Author Topic: Tesla 3 Unveiled  (Read 50829 times)

Guses

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2016, 12:12:14 PM »
Jack, never say never!

Normal maximal solar irradiation on earth is about 1000 watt per square meter. A 100% efficient panel would therefore generate as much power.

I suppose if we repealed the first two laws of thermodynamics you could be right....

Jack brought up the outrageous 100% efficient panel in the post I quoted, not I.
 

tomsang

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2016, 12:18:02 PM »
Using that article to prove your point is like using this article to say we should expect gasoline cars to get >2500 miles per gallon.

I think you missed my point.  My point was people were saying that it was not theoretically possible to develop a car that 100% ran on solar, ever.  Not today, not 10 years from now, but forever it is impossible to develop a car that runs 100% on solar.  Per Steviesterno's quip, "eventually cars will be covered in solar panels so you just charge as you drive and wherever you are parked. that will be sweet. road trip? Just go when it's sunny and run forever."

To me that seems crazy that people are saying something is 100% impossible when the vehicle currently exists.  Now, I am getting jabs that it is made out of fiber composite and aluminum and it is unaffordable.  We aren't talking about going to the local car dealer and picking up one today.  Steviesterno said eventually.  In which people were giving all the formulas on why it was not possible.  Which is bizarre to me when I linked a car that does exactly what Steviesterno described.  Cost will drop considerable as the vehicle is designed and built by automation.  3d printing is opening up efficiencies that could not be imagined 30 years ago and we are just at the infancy of the technology.     

Guses

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2016, 12:18:59 PM »
eventually cars will be covered in solar panels so you just charge as you drive and wherever you are parked. that will be sweet. road trip? Just go when it's sunny and run forever.

That will never be possible. The ratio of the car's surface area to the amount of energy it requires is too low. Even if you had a car that used the same amount of energy as a Geo Metro or large motorcycle but had the surface area of a tour bus and was completely covered in 100% efficient solar panels, it still wouldn't be enough.

Jack, never say never!

Normal maximal solar irradiation on earth is about 1000 watt per square meter. A 100% efficient panel would therefore generate as much power.

According to this study (www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/7/12/8317/pdf), the 800 KG passenger car that they modeled consumes about 2,250 watts driving at 50 Km/h per hour. It would totally be possible to drive that car at that speed using 100% efficient solar panels on the car (assuming optimal sunlight).


So yeah, when you factor in efficiency and non optimal conditions, it likely won't be possible with current technology but solar panels could still contribute a non trivial amount of energy to a car and possibly extend the range significantly.

800 kg is 1764 lbs, or slightly heavier than a 1990 Geo Metro (and lighter than even a Mazda Miata). And that's before you add any passengers or cargo. And don't forget range issues! You'd still need batteries for our hypothetical car (in order to do things like drive at night), and those still add weight. Let's assume a realistic minimum laden weight is more like 2600 lbs, or about 1.5x the car in the study. Power required increases linearly with mass, so a car weighing 1.5x more would need 1.5x more power.

50 km/h is 31 mph, or about half as fast as the car would need to go to keep up with normal traffic. Note that the power required to overcome drag increases with the cube of the velocity, which means that the power required to go 60 mph is 8x more than the power required to go 30 mph.

If we multiply the weight and drag factors together (which is a wild and reckless simplification, but probably good enough for a forum post), it seems like we need 12x as much power than the study assumes, which means we'd need 12x as much surface area for the solar panels. The car in the study actually needed 2250 watts and you assumed the panels produced 1000 watts per m2, so it would need 2.25 m2 and our realistic car would need 27m2

A Cadillac Fleetwood, one of the largest sedans ever made, measured 78" wide and 225" long. Translated to metric, that's roughly 2m * 5.7m = 11.4m2 of projected surface area -- not enough, even before you subtract to account for things like the sloping windshield and the fact that no realistic car would be perfectly flat and rectangular.


You claimed that it was impossible for a car that consumed very little energy to run (a small car or motorcycle) to "run forever" with 100% efficient solar panels the size of a trailer truck. I simply pointed out that your claim was false.

I don't disagree with what you are saying in this post.


Jack

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2016, 12:20:20 PM »
We started off this theoretical side thread with Steviesterno's quip, "eventually cars will be covered in solar panels so you just charge as you drive and wherever you are parked. that will be sweet. road trip? Just go when it's sunny and run forever. "

I think it has been proven that this is possible today, except the run forever part.  I am not sure what road trip a person would be doing that they need to be driving 24/7.

I linked a 4 person car that can go 800 miles currently with solar and charge or 250+ with just solar.  It is a prototype and one that they are improving on a daily basis.  What does the future hold?

 Sorry to be blunt, but if you think you proved anything, you're wrong. The car you cited is only an incremental improvement over the Sunraycer from 30 years ago. Sure, it has actual doors and such and four seats instead of one, but it's still only managed to upgrade from bicycle tires to (small) motorcycle tires, has no crash structure whatsoever, and while they make claims about range, any mention of the speed at which that range is accomplished is conspicuously absent.

