Author Topic: The best exercise frequency  (Read 12517 times)

directionseeker

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The best exercise frequency
« on: March 25, 2013, 09:35:22 PM »
I am joining the 100 push up challenge in the other section of this forum. It has been few weeks now and my push up number has gone up from 10++ to 40 now.

Ohe thing I noticed is when I "try" too hard, doing workout everyday, my result tends to suffer. But if I rest for too many days, the momentum just fade away. Currently I am settled at exercise every other day, work hard really hard one day, rest the next day, then repeat the cycle.

I am wondering how you guy plan your workout and what is the result for you so far?

Jamesqf

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 10:02:36 PM »
The every other day for strength exercises is pretty much standard.  If you want to get more intense, you could work upper body one day, lower body the next, or do aerobic excercise or stretching on the alternate days.

directionseeker

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 10:59:00 PM »
Now I combine everything in one workout. My routine is 400m of sprint (as fast as I can), 30 push ups, 100 squat with just body weight and I repeat this routine 3 times.

Once in a while I go for a run of 2-3km.

mm31

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 11:45:57 PM »
Whatever you do, it's important to establish a routine.You're pretty much doing what I've been doing, working out hard one day and resting the other. I've been having trouble re-establishing  my routine lately, I always seem to slip up during the winter.

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The best exercise frequency
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2013, 03:54:30 AM »
If you just want to be able to punch out 100 push-ups, then every second day is fine.

You might also want to consider doing knee push ups every now and then to train your arm muscles for endurance. If you can do 40 conventional push ups, then you should be able to do 70-80 knee push ups. This will get your muscles used to the increased number long before they are strong enough for the full 100.

You might also like to do push ups with increased weight on your back. That way when you drop the weight, conventional push ups become easier.

All the best, and remember to have fun.


In terms of maintaining an exercise habit, I find mixing things up a little works best so you don't plateau and get bored.

tuyop

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 06:29:37 AM »
Your training frequency depends on your goals. If you want to build strength (and size, to a lesser extent), then you should focus on exercising less often.

Most strength-training workouts recommend a maximum of four training sessions per week, with three being just right for most people: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Program

However, when doing long endurance work or circuit training, metabolic conditioning comes into play. Your body's energy systems have to be efficient enough to supply your muscles with fuel through all of the 100 reps of pushups.

If you just want to be able to punch out 100 push-ups, then every second day is fine.

You might also want to consider doing knee push ups every now and then to train your arm muscles for endurance. If you can do 40 conventional push ups, then you should be able to do 70-80 knee push ups. This will get your muscles used to the increased number long before they are strong enough for the full 100.

What? Why would you have anyone do knee pushups? I think that's a way to work on metabolic conditioning, but in that case why wouldn't you just do light bench presses or incline pushups?

One thing that you might find valuable is doing 1-5 rep max bench presses, or weighted pushups (like band pushups) for a low rep range since muscular endurance is just a function of muscular strength. As you increase your pushup strength, your endurance will also go up.

So, if you're a 200 pound male and you can currently do 5, 35-pound weighted pushups, work on your weighted pushups until you can do 5, 70-pound weighted pushups (or whatever), and you will find that your max rep unweighted pushup performance will increase dramatically. No silly knee pushups required!

GuitarStv

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 07:32:19 AM »
You don't develop strength or endurance when you're exercising.  Exercise damages the muscles that you're using.  This damage then forces your body to rebuild the muscles while you're recovering (resting - sleeping/days off).  Your body doesn't want to rebuild the muscles to the same strength level as before, because the muscles were damaged at that level so your body will build them slightly stronger.  This is why formal strength training routines tend to follow a day on-day off approach, or split days between muscle groups.

If you're not getting enough time between workouts, your body will not have time to rebuild your muscles to a stronger level.  The part where it gets tricky is . . . the amount of time that you need to rest to recover depends on your age, your diet, and your activity level.  Typically when you start a new exercise routine you can recover very quickly because you fatigue very quickly.  As you get more conditioned it becomes harder to fatigue your muscles.  As it takes longer to fatigue your muscles, it also takes longer to recover them.

