Author Topic: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?  (Read 47286 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #450 on: September 29, 2020, 01:20:53 PM »
I can't quote all of you, but here's the deal...

If you live in an urban area, yes, walk, ride a bike, whatever you want.

But *97%**** of the country is rural!! Source: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2017/08/rural-america.html#:~:text=Urban%20areas%20make%20up%20only,Census%20Bureau%20%2D%20Opens%20as%20PDF.

I don't even live in a rural area, more like a suburb, but for work I drive about 20 minutes each way. I don't have time to ride a bike there, and no government is going to build a hyper speed rail from my smallish (but relatively high income) town to the major manufacturing area where I work as an engineer.

It just doesn't make sense.

You need to think about situations other than your own. I'm doing that: I think riding your bike is GREAT - if you live in the right area and it won't take you over an hour to get to work. This is so simple to understand.

MMM would tell you to move in that situation. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/28/get-rich-with-moving-to-a-better-place/

Also, 97% of the land mass may be rural, but in America 80% of the population lives in urban settings. And of people who live in truly rural places, a good chunk of them are farmers, so commuting would also be less of a thing for them.

Yep.  From the very article that tyler posted:

Quote
97 percent of the country’s land mass is rural but only 19.3 percent of the population lives there.

Less than one in five people in the US live in a rural area.  The problem of living in a suburb extremely far away from where you work is an issue that MMM has covered many times on his blog.

Zikoris

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #451 on: September 29, 2020, 03:06:47 PM »
Sigh. Y'all aren't listening to what I'm saying.

You don't need to live in a rural area to need to drive. I live in a medium-small town with a per capita income over $100,000. It's like a "suburb" or "satellite city."

But there are huge expanses of space between towns and cities.

I live in Texas. Texas is BIG.

If you don't understand that, then you will not comprehend anything else that I have to say. Maybe y'all aren't open to thinking beyond your own personal situation. If I lived where you live, then yes, I would probably drive a lot less - but my point is that it is a necessity.

To tell people they should just "move" is asinine and flippant as well. Maybe you work somewhere without houses and apartments - again, you wouldn't understand this, but you can't just move next door to the refinery, plant, or factory if there are no neighborhoods.

Spend some time in Texas and you'll see how ridiculous this discussion is.


And yet people move all the time and change jobs all the time for tons of reasons, very often related to commuting. We're not just making this up, actual people are doing this stuff every day to improve their lives and finances.

I'm not telling anyone they "should" do this or that, just that driving is not some unavoidable thing, and if it's important to you to not drive, there are ways to set up your life to do that. For sure, you may have so far designed your life to center around driving, but the good news is your feet are not nailed down to the front porch at a particular address, and you're not in bondage to any particular company.

I think it's valuable to be brutally honest with yourself and not pretend things are set in stone unless they truly are. If you like your current setup and want to continue, by all means do so, but there's just no point lying to yourself that you don't have other options.

sherr

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #452 on: September 29, 2020, 03:08:33 PM »
I hope you don’t leave this thread feeling attacked as we are all want to do…
"Wont to do". Now you can feel attacked too. ;)

And I really don't get what Tyler is going on about. I don't see anyone hating car drivers or "being tyrannical" to the rural 20% or denying that Texas is large. They're simply enjoying and advocating for riding bikes, when it is practical.

Okay, so if it's not practical in your situation then don't do it. If it sometimes is, then enjoy. No minorities are being attacked here, and car drivers are certainly not a minority anyway.

nereo

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #453 on: September 29, 2020, 04:56:07 PM »
Sigh. Y'all aren't listening to what I'm saying.

Funny - I was thinking the same of you

You are “disagreeing” with something that no one here is actually arguing for (“get rid of cars”) - especially not Pete 

This a textbook example of gaslighting.


TomTX

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #454 on: September 29, 2020, 05:30:31 PM »
I live in Texas. Texas is BIG.

If you don't understand that, then you will not comprehend anything else that I have to say. Maybe y'all aren't open to thinking beyond your own personal situation. If I lived where you live, then yes, I would probably drive a lot less - but my point is that it is a necessity.

You seem super sensitive for a Texan.

Sure, I'd need a car or other motor vehicle to get to Dallas - but if the infrastructure were more focused on active transportation (bike, ped, scooter, etc) - I could get almost everywhere I need to go in town pretty conveniently on a bike. As it is, things are very car-centric, so it's more of a hassle than it should be.

AO1FireTo

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #455 on: September 30, 2020, 07:24:36 AM »
I live in Texas. Texas is BIG.

If you don't understand that, then you will not comprehend anything else that I have to say. Maybe y'all aren't open to thinking beyond your own personal situation. If I lived where you live, then yes, I would probably drive a lot less - but my point is that it is a necessity.
You seem super sensitive for a Texan.

And you seem awfully petty and rude for a Texan.

I don't think anyone here believes it's possible to eliminate the need for cars especially in the short term.  However, just because things are a certain way, doesn't mean that always has to be the case.  Lots of ways we can reduce our dependencies on cars.  Covid itself has shown that many of us don't need to travel each day for work.  The new cars today are ridiculously big and inefficient.  Better access to bike lanes, trails, dedicated roads, more efficient mass transit, etc. are all things we can change in the short term.  The whole design of cities needs to change, to make it less reliant on cars.  I get the rural argument and it makes it harder, but most people live in cities, let's start with the 80/20 principle.

nereo

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #456 on: September 30, 2020, 07:35:06 AM »
Forum member 'tylerguitar75' has switched his account name to 'deleteThisAccountPlease' mid-argument.

any reason why @deleteThisAccountPlease ?

sherr

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #457 on: September 30, 2020, 07:38:14 AM »
Forum member 'tylerguitar75' has switched his account name to 'deleteThisAccountPlease' mid-argument.

any reason why @deleteThisAccountPlease ?