In other words, it has about as much in common with the average mass-market production sedan as a top-fuel dragster does, which is to say, almost nothing at all.

I think you missed my point.  My point was people were saying that it was not theoretically possible to develop a car that 100% ran on solar, ever.  Not today, not 10 years from now, but forever it is impossible to develop a car that runs 100% on solar.  Per Steviesterno's quip, "eventually cars will be covered in solar panels so you just charge as you drive and wherever you are parked. that will be sweet. road trip? Just go when it's sunny and run forever."

And it still isn't possible! The thing you linked to is an experiment, not practical transportation. The vast chasm between a World Solar Challenge car and a Toyota is unbridgeable.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 12:22:26 PM by Jack »

tomsang

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2016, 12:21:56 PM »
that car doesnt charge as fast as that quote you have says.  it takes 12 hours to charge those batteries on sun alone its pretty simple math to figure that out, the time to charge quoted is using grid power not solar power. the author doesnt know what he is saying.

I just noticed that in another article.  I believe it said that it takes 10 hours to charge fully.  Mustachian road trip.  Drive 700 miles, camp and park your car in a sunny spot and head out for another 700 mile trip the next day.

This is also with today's technology of panels that are probably below 50% efficient. 

tomsang

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2016, 12:25:35 PM »

And it still isn't possible! The thing you linked to is an experiment, not practical transportation. The vast chasm between a World Solar Challenge car and a Toyota is unbridgeable.

Are you still sticking with that it is theoretically impossible? Did you also feel that way 15 years ago when someone said that a Tesla or Leaf were possible?

By the way, that car that I linked is licensed and road certified in the Netherlands.  Will we need airbags 30 years from now when all cars are autonomous and there hasn't been an accident in a decade?  I think you are thinking about what is practical today vs. what is possible 20 years from now.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 12:39:04 PM by tomsang »

beltim

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2016, 12:31:07 PM »
Using that article to prove your point is like using this article to say we should expect gasoline cars to get >2500 miles per gallon.

I think you missed my point.  My point was people were saying that it was not theoretically possible to develop a car that 100% ran on solar, ever.  Not today, not 10 years from now, but forever it is impossible to develop a car that runs 100% on solar.  Per Steviesterno's quip, "eventually cars will be covered in solar panels so you just charge as you drive and wherever you are parked. that will be sweet. road trip? Just go when it's sunny and run forever."

To me that seems crazy that people are saying something is 100% impossible when the vehicle currently exists.  Now, I am getting jabs that it is made out of fiber composite and aluminum and it is unaffordable.  We aren't talking about going to the local car dealer and picking up one today.  Steviesterno said eventually.  In which people were giving all the formulas on why it was not possible.  Which is bizarre to me when I linked a car that does exactly what Steviesterno described.  Cost will drop considerable as the vehicle is designed and built by automation.  3d printing is opening up efficiencies that could not be imagined 30 years ago and we are just at the infancy of the technology.     

Right, you could absolutely use a car like the one you linked to go ~300 miles per day.  The theoretical maximum efficiency of solar panels is something like 50% more than today – but add 2 more people and stuff to that car, and you add about 50% more weight.  So even if you got the car street legal at that weight (which currently uses the strongest, lightest materials we can), you're still looking at something like a maximum of 300 miles/day in the sunniest climates in the most favorable part of the year.  Using the chart from their web site, that car can't even get 50 miles per day in the winter using its solar panels.

So yes, that car can go 50 miles per day if it's sunny in the winter, and maybe 300 per day in the summer using its solar panels.  But that sure isn't Stevie's "charge as you drive and run forever"

tobitonic

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2016, 12:31:25 PM »
There's definitely a lot of Old Man Thinking going on here. All of the rationalizations about why practical solar cars won't work were still being used to denigrate electric cars just a few years ago. They won't have the range, they can't be charged, they'll be all battery, they won't be safe, they won't carry more than one person, they'll look hideous, people won't buy them, etc. And all the naysayers were wrong.

You guys who are saying practical solar won't happen are the electric naysayers; you just don't realize it because you've conveniently set your threshold for what's possible at exactly where you are right now...which is what every naysayer of human progress has ever done. And something tells me that if Musk came along and said "we're working on this," everyone would fall in step and start nodding agreeably about how sensible and revolutionary of an idea this is.

tomsang

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2016, 12:35:31 PM »
http://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/

Again this car is something that is done at a University patching together a budget from sponsors.

"The car is fully road worthy in The Netherlands and even comes with Dutch license plates. Also it has all the 'luxury' you would expect from a family car, including storage for purchases."

"On a sunny day and on a full charge, the EV has a range of 1000 km (!), with a maximum speed of 125km/h. The solar array can charge the complete battery pack in about 10 hours. A direct charge from the grid takes about 6.5hrs."

This badboy has cupholders:)
"Stella Lux has a total weight of only 380 kilo. Interesting fact is that, despite the light weight, they've included lots of small details in the car, such as cupholders and mid-console part, that were 3D printed."

boarder42

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2016, 12:36:00 PM »
i feel like this is turning into an invest vs pay off your mortgage debate.  where the people on the side of hope are emotionally involved in something thats mathmatically wrong.

