regarding health.
I paid 9300$ over 2 years to get my teeth fixed and it would have been free if I had done it before I was 18. Kids get their teeth fixed for free. As reeshau mentioned we also have private healthcare but it's not that expensive and your company pays part of yours if you're an employee. I pay around 50$ a month for private healthcare.
You paid more for your health this year than I'll ever spend in my life I guess.

I think the general consensus is that if you're upper-middle-class or higher, the U.S. is much better for you, but if you're middle-class or lower, the EU is better. Salaries on the East and West coasts are so high relative to other countries, and taxes so relatively low, that you can sock away a ton of investments at a fairly quick pace -- this would definitely not be possible in most EU countries. Americans really underestimate both average salaries and the standard of living in Europe.  I lived in Paris for a year during college and my host family had a dryer but never used it because electricity was so expensive. I'll admit, I didn't imagine that these relatively wealthy retirees I was staying with would be line-drying their clothes indoors in one of the chicest parts of Paris, but that kind of thing was pretty standard.

It depends on the country. French people pay quite a lot of taxes and yes that makes FI harder - but that also makes your retirement kinda easier to live also. What I mean is, in the US the idea is that you can only count on yourself and must save accordingly.
In France, if you work until 60-65 then you get a monthly check. So you don't have to save as much as an american either.
Switzerland, UK or Germany pay better than France and also ask for less taxes as far as I know (I'm sure about salaries, not sure about taxes).

Another thing you guys forgot is that, in France, we get 5 paid weeks of vacation every year. Americans really are lagging behind regarding traveling and going on holidays.

I can't relate to reeshau's poor experience with Amazon: we have same day delivery with Amazon Prime in big cities and in general 2 to 4 days delivery without Prime and in small towns.

I just have to pick up on this. Yes, "a car," not cars, plural.  That's the point.

Yup, France has ~half as many vehicles per capita as the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita.

reeshau does it mean americans own more than one car per person?
Because in France when I say almost everyone has a car I mean almost everyone. A couple will own 2 cars. If they have kids, the kids generally will have a car once they're 18 also. etc...
I might misinterpret but to me it means you guys simply buy too much cars, it's not like french people could not afford cars lol.

Why less vehicles per Capita? Something very different between the States and Europe is that our cities were made for humans while yours seem to be made for cars.
In Paris (french capital) you either walk or take the very performant public transports to everywhere - having a car if you live there is a waste of money and time.
I live in Lyon, #3 biggest city in France and I walk everywhere, we have public bikes that we pay nothing for (I pay 40$ a year to ride bikes in the city, I can take one anywhere, deposit anywhere... I don't have to maintain it, it's incredible)... I'll sometimes take the subway and my ride will be < 20 minutes every time.

So what I wanted to say is that we have far much cars than we need in France.

I think the EU's biggest problem is that with declining birthrates and stagnating economies, at some point they're not going to be able to pay for their generous social welfare schemes. French people protested for weeks when they proposed raising the official retirement age above 60. 60! As someone else noted, Germany and the other wealthier countries will reach a point where they are going to take a hard look at what they're subsidizing via membership in the EU, and they may wonder if it's still worth it.

Yes. The solution our governments took was massive immigration and it's not working - it just makes more people survive on welfare and insecurity rise as, at least in France, we now have more and more people simply hating France and white people.
But the same seems to be happening in the US. Do you guys think the US will do better? Why?

[Bloop Bloop]

Even if you accept that migration can undermine living conditions for some in the host country, it no doubt raises living conditions for migrants. So I would see it as a net good.

There is no justification for valuing the well-being of your country's citizens more than that of migrants coming to your country.

[ctuser1]

Yes. The solution our governments took was massive immigration and it's not working - it just makes more people survive on welfare and insecurity rise as, at least in France, we now have more and more people simply hating France and white people.
But the same seems to be happening in the US. Do you guys think the US will do better? Why?

France has very little immigration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate

France allowed in 0.6 migrants per 1000 per year from 2015 - 2020 (forecast).
Compare that with 2.9 in US, 6.4 for Australia, and 6.6 for Canada.
This number would be even more puny if you consider it includes all migration - EU and non-EU.


I was surprised to see many European countries allowing so many immigrants per this page. e.g. Switzerland 6.1, Norway 5.3, Austria 7.4, Belgium 4.2. I suspect these numbers are driven primarily by EU migrants. These countries are definitely not known as the immigrant countries the say way Canada and Australia are (or US was).

So, France has very little immigrants by raw numbers. I suspect you have the perception of "massive" immigration because a few asylum seekers were allowed in and they promptly ran to the big cities. You live in Lyon, so I bet you see a few of them around.

