The "rules" change after FI -- right?!

[Alex in Virginia]

Hello, fellow mustachians...

That post title question slapped me upside the head while I was tallying and cataloguing my grocery/pet/household purchases for the past month and shaking my head because I had gone slightly over my budget/allowance/allocation for those items.  And all of a sudden, I went WHAT THE FUCK!  I've already reached financial independence, I've got $49K a year coming in from here and there while my base annual expenses are less than $17K, I have no debt, and I have to make an effort to find ways to spend just some of my spend-for-fun surplus income (which btw keeps piling up).  So why IN HELL am I sitting there plotting how to cut $10 a week off my grocery buying run rate??  It makes no sense.

And so I ask again.  The "rules" change after FI -- right?!

Let me bring that into personal focus, and you guys let me have it if I'm off base.

Let's start with my most valuable asset: my time.  I see my time going into 2 main categories of activities: the things I have to do and the things I want to do.  I decided a good while back -- after I reached FI -- that damned if I'm not going to have at least half my time go towards activities I want to do.  What, you may well ask.  Reading, writing, blogging, hiking, watching movies, touring civil war battlefields, doing road trips into national parks, playing computer strategy games, and personal carpentry projects (as opposed to stuff like retrofitting a sticking closet door).

What activities do I not want to do but do because I "have to"?  House maintenance, house cleaning, investment management, bill paying and general accounting, battling so-called customer service reps over the phone, laundry, washing dishes, snow shoveling in winter and grass mowing in summer, and tending my wife's cockamamy ten "pet" geese (the world's nastiest, dirtiest domesticated critters) in the mudhole of a backyard that they have created.

(Whinypants, anyone?)

I'm beyond FI.  With a big-ass financial cushion IMHO.  And I can't get all the "have to do's" done in the 6-7 hours a day that I am willing to put into them.  So I say OUTSOURCING THE STUFF I DISLIKE DOING IS PERFECTLY ALLRIGHT NOW.  I can afford it.  It will protect and increase my "want to do" time.  It will improve my daily attitude.  Right?

Now let me talk about buying things.  Not just any things.  It's always been in my nature to be quite tightfisted, long before I met Mr. Money Mustache.  I very, very seldom spend money on clothes, electronic wizmos and so on.  But there are some things I enjoy buying and having.  I enjoy collecting history books -- and NO, it's not good enough to check books out of the library, read them and return them.  Not after FI.  I want those books on my bookcases.  Books which 4 times out of 5 I have bought at 60-80% off retail one way or the other.  So maybe I spend 300, 400 bucks a year on books.  So?  That barely dents my annual income.

I also collect horse sculptures and figurines, which I've got displayed all over my house and along with my books.  Because I've slowly -- and frugally -- built up my collection considerably, nowadays it takes quite a horse for me to reach into my wallet.  It maybe happens half-a-dozen times a year.  If that.  And wouldn't you know it?  Two, three weeks ago I saw a horse sculpture I absolutely loved but I would not buy it because the price was something like $150 or so (and I generally won't spend more than $25 a pop for them).  BUT WHAT THE HELL!!!!  I probably haven't found a horse sculpture I wanted in half a year.  I've got loads of surplus income.  I've got a mid-six-figures stash.  I'll never miss the money.  (Obviously, I seem to be missing the sculpture!)  So why shouldn't I go back to that store and buy it, even knowing that I'll be paying full markup for it?  Tell me, why not?

(UPDATE 04/04/13:  After reading all the comments -- including my own later ones -- on my original posting, I went back to that shop and bought the horse!  Well, it turns out I didn't have the same strong pull to buy the $150 sculpture, but I really liked a $55 one and decided to buy it.  Then I saw a tiny (t..i..n..y) flaw behind one of the ears.  No worries!  I negotiated a 25% discount and walked out of the store with my little treasure for under $42.  Nice!)

And if I think (which I don't know if I do) that my computer time would be improved by a new unit costing less than $1000 why should I not buy IT?  Why not?

And so there you have it.  My whiny rant on my recent epiphany that I've already made it for shit's sake, and that the surplus income above my base expenses is there to improve my life not just sit in an investment account making more dollars that I also do not/won't spend.

What do you say?

Cheers...

Alex in Virginia

[arebelspy]

No, the rules don't change.

Yes, you should be enjoying your life now more.  Loosen the purse strings on things that make you happy (horse figurine, for example).  Be frugal on all the stuff that doesn't.

I say the rules don't change, because I'm a firm believer in living the life you want now.  Why put off and wait for some future date?  With that, of course, needs to be a realization of what truly makes you happy (and how little that often costs).  And go get those things you want, whether now, or in FI.

For others, maybe they deprive themselves and the rules change.  That seems to defeat the whole point, to me.

