Author Topic: Talk to me about Stoicism  (Read 5604 times)

StarBright

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Talk to me about Stoicism
« on: June 21, 2018, 11:07:44 AM »
I'm at a place in life where I sort of need to keep my head down and push through for a bit.

I've worked my situation through, over and over (in my head and with a therapist) and I'm not really in a place where I can make big changes so I need to get through it.

I'm looking for suggested readings, exercises, workbooks, whatever on stoicism or anything else where the focus is on dealing the hand you've been dealt.

On the upside - finances are in a great place!

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 11:43:33 AM by StarBright »

mxt0133

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 12:28:22 PM »
I practiced Stoicism heavily when I first discovered FIRE.  I would practice intentional discomfort, negative visualization, and circle of control.  They were the ones that helped me stay focused on my financial goals and have a general feeling of contentment.  It helped me get through some tough times with work and personal matters and might work for you as well.

However, over time I have been identifying more with Buddhist practices of mindfulness and detachment from ego/expectations.  I am at a different place now where my anxiety and worries were getting worse even though I am in a much more secure position in terms of finances.  Basically I kept trying to fix problems the could potentially happen in the future and it was causing suffering now.  First it was my career, then finances, then health, then relationships, and on and on, without end.  Being mindful has significantly changed how I preceive the world and allow me to enjoy life much more fully without the constant worry and anxiety in the background.

If Stoicism doesn't help you I would recommend practicing mindfulness.


undercover

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 12:44:31 PM »
Stoicism isn’t just trying to better deal with or intentionally experience bad situations - it’s about being indifferent to the situation entirely whether it be pleasurable or miserable. So if you view yourself in a “miserable” situation, you are clearly fixated on the fact that there must be a better state of being than what you’re in now. It’s about finding how to be distracted or just not care about whether you’re feeling “bad” or “good” so that you just trudge through this short existence regardless.

A Guide to the Good Life is a great book.

StarBright

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2018, 01:02:14 PM »
Stoicism isn’t just trying to better deal with or intentionally experience bad situations - it’s about being indifferent to the situation entirely whether it be pleasurable or miserable. So if you view yourself in a “miserable” situation, you are clearly fixated on the fact that there must be a better state of being than what you’re in now. It’s about finding how to be distracted or just not care about whether you’re feeling “bad” or “good” so that you just trudge through this short existence regardless.

A Guide to the Good Life is a great book.
LOL - that sounds miserable :)

modifying to add - I wasn't trying to be snarky, but "trudge through this short existence" definitely doesn't sound super appealing. 

editing again to add - though perhaps trudging without anxiety is better than trudging with anxiety (which is how I currently feel :))
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 01:08:57 PM by StarBright »

sui generis

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2018, 01:06:22 PM »
PTF.  I've been wanting to explore both Stoicism and Mindfulness (esp. detachment) more.

StarBright

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2018, 01:06:41 PM »
I practiced Stoicism heavily when I first discovered FIRE.  I would practice intentional discomfort, negative visualization, and circle of control.  They were the ones that helped me stay focused on my financial goals and have a general feeling of contentment.  It helped me get through some tough times with work and personal matters and might work for you as well.

However, over time I have been identifying more with Buddhist practices of mindfulness and detachment from ego/expectations.  I am at a different place now where my anxiety and worries were getting worse even though I am in a much more secure position in terms of finances.  Basically I kept trying to fix problems the could potentially happen in the future and it was causing suffering now.  First it was my career, then finances, then health, then relationships, and on and on, without end.  Being mindful has significantly changed how I preceive the world and allow me to enjoy life much more fully without the constant worry and anxiety in the background.

If Stoicism doesn't help you I would recommend practicing mindfulness.

thanks @mxt0133  - I have flirted with mindfulness in the past but have had a hard time getting through the anxiety to it.  I may start reading about it again. Any recs for where to start?

Schaefer Light

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018, 01:09:25 PM »
Basically I kept trying to fix problems the could potentially happen in the future and it was causing suffering now.
That has been a major issue for me.  I think that's where negative visualization caused me some problems.  I was already doing too much negative visualization even before I learned about Stoicism.  Every day I would imagine losing my job, not being able to find work, and having serious financial difficulties.  Then I would imagine what that would be like if I had a family to support and my wife was a stay at home parent.  That made me change my mind about wanting kids because I didn't think I could handle the pressure I would feel from being the sole source of income.  I guess it's good to do some planning for possible negative scenarios, but when you're thinking about that type of stuff every day it can do more harm than good.