-----------------------

I don't think immigration will work the same way for most European countries (UK is an exception) as it tends to for Aus/Canada/US. Aus/Canada has figured out a good middle-of-the-way system of allowing migrants that are reasonably economically productive. US employment based immigration system is the best of all in terms of economic results (we have leaders too dumb to take advantage of a good thing we have going).

I suspect this has more to do with culture than government policy. What we call "Nativism" is a stand-out aberration in the US. The word "western culture" is associated with white supremacy and a common American will not touch that with a ten foot pole (if you exclude the 10%-20% or so of the population we are white supremacists or sympathizers).

I haven't really spent any time in France, but I've worked with people from all over the world, including from France. I get the vibe that the "native" culture is extremely strong in France. There is cultural pride bordering on xenophobia that is normalized in the society. Heck, I have heard a French Native in Quebec disparage something related to Quebec as "provincial". We had a large language barrier, but even then the vibe I was getting was not very pretty.

This is not unique for France. Indeed, for non-immigrant countries, I get the sense this is extremely common.

-----------------------

tl;dr
Unless there is a massive and sudden cultural shift, immigration won't work the same way to solve economic problems for core European countries as it does for "immigrant" countries like Canada/Australia/US.

[reeshau]

.

I just have to pick up on this. Yes, "a car," not cars, plural.  That's the point.

Yup, France has ~half as many vehicles per capita as the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita.

reeshau does it mean americans own more than one car per person?
Because in France when I say almost everyone has a car I mean almost everyone. A couple will own 2 cars. If they have kids, the kids generally will have a car once they're 18 also. etc...
I might misinterpret but to me it means you guys simply buy too much cars, it's not like french people could not afford cars lol.

Why less vehicles per Capita? Something very different between the States and Europe is that our cities were made for humans while yours seem to be made for cars.
In Paris (french capital) you either walk or take the very performant public transports to everywhere - having a car if you live there is a waste of money and time.
I live in Lyon, #3 biggest city in France and I walk everywhere, we have public bikes that we pay nothing for (I pay 40$ a year to ride bikes in the city, I can take one anywhere, deposit anywhere... I don't have to maintain it, it's incredible)... I'll sometimes take the subway and my ride will be < 20 minutes every time.

So what I wanted to say is that we have far much cars than we need in France.

realG,
I did not mean at all to say the US situation is better.  But yes, more than one car per person is common: you have your "daily driver" for commuting to work (due to no public transport available, taking a multiple of your driving time, or a stigma to using it) and then you have your fun / family vehicle: a sports car, a large pickup truck, an RV, or an SUV to fit the whole family comfortably.

I do not dispute anything you say; it is ridiculous, and yet it is also difficult for individuals to change.  As we have settled in Houston, we see many large pickups in people's driveway, even when they have a garage.  That's because the pickup is jacked up so high for off-road performance (Which 99% of people will never utilize) that the truck literally won't fit in the garage--it is taller than the door.

We did find a neighborhood, even here, that is pretty walkable.

[bigblock440]

snip

I just have to pick up on this. Yes, "a car," not cars, plural.  That's the point.

Yup, France has ~half as many vehicles per capita as the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita.

reeshau does it mean americans own more than one car per person?
Because in France when I say almost everyone has a car I mean almost everyone. A couple will own 2 cars. If they have kids, the kids generally will have a car once they're 18 also. etc...
I might misinterpret but to me it means you guys simply buy too much cars, it's not like french people could not afford cars lol.
snip

Yes, many Americans own more than one car.  I have 4, not counting the 1 my wife has.  My friend and his wife also have 5 between them, my parents have 3, all of my siblings and spouses have 3, another of my single friends has 2, that's not exactly uncommon here.  Then you get into the "collectors".

[ctuser1]

snip

I just have to pick up on this. Yes, "a car," not cars, plural.  That's the point.

Yup, France has ~half as many vehicles per capita as the USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita.

reeshau does it mean americans own more than one car per person?
Because in France when I say almost everyone has a car I mean almost everyone. A couple will own 2 cars. If they have kids, the kids generally will have a car once they're 18 also. etc...
I might misinterpret but to me it means you guys simply buy too much cars, it's not like french people could not afford cars lol.
snip

Yes, many Americans own more than one car.  I have 4, not counting the 1 my wife has.  My friend and his wife also have 5 between them, my parents have 3, all of my siblings and spouses have 3, another of my single friends has 2, that's not exactly uncommon here.  Then you get into the "collectors".