The more time that you spend working out, the better you'll get to know the signs of being overtired/overtrained, and the easier it will be to know when you need rest.  Nobody can tell you exactly what that point is though, as it's specific to you and your body.

Vilx-

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 07:47:03 AM »
+1 for that! It's also been nicely written in this article, which I already posted in another, unrelated thread.

From that I've also formed my own conjecture on how to calibrate the interval: First, keep meticulous records of how much you can do. And then:
  • If you keep getting weaker, your interval is too short;
  • If there is no change, your interval is too long;
  • If you keep getting stronger, it's just right!
Of course, other factors can affect your performance too, so better look at the average performance over a longer amount of time (a week or two, I think, should be good).

But the every-other-day pattern seems to be very popular too, so I'd guess that for most people it should be fine, and only on the extremes of the fitness scale (very weak/very strong) there could be any serious deviations from this.

Crash87

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2013, 04:48:43 PM »
As your fitness level increases, it takes more and more time to improve.

I've become partial to the wendler 5x3x1 program for strength gains. Maybe look into that?

LizzyBee

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2013, 06:13:16 PM »
+1 for that! It's also been nicely written in this article, which I already posted in another, unrelated thread.

From that I've also formed my own conjecture on how to calibrate the interval: First, keep meticulous records of how much you can do. And then:
  • If you keep getting weaker, your interval is too short;
  • If there is no change, your interval is too long;
  • If you keep getting stronger, it's just right!
Of course, other factors can affect your performance too, so better look at the average performance over a longer amount of time (a week or two, I think, should be good).

But the every-other-day pattern seems to be very popular too, so I'd guess that for most people it should be fine, and only on the extremes of the fitness scale (very weak/very strong) there could be any serious deviations from this.

Wow! I just read your article. I'm am not a weight lifter by any means, but I did take Strength Training for Women in high school with my cousin. We would work out at the local gym and we'd be the only females doing cleans, squats (with a bar, not a ball), and the bench press. Many years later, after just having a baby, I want to get in shape the right way by building both my strength and endurance. Your article was well-written, informative and inspiring. I can't wait to start my strength routine.

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2013, 07:55:09 PM »
As your fitness level increases, it takes more and more time to improve.

I've become partial to the wendler 5x3x1 program for strength gains. Maybe look into that?

I've been doing 531 since December, it's been pretty great so far.  I think it benefits 'more advanced' people than beginners.  For beginners, basically any non-retarded linear periodization will work, your basic Starting Strengths, Madcow 5x5/Texas Method, Hypertrophy-Specific-Training, Brawn, Westside variants, Greyskull, etc etc etc.  There are so many, just pick one that you like.

I agree with tuyop with his argument for building strength in order to increase muscular endurance.  When I was in the military, I easily maxed pushups and situps just because I benched/dipped a lot, and did weighted abs.  I think in recent years even crossfitters have been coming around to the idea that stronger people do better at crossfit workouts, too.


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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2013, 09:56:05 PM »
I believe you need more rest when starting an new activity that stimulates muscle groups differently.

Case in point: I have been dragged to Crossfit twice so far, and it's taken me 4 days each time to fully recover. On the other hand, I can do back to back 2-hour swims (4-5 miles each) and it would barely register. You would think crossfit and swimming are quite similar in terms of muscle activity, but it sure doesn't feel lke it is at my current level. I've also met experienced runners who clock sub 2:50 marathons and blow up on gentle rolling hills when cycling.

Bottom line is to listen to your body and find the sweet spot between wimp and nutjob.

Shandi76

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 06:03:20 AM »
+1 for that! It's also been nicely written in this article, which I already posted in another, unrelated thread.


I thought that was a great article. Thanks for posting it Vilx.

tuyop

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2013, 07:12:18 AM »
I believe you need more rest when starting an new activity that stimulates muscle groups differently.

Case in point: I have been dragged to Crossfit twice so far, and it's taken me 4 days each time to fully recover. On the other hand, I can do back to back 2-hour swims (4-5 miles each) and it would barely register. You would think crossfit and swimming are quite similar in terms of muscle activity, but it sure doesn't feel lke it is at my current level. I've also met experienced runners who clock sub 2:50 marathons and blow up on gentle rolling hills when cycling.