Jack

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2016, 12:41:56 PM »
Are you still sticking with that it is theoretically impossible?

For a car that can carry four people and their cargo, can achieve a good crash safety rating, has heating and air conditioning, and can cross mountain passes on I-70 in Colorado at night, while keeping up with traffic (and do all those things at the same time)? YES!

Did you also feel that way 15 years ago when someone said that a Tesla or Leaf were possible?

No, because electric cars charged from the grid have always been relatively feasible.

(I say "relatively," because even the Tesla or Leaf would have much better range and much lower "recharging" time if they stored their energy as hydrocarbons instead of in a battery! The reality is that even the "successful" Teslas and Leafs are still niche products.)

Moreover, there is no fundamental limit determining the energy storage of the batteries we have now. Even if somebody proved that chemical batteries could not be improved versus the best battery tech today (or 15 years ago), we've always known that other kinds of energy storage (again, hydrocarbons -- or nuclear) with far greater densities are possible, and that it's generally possible to convert other forms of energy into electricity to drive an electric car. From that standpoint, electric cars have always been "possible."

Solar irradiance, on the other hand, is a fundamental limit.

Will we need airbags 30 years from now when all cars are autonomous and there hasn't been an accident in a decade?

That depends: will we have exterminated all the deer, dogs, small children, and everything else that can jump into your path and cause an accident that even an autonomous car can't avoid by then?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 12:44:33 PM by Jack »

zephyr911

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2016, 12:45:42 PM »
Using that article to prove your point is like using this article to say we should expect gasoline cars to get >2500 miles per gallon.

I think you missed my point.  My point was people were saying that it was not theoretically possible to develop a car that 100% ran on solar, ever.  Not today, not 10 years from now, but forever it is impossible to develop a car that runs 100% on solar.  Per Steviesterno's quip, "eventually cars will be covered in solar panels so you just charge as you drive and wherever you are parked. that will be sweet. road trip? Just go when it's sunny and run forever."

To me that seems crazy that people are saying something is 100% impossible when the vehicle currently exists.  Now, I am getting jabs that it is made out of fiber composite and aluminum and it is unaffordable.  We aren't talking about going to the local car dealer and picking up one today.  Steviesterno said eventually.  In which people were giving all the formulas on why it was not possible.  Which is bizarre to me when I linked a car that does exactly what Steviesterno described.  Cost will drop considerable as the vehicle is designed and built by automation.  3d printing is opening up efficiencies that could not be imagined 30 years ago and we are just at the infancy of the technology.     
I think we get your point, and I don't think you're accurately representing the rebuttals above.

Nobody is saying it's impossible to run a car 100% on solar. We're saying mass-market consumer vehicles cannot meet their instantaneous energy requirements from solar, and can only get enough energy in a day for a short/medium commute, as opposed to a long road trip. The math is there.

What was theorized above does not currently exist in a form that would be useful to a consumer, and in all likelihood cannot exist.

BUT, the good news is, it really doesn't matter, because EVs would still need substantial batteries as buffers for power output, for overnight driving, and for various other things, and because grid power really isn't that bad of a thing - in fact, EVs are being smartened up to act as grid-tied storage when not in use. More interconnection, not less, is the way of the future.

zephyr911

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2016, 12:54:39 PM »
There's definitely a lot of Old Man Thinking going on here. All of the rationalizations about why practical solar cars won't work were still being used to denigrate electric cars just a few years ago. They won't have the range, they can't be charged, they'll be all battery, they won't be safe, they won't carry more than one person, they'll look hideous, people won't buy them, etc. And all the naysayers were wrong.

You guys who are saying practical solar won't happen are the electric naysayers; you just don't realize it because you've conveniently set your threshold for what's possible at exactly where you are right now...which is what every naysayer of human progress has ever done. And something tells me that if Musk came along and said "we're working on this," everyone would fall in step and start nodding agreeably about how sensible and revolutionary of an idea this is.
I am about as optimistic a proponent of solar as you will ever find, and I'm all for exploiting its full potential in every realistic application, but most of the wishful thinking about directly powering cars from solar panels on those cars is based on complete ignorance of physics. Let's be clear: I'm not rejecting the idea categorically, just the rampant failure to grasp its basic limitations, which leads to incredibly silly speculation about the end state of the technology.
Even most fanatical EV devotees will tell you there's just not much value added with vehicle-mounted solar once you have mature battery technology and established EVSE infrastructure. The better the batteries get, the less often you need to charge, and the less advantage there is to picking some up en route. Will I take it? Sure, if it's super cheap and doesn't add too much weight. But the marginal utility is already pretty small, and will only become more so in time. Over our lifetimes, power is likely to get cheaper with the rollout of renewables, not more expensive. Over our lifetimes, the amount of energy you can carry in the car without making it heavy and expensive will expand dramatically. See where I'm going? At some point, it's just not worth the hassle of bolting and wiring that panel in. When you can charge overnight for a few bucks and drive for a thousand miles, nobody cares about that extra 10 or 20 miles coming from yet another system that has to be installed and maintained.
/ramble

tomsang

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2016, 12:56:48 PM »
That depends: will we have exterminated all the deer, dogs, small children, and everything else that can jump into your path and cause an accident that even an autonomous car can't avoid by then?