+1

We were two drivers (DW and I) and 3 cars for 13 years, even through the time we lived in an apartment. This was even when I commuted by train.

I only got rid of the 3rd car when it died last year.

Such a wasteful and yet quintessentially American habit!!

[Shane]

Our next door neighbor lives alone, and he's got two cars and a pickup truck - for just one person...

[Sibley]

9.  Long term, Europeans are screwed economically because their birthrates have plummeted. Aging and dying populations aren't growing their economies.  The US is heading down the same path but maybe 20-30 years later.   

I read an article recently that was reporting that based on birth rates, by 2100 most of the world would have decreased in population, some by up to 50%. It's not just Europe. China, Japan, India, etc have declining birthrates. Only immigration would really help. Africa I believe was projected to have a population increase.

[Shane]

9.  Long term, Europeans are screwed economically because their birthrates have plummeted. Aging and dying populations aren't growing their economies.  The US is heading down the same path but maybe 20-30 years later.   

I read an article recently that was reporting that based on birth rates, by 2100 most of the world would have decreased in population, some by up to 50%. It's not just Europe. China, Japan, India, etc have declining birthrates. Only immigration would really help. Africa I believe was projected to have a population increase.

One can only hope it turns out to be true that the human population of Earth will go down by 50%. Things just can't continue the way they've been.

[trollwithamustache]

There is the self defense issue: Europe is F&%^ed when Putin decides to go tank driving.  The anti-US and anti US as the world's policeman is amusing to a continent that is so depended on another country for their freedom.

But, you guys also use much less High Fructose Corn Starch, so maybe in 5 or 6 generations you guys will be the only non-trogeldytes out there.

[PDXTabs]

Europe is F&%^ed when Putin decides to go tank driving.

Are they?
EU GDP: ~20.5T, Russia GDP: ~1.7T USD.
EU population: ~445M, Russia population: ~147M

That doesn't even include any support from the non-EU nations in eastern Europe.

It would be ugly, but: 1. I don't think that it will happen and 2. Europe would eventually win.

[Cassie]

We have been to Europe 5x’s and have really enjoyed it. My DIL is from Poland and prefers it here. She needed brain surgery due to a huge tumor and no one in her country could have done it. In fact only a few doctors in the states do it.  A boy in Poland with the same condition has a go fund me account to come to the states for the surgery. It cost almost a million dollars.

[Plina]

Being a european I would guess the view of were Europe is headed is dependent on your country of reference. I would be more worried about EU then Europe. Coming from one of those countries that are supposed to pay for the party, we are having some grumbling about paying the bill for the southern countries as well as problems with the polish and hungarian view of democracy. Poland is also problematic from an environmental perspective. If the french are complaining about a retirement age of 60 we have just upped the age to 62 and it will be further increased. Most of the people will not be happy to work until 68 if they are paying for earlier retirement in southern Europe. So there is a need of a shape up in the EU bureacracy.

I guess standard of living is in the eyes of the beholder. Personally, I prefer to live without a car and find it a significantly decrease of quality of life to be dependent on a car. I prefer to walk, bike and take public transportation. That is why I liked visiting New York, Boston and Key west, while the rest of Florida proved to be an annoyance with the car dependency. I am always looking for a city center that does not exist.

The pandemic  actually made me appreciate our system more. People are not dependent on an employer for health insurance and because of the employment benefits most of the people can deal with losing their jobs pretty ok. What happens after the pandemic with the health care system is worrisome but if it is life threathening you will get your care. I am not that happy with our politicians but if you compare them on the crappy scale with their foreign competition, they are pretty ok.

Different countries have different problem and even if I see benefits with the EU, I think they have some work to do if they want to keep their members.

When it comes to business, US have a lot of tech companies but stuff like banking and industry seems to be behind many european countries. The environmental aspects of business seems also to be behind many european countries.

[Catica]

We have been to Europe 5x’s and have really enjoyed it. My DIL is from Poland and prefers it here. She needed brain surgery due to a huge tumor and no one in her country could have done it. In fact only a few doctors in the states do it.  A boy in Poland with the same condition has a go fund me account to come to the states for the surgery. It cost almost a million dollars.

How can a surgery cost almost a million dollars?  What kind of sick and predatious system is this?  There you go, here is a proof of a metric of completely dysfunctional society. The people billing for that kind of money brake the hippocratic oath.  We don't have healthcare, we have profitcare only, and colossally unethical one.  Do they travel to Jupiter to get some ultra rare mineral to perform that surgery?

[trollwithamustache]

Europe is F&%^ed when Putin decides to go tank driving.