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by tagging him and asking him this question? He's clearly rage-quitting the forum because people have the audacity to be happy about bicycling, and because he's not getting much sympathy about how discriminated against and trodden-upon the poor car drivers are. That is his right, let him go.

solon

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #458 on: September 30, 2020, 10:47:24 AM »
Forum member 'tylerguitar75' has switched his account name to 'deleteThisAccountPlease' mid-argument.

any reason why @deleteThisAccountPlease ?

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by tagging him and asking him this question? He's clearly rage-quitting the forum because people have the audacity to be happy about bicycling, and because he's not getting much sympathy about how discriminated against and trodden-upon the poor car drivers are. That is his right, let him go.

I think it has more to do with us not believing how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big Texas is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the rodeo, but that's just peanuts to Texas.

deborah

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #459 on: September 30, 2020, 10:58:16 AM »
Forum member 'tylerguitar75' has switched his account name to 'deleteThisAccountPlease' mid-argument.

any reason why @deleteThisAccountPlease ?

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by tagging him and asking him this question? He's clearly rage-quitting the forum because people have the audacity to be happy about bicycling, and because he's not getting much sympathy about how discriminated against and trodden-upon the poor car drivers are. That is his right, let him go.

I think it has more to do with us not believing how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big Texas is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the rodeo, but that's just peanuts to Texas.
Most states in Australia are bigger than Texas.

sherr

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #460 on: September 30, 2020, 11:01:13 AM »
Forum member 'tylerguitar75' has switched his account name to 'deleteThisAccountPlease' mid-argument.

any reason why @deleteThisAccountPlease ?

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by tagging him and asking him this question? He's clearly rage-quitting the forum because people have the audacity to be happy about bicycling, and because he's not getting much sympathy about how discriminated against and trodden-upon the poor car drivers are. That is his right, let him go.

I think it has more to do with us not believing how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big Texas is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the rodeo, but that's just peanuts to Texas.

If we had a "like" button I would always use it on HGTTG quotes.

talltexan

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #461 on: October 01, 2020, 08:26:15 AM »
Forum member 'tylerguitar75' has switched his account name to 'deleteThisAccountPlease' mid-argument.

any reason why @deleteThisAccountPlease ?

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by tagging him and asking him this question? He's clearly rage-quitting the forum because people have the audacity to be happy about bicycling, and because he's not getting much sympathy about how discriminated against and trodden-upon the poor car drivers are. That is his right, let him go.

I think it has more to do with us not believing how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big Texas is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the rodeo, but that's just peanuts to Texas.

Nice Douglas Adams allusion there.

I, also, have some experience growing up in Texas. When I joined the MMM community, I did become aware of certain friends of my family who:

1. had one car
2. biked to work
3. lived within walking distance of work

These things all reduced driving, even though there were 4-5 kids in these households. In at least one of the families, the husband also systematically invested in rental real estate all over town.


nereo

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #463 on: October 01, 2020, 12:34:25 PM »


I think it has more to do with us not believing how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big Texas is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the rodeo, but that's just peanuts to Texas.
Most states in Australia are bigger than Texas.
https://mapfight.appspot.com/queensland-vs-texas/queensland-australia-texas-size-comparison
https://mapfight.appspot.com/tasmania-vs-texas/tasmania-australia-texas-size-comparison
https://mapfight.appspot.com/victoria-vs-texas/victoria-australia-texas-size-comparison
https://mapfight.appspot.com/nsw.australia-vs-texas/new-south-wales-australia-texas-size-comparison
https://mapfight.appspot.com/south.australia-vs-texas/south-australia-australia-texas-size-comparison
https://mapfight.appspot.com/western.australia-vs-texas/western-australia-australia-texas-size-comparison

Yup.  Australia has almost the same number of people as Texas (29MM people), but is about as big as the lower-48 combined (~3MM square miles).

The lower total population (~9% of the US) and fewer states (6 vs 50) makes for much different dynamics. 

Just Joe

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #464 on: October 01, 2020, 01:02:07 PM »
MMM would tell you to move in that situation. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/28/get-rich-with-moving-to-a-better-place/

Also, 97% of the land mass may be rural, but in America 80% of the population lives in urban settings. And of people who live in truly rural places, a good chunk of them are farmers, so commuting would also be less of a thing for them.

You can have your cake and eat it too - plenty of rural space 5-10 minutes outside of smallish towns across the continent. We're perfectly able to ebike to town despite the steep hills when we like in ~45 minutes.

Absolutely beautiful sitting on the front porch drinking coffee this morn while the dog did her morning "patrol". Watched the fog on the fields, saw several deer including a young one we've watched grow all summer, not much noise and yet when it was time to do the school run and then to work - it was ~5 mins to school and another ~5 mins to work in the "aged" family car. Not Silicon Valley nor NYC but that's the point.

I wonder if suburbia will ever transform into series of villages which enable people to walk or bike more, drive less.  I for one left the city b/c DW and I don't like driving 40 miles to the mall and 40 miles a different direction to work on clogged arterial highways through varying weather and construction projects. 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2020, 01:15:41 PM by Just Joe »

Zikoris

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #465 on: October 01, 2020, 01:55:38 PM »
MMM would tell you to move in that situation. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/28/get-rich-with-moving-to-a-better-place/

Also, 97% of the land mass may be rural, but in America 80% of the population lives in urban settings. And of people who live in truly rural places, a good chunk of them are farmers, so commuting would also be less of a thing for them.

You can have your cake and eat it too - plenty of rural space 5-10 minutes outside of smallish towns across the continent. We're perfectly able to ebike to town despite the steep hills when we like in ~45 minutes.

Absolutely beautiful sitting on the front porch drinking coffee this morn while the dog did her morning "patrol". Watched the fog on the fields, saw several deer including a young one we've watched grow all summer, not much noise and yet when it was time to do the school run and then to work - it was ~5 mins to school and another ~5 mins to work in the "aged" family car. Not Silicon Valley nor NYC but that's the point.

I wonder if suburbia will ever transform into series of villages which enable people to walk or bike more, drive less.  I for one left the city b/c DW and I don't like driving 40 miles to the mall and 40 miles a different direction to work on clogged arterial highways through varying weather and construction projects.