No you will have a sensor array that can steer or stop you from hitting anything.  Kind of like the rudimentary sensor that are on the Google cars, but they will have 20-30 years to improve them.  Considering they are improving on an exponential basis over the past decade it will be pretty cool to see what they are like 30 years from today.

Jack

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2016, 01:07:23 PM »
Nobody is saying it's impossible to run a car 100% on solar. We're saying mass-market consumer vehicles cannot meet their instantaneous energy requirements from solar, and can only get enough energy in a day for a short/medium commute, as opposed to a long road trip. The math is there.

Exactly. It would have made zero sense whatsoever for me to claim that not even a bicycle-like experimental vehicle were possible because I've known of the existence of the Sunraycer etc. and the World Solar Challenge ever since I was a small child. In fact, I'm as far as you can get from "Old Man Thinking" -- I've been wishing a practical solar car could exist for 25 years now! But the math just doesn't work out. I agree, it sucks! But I don't think I'm wrong.

That depends: will we have exterminated all the deer, dogs, small children, and everything else that can jump into your path and cause an accident that even an autonomous car can't avoid by then?

No you will have a sensor array that can steer or stop you from hitting anything.  Kind of like the rudimentary sensor that are on the Google cars, but they will have 20-30 years to improve them.  Considering they are improving on an exponential basis over the past decade it will be pretty cool to see what they are like 30 years from today.

LOL, sensors are not magical. Even if the sensor can react instantaneously, it still takes a non-zero amount of time for the mechanical friction of the braking system to slow the car, during which time it travels a non-zero distance. It will always be possible for an obstruction to block the car's path suddenly enough that a collision can not be prevented or avoided.

Shitty high-efficiency (aka low traction) skinny tires only make braking distances longer (and/or make swerving to avoid obstacles more difficult), exacerbating the problem, by the way.

To get collisions down to "negligible" (since "zero" is literally impossible), you'd really need to redesign the entire road network to resemble a fenced-off railway.

savingstldad

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2016, 01:07:31 PM »
Since we're so deep in the solar debate, I'll bring up solar roadways.

http://www.solarroadways.com/

If these were widely deployed, it doesn't seem impossible to have cars that connect to the solar roadway for power.  I know this doesn't fit the "cars with solar panels" argument, but is a way to make "on the fly" solar travel possible.

On a side note, I'd much rather have a solar driveway installed at my home instead of solar panels on the roof.  They need to hurry up and make these for the mass market!

And also, in case anyone isn't aware of the possibilities, here's a somewhat silly short video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlTA3rnpgzU

Chris22

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2016, 01:10:38 PM »
To get collisions down to "negligible" (since "zero" is literally impossible), you'd really need to redesign the entire road network to resemble a fenced-off railway.

And here in Chicagoland trains hit something basically every week.

Jack

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2016, 01:13:17 PM »
Since we're so deep in the solar debate, I'll bring up solar roadways.

http://www.solarroadways.com/

If these were widely deployed, it doesn't seem impossible to have cars that connect to the solar roadway for power.  I know this doesn't fit the "cars with solar panels" argument, but is a way to make "on the fly" solar travel possible.

Aside from the "solar" part, we've had the technology to do that since 1880. Sources of electricity are fungible, unless you're trying to carry them around with you.

savingstldad

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2016, 01:32:18 PM »
Right, so the point is, if you have powered roadways(solar in this case), you don't have to carry the power with you.

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove by saying we've had the tech to power roads for over 100 years.  Yes, we've had the tech to do a lot of things for over 100 years, yet a lot of those things still don't exist.

boarder42

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2016, 01:34:12 PM »
Jack its math this is emotional you wouldnt understand.

GuitarStv

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2016, 01:44:20 PM »
So uh . . . I think the new teslas are a great step in the right direction.  As one of those weird people who likes small, efficient cars and rarely needs to drive more than 200 miles a week.

savingstldad

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2016, 01:44:45 PM »
Personally, I'm looking forward to a time when we'll all get around on our own personal drones, no roads required!

RWD

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2016, 01:53:01 PM »
So uh . . . I think the new teslas are a great step in the right direction.  As one of those weird people who likes small, efficient cars and rarely needs to drive more than 200 miles a week.
Agreed. The more electric vehicle options that are available the better.

boarder42

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2016, 02:18:42 PM »
sweet bak on topic. yeah easily the most revolutionary thing in my lifetime. 

LastoftheMohicans

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2016, 02:20:31 PM »
eventually cars will be covered in solar panels so you just charge as you drive and wherever you are parked. that will be sweet. road trip? Just go when it's sunny and run forever.