[Jamesqf]

Yeah.  The trick (IMHO, anyway) does not lie in being a miser, it lies in learning to tell the difference between the things you really value, and the things society tells you you ought to have.  Then you find out that most of the stuff you value doesn't cost all that much, which allows you to accumulate a stash and occasionally spend on things you do value.

So yes, in spite of being one of the local library's best customers, I still want books (the ones I think will be worth re-reading, or which the library doesn't have) on my shelves, and I do support a flesh & blood horse.  The computer stuff is a deductable business expense, though.

[KGZotU]

Yes, you should be enjoying your life now more.  Loosen the purse strings on things that make you happy (horse figurine, for example).  Be frugal on all the stuff that doesn't.

The only rule that I know is not to sacrifice substantial future happiness for vanishing happiness in the present. If your happy future is provided for, burn your surplus or use it towards whatever else you might prefer.

[kt]

i think the rules do change technically although whether or not that actually changes things is another matter.
the pre-fi rule is 'save as much as possible whilst being content/happy/satisfied so that you can reach fi'
after fi the rule is 'spend less than your 4% draw-down' (or whatever the terminology and numbers are)

now if your pre-fi outgoings = your post-fi income then nothing changes

and if you were doing everything you possibly wanted whilst saving then nothing changes.

but if you made changes to save more, even if they were ok for that specific, limited period, and you now earn enough to cover them, why not do what you want?

so right now i borrow books and some books i read on my laptop as that is the cheapest way to get them. but i prefer physical books and i prefer to buy them. borrowing/laptoping is not currently a problem. but if i were fi and had the money i would buy more probably, mainly second-hand still.

[mm31]

You can afford anything, just not everything.

I spend good money on things I care a lot about. I minimize my expenses on the rest. This assumes you already know what you really like and being more frugal has put those important things in focus for me. For example, I'm willing to learn far, far more than the average person on excellent, fresh olive oil. I'm also content bundling up and setting my thermostat at 58F to minimize my heat bill.

It's about choices and constraints, really.

[aclarridge]

No, the rules don't change.

Yes, you should be enjoying your life now more.  Loosen the purse strings on things that make you happy (horse figurine, for example).  Be frugal on all the stuff that doesn't.

I say the rules don't change, because I'm a firm believer in living the life you want now.  Why put off and wait for some future date?  With that, of course, needs to be a realization of what truly makes you happy (and how little that often costs).  And go get those things you want, whether now, or in FI.

For others, maybe they deprive themselves and the rules change.  That seems to defeat the whole point, to me.

Disagree, unless you are a SWAMI who will not change their job once reaching FI (although then, what do they do with their extra money?). The main reason is compound interest. It REALLY pays to save more than you are completely comfortable with when you're young, because it allows you to quit the job earlier... maybe a lot earlier. How hard you try to save is different for everyone, and is a function of how much dislike you have for your job.

I think "living the life you want now" isn't possible for everybody. What will you change about your life once you reach FI? If the answer is nothing, then what will you do with your extra cash, and why aren't you doing it already? If the answer is something, then why aren't you doing it already?

[Alex in Virginia]

Loosen the purse strings on things that make you happy (horse figurine, for example).  Be frugal on all the stuff that doesn't. 

You can afford anything, just not everything.  I spend good money on things I care a lot about. I minimize my expenses on the rest.

I think these two comments really hit the nail for me.  AFTER having reached financial independence, the real value of surplus money BEYOND what I need for mustachian living expenses and reserves is the additional free time and enjoyment of life the surplus money could buy me.  And where that line gets drawn is a personal choice.

For example, in my original post one of the "have to do's" I mentioned disliking is shoveling snow.  For anything over 3 inches, it takes me 4 hours to clear my driveway.  Eight hours if the snow is piled up much more than that.  (It's a l-o-n-g driveway.) What's it worth to me not to have to put the time into that?  Put another way, how much would someone have to pay ME to shovel snow?  I would do it for $25 an hour, but not for $15 an hour.  And there's my answer on that one: it's worth it to me to pay $75 to get my driveway cleared of a moderate snow, $150 if it's a really bad one.  If I can't get it done for that much, I'll do it myself and use the money for something else.  Someone else could have a very different answer -- and that would be OK too.

Where it really gets foggy is on things like that $150 horse figurine I mentioned in my original post.  What would I rather have: the figurine on one of my display shelves or the $150 in one of my bank accounts?  In this case, I'm going back to that store and buying the darn thing.  Would I if the price were $250?  Probably not.  It's a gut-level subjective decision and there's no right or wrong answer as long as we remember we're talking about SURPLUS money.

Just so long as I can look myself in the mirror and know that I have not wasted the money.  That I have exchanged it for a greater value (to me).  And I think that does involve a change in the "rules" because after one has attained financial independence -- by definition -- further surplus money no longer helps you become financially independent.  You already are.  Beyond that point, more money is just going to be more paper unless you use it for something (that you value).