Totally. I plan to move to a mostly car-less island after retirement. Getting into town is by boat, but not very far, and the docks are right in the downtown area. I can't wait to do my first grocery shop by kayak. Or get a water tricycle if I'm feeling fancy.

mizzourah2006

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #466 on: October 05, 2020, 08:29:54 AM »
Plenty of reasons why having a car is more convenient. I bike all the time, love biking, but I also have young children. So biking them to daycare and home with 2 working parents would add a significant amount of time to daily commutes given the good daycares aren't located near my wife's office. Plus I mountain bike as well as riding the greenway/gravel biking. So a car is a convenient way to get to the trails. Other options are to ride 8-10 miles each way on the greenway on a mountain bike, then actually mountain bike 10-15 miles or I guess you could be even more of a BA and somehow strap my mountain bike to my road bike via trailer drag it there, lock all that up, mountain bike and then drag it back. But even doing that would limit the trails I could ride to the one's within a 10-15 mile radius, which is just not fun :) I guess the way I see it is if your life simply revolves around work, and a small local community then it would be relatively easy to go car less in many places, but there are plenty of reasons people would prefer to have cars other than "laziness". I met up with friends at a brewery Saturday that was about 9 miles away and I biked to that, I probably average about 100-150 miles a month across greenway riding and mountain biking, so I wouldn't call myself lazy, lol. So two decent reasons IMO are hobbies that would require you to go more than 10-15 miles away from your home/office and kids. Even as they get older they have friends that live in other parts of town, sports, activities, etc. If you've managed to find a home that's within 10 miles of everything your kids will ever want to do you've hit the jackpot.

Imma

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #467 on: October 06, 2020, 06:36:55 AM »
@mizzourah2006 in many places there's also this thing called public transit that can get you to places that are too far to bike. You don't get that everywhere but you can choose to live in a place that has decent public transit. When we were looking for a house to buy, our main requirements were walking distance to a bus stop and railway station.

We live in a car unfriendly city so even most of my friends with kids bike a lot. They usually have cargo bikes to get young kids to their activities. Older kids ride their own bikes.

We don't have a car and I can't cycle long distances due to health issues. So I use the bus to get around in my area when I'm too tired to ride a bike, and I use the train to visit family and friends who are 50-100 km away.

ETA: not saying sometimes driving isn't more convenient or even the only feasible option, but it's not like it's a choice between driving and not leaving your town ever.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 06:39:27 AM by Imma »

nereo

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #468 on: October 06, 2020, 07:45:10 AM »
@mizzourah2006 in many places there's also this thing called public transit that can get you to places that are too far to bike. You don't get that everywhere but you can choose to live in a place that has decent public transit. When we were looking for a house to buy, our main requirements were walking distance to a bus stop and railway station.

We live in a car unfriendly city so even most of my friends with kids bike a lot. They usually have cargo bikes to get young kids to their activities. Older kids ride their own bikes.

We don't have a car and I can't cycle long distances due to health issues. So I use the bus to get around in my area when I'm too tired to ride a bike, and I use the train to visit family and friends who are 50-100 km away.

ETA: not saying sometimes driving isn't more convenient or even the only feasible option, but it's not like it's a choice between driving and not leaving your town ever.

It still shocks me how different cites can be with respect to public transit.  Some you can get almost anywhere quickly, safely and cheaply - while in other cities the transit system is woefully inadequate.

Another point to consider is car rental or car-share services.  If your daily needs do not require a car and you only need a vehicle a few times per month to go on trips or for large shopping runs, it's typically much cheaper to rent a car than own one yourself. In the last city I lived in the transit system was ok, but you could rent a car for $5/hr or $30/day (plus gasoline) with a pickup/dropoff location a block from my home.  We used it semi-frequently and took numerous daytrips, but our total cost was under $1k/year.  It was always clean, fueled up and ready, and we didn't have to worry about snow, registration or parking.

Point is... there's more of a spectrum than "own a car/always drive one" and "don't own a car/can't ever drive anywhere".

This also works just about everywhere for large trucks.  Very few people 'need' a truck every day, and for most renting a pickup (or van or moving truck) on the few occasions when you do need to cart large objects will save you a ton of money in the long term.

talltexan

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #469 on: October 07, 2020, 08:59:15 AM »
I lived car-free in the Chicago area for a few years. My imagination held me back, I could have had a much higher quality of life if I'd rented a car monthly.

Cool Friend

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #470 on: October 07, 2020, 10:07:09 AM »
Honestly, I regret prioritizing an imagined future happiness over living a life I actually want to live.

nereo

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #471 on: October 07, 2020, 10:16:40 AM »
Honestly, I regret prioritizing an imagined future happiness over living a life I actually want to live.

I'm pretty sure Pete would agree that this was not a good way of going about it:
Quote
Because the whole reason for doing any of this is to lead the happiest, most satisfying life you can possibly lead.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

Cool Friend

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #472 on: October 07, 2020, 10:24:32 AM »
Honestly, I regret prioritizing an imagined future happiness over living a life I actually want to live.

I'm pretty sure Pete would agree that this was not a good way of going about it:
Quote
Because the whole reason for doing any of this is to lead the happiest, most satisfying life you can possibly lead.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

Exactly, "lead to the happiest, most satisfying life."

nereo

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #473 on: October 07, 2020, 10:34:52 AM »
Honestly, I regret prioritizing an imagined future happiness over living a life I actually want to live.

I'm pretty sure Pete would agree that this was not a good way of going about it:
Quote
Because the whole reason for doing any of this is to lead the happiest, most satisfying life you can possibly lead.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

Exactly, "lead to the happiest, most satisfying life."

Yes.  So if your choices have resulted in decreased happiness even before FIRE, you should look closely at why.
A core goal is increasing happiness. 

Cool Friend

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #474 on: October 07, 2020, 10:41:25 AM »
Honestly, I regret prioritizing an imagined future happiness over living a life I actually want to live.