That will never be possible. The ratio of the car's surface area to the amount of energy it requires is too low. Even if you had a car that used the same amount of energy as a Geo Metro or large motorcycle but had the surface area of a tour bus and was completely covered in 100% efficient solar panels, it still wouldn't be enough.
If the 40% efficient solar panels being used on ISS could be put on a stationwagon, rather than the 20% best of current market panels, you might be able to several kwh or more per day. Also, if you could layer them and have an intelligent positioning and expansion mechanism, you could add even more. Not really possible or practical with today's technology i think.

Chris22

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2016, 02:21:29 PM »
I'm very interested to see the Model 3, but I'm also wary that the really cool ones I'd actually want will be 50%+ more than the $35k initial price.  The Model S starts at like $60k, but the really cool ones with the Insane mode and all that are over $100k.

Spitfire

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2016, 02:31:50 PM »
Fully solar may not be practical, but I wonder how many miles of recharge you could get from adding solar. Even 30 miles a day would be sufficient for many people to not have to plug in often. 

Guses

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2016, 02:35:23 PM »
I'm very interested to see the Model 3, but I'm also wary that the really cool ones I'd actually want will be 50%+ more than the $35k initial price.  The Model S starts at like $60k, but the really cool ones with the Insane mode and all that are over $100k.

Pfffft. You will never be "Cool" with a Model 3. Get the S with the Insane package or GTFO.

But then again, how does this relate to the price of Tea in China?

Jack

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2016, 02:44:13 PM »
sweet bak on topic. yeah easily the most revolutionary thing in my lifetime.

Really? Were you born after the invention of the Internet?

If the 40% efficient solar panels being used on ISS could be put on a stationwagon, rather than the 20% best of current market panels, you might be able to several kwh or more per day.

Sure, no argument here. The problem is that "several kWh per day" means "less than one kwh per hour" (unless you define "several" as "more than 24"), or simplified, "less than one kilowatt." You actually need several dozen times more power than that to run any sort of reasonable car. Remember, even a 1940s VW Beetle had a 25kW engine, and modern economy cars are more like 75+ kW.

Another way to compare is to consider that the Nissan Leaf has a 30 kWh battery. We agree that you could charge "several" kWh using solar panels... but where are you going to get the other 25+?

Fully solar may not be practical, but I wonder how many miles of recharge you could get from adding solar. Even 30 miles a day would be sufficient for many people to not have to plug in often. 

Continuing the reasoning above, let's assume "several" means "three." That means, on a Leaf, you could charge the battery 3 kWh / 30 kWh = 10%, which implies you'd get 10% of the range. According to the EPA, a fully-charged leaf has a range of 107 miles, so 10% of that is 10 miles -- still a factor of three short of your "30 miles a day" requirement.

Chris22

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2016, 02:44:55 PM »
I'm very interested to see the Model 3, but I'm also wary that the really cool ones I'd actually want will be 50%+ more than the $35k initial price.  The Model S starts at like $60k, but the really cool ones with the Insane mode and all that are over $100k.

Pfffft. You will never be "Cool" with a Model 3. Get the S with the Insane package or GTFO.

But then again, how does this relate to the price of Tea in China?

Uh, this is a thread about the Model 3, and I'm speculating on the Model 3, so...


There's also cool, which is what I care about (not for others' perception, I care about what I consider cool), but more importantly, range is also heavily dependent on price for the Model S.  I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when they find out they can get a 300 mile per charge Model 3, or a $35k Model 3, but not a $35k 300 mile-per-charge Model 3.  That's like to be more like $65k. 

Jack

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2016, 02:49:56 PM »
Pfffft. You will never be "Cool" with a Model 3. Get the S with the Insane package or GTFO.

Am I the only one who thinks the Roadster was the "cool" Tesla, even if the Model S is better?

Exprezchef

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2016, 02:50:09 PM »
We did a quick trip up to Yosemite National Park for the Easter break and on Monday saw three car carriers full of Model X's headed southbound on I-5 near Valencia, CA. On the way back down yesterday, I actually saw one driving on the road headed the same way. My wife and I were surprised that the cars would be transported in an open carrier and not a closed one. Probably getting them ready for delivery today for the pre-orders? Now that I have seen one in the wild, I'm not sure about the styling and the "gull" wing doors I think are just a gimmick. Why not just keep it simple?  JMHO
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 04:39:21 PM by Exprezchef »

Chris22

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2016, 02:54:52 PM »
Pfffft. You will never be "Cool" with a Model 3. Get the S with the Insane package or GTFO.

Am I the only one who thinks the Roadster was the "cool" Tesla, even if the Model S is better?

Roadster was kinda cool, but I'd rather have the Elise it's based on.  Model S is beautiful, the Roadster was sorta ungainly.

RWD

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2016, 02:56:50 PM »
sweet bak on topic. yeah easily the most revolutionary thing in my lifetime.

Really? Were you born after the invention of the Internet?

The internet can be traced back to 1969, at least. The term "internet" was first officially used in 1974. TCP/IP was standardized in 1982. You don't have to be that young to be born after the invention of the Internet.

Now the World Wide Web, that was 1990. Though that's still over 25 years ago.