Bottom line is to listen to your body and find the sweet spot between wimp and nutjob.

Depending on the workouts that you did, crossfit is going to work entirely different "muscle activities" (anaerobic endurance, usually) than swimming for two hours (aerobic, totally). But good for you for identifying a weakness in your fitness and doing something about it!

For reference:



ATP store system: your 1RM powerlifts or anything else that takes you less than 2 seconds to do.
ATP-CP (aka anaerobic power) System: 50-100m sprints, 3-5RM powerlifts, anything else that takes you less than 10 seconds to do.
Lactic Acid (aka anaerobic endurance) System: 400m run, most circuit training, anything else that takes less than 2 minutes to do.
Aerobic System: 5k runs, anything over 2 minutes

GuitarStv

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 09:01:21 AM »
+1 for that! It's also been nicely written in this article, which I already posted in another, unrelated thread.

That's a great article, and completely in line with everything that I've experienced regarding strength training!

MountainMan

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 12:36:28 PM »
I use the "Convict Conditioning" book for bodyweight exercises.  (Unfortunate book title, perhaps, but the exercises work.)  It uses graduations of exercises to reach more hardcore strength levels.  For example, Pushups start out as Wall Pushups and eventually graduate to the seriously hardcore One-Arm Pushup.

My exercise routine looks like this:

Monday: Pushups and Leg Raises (stomach crunch alternative)

Tuesday: 30-60 minutes walking/running/biking

Wednesday: Pullups and Squats

Thursday: 30-60 minutes walking/running/biking

Friday: Bridges and Headstand Pushups (which I replace with overhead heavy-object presses since I'm too overweight for any sort of headstand at this point)

Saturday: 30-60 minutes walking/running/biking


If I had a bicycling commuter or shopping route, I would not bother with the extra aerobic exercise.

It is possible I could get the same exercises in several more times a week, but it would hamper rest and recovery times.  It is enough for me that I add more reps each week (eventually adding more sets and graduating to the next permutation of the exercise) since it is a continual gain in strength.  I don't have to be in a hurry about it. 

I also have to lose weight to be able to do the tougher permutations of the exercises, so I am cutting a few calories each day (200-400 calories) until I get down to my desired weight. 

tuyop

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2013, 01:29:09 PM »
I use the "Convict Conditioning" book for bodyweight exercises.  (Unfortunate book title, perhaps, but the exercises work.)  It uses graduations of exercises to reach more hardcore strength levels.  For example, Pushups start out as Wall Pushups and eventually graduate to the seriously hardcore One-Arm Pushup.

My exercise routine looks like this:

Monday: Pushups and Leg Raises (stomach crunch alternative)

Tuesday: 30-60 minutes walking/running/biking

Wednesday: Pullups and Squats

Thursday: 30-60 minutes walking/running/biking

Friday: Bridges and Headstand Pushups (which I replace with overhead heavy-object presses since I'm too overweight for any sort of headstand at this point)

Saturday: 30-60 minutes walking/running/biking


If I had a bicycling commuter or shopping route, I would not bother with the extra aerobic exercise.

It is possible I could get the same exercises in several more times a week, but it would hamper rest and recovery times.  It is enough for me that I add more reps each week (eventually adding more sets and graduating to the next permutation of the exercise) since it is a continual gain in strength.  I don't have to be in a hurry about it. 

I also have to lose weight to be able to do the tougher permutations of the exercises, so I am cutting a few calories each day (200-400 calories) until I get down to my desired weight.

Without knowing very much about you, I would say you need to stop all that stuff and go with a strict barbell training program. Start here: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Program#Three_Flavors_of_Starting_Strength

I'm assuming that your goals are:

Lose fat, become stronger, look and feel better, and improve your health.

If they are, then barbell strength training is the most efficient way to achieve all of those goals, and the only serious way to achieve the second one.

"There is simply no other exercise, and certainly no machine, that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strength, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning than the correctly performed full squat."
-- Mark Rippetoe

TLV

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2013, 01:58:07 PM »
I briefly tried the Starting Strength barbell program last year. About a month or so into it (and barely lifting over 100 lbs) I pinched a disk in my back and had to go through months of painful recovery.

