Test Yourself! Define Middle Class! No cheating!

[Gone Fishing]

Another active thread makes a lot of mention of terms like average, middle class, normal, etc.  Made me wonder how many people consider themselves middle class.  Turns out 70% of America considers themselves middle class. No wonder politicians throw the term around so much!  Then, I read the definition of middle class, per Pew Research, and it made little sense to me.  And that, made me wonder what others consider to be middle class. 

So for the TEST! Click reply and post what YOU consider the middle class to be BEFORE reading any of the other responses or doing any type of search.  After you post, feel free to read the other posts and post/link any information you deem helpful.  I'll post my initial thoughts and a link to the 70% article which includes Pew's definition a little way down in the thread.

[Gone Fishing]

No cheating!  No cheating!  No Cheating No cheating!  No cheating!  No Cheating! No Cheating!









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[Gone Fishing]

I assumed the middle class would be the two quartiles around either the median or the mean income for a household. 

It could also mean 50 percent of households or the middle two quartiles of the population.

Neither of which line up with Pew's definition

Here is the article:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/30/70-percent-of-americans-consider-themselves-middle-class-but-only-50-percent-are.html

[SustainableStache]

I consider middle class to be the 25th to 75th percentile - i.e. the middle 50%. Nationwide, I'd guess that's $30k to $70k. Depending on your city or "metro area", those percentages and salaries could be greatly higher or lower. For instance, compare the middle class of Boulder to the middle class of Leadville. Two different salary ranges there, I'm sure.

[Cali]

Interesting. I identified myself as middle class based on my savings, not my income. The single person’s range for middle class was laughable. Well unless you live somewhere other then Los Angeles. Lol.

[Gone Fishing]

I'll try to find an "average" cost of living city to compare to, but until I do, here is a tool to play with.

https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx

[Gone Fishing]

As long as there is no serious disagreement, let's use Akron, OH for the US standard.

https://www.infoplease.com/business-finance/us-economy-and-federal-budget/cost-living-index-selected-us-cities1

[quakerboy87]

I would define middle class as someone who has two of the following
1. A college education
2. A job paying between 30,000-100,000 per adult
3. A social safety net that could allow you to borrow $5,000 in an emergency
4. You are fully employed as an artist, educator, or other cultural role.

[kkbmustang]

Your no cheating space filler is hilarious. I'm at an advantage because I read the FIRE blogger manifesto by Our Next Life yesterday, but I don't remember what study was mentioned or the exact cut offs. With that disclaimer, I'd say lower to solid middle class are those with household incomes between $30-80k-ish. Upper middle, into the low six figures. Upper class above say $160k?

[DreamFIRE]

I've already pre-cheated, many times, because I've read up on this multiple times in the past because you always hear politicians and others talking about the "middle class."  There is no real, single, and global definition, so people can twist it to mean about anything.  I remember a CNN (?) article some time back that gave a few different definitions of middle class.  I've seen another that they factor in your family size (which is important), another factoring in your location (also important).  And some definitions don't even factor in absolute income ranges at all.  After assimilating all that info from the past, I finally determined I would describe myself as upper middle class, yet I don't spend as much as the typical upper middle class person.

[MoseyingAlong]

I think "middle class" is the way you live vs. indicating income.
e.g. middle class don't live in a gated community, have a nanny, fly first-class. They do eat at casual restaurants like Chili's, attend a local school, either private or public, drive themselves and generally work a regular job.

Someone can be high income and middle class (such as the couple that started all this reflection). Someone else can be using debt to live upper class.

"Middle income" is related to median household income.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[seattlecyclone]

I'm not sure I could point to one attribute of a person's existence (such as their income or wealth) and say that this one thing determines whether you're in the middle class or not. Seems like Pew or others just use some arbitrary income cutoffs. These may make sense on a broad basis, but fail to account for any number of life circumstances.

For example, they define a $42,000 income as the lower bound of middle class for a family of three. After FIRE my family could well have a lower income than this. Does that mean we're lower-class poor people? No way! Whatever criteria you use, I'd propose that people who have enough wealth that they never have to work another day in their lives should be squarely in the upper class.