We did a quick trip up to Yosemite National Park for the Easter break and on Monday saw three car carriers full of Model 3's headed southbound on I-5 near Valencia, CA. On the way back down yesterday, I actually saw one driving on the road headed the same way. My wife and I were surprised that the cars would be transported in an open carrier and not a closed one. Probably getting them ready for delivery today for the pre-orders? Now that I have seen one in the wild, I'm not sure about the styling and the "gull" wing doors I think are just a gimmick. Why not just keep it simple?  JMHO

Are you sure you don't mean Model X's?

savingstldad

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2016, 02:58:28 PM »
I think those were obviously Model X's, since the model 3 isn't shipping until late 2017 or even 2018.

Travis

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2016, 03:29:09 PM »
For the hypothetical solar calculations, is there a standard or equation where so many kilowatts are required to move so many pounds of car so many miles per hour for so many hours?  If you have that plus an X% efficient panel size you could calculate how much energy you could squeeze out of what is probably going to be a fixed surface area amount.  Knowing that there ought to be a way to determine whether an all-solar car is theoretically feasible, and if not, how much the system could add to an electric vehicle's range like Spitfire mentioned.  It could be a nice backup at some later level of PV efficiency, or just not worth the added weight and expense.

tomsang

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #86 on: March 31, 2016, 03:57:20 PM »
For the hypothetical solar calculations, is there a standard or equation where so many kilowatts are required to move so many pounds of car so many miles per hour for so many hours?  If you have that plus an X% efficient panel size you could calculate how much energy you could squeeze out of what is probably going to be a fixed surface area amount.  Knowing that there ought to be a way to determine whether an all-solar car is theoretically feasible, and if not, how much the system could add to an electric vehicle's range like Spitfire mentioned.  It could be a nice backup at some later level of PV efficiency, or just not worth the added weight and expense.

You would have to figure out what the minimum weight could be, engine efficiency, storage efficiency, solar cell efficiency, etc.

Here are the Specs from the fully feasible four passenger car from Stella Lux, http://www.topspeed.com/cars/others/2016-stella-lux-ar170346.html

So I think you would take these specs and project out how much more efficient each component can become with future technology and research and development. 

Quick rundown of the specs:
Length 178 inches
Width 69 inches
Height 44 inches
Weight 826 pounds
Battery Capacity 15 kWh
Motor Efficiency 97 percent
Range on sunny day (Netherlands) 621 miles
Range on sunny day (Australia) 683 miles
Range at night (on battery) 403 miles
Top Speed 77 mph
Solar Cells 381
Cell Surface Area 86 square feet

 P.S. It still cracks me up when we are talking about hypothetical, theoretical, feasible car when one currently exists and they are improving it daily.

Exprezchef

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #87 on: March 31, 2016, 04:40:40 PM »
sweet bak on topic. yeah easily the most revolutionary thing in my lifetime.

Really? Were you born after the invention of the Internet?

The internet can be traced back to 1969, at least. The term "internet" was first officially used in 1974. TCP/IP was standardized in 1982. You don't have to be that young to be born after the invention of the Internet.

Now the World Wide Web, that was 1990. Though that's still over 25 years ago.


We did a quick trip up to Yosemite National Park for the Easter break and on Monday saw three car carriers full of Model 3's headed southbound on I-5 near Valencia, CA. On the way back down yesterday, I actually saw one driving on the road headed the same way. My wife and I were surprised that the cars would be transported in an open carrier and not a closed one. Probably getting them ready for delivery today for the pre-orders? Now that I have seen one in the wild, I'm not sure about the styling and the "gull" wing doors I think are just a gimmick. Why not just keep it simple?  JMHO

Are you sure you don't mean Model X's?

I meant to say Model X...sorry. fixed in my original post :)

MilesTeg

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2016, 05:01:32 PM »
There will never, ever be an EV that charges from solr panels that are integrated into the existing car surfaces.

The optimal energy delivery of the sun (Solar Constant) is about 1,400W/m^2. That's as measured by satellites outside the atmosphere with a surface that is perfectly perpendicular to the light rays. On the ground at sea level the sun delivers about 250W/m^2, on average (taking into account average cloud cover, average sun angle, etc). A Honda Fit (small car) has a top down surface area of about 6.5 m^2. So assuming a spherical co.. err a totally flat car that is always optimally aligned to the sun with 100% efficient solar conversion, that's 1.6KW. Assuming a 90KwH battery (enough to give you roughly the range of a gas car) it would take 56 hours to charge the battery to full.

The most efficient solar cells in the lab right now are about 40% efficient. So even assuming those lab cells make it to consumer space in an economical way, that puts us at 56/.4 = 140 hours to charge the car. Assuming you're near the equinox (12 hours of light a day) that's roughly 12 days of charging. And that's still assuming the car is flat, perfectly clean and can devote 100% of it's surface area to solar collection. In other words, that still a gross over estimate.