I'm pretty sure Pete would agree that this was not a good way of going about it:
Quote
Because the whole reason for doing any of this is to lead the happiest, most satisfying life you can possibly lead.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/23/not-extreme-frugality/

Exactly, "lead to the happiest, most satisfying life."

Yes.  So if your choices have resulted in decreased happiness even before FIRE, you should look closely at why.
A core goal is increasing happiness.

I think it's because my savings rate is built on living like a college student (multiple roommates, no vacations, frugal eating) while being well into my 30s. The minute I get my own Big Boy Apartment, my savings rate is going down to like 10%. But I think I would rather have peace and privacy now.

Zikoris

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #475 on: October 07, 2020, 11:22:12 AM »
Honestly, I regret prioritizing an imagined future happiness over living a life I actually want to live.

This is another great example in this thread of "I disagree with MMM because (insert something MMM never said, does, suggests, or believes)"

I find it pretty strange how many weird things people end up attributing to/blaming MMM that he has literally never told anyone to do.

Cool Friend

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #476 on: October 07, 2020, 11:32:19 AM »
Honestly, I regret prioritizing an imagined future happiness over living a life I actually want to live.

This is another great example in this thread of "I disagree with MMM because (insert something MMM never said, does, suggests, or believes)"

I find it pretty strange how many weird things people end up attributing to/blaming MMM that he has literally never told anyone to do.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking about my personal regrets; choices I made based on situations unique to me.

But I'm confused, I thought prioritizing saving for the future to lead to the happiest, most satisfying life was the main point?

sherr

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #477 on: October 07, 2020, 11:50:32 AM »
But I'm confused, I thought prioritizing saving for the future to lead to the happiest, most satisfying life was the main point?

I would summarize MMM's advice as "seriously examine how much of your spending actually makes you happy, and stop doing the rest. And save the difference so you can retire early and pursue your passions for the rest of your life."

He talks about Stoicism and Minimalism, but the point is never to be miserable now so that you can be happy later. Rather the point is to get rid of the unnecessary junk so that you can be happy both now and later.

Laura33

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #478 on: October 07, 2020, 11:51:03 AM »
But I'm confused, I thought prioritizing saving for the future to lead to the happiest, most satisfying life was the main point?

Not at the expense of making life miserable.  The idea is to maximize a sustainable savings rate that balances current lifestyle against future needs.  And to do so by challenging the actual value you get from things that society assumes we all "need," like cars and big houses and commutes.

It doesn't mean that you always make the cheapest choices possible and live the most frugal lifestyle that you can imagine.  It means recognizing that upgrading your lifestyle will require you spend more weeks/months/years working for a living, so you should do the math on all of those choices, figure out how much of your life that particular upgrade will cost you, and spend money on only those things that are actually worth the extra time out of your life. 

Cool Friend

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #479 on: October 07, 2020, 12:15:11 PM »
I think I understand better what you guys mean.

For me, in order to aggressively pay my student loans off the MMM way, I had to accept a lifestyle that I wasn't happy with. I ran the numbers, and living on my own wasn't possible unless I stopped paying them off. Please don't get me wrong, I'm glad I paid them off, it's a huge burden lifted. But I also sat on the sidelines of life for 4 years of my prime, and I regret that I had to do that to make it happen.

Zikoris

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #480 on: October 07, 2020, 12:34:30 PM »
Honestly, I regret prioritizing an imagined future happiness over living a life I actually want to live.

This is another great example in this thread of "I disagree with MMM because (insert something MMM never said, does, suggests, or believes)"

I find it pretty strange how many weird things people end up attributing to/blaming MMM that he has literally never told anyone to do.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking about my personal regrets; choices I made based on situations unique to me.

But I'm confused, I thought prioritizing saving for the future to lead to the happiest, most satisfying life was the main point?

Pretty close, but take the second "to" out of that last sentence. There's no leading "to" anything. You're supposed to live your best life NOW, then retire and ramp up the awesome even more.

I would also be super interested to see the numbers attached to this:

Quote
For me, in order to aggressively pay my student loans off the MMM way, I had to accept a lifestyle that I wasn't happy with. I ran the numbers, and living on my own wasn't possible unless I stopped paying them off. Please don't get me wrong, I'm glad I paid them off, it's a huge burden lifted. But I also sat on the sidelines of life for 4 years of my prime, and I regret that I had to do that to make it happen.

Because I would bet that if you'd done some creative thinking, it would have been possible to both pay off the loans and also have a kick-ass life at the same time. Just because SO MANY people here do that every day.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #481 on: October 07, 2020, 01:23:40 PM »
I think I understand better what you guys mean.

For me, in order to aggressively pay my student loans off the MMM way, I had to accept a lifestyle that I wasn't happy with. I ran the numbers, and living on my own wasn't possible unless I stopped paying them off. Please don't get me wrong, I'm glad I paid them off, it's a huge burden lifted. But I also sat on the sidelines of life for 4 years of my prime, and I regret that I had to do that to make it happen.

Two things here
1) as Pete would say, paying off debt is your previous self giving your current self the shaft.  It wasn't current you choosing to forgo life for future you... it was past you dumping this load on current you.  And I say this as half of a couple that had six-figures in combined SLs which we recently paid off in full, so I get where you are coming from.

2) your last sentence concerns me.  The fact that you feel like you had to sit "on the sidelines of life for 4 years of your prime" makes me think that your approach was deeply flawed.  We were broke grad students for a decade (masters than PhD) but neither of us ever felt like we sitting on the sidelines of life.  If anything, we had amazing experiences during out PhDs, living on meager stipends and making lots of headway on our loans. We were actually discussing how we felt our lives were more free adn adventerous when we earned half as much and logged 50% more hours in hte lab. We traveled more, too. Of course having a kid really changed that dynamic ;-P

what is it that makes you feel like you missed out on life?  I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the underlying problem wasn't money per se, but perhaps the stress it entailed and how you approached your social life.

I say all of these things not to pick on you - i'm just reading what you write and suspect there's some deeper underlying factors at play.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #482 on: October 07, 2020, 02:17:20 PM »
Dang, @nereo, great post. That last bit especially felt like being in therapy

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #483 on: October 08, 2020, 08:30:11 AM »
I think I understand better what you guys mean.