[mtbbrown]

Haven't looked this up at all so I'll just give my best guess on a few things that define middle class people/families:

Ability to spend on some items for comfort's sake rather than cost's sake (buying a new car over a used car f.e.)
Either don't own their own home or have minimal assets saved outside of their home (more than minimal assets would put them in what is considered the "upper middle class")
Some money saved so that they aren't instantly homeless if they lose their job
Open and save some money in 401k or IRA
Typically higher paid hourly or lower level salary workers

Might have missed a couple but I think these are good indicators on whether a person/family is "middle class"
The main problem with the term "middle class" is that it means different things to different people, and since most people don't want to self-identify as "rich" or "poor" there is a very large self-reported middle class.

I'm not the most knowledgeable on this subject, these are just my opinions.

[DreamFIRE]

Here's a good middle class calculator that actually figures in income, location, AND household size:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/05/11/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/

Here's one that just uses income and location:

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/economy/middle-class-calculator/

In my case, they show me as "not middle" and upper class.

I also found the CNN article I referred to in my previous post that mentions different ways of defining middle class:

http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/what-is-middle-class-anyway/index.html

[mxt0133]

Having just read Evicted and now currently reading Living on $2 a day, my definition has changed significantly to where making $45K for a family of 4 is solidly middle class in 95% of American cities for me.

Basically if you do have to worry about having a place to live or where you are going to get the money to keep your heat on, you are middle class.

We are currently traveling through the southern states from California to Florida and have been out of the Bay Area bubble for a few days, the hedonistic treadmill is real.  I'm feeling very grateful for what we have and recognize how lucky my family is.

[SC93]

I would define middle class as someone who has two of the following
1. A college education
2. A job paying between 30,000-100,000 per adult
3. A social safety net that could allow you to borrow $5,000 in an emergency
4. You are fully employed as an artist, educator, or other cultural role.

This gets me really lost so I have a few serious questions for you. How about someone like me who never finished high school yet went back and got his GED. I took a few college courses but never really took it serious and quickly dropped out. As for pay, when I had my base business that made me my original money, I made way more than $100,000. My little business to keep me busy (used washers & dryers) is on track to make a taxable income of $75,000-$100,000 this year. I've never borrowed money but my business partner would loan me as much as I needed probably $1 or $2 million if I was in a jam. I have a little play business that I work in to keep me busy and I also still have businesses that I am not involved in anymore that make more than the #2 of your qualifications. I never worked in any of your criteria..... I made my money in the cleaning business to start.

So with your qualifications, I wouldn't even be middle class because I do not have a college education, the only way I could get $5000 is to borrow from a friend because I have a 0 credit score and I am not fully employed as a artist, educator nor any other cultural role..... yet I could go pay cash for anything in the world that I want. This just doesn't make sense. If you think I am rare, think again.... I know plenty of people that don't fit any of those and are rich as well. Did I miss something or did you not think about things such as this? I guess the only thing on my side is that my wife has a huge roll at a very well-known museum so maybe that gets me closer to your criteria? But trust me, the zero's that I make are far more than hers and she meets EVERY ONE of what you think is middle class. I'm confused....

[Zikoris]

I can't speak for everywhere, but in my city (Vancouver) I'd stick middle class at a household income (two working adults) of about 50K-100K. Median household income is around 70K I believe, so that seems about right. We're right in the middle of that range at around 83K.

[kkbmustang]

Snip/ now currently reading Living on $2 a day, my definition has changed significantly to where making $45K for a family of 4 is solidly middle class in 95% of American cities for me.

Snip.

This is the second time in two days someone has mentioned this book. Is it good? Do you recommend it?

[PseudoStache]

Your no cheating space filler is hilarious. I'm at an advantage because I read the FIRE blogger manifesto by Our Next Life yesterday, but I don't remember what study was mentioned or the exact cut offs. With that disclaimer, I'd say lower to solid middle class are those with household incomes between $30-80k-ish. Upper middle, into the low six figures. Upper class above say $160k?