Obviously I was doing something wrong, but I don't know what and I'm afraid to try it again, so I'm sticking with body-weight exercises for now.

tuyop

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2013, 02:18:11 PM »
I briefly tried the Starting Strength barbell program last year. About a month or so into it (and barely lifting over 100 lbs) I pinched a disk in my back and had to go through months of painful recovery.

Obviously I was doing something wrong, but I don't know what and I'm afraid to try it again, so I'm sticking with body-weight exercises for now.

Bro, I was in a training accident in the military in 2010. I was carrying a rocket launcher, grenade launcher and three days worth of ammunition and food - totalling about 150 pounds when you account for body armour - on a night patrol. I fell in a hole and caused a lateral shift injury in my thoracic spine, which irreparably damaged two disks in my back so that now I have chronic pain and mobility issues. I spent four months in traction and couldn't open doors or run without very serious pain and spasms, and my military career is over because of it.

However, over the past three years, and several reinjuries, I now bench 225x5, deadlift 385x5, and squat 275x5. I'm a 6' 180lb male. With even more awful work and recovery I can now run a sub-19 minute 5k, swim 750m in 20 minutes (I just learned in October), and bike 200 miles a week while still lifting.

Injury is a huge bummer, but I'm a wuss compared to people who do 100 mile trail runs with no legs, lift 400+ pounds with one maimed and useless arm, and the like. Don't be scared, if you're worried about form, film yourself and post a video here. There are tons of swole brothers on this forum who will give you hot tips on your form.

Vilx-

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2013, 02:56:01 PM »
I just read your article.
Umm, in case I didn't write clearly, it's not my article. I didn't write it, I just found it on the web. :P

MountainMan

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2013, 06:33:35 PM »
Without knowing very much about you, I would say you need to stop all that stuff and go with a strict barbell training program. Start here: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Program#Three_Flavors_of_Starting_Strength

That is correct.  You do not know very much about me. :)

I also do not know anything about you or your expertise.

I have spinal injuries that I need to be careful of.  I used to do barbell squats, but I won't anymore.  I don't feel that I need to with bodyweight exercises.  Gaining strength and mastery over my own body using my own bodyweight is possible, and it is good enough for me.

There is enough evidence to show the effectiveness of bodyweight exercises and I will continue with this method.

Additionally, it is quite Mustachian and minimalist, since it requires little to no equipment, and no gym fees.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 06:42:27 PM by MountainMan »

MountainMan

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2013, 06:38:53 PM »
I briefly tried the Starting Strength barbell program last year. About a month or so into it (and barely lifting over 100 lbs) I pinched a disk in my back and had to go through months of painful recovery.

Obviously I was doing something wrong, but I don't know what and I'm afraid to try it again, so I'm sticking with body-weight exercises for now.

Bro, I was in a training accident in the military in 2010. I was carrying a rocket launcher, grenade launcher and three days worth of ammunition and food - totalling about 150 pounds when you account for body armour - on a night patrol. I fell in a hole and caused a lateral shift injury in my thoracic spine, which irreparably damaged two disks in my back so that now I have chronic pain and mobility issues. I spent four months in traction and couldn't open doors or run without very serious pain and spasms, and my military career is over because of it.

However, over the past three years, and several reinjuries, I now bench 225x5, deadlift 385x5, and squat 275x5. I'm a 6' 180lb male. With even more awful work and recovery I can now run a sub-19 minute 5k, swim 750m in 20 minutes (I just learned in October), and bike 200 miles a week while still lifting.

Injury is a huge bummer, but I'm a wuss compared to people who do 100 mile trail runs with no legs, lift 400+ pounds with one maimed and useless arm, and the like. Don't be scared, if you're worried about form, film yourself and post a video here. There are tons of swole brothers on this forum who will give you hot tips on your form.

That's really good work and very impressive that you've managed that level of ongoing recovery.

GuitarStv

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2013, 06:30:18 AM »
I briefly tried the Starting Strength barbell program last year. About a month or so into it (and barely lifting over 100 lbs) I pinched a disk in my back and had to go through months of painful recovery.