For me, in order to aggressively pay my student loans off the MMM way, I had to accept a lifestyle that I wasn't happy with. I ran the numbers, and living on my own wasn't possible unless I stopped paying them off. Please don't get me wrong, I'm glad I paid them off, it's a huge burden lifted. But I also sat on the sidelines of life for 4 years of my prime, and I regret that I had to do that to make it happen.

Two things here
1) as Pete would say, paying off debt is your previous self giving your current self the shaft.  It wasn't current you choosing to forgo life for future you... it was past you dumping this load on current you.  And I say this as half of a couple that had six-figures in combined SLs which we recently paid off in full, so I get where you are coming from.

2) your last sentence concerns me.  The fact that you feel like you had to sit "on the sidelines of life for 4 years of your prime" makes me think that your approach was deeply flawed.  We were broke grad students for a decade (masters than PhD) but neither of us ever felt like we sitting on the sidelines of life.  If anything, we had amazing experiences during out PhDs, living on meager stipends and making lots of headway on our loans. We were actually discussing how we felt our lives were more free adn adventerous when we earned half as much and logged 50% more hours in hte lab. We traveled more, too. Of course having a kid really changed that dynamic ;-P

what is it that makes you feel like you missed out on life?  I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the underlying problem wasn't money per se, but perhaps the stress it entailed and how you approached your social life.

I say all of these things not to pick on you - i'm just reading what you write and suspect there's some deeper underlying factors at play.

I'ts been tough watching all my peers cultivate a domestic life while I still live with roommates. Even though I was doing it first because I had to, and then because I wanted to pay off my debt, it still feels like an arrested development. Like I said before, paying off the debt felt good for a moment, and then redirecting that disposable income into savings after I succeeded felt responsible, but nothing materially changed in my life. It's an intangible success.  The red numbers on my computer screen are gone and the black numbers are getting bigger, and this is decidedly good for Future Me. But that doesn't really mean much to me here and now, you know?

It didn't really hit me until the COVID lockdown: I realized that my life didn't change all that much--the biggest change was not being able to visit my friends and family, which is definitely a big deal, but I only occasionally went out to restaurants or bars, and never traveled or sought out new experiences (where I live, most of those cost money). Some might not have a problem with that, but it occurred to me that I was already living in emergency mode without an actual emergency (insofar as non-MMM people define emergencies).

Having run some of the numbers, I should be able to eke out a 10% savings rate if I get my own place and stop being afraid to spend money. Housing is very expensive where I live, and the Mustachian solution is to move to a LCOL.  But it's also where I've lived my entire life and where all my friends and family are. I have strong doubts that isolating myself from the people I love (more than I already am, given the virus) to have a better savings rate is a good decision.  10% will have to be enough, because I don't want this to be my life anymore



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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #484 on: October 08, 2020, 08:41:26 AM »
Having run some of the numbers, I should be able to eke out a 10% savings rate if I get my own place and stop being afraid to spend money. Housing is very expensive where I live, and the Mustachian solution is to move to a LCOL.  But it's also where I've lived my entire life and where all my friends and family are. I have strong doubts that isolating myself from the people I love (more than I already am, given the virus) to have a better savings rate is a good decision.  10% will have to be enough, because I don't want this to be my life anymore

How are your prospects for increasing your income? Have you made a case study on here?

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #485 on: October 08, 2020, 08:53:13 AM »
I think I understand better what you guys mean.

For me, in order to aggressively pay my student loans off the MMM way, I had to accept a lifestyle that I wasn't happy with. I ran the numbers, and living on my own wasn't possible unless I stopped paying them off. Please don't get me wrong, I'm glad I paid them off, it's a huge burden lifted. But I also sat on the sidelines of life for 4 years of my prime, and I regret that I had to do that to make it happen.

Two things here
1) as Pete would say, paying off debt is your previous self giving your current self the shaft.  It wasn't current you choosing to forgo life for future you... it was past you dumping this load on current you.  And I say this as half of a couple that had six-figures in combined SLs which we recently paid off in full, so I get where you are coming from.

2) your last sentence concerns me.  The fact that you feel like you had to sit "on the sidelines of life for 4 years of your prime" makes me think that your approach was deeply flawed.  We were broke grad students for a decade (masters than PhD) but neither of us ever felt like we sitting on the sidelines of life.  If anything, we had amazing experiences during out PhDs, living on meager stipends and making lots of headway on our loans. We were actually discussing how we felt our lives were more free adn adventerous when we earned half as much and logged 50% more hours in hte lab. We traveled more, too. Of course having a kid really changed that dynamic ;-P

what is it that makes you feel like you missed out on life?  I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the underlying problem wasn't money per se, but perhaps the stress it entailed and how you approached your social life.

I say all of these things not to pick on you - i'm just reading what you write and suspect there's some deeper underlying factors at play.

I'ts been tough watching all my peers cultivate a domestic life while I still live with roommates. Even though I was doing it first because I had to, and then because I wanted to pay off my debt, it still feels like an arrested development. Like I said before, paying off the debt felt good for a moment, and then redirecting that disposable income into savings after I succeeded felt responsible, but nothing materially changed in my life. It's an intangible success.  The red numbers on my computer screen are gone and the black numbers are getting bigger, and this is decidedly good for Future Me. But that doesn't really mean much to me here and now, you know?

It didn't really hit me until the COVID lockdown: I realized that my life didn't change all that much--the biggest change was not being able to visit my friends and family, which is definitely a big deal, but I only occasionally went out to restaurants or bars, and never traveled or sought out new experiences (where I live, most of those cost money). Some might not have a problem with that, but it occurred to me that I was already living in emergency mode without an actual emergency (insofar as non-MMM people define emergencies).