Alex in Virginia

[arebelspy]

I think that makes quite a bit of sense.

[Inevitable]

Loosen the purse strings on things that make you happy (horse figurine, for example).  Be frugal on all the stuff that doesn't. 

You can afford anything, just not everything.  I spend good money on things I care a lot about. I minimize my expenses on the rest.

I think these two comments really hit the nail for me.  AFTER having reached financial independence, the real value of surplus money BEYOND what I need for mustachian living expenses and reserves is the additional free time and enjoyment of life the surplus money could buy me.  And where that line gets drawn is a personal choice.

For example, in my original post one of the "have to do's" I mentioned disliking is shoveling snow.  For anything over 3 inches, it takes me 4 hours to clear my driveway.  Eight hours if the snow is piled up much more than that.  (It's a l-o-n-g driveway.) What's it worth to me not to have to put the time into that?  Put another way, how much would someone have to pay ME to shovel snow?  I would do it for $25 an hour, but not for $15 an hour.  And there's my answer on that one: it's worth it to me to pay $75 to get my driveway cleared of a moderate snow, $150 if it's a really bad one.  If I can't get it done for that much, I'll do it myself and use the money for something else.  Someone else could have a very different answer -- and that would be OK too.

Where it really gets foggy is on things like that $150 horse figurine I mentioned in my original post.  What would I rather have: the figurine on one of my display shelves or the $150 in one of my bank accounts?  In this case, I'm going back to that store and buying the darn thing.  Would I if the price were $250?  Probably not.  It's a gut-level subjective decision and there's no right or wrong answer as long as we remember we're talking about SURPLUS money.

Just so long as I can look myself in the mirror and know that I have not wasted the money.  That I have exchanged it for a greater value (to me).  And I think that does involve a change in the "rules" because after one has attained financial independence -- by definition -- further surplus money no longer helps you become financially independent.  You already are.  Beyond that point, more money is just going to be more paper unless you use it for something (that you value).

Alex in Virginia

Just out of curiosity, if you have so much extra money why not get a four wheeler with a snow blade attachment?  I'm sure you could find many uses for it throughout the rest of the year to make all of your "have to dos" easier.

[Alex in Virginia]

Loosen the purse strings on things that make you happy (horse figurine, for example).  Be frugal on all the stuff that doesn't. 

You can afford anything, just not everything.  I spend good money on things I care a lot about. I minimize my expenses on the rest.

The following blog post (http://renewablewealth.com/articles/min-max-your-life/) does a really good job of expanding and clarifying what that writer calls the min-max strategy of selectively spending your money so that it makes the most life difference to you.

Cheers!

Alex in Virginia

[plantingourpennies]

Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

Best,
Mr. PoP

[Russ]

My question is how in the hell you spend a full-time job's worth of time on those have-to-do's every week. Of course I don't know your life, but maybe better time management is in order. Bakari posted a very thorough exercise for this a while back; I'll try and find it to post here shortly.

Edit: found it! https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/an-exercise-to-'create'-more-hours-in-your-day/

[Dee18]

Your house must be really, really clean.

[chucklesmcgee]

The rules are the same, the application results in different decisions.

You are aiming to be free, to have power and control over your life.

Pre-FI, spending on luxuries reduced freedom- it meant you would have to spend that much more time working, and push the level of FI even higher. If something happened to your job, you'd be unable to maintain your lifestyle and be forced to delay vacation

Now that you are FI, additional spending, while remaining well below your passive income doesn't force you to do anything else.  Spending money to give yourself more time gives you more power and control. So long as you spend your money in a way that maximizes your happiness and allows for a comfortable buffer in the event of market fluctuations, I think it's totally Mustachian.

[Mrs MM]

Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

Best,
Mr. PoP

Haha! Nice!  :)

This is an interesting question.  Now that we're FI, I spend money on a crossfit membership.  I would not have done this before.  But, generally, we seem to live even more frugally now than we did before.  I think it has to do with the enlightenment Mr. PoP speaks of.  ;)

In theory, we could drive everywhere, but I would feel disgusted with myself for doing that, not just from a health perspective, but from an environmental perspective.  I'm more careful about how I spend my money because I don't want to support something that I don't believe in.

For example, someone posted this recently: http://quarterly.co/

This might sound fun to some people, right?  It's unique, interesting, and a cool idea.  But when it comes right down to it, it's a bunch of stuff being mailed around to a bunch of people.  The stuff will collect and people will lose interest in it.  Then we're stuck with a bunch of stuff (see story of stuff).