When someone says they make "in the low six-figures," is it commonly accepted that means low $100K range as you are indicating here (ie. $100K-$159K)?  Numerically, I consider "low six-figures" to be $100K - $350Kish?

So when someone says they make "mid-six figures" do you take that to mean around $150K or around $500K?

Anyway...

My thoughts on defining middle class are similar to MoseyingAlong and mtbbrown in the sense that I believe people that are "genuinely" middle class "don't live in a gated community, have a nanny, fly first-class. They do eat at casual restaurants like Chili's, attend a local school, either private or public, drive themselves and generally work a regular job."  I'm not sure what the specific salary bands would be, but do believe that location would matter.

I disagree with "Someone can be high income and middle class (such as the couple that started all this reflection). Someone else can be using debt to live upper class."

This goes back to where I said "genuinely" middle class.

If someone makes $500K, but chooses to live a "middle class lifestyle," I don't consider them middle class... Sure they may act that way, but deep inside they are telling themselves, "I could own a McMansion or drive a BMW, but I don't" for whatever reason they have.  A person "genuinely" part of the middle class can't say that.

If someone HAS to go into debt to achieve any class level, then they "genuinely" aren't part of that class level.

That's why I take issue with the now infamous couple that everyone is talking about.

If it's true that they have incomes greater than $300K a year, I believe that gives them the ability to live at least an Upper-Middle Class life.  To place them in the same category as a family with a household income of $100K or less does not seem appropriate - even if they choose to live the same way.

[clarkfan1979]

Per the instructions, I didn't read the article. I think middle class is a combination of income and net worth.

I have an uncle that didn't graduate high school. He was a machinist and made about 30K. He was frugal and his family lived a good life. He probably spent 1-3 months every year not working because his field was in decline. He only has social security and a paid off house in retirement. He makes it work.

My dad had a high school education and trade school. He was a union pipe-fitter. He probably made 90K with lots of overtime because his job was in higher demand. My dad made about 3 times as much but our lives were not that much different from my uncle's family. My dad took less vacations and had less of a life of leisure, although making much more.

Lower class would be income of less than 30K and less than 10K net worth. Middle class would be 30K to 75K and net worth 10K to 200K. Upper Class (top 25%) would be income of 75K+ and net worth of 200K+.

For me personally, you need high income and high net worth to be in the upper class. 

[Paul der Krake]

I enjoy the cultural appropriation of being a pauper, sue me.

[Michael in ABQ]

I would consider middle class in America to have a household income between $40,000 to $115,000, dependent on location. $115,000 in rural Missouri is obviously quite different than in Manhattan.

The upper limit is hard to nail down because you can have two incomes that are pretty average by themselves that added together are over $100,000. I'm the sole income for my family at around $70k. If my wife worked (not going to happen anytime soon with baby #6 on the way) and made $50k that would put as at $120,000. But then we'd end up having much higher expenses for daycare, commuting, probably eating out more, taxes, etc. A lot of that extra income would get wiped out by those higher expenses. Realistically as an English major who's last job was working the front desk at a hotel a decade ago in college, if she did go to work full time the marginal increase would probably be very minimal.

 

[terran]

I wonder if there's something to living a middle class lifestyle vs having a middle class income?

My wife and I are a bit into the upper class income wise according to most of the definitions here and the links posted. We live on less than what a median income household could even if they saved a "normal"/responsible amount for retirement. I grew up in a lower class family income wise. I would feel uncomfortable running in the upper class circles that our income would allow if we lived paycheck to paycheck like much of the country. So where does that put us? Are we middle class because that's how we live despite the higher income? Or are we upper class by virtue of the choice that a higher income allows us to make despite not fitting in with others at that income level?

[Lamancha]

I'll play.  I'm guessing middle class would be a household annual income of between 60k and 250k.

[Ananas]

In Finland the middle class is people who earn from 25000 euros to 60000 euros a year. But middle class is also broader question of what you appreciate in life and what you do.
From what i understand of the U.S. middle class is anything from 30000 $ a year to 75000 $ a year (maybe a bit more in HCOL locations).