Having run some of the numbers, I should be able to eke out a 10% savings rate if I get my own place and stop being afraid to spend money. Housing is very expensive where I live, and the Mustachian solution is to move to a LCOL.  But it's also where I've lived my entire life and where all my friends and family are. I have strong doubts that isolating myself from the people I love (more than I already am, given the virus) to have a better savings rate is a good decision.  10% will have to be enough, because I don't want this to be my life anymore

I'm still not sure why living alone is so important to you. Is it just because your friends are doing so? It seems like you could continue living with roommates and ease up on the going out part of the budget, while still maintaining a higher savings rate. It sounds like family and friends are important to you. Maybe you just need different roommates?

I don't think the "mustachian solution" is to move to a LCOL.  That's a bit extreme, although of course it's an option. The mustachian solution is to evaluate all options, not just living with multiple roommates vs living alone. You need to find a solution and a savings rate that you are happy with.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #486 on: October 08, 2020, 08:53:43 AM »
I think I understand better what you guys mean.

For me, in order to aggressively pay my student loans off the MMM way, I had to accept a lifestyle that I wasn't happy with. I ran the numbers, and living on my own wasn't possible unless I stopped paying them off. Please don't get me wrong, I'm glad I paid them off, it's a huge burden lifted. But I also sat on the sidelines of life for 4 years of my prime, and I regret that I had to do that to make it happen.

Two things here
1) as Pete would say, paying off debt is your previous self giving your current self the shaft.  It wasn't current you choosing to forgo life for future you... it was past you dumping this load on current you.  And I say this as half of a couple that had six-figures in combined SLs which we recently paid off in full, so I get where you are coming from.

2) your last sentence concerns me.  The fact that you feel like you had to sit "on the sidelines of life for 4 years of your prime" makes me think that your approach was deeply flawed.  We were broke grad students for a decade (masters than PhD) but neither of us ever felt like we sitting on the sidelines of life.  If anything, we had amazing experiences during out PhDs, living on meager stipends and making lots of headway on our loans. We were actually discussing how we felt our lives were more free adn adventerous when we earned half as much and logged 50% more hours in hte lab. We traveled more, too. Of course having a kid really changed that dynamic ;-P

what is it that makes you feel like you missed out on life?  I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the underlying problem wasn't money per se, but perhaps the stress it entailed and how you approached your social life.

I say all of these things not to pick on you - i'm just reading what you write and suspect there's some deeper underlying factors at play.

I'ts been tough watching all my peers cultivate a domestic life while I still live with roommates. Even though I was doing it first because I had to, and then because I wanted to pay off my debt, it still feels like an arrested development. Like I said before, paying off the debt felt good for a moment, and then redirecting that disposable income into savings after I succeeded felt responsible, but nothing materially changed in my life. It's an intangible success.  The red numbers on my computer screen are gone and the black numbers are getting bigger, and this is decidedly good for Future Me. But that doesn't really mean much to me here and now, you know?

It didn't really hit me until the COVID lockdown: I realized that my life didn't change all that much--the biggest change was not being able to visit my friends and family, which is definitely a big deal, but I only occasionally went out to restaurants or bars, and never traveled or sought out new experiences (where I live, most of those cost money). Some might not have a problem with that, but it occurred to me that I was already living in emergency mode without an actual emergency (insofar as non-MMM people define emergencies).

Having run some of the numbers, I should be able to eke out a 10% savings rate if I get my own place and stop being afraid to spend money. Housing is very expensive where I live, and the Mustachian solution is to move to a LCOL.  But it's also where I've lived my entire life and where all my friends and family are. I have strong doubts that isolating myself from the people I love (more than I already am, given the virus) to have a better savings rate is a good decision.  10% will have to be enough, because I don't want this to be my life anymore

FWIW, I think you're attacking things from the wrong end.  You're not happy with your life now -- awesome!  But the solution you've targeted is "ditch the roommates and live alone."  How does that change your daily happiness?  You're still living a life where you're not going anywhere or doing anything; it's just now you have a somewhat nice to sit around in while you're not going anywhere or doing anything.

Why not start from the other direction:  instead of blowing your entire budget on a place to live, what if you took, say, half that amount and put it toward finding fun things to do with your life?  Do you have hobbies or interests?  You could buy a mountain bike or backpacking supplies and get out on the weekends.  You could take an art class or do something creative that you've always wanted to try.  You could join a woodworking club or something similar.  If you want to find a partner, and that's the underlying source of your unhappiness, then get the hell out there and go places where you could meet someone.  Given that you live in a HCOL, the choices are pretty much limited only by your imagination.

It seems like you're fixated on this feeling that everyone else is moving on to a grown-up life, and you're stuck living a college existence.  And that's a great realization to have.  The problem is that you are judging that based entirely on appearances:  you have identified "living on your own in your own house" as the marker, the signal that you, too, are growing up and living your life.  And that, in a word, is bullshit.  You know how you live your life?  You actually go out and live your life.  You put your time and energy into pursuing interests that bring you satisfaction and make you happy and help you grow.  You don't throw money at plush surroundings where you can continue to sit and do nothing, just in greater comfort.  It's like saying my butt is getting sore sitting on my couch, so I'd better invest in a nicer couch. 

BicycleB

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #487 on: October 08, 2020, 03:30:49 PM »
I think I understand better what you guys mean.

For me, in order to aggressively pay my student loans off the MMM way, I had to accept a lifestyle that I wasn't happy with. I ran the numbers, and living on my own wasn't possible unless I stopped paying them off. Please don't get me wrong, I'm glad I paid them off, it's a huge burden lifted. But I also sat on the sidelines of life for 4 years of my prime, and I regret that I had to do that to make it happen.

... your last sentence concerns me.  The fact that you feel like you had to sit "on the sidelines of life for 4 years of your prime" makes me think that your approach was deeply flawed.  We were broke grad students for a decade (masters than PhD) but neither of us ever felt like we sitting on the sidelines of life.  If anything, we had amazing experiences during out PhDs, living on meager stipends and making lots of headway on our loans. We were actually discussing how we felt our lives were more free adn adventerous when we earned half as much and logged 50% more hours in hte lab. We traveled more, too. Of course having a kid really changed that dynamic ;-P

what is it that makes you feel like you missed out on life?  I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the underlying problem wasn't money per se, but perhaps the stress it entailed and how you approached your social life.