So yeah, if your hardworking next door neighbor needs cash and is willing to shovel your driveway for you, then great!  I say go for it.  On the other hand, if gas power is being used to clear your driveway, and potentially adding to our current pollution problem, then I'd say it's not that great.  Yeah, I know some driveways require more power, but I'm just trying to make a point here. 

Someone I know on facebook wrote today: "Look. I'm just being honest. If it comes down to my comfort versus the environment. My comfort will always win."

This kind of pissed me off (I did manage to keep my mouth shut though).  So, this might have something to do with my response to you today.  :)

Anyway, generally yeah... spend on things you actually really enjoy.  My caveat is always: does it also make me healthy and is it good for the environment?

[travelbug]

Great thread. As someone who is FI but still tying up loose ends on a business, so not retiring until mid-2014, this topic has been debated in our household alot.

Having lived life in a mindset that each and every purchase or expenditure will extend the time we have to work, it's difficult to rush out and buy things you have been coveting, even though you can easily afford it.

Knowing I can afford something but choose not to purchase it gives me the power/control thrill that I enjoy but it has taken me a while to get to this point. I do still buy stuff but always make sure it is something I truly want and generally wait a fair while before pulling the trigger.

TB

[ch12]

I think arebelspy is right and that the OP is right. It's about the marginal utility of your money. Brave New Life's Guest Post on Marginal Utility I think that the OP went too far on cutting and didn't allow himself to have maximum happiness while stashing his cash.

The thing that I would be really afraid of as an early retiree would be lifestyle inflation - so much so that you weren't Mustachian anymore. I like how Mrs. MM pointed out her CrossFit expenditure and said that she wouldn't do that pre-retirement. I think that post reaching FI, I would reexamine where I want to or could spend money to increase overall happiness. This reminds me of MMM's road trip to Frugal Dad MMM: First Retire, Then Have Kids, where he says that if you are living alone, you should spend 15-25k per year and if you are living with a partner you can spend 20-35k per year. I think that's a reasonable level of expenditure and I think that I would self-regulate by making sure to stay within those lines.

I know that I would be very likely to say, "I am FI! TIME TO MAKE IT RAIN!" And then I would no longer be FI. This is probably just me, though, and most Mustachians probably are so frugal and advanced in their wisdom that they would never spend their cash frivolously. (Frivolously/making it rain in these forums or in the ERE forums is buying new books whereas in normal life buying a book is considered a good, sensible thing. Which is...strange. But apparently most people don't read lots and lots of books American Reading Habits (I'm part of the 22% who reads more than 20 books) and I do recognize that I would quickly be broke if my library did not enable my book addiction.

[arebelspy]

(Frivolously/making it rain in these forums or in the ERE forums is buying new books whereas in normal life buying a book is considered a good, sensible thing. Which is...strange. But apparently most people don't read lots and lots of books American Reading Habits (I'm part of the 22% who reads more than 20 books) and I do recognize that I would quickly be broke if my library did not enable my book addiction.

I read tons of books, I just don't buy them.  The library is amazing (as are ebooks).

The "stuff" bothers me more than the money.  Why would I want a shelf full of books I've recently read, and might never read again (or might read in 5 years - get it then)?

So sure, purchasing the amount of books I read would be frivolous, IMO (costing ~$1000/year), but that has nothing to do with the fact that lots of Americans read, or don't. 

:)

[ch12]

I also currently don't buy books - the library's ebook collection is amazing. But if MMM's suggestions are for the general population, then book expenditures probably don't comprise a huge part of their planned budgets. (He did mention in the library article that Mrs. MM used to be a bit addicted to Amazon.)

The thing is that I wish I could buy all the books I wanted...but I know the dangers. My parents' house has so many bookshelves and so many books (in the hundreds if not thousands) that I've read or purchased throughout the years alongside my sister. I was the kid who would come down the stairs at the library holding a giant stack of books that literally went over my head. I used to volunteer in book maintenance at my local library (excellent excuse to go to the library every week), and I know that library books get grubby, torn, ripped, scribbled in, etc. I'm a bit like Madam Pince from Harry Potter about my books (I practically start hyperventilating when I see a dog eared page)- which is why it makes me happy to get pristine ebooks, which are also categorized, which again makes me happy.

I understand the weight that it adds to have loads of books, but I'm a really big re-reader and it's not uncommon for me to read the same book 3-4 times after finishing. Books are like old friends. I've read bits and pieces of Charles Duhigg's Power of Habit for the last year almost (I got it from the library and immediately bought it). I used to read Ramit Sethi's I Will Teach You To Be Rich on the subway ride in and out of DC over the summer. Again and again. You have to understand that I read it in its entirety when it came out in 2009. It may not be worth it for other people to buy books, but I like to have books (especially ebooks). The satisfaction that comes with book ownership is totally contrary to living lightly, I know, and I'm a bad minimalist anyway. But I would work an extra year or so to fund my book addiction.