That said, EVs are the future. Just not EVs that charge with integrated solar panels.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 05:05:22 PM by MilesTeg »

Chaplin

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2016, 06:10:33 PM »
Come on! I haven't seen a single person on this site admit they put a deposit down this morning (not that I've searched exhaustively, especially since the search function still doesn't work). Scared of the facepunches?

Ok, I'll be first. I stood in line this morning and put my $1000 deposit down. Will I follow through and get the car? I don't know, but probably. Right now it's hypothetical. The deposit is refundable and you have over two years to make a decision (you can defer finalizing your order once).

It was fun to be a part of the crowd this morning. I would never line up for a new phone, a concert ticket, a movie premiere ticket, and neither would most of the people in that line. It was a line up of people with lots of different motivations, but very few were of the "shiny new thing" variety. I probably could have enjoyed having a chat with any of them.

Chaplin

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #90 on: March 31, 2016, 06:20:12 PM »
Maybe a pool on whether MMM made a deposit is in order!

He did mention coveting at Model S but resisting the temptation due to not driving much anyway. That reminds me of an article way back that made the point that when the Prius was production-limited the greatest benefit would be reserving them for taxi fleets rather than the person who already only drove 10,000 miles or less.

RWD

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2016, 06:35:33 PM »
Maybe a pool on whether MMM made a deposit is in order!

He did mention coveting at Model S but resisting the temptation due to not driving much anyway. That reminds me of an article way back that made the point that when the Prius was production-limited the greatest benefit would be reserving them for taxi fleets rather than the person who already only drove 10,000 miles or less.

Pretty sure he's buying a Nissan Leaf.
From one of his comments: "...in my own upcoming article on buying a car from Craigslist, it’ll be a Nissan Leaf."

JLee

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #92 on: March 31, 2016, 06:42:04 PM »
sweet bak on topic. yeah easily the most revolutionary thing in my lifetime.

Really? Were you born after the invention of the Internet?

The internet can be traced back to 1969, at least. The term "internet" was first officially used in 1974. TCP/IP was standardized in 1982. You don't have to be that young to be born after the invention of the Internet.

Now the World Wide Web, that was 1990. Though that's still over 25 years ago.


We did a quick trip up to Yosemite National Park for the Easter break and on Monday saw three car carriers full of Model 3's headed southbound on I-5 near Valencia, CA. On the way back down yesterday, I actually saw one driving on the road headed the same way. My wife and I were surprised that the cars would be transported in an open carrier and not a closed one. Probably getting them ready for delivery today for the pre-orders? Now that I have seen one in the wild, I'm not sure about the styling and the "gull" wing doors I think are just a gimmick. Why not just keep it simple?  JMHO

Are you sure you don't mean Model X's?

And the electric car was invented in 1834.  Date of invention isn't remotely as relevant as "date of usefulness."

tomsang

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2016, 06:43:31 PM »
There will never, ever be an EV that charges from solr panels that are integrated into the existing car surfaces.

These quotes are just bizarre to me when there currently is a car that does this.  It may not be a financially economical car, but there is a car that is a fully functional sedan that can get 100% of it's energy from the sun and drive like 250+ miles a day during the summer. 

Have you checked out any of these articles?   http://www.topspeed.com/cars/others/2016-stella-lux-ar170346.html

Regarding solar efficiencies, there was minimal investment up until the past decade or so.  Since 2000, the peak has gone from 32 to 46% efficiencies or about 44% improvement in the past 15 years.  It will be interesting to see how high it will go.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/PVeff%28rev160309%29.jpg



Paul der Krake

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #94 on: March 31, 2016, 06:45:18 PM »
The hype for Tesla's product is crazy. The press coverage of this unveiling rivals an Apple product launch. This article from the daily beast paints a much bleaker picture.

Watching on the side lines for now.

aceyou

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #95 on: March 31, 2016, 06:46:50 PM »
Come on! I haven't seen a single person on this site admit they put a deposit down this morning (not that I've searched exhaustively, especially since the search function still doesn't work). Scared of the facepunches?

Ok, I'll be first. I stood in line this morning and put my $1000 deposit down. Will I follow through and get the car? I don't know, but probably. Right now it's hypothetical. The deposit is refundable and you have over two years to make a decision (you can defer finalizing your order once).

It was fun to be a part of the crowd this morning. I would never line up for a new phone, a concert ticket, a movie premiere ticket, and neither would most of the people in that line. It was a line up of people with lots of different motivations, but very few were of the "shiny new thing" variety. I probably could have enjoyed having a chat with any of them.


Good for you.  I can't currently justify it because I'm at the start of building towards FI. It would push me back a whole year of savings to do it. 

However, I believe there are some times when optimizing for dollars isn't optimal.  People making choices like you are helping spur on the research/growth/infrastructure needed to keep these important advances happening. 

In a couple years I hope to get solar panels on my roof despite the fact that VTSAS would probably be a slightly better allocation of the funds from a strictly dollars/cents approach.  And within 10 years I hope to buy a used electric car to plug into the solar powered house.  The environmental side of me would like to do all of this now.  I'm trying to find a balance, and it's a hard balance to find. 