[Imma]

Middle class in the Netherlands: median income is about 35k. I'd say middle class starts at 2x median income, so 60-70k tot a couple. That's what two teachers or police officers make. If you earn more than twice the average each, I think you're pretty rich, so the upper limit is something like 130k.

This sounds like a lot of money, but it's how much you need to live in a middle class house (300k-400k) drive two cars, go on a foreign holiday every year and pay for piano lessons for your kids.

[Trifle]

OK, I'll have a go.  I'll say it's something like earning between 40 and 75% on the income distribution scale (with 50% being the median)

[2Birds1Stone]

MC = 70-200% OF median income

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Seradoc]

Middle class is when you neither recognize yourself as poor or rich.

As such, it mainly excludes the extreme ends of the spectrum, since people consider themselves these things when comparing their lives to their peers, but also adjust their peer group to match their position in life.

[Vegasgirl]

I really don't know but maybe the middle 50% of avg income in the US?   I know that compared to most of the rest of the world we are rich here.  And I know that in my own household we are rich even if it doesn't feel like it sometimes.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Hmmm, never thought about it before, but here’s my guess:

Poor: less than $100 in savings, making less than $20k a year.
Middle class: less than $5k in savings, making less than $150k combined a year
Rich: less than $100k in savings, making more than $150k but less than $300k
Wealthy: everyone above rich

[Cranky]

We like to pretend that we don't have "classes" in America, so we talk about income instead. There's some overlap, but it's not synonymous.

What does it mean to be "working class"?

[2Birds1Stone]

What does it mean to be "working class"?

Majority of adults. Means you punch a clock for a living.

[DreamFIRE]

Another reference:  https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/13/heres-how-much-you-have-to-earn-to-be-considered-middle-class.html

Household of one: $24,042 to $72,126

Household of two: $34,000 to $102,001

Household of three: $41,641 to $124,925

Household of four: $48,083 to $144,251

Household of five: $53,759 to $161,277

They don't even factor in location, though.  The Pew calculator I posted earlier factors in household size AND location.

[2Birds1Stone]

Another reference:  https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/13/heres-how-much-you-have-to-earn-to-be-considered-middle-class.html

Household of one: $24,042 to $72,126

Household of two: $34,000 to $102,001

Household of three: $41,641 to $124,925

Household of four: $48,083 to $144,251

Household of five: $53,759 to $161,277

Yup, and then you have to adjust up/down based on location. Those bands will look a lot different in Rural Alabama vs. Long Island, NY

[Northstar]

When I think of middle class I think of basic things, not exactly how much money someone makes or has saved but everyday things like when they go grocery shopping they get name brand items instead of the store brand, or their children comfortably can play sports or when they go out to eat they don’t have to remind themselves to get the cheapest thing on the menu. I guess what I’m saying is that to middle middle class is a small sliver of comfort. But still not to the point of abundance. Maybe can afford 1 nice vacation a year or splurge on a decently newer vehicle.

[chemistk]

I've always seen it as a family of 4 with ~$50-$55k/year income. Usually carrying some consumer + long-term debt.

[Schaefer Light]

If there are 3 classes (lower, middle, and upper), then it seems like they should each make up 1/3 of the total population.  I have a hard time deciding if the classifications should be based on wealth or income, though.  People who make a lot of money but spend it all may have upper class lifestyles, but I'd rather have a lower income and more money saved up. 

[marty998]

I would say between 30-70 percentiles.

Funny discussion has always been had in Australia...

100% of people will tell you "I'm not rich so please move along and tax the next richer person standing next to me..."

We like to pretend that we don't have "classes" in America, so we talk about income instead. There's some overlap, but it's not synonymous.

What does it mean to be "working class"?

It depends on what kind of beer you drink.

[Adam Zapple]

This is a great idea for a thread but I hate looking at America as a whole since cost of living can vary so much from state to state.  I would say your median household income is around $50K and middle class is between $35K-$65K.

[diapasoun]

I'll bite.

I would want to call the "middle" class the middle third of the nation in terms of COL-adjusted gross income per person (e.g. earner(s) plus dependents).