OrangeSnapDragon

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018, 01:09:35 PM »
Agreed that 'A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy' is an excellent book.  It talk in the beginning about the history of Stoicism which some people may find annoying, I enjoyed it.

I've struggled with the 'keep your head down and do the work' a lot.  Without knowing more I couldn't say if this extra advise would truly help but... When my job was getting miserable I confronted my boss because I knew if it went terribly I could always get a new job, I have a 2nd income stream, and I have funds saved up.  It ended up being a very productive conversation and the environment has been much better. 

undercover

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2018, 01:18:51 PM »
"trudge through this short existence" definitely doesn't sound super appealing.  )

Well no one ever "signs up" for life. Life isn't always appealing. It's not always bad either. "Tedious and brief", a quote from the late John McLemore, is another way to look at it.

Schaefer Light

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2018, 01:24:28 PM »
Stoicism isn’t just trying to better deal with or intentionally experience bad situations - it’s about being indifferent to the situation entirely whether it be pleasurable or miserable. So if you view yourself in a “miserable” situation, you are clearly fixated on the fact that there must be a better state of being than what you’re in now. It’s about finding how to be distracted or just not care about whether you’re feeling “bad” or “good” so that you just trudge through this short existence regardless.

A Guide to the Good Life is a great book.

That was not my interpretation of Stoicism.  The books I read led me to believe that Stoics tried to enjoy the good times as much as anyone (while keeping in mind that they could come to an end at any time, thus you should enjoy them as much as you can right now).  They also didn't say anything about just trudging through life.  The Stoics believed in public service, helping others, and leading a virtuous life.  You're right that they talked about indifference, but I don't think their goal was to avoid enjoying the good things in life.  It was more about being indifferent to those things which are outside of our control.

solon

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2018, 01:38:55 PM »
I was surprised to find a heavy stoic influence in the writings of Paul the Apostle. It's in the context of Christianity, of course, but it's there nonetheless. It's all through Philippians 4, quoted below, but especially the bolded.

Quote
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way, dear friends!

I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid more than once when I was in need. Not that I desire your gifts; what I desire is that more be credited to your account. I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.

To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Greet all God’s people in Christ Jesus. The brothers and sisters who are with me send greetings. All God’s people here send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

ElizaStache

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 02:59:13 PM »
Stoicism has been one of those concepts that has been hard for me to practice in real life. PTF, but also, practicing mindfulness has been tremendously helpful to my mental health over the last few years as my therapist introduced methods to practicing it.

I'll see if I can find 'A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy'  at the library and other suggestions.

vern

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2018, 06:28:15 PM »
The books of Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius are free on the e-readers.  Give them a look.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 04:13:43 AM by vern »

use2betrix

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2018, 07:19:57 PM »
Another +1 for “A Guide to the Good Life.” I un-mustachingly purchased the audiobook. I’ve listened to it 3 times now.

kimmarg

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2018, 07:59:15 PM »
I'm at a place in life where I sort of need to keep my head down and push through for a bit.

I've worked my situation through, over and over (in my head and with a therapist) and I'm not really in a place where I can make big changes so I need to get through it.

I'm looking for suggested readings, exercises, workbooks, whatever on stoicism or anything else where the focus is on dealing the hand you've been dealt.

On the upside - finances are in a great place!

Thanks in advance.

I'm glad to hear you have a therapist to help with this. You say you can't make big changes, but can you make small changes? I find I gain a lot of power with quick breaks. 10 min walk at work when fighting something. Sitting in the garden for a few minutes enjoying the flowers.  I hate to say it on this forum but also (small amounts of) $$$ can help. For example I hate night shift and for every week I work nights I allow myself one trip to the coffee shop for a fancy coffee on the way in. It's not mustachian but I get a lot of psychological benefit from that $3 so I do it.

rubenq

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2018, 08:50:31 PM »
I'm at a place in life where I sort of need to keep my head down and push through for a bit.

I've worked my situation through, gmail sign up over and over (in my head and with a therapist) and I'm not really in a place where I can make big changes so I need to get through it.