Are they?
EU GDP: ~20.5T, Russia GDP: ~1.7T USD.
EU population: ~445M, Russia population: ~147M

That doesn't even include any support from the non-EU nations in eastern Europe.

It would be ugly, but: 1. I don't think that it will happen and 2. Europe would eventually win.

can you really fight the first year of a war with GDP?

[PDXTabs]

can you really fight the first year of a war with GDP?

Can Russia really make it all the way to Dublin in one year? Even if they could, could they hold their territorial gains?

[scottish]

Europe is F&%^ed when Putin decides to go tank driving.

Are they?
EU GDP: ~20.5T, Russia GDP: ~1.7T USD.
EU population: ~445M, Russia population: ~147M

That doesn't even include any support from the non-EU nations in eastern Europe.

It would be ugly, but: 1. I don't think that it will happen and 2. Europe would eventually win.

can you really fight the first year of a war with GDP?

That's how you Americans won WWII after all.

[reeshau]

I guess standard of living is in the eyes of the beholder. Personally, I prefer to live without a car and find it a significantly decrease of quality of life to be dependent on a car. I prefer to walk, bike and take public transportation.

I think this is really the issue of transportation, in a nutshell.  If your life and your city is arranged around either way, it is not just "fine," but great--preferrable.

Besides simple over-consumption, there are two things that drive the US away from public transportation and toward cars:  the distances involved (I can cross Houston in about the time I can cross Ireland) and the relative climates:  there are significant parts of the US that have high heat and humidity in the summer, or extreme cold and snow in the winter.  Some places have both.  If Dublin had the climate of either Detroit or Houston, I would have had a lot harder time being without a car.  Same for size:  Detroit proper is bigger than the whole Dublin metro area.  The City of Houston is 5x the Dublin metro area; Houston's metro area is 9x Dublin's.  The Detroit metro area is more than 30x the size of Dublin's metro area.

[ctuser1]

I guess standard of living is in the eyes of the beholder. Personally, I prefer to live without a car and find it a significantly decrease of quality of life to be dependent on a car. I prefer to walk, bike and take public transportation. That is why I liked visiting New York, Boston and Key west, while the rest of Florida proved to be an annoyance with the car dependency. I am always looking for a city center that does not exist.

Agreed. I dislike the car dependent aspect of the US cities/towns. I'd much prefer walkable places.

[alsoknownasDean]

I guess standard of living is in the eyes of the beholder. Personally, I prefer to live without a car and find it a significantly decrease of quality of life to be dependent on a car. I prefer to walk, bike and take public transportation.

I think this is really the issue of transportation, in a nutshell.  If your life and your city is arranged around either way, it is not just "fine," but great--preferrable.

Besides simple over-consumption, there are two things that drive the US away from public transportation and toward cars:  the distances involved (I can cross Houston in about the time I can cross Ireland) and the relative climates:  there are significant parts of the US that have high heat and humidity in the summer, or extreme cold and snow in the winter.  Some places have both.  If Dublin had the climate of either Detroit or Houston, I would have had a lot harder time being without a car.  Same for size:  Detroit proper is bigger than the whole Dublin metro area.  The City of Houston is 5x the Dublin metro area; Houston's metro area is 9x Dublin's.  The Detroit metro area is more than 30x the size of Dublin's metro area.

How much of Houston was built after car ownership became commonplace? Decades of car-oriented low density development is going to influence transport choices, and retrofitting a convenient mass transit system to cities like that is going to be difficult and expensive.

[LWYRUP]

9.  Long term, Europeans are screwed economically because their birthrates have plummeted. Aging and dying populations aren't growing their economies.  The US is heading down the same path but maybe 20-30 years later.   

I read an article recently that was reporting that based on birth rates, by 2100 most of the world would have decreased in population, some by up to 50%. It's not just Europe. China, Japan, India, etc have declining birthrates. Only immigration would really help. Africa I believe was projected to have a population increase.

One can only hope it turns out to be true that the human population of Earth will go down by 50%. Things just can't continue the way they've been.

A massive decrease in population would be potentially destabilizing.  A moderately declining population coupled with significant advances in sustainable development and sustainable management of resources would be ideal.

[HenryDavid]

Living in Europe roughly half time for the past several years, I see the place as more balanced between community interests, and private profit seeking. For now.

Around the world, ferocious energy is being put into wrecking this balance where it exists. The aim is for everyone to be entirely prey to “the market” i.e. unregulated corporations. Europe, so far, resists that more than Canada, where I live the rest of the time. Canada seems sort of midway between Europe and the US.
But every year it changes. . .