1. If you have a low, middle, and upper class, then dividing that into thirds seems rather straightforward. Depending on what the graph of income looks like, I can also imagine having a lower quartile, an upper quartile, and two middle quartiles.

2. You have to adjust for COL. We can't directly compare San Francisco or New York to a small town in Michigan or Alabama and expect to see something that makes sense. For example, the area I live in now has a roughly 40% higher COL than the area I grew up in. And pay is not 40% higher, unfortunately.

3. I understand why people abstract to a four person (two adults, two kids) household... but my life would be very different if my salary were the combined household income for two adults with two children.

[JanetJackson]

Testing myself without taking into account any research and I'd say-
Having grown up in a 2 parent household with double income that never surpassed 50k, I'd place the middle class beginning at 40-60k with little to no consumer debt, maybe a mortgage, maybe a small amount of student loans.

I know we struggled (In a LCOL very very rural area) the years only one parent worked (at about 25-30k) and occasionally had to use community pantries, etc. but the years that both parents worked (once both kids were in school) we went without luxuries (couldn't go on school trips, couldn't buy yearbooks or class rings, etc.) but not without necessities, so I'd say we were inching toward middle-class at that point.

Singe Income: 40k-60k
Double Income: 60k-90k

100k has always seemed so incredibly wealthy/high income to me, I can't even imagine.  The only home I've ever owned was 59k, and I felt like it was a gorgeous amazing mansion (I have since sold).  I genuinely didn't realize people paid 200k+ for houses until somewhat recently.  I could save 80k+/year on a 100K income *drifts off into dreamland*...

[boarder42]

Middle class is making around the median household income in the country which is i believe around 55k ... so i'd say middle class would range from the poverty level to about 70k give or take.

[diapasoun]

Reading through all the responses now...

I define middle class based on lifestyle and middle income based on income, and the two don't always align.

Excellent point, and made by @Cranky too re: America pretending that we don't have classes. I was defining middle income in my response -- but class really isn't the same thing as income, or even quite the same thing as lifestyle. I grew up in a middle income family that culturally straddled the working class/middle class boundaries, due to broader family circumstances and location. It wasn't just about how our lifestyle; it was also about mindsets, and how other people treated us and interacted with us.

[Thegoblinchief]

It’s a nebulous term. The median household is a bit over $50K currently, so the “middle” class would have to start slightly lower than that, but unless we start adjusting for COL in many expensive areas it would have to go as high as, say, $150K perhaps even higher.

[Carrie]

$39,000 - $99,000 my guess for middle.
$99001- $220,000 upper middle
$220,001 -$450,000 rich
Above that wealthy.

[Rufus.T.Firefly]

I think of middle class as an economic indicator only. Although I think many people refer to it colloquially as a social status.

Mentally, I define middle class as household income around 40-60K/year. I consider 25-40K range to be lower middle class and 70-90K upper middle class.

Of course, our household income has topped over 90K, but I still think of our family as being middle class. I guess that doesn't make much sense? My own definition contradicts that. Funny.

[Gondolin]

Households with annual income in the middle 50% of earners for a given region.

[SustainableStache]

I agree. I was an early responder and focused on income. But after reading the responses and thinking more, "middle class values" is distinct from the income. What are middle class values?

Maybe middle class is being a consumer sucka? Displaying their access to credit with purchases of homes, SUVs, etc. They will buy as much as they can borrow for.

I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud here...

Reading through all the responses now...

I define middle class based on lifestyle and middle income based on income, and the two don't always align.

Excellent point, and made by @Cranky too re: America pretending that we don't have classes. I was defining middle income in my response -- but class really isn't the same thing as income, or even quite the same thing as lifestyle. I grew up in a middle income family that culturally straddled the working class/middle class boundaries, due to broader family circumstances and location. It wasn't just about how our lifestyle; it was also about mindsets, and how other people treated us and interacted with us.

[Gondolin]

adults whose annual household income is two-thirds to double the national median, which was $55,775 as of 2016.
That means singles making between $24,000 and $72,000 annually are middle class.

Went back and read the article. Does this math make any sense to anyone? Is the $55k number for 2 earner households?