Obviously I was doing something wrong, but I don't know what and I'm afraid to try it again, so I'm sticking with body-weight exercises for now.

What exercise did you pinch the disk on?

Injuries from weight lifting tend to come from one of two reasons:
- Lifting too heavy without warming up
- Bad form

You have to start SS very very very light (almost nobody does this correctly when they start - me included).  The first couple weeks you shouldn't really feel challenged at all . . . they're all about building correct form and laying the foundation for the growth that will come.  It might also help to have someone more experienced watch what you're doing and make sure that your form is correct for a couple sessions.  Little tiny things can seem unimportant at lower weights, and make a huge difference when you start lifting heavier.

tuyop

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2013, 06:46:11 AM »
I feel like we should start a mustachian weightlifting thread, next week I'm moving from a Westside program to the 5/3/1 and I feel like marking the occasion somehow.

Shandi76

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2013, 06:57:14 AM »
A weightlifting thread in the Off Topic board would be great :-)

I'm doing something like 5/3/1 for my strength work at Cross Fit, but at the moment I'm mostly focused on trying to improve my form and fix some mobility issues before increasing the weights.

TLV

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2013, 05:19:51 PM »
I briefly tried the Starting Strength barbell program last year. About a month or so into it (and barely lifting over 100 lbs) I pinched a disk in my back and had to go through months of painful recovery.

Obviously I was doing something wrong, but I don't know what and I'm afraid to try it again, so I'm sticking with body-weight exercises for now.

What exercise did you pinch the disk on?

Injuries from weight lifting tend to come from one of two reasons:
- Lifting too heavy without warming up
- Bad form

You have to start SS very very very light (almost nobody does this correctly when they start - me included).  The first couple weeks you shouldn't really feel challenged at all . . . they're all about building correct form and laying the foundation for the growth that will come.  It might also help to have someone more experienced watch what you're doing and make sure that your form is correct for a couple sessions.  Little tiny things can seem unimportant at lower weights, and make a huge difference when you start lifting heavier.

I don't know which exercise it was, because I didn't feel anything when it happened; I just noticed some pain on the off days, which grew worse over time even though I stopped lifting soon after noticing it. I started with the empty bar, and had only made it to ~110 lbs deadlift (less for the others) and wasn't feeling really challenged yet, so it was probably something form related. I'm not ready to try barbells again yet, but I'll definitely seek some feedback about form when I do.

directionseeker

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2013, 11:15:28 AM »
It seems this topic has taken its own path and develop into a pretty informative forum posting. I am surprise to see so many advice and information given after away from this posting for quite a while.

tuyop

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2013, 11:36:15 AM »
A weightlifting thread in the Off Topic board would be great :-)

I'm doing something like 5/3/1 for my strength work at Cross Fit, but at the moment I'm mostly focused on trying to improve my form and fix some mobility issues before increasing the weights.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/the-fitness-megathread/

tylerherman

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2013, 05:26:33 PM »
Rest matters but every muscle is different. You should be able to do pushups to exhaustion multiple times a day. No need to take any days off. Look at people in the military, they can knock out 100 without any effort at all. The more you do, the more you push yourself, the faster you'll be able to get to 100.

If you're dong weight training to build muscle it's another story.

tuyop

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Re: The best exercise frequency
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2013, 06:21:40 PM »
Rest matters but every muscle is different. You should be able to do pushups to exhaustion multiple times a day. No need to take any days off. Look at people in the military, they can knock out 100 without any effort at all. The more you do, the more you push yourself, the faster you'll be able to get to 100.

If you're dong weight training to build muscle it's another story.

Not only as a person in the military, but a person in the infantry, this is just totally untrue. People in the military cannot knock out 100 pushups without any effort at all. You may have one person per battalion (~600 people) who can do 100 pushups in a row, with a "very fit" number of pushups being anything >60. About 10% of the population of an infantry unit will be able to bang out 60 or more pushups, with 80-100 being very rare. Most people in non-combat arms units or like, the armoured corps, can barely do a respectable 20 pushups to keep their jobs. 100 pushups in a row is an impressive feat regardless of your job.

Your point about adaptation is correct, though. If you do enough pushups, eventually you will be able to do many pushups.