I say all of these things not to pick on you - i'm just reading what you write and suspect there's some deeper underlying factors at play.

I'ts been tough watching all my peers cultivate a domestic life while I still live with roommates. Even though I was doing it first because I had to, and then because I wanted to pay off my debt, it still feels like an arrested development...

It didn't really hit me until the COVID lockdown: I realized that my life didn't change all that much--the biggest change was not being able to visit my friends and family, which is definitely a big deal, but I only occasionally went out to restaurants or bars, and never traveled or sought out new experiences...

Having run some of the numbers, I should be able to eke out a 10% savings rate if I get my own place and stop being afraid to spend money. Housing is very expensive where I live, and the Mustachian solution is to move to a LCOL.  But it's also where I've lived my entire life and where all my friends and family are. I have strong doubts that isolating myself from the people I love (more than I already am, given the virus) to have a better savings rate is a good decision.  10% will have to be enough, because I don't want this to be my life anymore

FWIW, I think you're attacking things from the wrong end... the solution you've targeted is "ditch the roommates and live alone."  How does that change your daily happiness?  You're still living a life where you're not going anywhere or doing anything; it's just now you have a somewhat nice to sit around in while you're not going anywhere or doing anything.

@Cool Friend, I hope you find a happier path and stay on it, building an excellent life from this day to your last day (hopefully many years from now).

Like most commenters, I am confident that Pete intended even the MMM character to suggest living the fullest and most thriving life possible. He suspects that for most people, to distinguish spending that has high dividends in personal and financial areas from that which does not is a helpful shortcut. Let's get to the nitty-gritty. What is the shortcut for? What do you really want?

I notice that in the excerpts above, you "watch your peers cultivate a domestic life." What does that mean to you?

Is it about relationships? Are there feelings that someone who cultivates a domestic life would feel that you would like to feel? Is the key difference from your current environment that you would have more control, or more peace from intrusions, or more respect from others, or better looking surroundings, or that your dream love would find you marriageable, or you'd feel comfortable inviting a guest for an intimate encounter, or something else? What aspects of a domestic life can be cultivated in your own place that cannot be found in a shared apartment? Is there something specific that you want, or is it a more general FOMO from people's Insta posts and the assumption that they must feel good in their beautiful homes and private apartments? (FOMO is very understandable in my opinion. If you feel bad, and assume that they feel good - that's a very very natural thought process for sure. Some of them no doubt do feel good.)

It's clear there's something in your current life you dislike. I support making changes to fix that. The clearer the plan, the better. As you explain more, you may get useful suggestions from people on this thread - or even think of your own new ideas that maximize the coming era of improved living.

You wrote that in the last four years, you only occasionally went out to restaurants or bars, and never traveled or sought out new experiences. What would you like to find in the restaurants and bars? What new experiences would you like?

One reason I ask is that, if you get your own place and your savings rate drops to 10%, you wouldn't have much money for restaurants and bars and travel even when those things are fully open again. Which would be better: your own place with little money for new experiences, or living with roommates and spending lots of money on new experiences?

« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 03:56:14 PM by BicycleB »

Cool Friend

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #488 on: October 09, 2020, 08:37:02 AM »
I'm regularly asked to housesit for friends, so a couple weeks out of the year I stay in their apartments by myself to take care of their dog/cat/plants. I don't ask for compensation, because these are like mini-vacations for me. I really love the peace and quiet. I love not waiting for the bathroom or kitchen. I love being able to walk around in my underwear, if I want to. I love not having to deal with other people's particular living quirks and habits (I've had dozens of roommates--everyone has these quirks to varying degrees of annoyance). I love knowing that my own habits aren't bothering anyone either--if I want to cook all day, I'm not bothering anyone. If I want to binge watch a show on the couch til 2am, I'm not bothering anyone. I love knowing that in those four walls, I don't have to interact with anyone at all. I feel my body unclench when I'm alone. I fantasize about how I'd like to decorate and furnish a place of my own if I didn't have to consider anyone else, if I didn't have to compromise with several other people about how my home is set up.

There's definitely the possibility that, if I move out on my own, in time I will come to hate it. I don't know. It's a big, expensive risk to do something I've never done before. I don't know if it's right, but I do know that no matter whom I'm living with, I'm on low-grade edge when they're around, and that's not going away any time soon. In fact, it gets less tolerable the older I get, and is way worse now that I'm stuck with them 24/7 as we all work from home.

So I know that it's not just a desire to keep up with the Joneses, the difference in my mood between being alone and cohabitating is very real. Talking to my friends who once had roommates and now live solo, they tell me they would never, ever go back to roommates. I believe them. Cultivating a domestic life to me means getting to live a home life my way, on my own terms, for once in my life.

edit: Just wanted to thank you for your very thoughtful responses
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 08:39:04 AM by Cool Friend »

TomTX

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #489 on: October 09, 2020, 09:04:14 AM »
Any prospects for finding a "life partner" of some stripe and moving in together? That's a different dynamic than generic roommates.

Cool Friend

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #490 on: October 09, 2020, 12:30:14 PM »
Any prospects for finding a "life partner" of some stripe and moving in together? That's a different dynamic than generic roommates.

Maybe someday, but not anytime soon. Dating still seems pretty risky, and I can't bring anyone home anyway because my roommates and I agreed not to have people over until it's safe to socialize indoors again.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #491 on: October 09, 2020, 02:46:48 PM »
@Cool Friend I have alternated between living alone and living with other people since my mid 20s (earlier than that there were always multiple flatmates, sometimes up to 10) and there is something so enjoyable about walking into a place that is 100% yours. It always felt like removing a weight as soon as I closed the door. Your description of your body unclenching is spot on.