Good luck and make sure to make a post if you do end up getting one, I'd love to see it!!

boarder42

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2016, 07:19:14 PM »
There will never, ever be an EV that charges from solr panels that are integrated into the existing car surfaces.

These quotes are just bizarre to me when there currently is a car that does this.  It may not be a financially economical car, but there is a car that is a fully functional sedan that can get 100% of it's energy from the sun and drive like 250+ miles a day during the summer. 

Have you checked out any of these articles?   http://www.topspeed.com/cars/others/2016-stella-lux-ar170346.html

Regarding solar efficiencies, there was minimal investment up until the past decade or so.  Since 2000, the peak has gone from 32 to 46% efficiencies or about 44% improvement in the past 15 years.  It will be interesting to see how high it will go.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/PVeff%28rev160309%29.jpg

Stop quoting the same article over and over. It's not a practical solution to getting energy into a car.

Travis

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2016, 07:28:15 PM »
For the hypothetical solar calculations, is there a standard or equation where so many kilowatts are required to move so many pounds of car so many miles per hour for so many hours?  If you have that plus an X% efficient panel size you could calculate how much energy you could squeeze out of what is probably going to be a fixed surface area amount.  Knowing that there ought to be a way to determine whether an all-solar car is theoretically feasible, and if not, how much the system could add to an electric vehicle's range like Spitfire mentioned.  It could be a nice backup at some later level of PV efficiency, or just not worth the added weight and expense.

You would have to figure out what the minimum weight could be, engine efficiency, storage efficiency, solar cell efficiency, etc.

Here are the Specs from the fully feasible four passenger car from Stella Lux, http://www.topspeed.com/cars/others/2016-stella-lux-ar170346.html

So I think you would take these specs and project out how much more efficient each component can become with future technology and research and development. 

Quick rundown of the specs:
Length 178 inches
Width 69 inches
Height 44 inches
Weight 826 pounds
Battery Capacity 15 kWh
Motor Efficiency 97 percent
Range on sunny day (Netherlands) 621 miles
Range on sunny day (Australia) 683 miles
Range at night (on battery) 403 miles
Top Speed 77 mph
Solar Cells 381
Cell Surface Area 86 square feet

 P.S. It still cracks me up when we are talking about hypothetical, theoretical, feasible car when one currently exists and they are improving it daily.

Street legal that provides the same utility and safety features as other cars on the road today? Your Stella isn't there yet.  It is a car and it does run entirely on solar.  It also runs on motorcycle tires and doesn't look like it would hold up well in a wreck.  We know nothing about safety, acceleration, inclines, braking, adverse weather, amenities, and cost.  We don't know these things because the Stella is basically a lab prototype.  There are so many unknowns before we can call this a viable car.  If the car can't affordably be made in all carbon-fiber, then it will get much heavier.  I was surmising there might be a max amount of energy that can be produced that still won't be enough to push a car if it approaches conventional weights.  Could 90% efficient PVs (probably never happen) covering 86 square feet move the car if it weighed 1500 pounds, had regular tires, an A/C, and full of people and cargo?  That would be a more appropriate comparison.

MilesTeg

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2016, 07:47:11 PM »
There will never, ever be an EV that charges from solr panels that are integrated into the existing car surfaces.

These quotes are just bizarre to me when there currently is a car that does this.  It may not be a financially economical car, but there is a car that is a fully functional sedan that can get 100% of it's energy from the sun and drive like 250+ miles a day during the summer. 

Have you checked out any of these articles?   http://www.topspeed.com/cars/others/2016-stella-lux-ar170346.html

Regarding solar efficiencies, there was minimal investment up until the past decade or so.  Since 2000, the peak has gone from 32 to 46% efficiencies or about 44% improvement in the past 15 years.  It will be interesting to see how high it will go.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/PVeff%28rev160309%29.jpg

Apples != Oranges

The Stella is effectively a giant solar panel with wheels and a motor. It is in no way equivalent to an actual functional street vehicle.

sol

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Re: Tesla 3 Unveiled
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2016, 08:13:14 PM »
There has been a lot of arguing over technicalities in this thread.  Any car that is 100% electric can be 100% solar powered, no matter where those panels are located.

Putting panels on a moving vehicle wouldn't be terribly efficient, but neither would it be useless.  If you're the type of person who only uses their car to get to church on Sundays, that might be all the power you need.  For everyone else, just quickcharge for 30 minutes when you're on the go, or overnight when you're not.  No big deal.

My Nissan Leaf uses less power than my home's solar panels generate as surplus.  Except that my car charges at night, in a garage, when my panels aren't generating.  Good thing electrons are all identical.

Most vehicles (excepting taxis and cop cars) spend 95% of their lives stationary.  So for most of us, electric charging seems like an easy solution.  Charge when you park, and never visit a gas station again.

As for those of you who dislike the looks of current EVs, I'm not sure what you're problem is.  Do you really choose a vehicle based solely on appearance?  The Leaf was kind of funky looking when it first came out, and now that the design is five years old it's still kind of funky looking so I think it's actually held up remarkably well.  A five year old Civic already looks dated.