I would say no choice you make now is permanent. You can live on your own for a while and then switch back to living with others. You could post a case study and see what other people could suggest.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #492 on: October 09, 2020, 06:14:29 PM »
I'm regularly asked to housesit for friends, so a couple weeks out of the year I stay in their apartments by myself to take care of their dog/cat/plants. I don't ask for compensation, because these are like mini-vacations for me. I really love the peace and quiet. I love not waiting for the bathroom or kitchen. I love being able to walk around in my underwear, if I want to. I love not having to deal with other people's particular living quirks and habits (I've had dozens of roommates--everyone has these quirks to varying degrees of annoyance). I love knowing that my own habits aren't bothering anyone either--if I want to cook all day, I'm not bothering anyone. If I want to binge watch a show on the couch til 2am, I'm not bothering anyone. I love knowing that in those four walls, I don't have to interact with anyone at all. I feel my body unclench when I'm alone. I fantasize about how I'd like to decorate and furnish a place of my own if I didn't have to consider anyone else, if I didn't have to compromise with several other people about how my home is set up.

There's definitely the possibility that, if I move out on my own, in time I will come to hate it. I don't know. It's a big, expensive risk to do something I've never done before. I don't know if it's right, but I do know that no matter whom I'm living with, I'm on low-grade edge when they're around, and that's not going away any time soon. In fact, it gets less tolerable the older I get, and is way worse now that I'm stuck with them 24/7 as we all work from home.

So I know that it's not just a desire to keep up with the Joneses, the difference in my mood between being alone and cohabitating is very real. Talking to my friends who once had roommates and now live solo, they tell me they would never, ever go back to roommates. I believe them. Cultivating a domestic life to me means getting to live a home life my way, on my own terms, for once in my life.

edit: Just wanted to thank you for your very thoughtful responses

I know exactly what you mean.  I lived with a good friend through college, and we got along well, but no way in hell would I ever go back to living with an unrelated roommate again.  That was a long, long time ago, and I've been married for going on 30 years now, but that's a totally different dynamic from a roommate.

I suggest you sign a one year lease on a small apartment of your own and see how it goes.  You can always go back to sharing an apartment with a roommate if you feel like you need to.  But my guess is you won't.

We all have to find our own equilibrium between saving for the future and living a tolerable life now.  Don't feel bad for doing what works best for you.

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #493 on: October 09, 2020, 11:42:06 PM »
I'm regularly asked to housesit for friends, so a couple weeks out of the year I stay in their apartments by myself to take care of their dog/cat/plants. I don't ask for compensation, because these are like mini-vacations for me. I really love the peace and quiet. I love not waiting for the bathroom or kitchen. I love being able to walk around in my underwear, if I want to. I love not having to deal with other people's particular living quirks and habits (I've had dozens of roommates--everyone has these quirks to varying degrees of annoyance). I love knowing that my own habits aren't bothering anyone either--if I want to cook all day, I'm not bothering anyone. If I want to binge watch a show on the couch til 2am, I'm not bothering anyone. I love knowing that in those four walls, I don't have to interact with anyone at all. I feel my body unclench when I'm alone. I fantasize about how I'd like to decorate and furnish a place of my own if I didn't have to consider anyone else, if I didn't have to compromise with several other people about how my home is set up.

There's definitely the possibility that, if I move out on my own, in time I will come to hate it. I don't know. It's a big, expensive risk to do something I've never done before. I don't know if it's right, but I do know that no matter whom I'm living with, I'm on low-grade edge when they're around, and that's not going away any time soon. In fact, it gets less tolerable the older I get, and is way worse now that I'm stuck with them 24/7 as we all work from home.

So I know that it's not just a desire to keep up with the Joneses, the difference in my mood between being alone and cohabitating is very real. Talking to my friends who once had roommates and now live solo, they tell me they would never, ever go back to roommates. I believe them. Cultivating a domestic life to me means getting to live a home life my way, on my own terms, for once in my life.

edit: Just wanted to thank you for your very thoughtful responses

Sounds like a small private space is in order. High prices make finding one an adventure. Good luck!!

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #494 on: October 10, 2020, 12:48:27 AM »
How do you feel about moving and how much stuff do you have? Would a series of house-sitting / property guardian gigs work for you? Maybe with a van-dwelling between gigs?

undercover

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Re: In what ways do you disagree with MMM's approach?
« Reply #495 on: October 10, 2020, 11:06:07 AM »
But I'm confused, I thought prioritizing saving for the future to lead to the happiest, most satisfying life was the main point?

That could be the point...but I’m not getting the feeling that you are imagining a distinct future where you know where your career and social life is going. I would definitely get depressed saving money for no reason. If you feel deprived it’s because you’re not happy with some imagined future that doesn’t even exist when your current life is suffering for connection and meaning right now.

It’s easy for this site to feel cult-like and for your own mind to feel very obligated to the ideas and principles surrounding FIRE. But the truth is that everyone is on different paths and needs to adjust to their own situation. I don’t think MMM would have been half as motivated to start a blog about FIRE had he not had a stable family life with high income. It’s just easier in that situation, I don’t care who you are. You can apply the principles with a smaller income - but it’s going to take longer and there is less wiggle room for “breathing”.

It’s a lot different when you have a high savings rate and are looking to retire in ten years knowing you can spend whatever you want whenever you want rather than feeling forced to save a certain amount because that’s all you have to work with.

I would start by taking a week out of the city alone and try to disconnect a bit. After that, maybe consider renting a monthly Airbnb somewhere nearby. If you’re still digging the alone time, try a year lease alone. You literally have nothing to lose. If you’re unwilling to do any of that or it didn’t work, you need to at least try to cultivate a life outside of your current space so that you’re not all that concerned with where you lay your head at night. The point is that you need to be living right now in order to feel more “free”. If you do that then the motivation to work harder or make bolder moves will probably happen naturally. If you’re stressed and feel deprived then it’s not as likely to happen.

Maybe also try ditching “expensive risk” from your vocabulary (at least temporarily). First, there is virtually no risk in living alone for a year as a single young person. You can always go back or find new roommates. And it’s only expensive in my book if you’re going into considerable debt to do it. The actual expensive risk could be staying where you are with the same thought loops and routine that you aren’t happy with.