I'm looking for suggested readings, 192.168.0.1 exercises, workbooks, whatever on stoicism or anything else where the focus is on dealing the hand you've been dealt.

On the upside - finances are in a great place!

Thanks in advance.

It's about the endurance of pain or hardship without a display of feelings and without complaint.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 12:38:20 AM by rubenq »

rdaneel0

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2018, 10:38:19 PM »
Another vote for A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy.

EmFrugal

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2018, 12:58:24 PM »
I just recently read "A Guide To The Good Life" and highly recommend it as well. From there I stubled upon The Daily Stoic blog (Ryan Holiday) and am now reading Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Both books can be checked out from the library. If you read Meditations, I recommend getting the most recently translated edition by Gregory Hays. I tried to read an older translation and found it cumbersome. It took the joy out of learning because I had to look up so many words.

mxt0133

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2018, 01:13:27 PM »
I practiced Stoicism heavily when I first discovered FIRE.  I would practice intentional discomfort, negative visualization, and circle of control.  They were the ones that helped me stay focused on my financial goals and have a general feeling of contentment.  It helped me get through some tough times with work and personal matters and might work for you as well.

However, over time I have been identifying more with Buddhist practices of mindfulness and detachment from ego/expectations.  I am at a different place now where my anxiety and worries were getting worse even though I am in a much more secure position in terms of finances.  Basically I kept trying to fix problems the could potentially happen in the future and it was causing suffering now.  First it was my career, then finances, then health, then relationships, and on and on, without end.  Being mindful has significantly changed how I preceive the world and allow me to enjoy life much more fully without the constant worry and anxiety in the background.

If Stoicism doesn't help you I would recommend practicing mindfulness.

thanks @mxt0133  - I have flirted with mindfulness in the past but have had a hard time getting through the anxiety to it.  I may start reading about it again. Any recs for where to start?

I started with the sub reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Mindfulness/.  Watched the introductory video, and listened to a few others from Alan Watts and Loch Kelly.  As for books the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle was a good introduction.  I'm currently reading 'The Wisdom of Insecutiry' by Alan Watts, it is much heavier read and I have to reread each chapter a few times.  As a beginner in mindfulness and the whole mind/ego/benign/awareness thing there a lot of profound passages in that book that I would mediate on for days. 

When you say anxiety, your expectations might be to much.  I would just try to approach it with an open mind.  Just a few weeks ago, I would have scoffed at the idea of meditating an hour a day and say that it won't help and that I don't have the time for it.  But it's what I now do daily and feel that it is as essential as breathing and eating. 

I let go of all expectations and just try to approach it with an open mind, what could it hurt to try right? And that is why I think it helped for me, something along the lines of the saying, when the student is ready the teacher will appear.

mxt0133

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2018, 01:20:17 PM »
Basically I kept trying to fix problems the could potentially happen in the future and it was causing suffering now.
That has been a major issue for me.  I think that's where negative visualization caused me some problems.  I was already doing too much negative visualization even before I learned about Stoicism.  Every day I would imagine losing my job, not being able to find work, and having serious financial difficulties.  Then I would imagine what that would be like if I had a family to support and my wife was a stay at home parent.  That made me change my mind about wanting kids because I didn't think I could handle the pressure I would feel from being the sole source of income.  I guess it's good to do some planning for possible negative scenarios, but when you're thinking about that type of stuff every day it can do more harm than good.

The way I understood negative visualization and practiced it was to make you appreciate and be content with what you had or your current situation.  It could be worse so imagining how your situation could be worse allowed you to appreciate and focus on the positives of your current situation so that you can have a clear mind.  Without the feeling of dread and despair, you are able to see the possibilities and opportunities.

If you use it to project all the things that can go wrong, that would just increase your level of fear, anxiety, and paralyze your form living your life.

BookLoverL

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2018, 02:52:26 PM »
Not sure about "where to start" if you mean you want an easily-accessible modern thing written to give you a general overview, but the main classical names in Stoicism are Epictetus (who spent a large portion of his life as a slave), Marcus Aurelius (who was the Roman emperor for a good while), and Seneca (who was a well-off citizen). All of their writing is available online if you google it, in English translation as well as in Latin.

big_slacker

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 10:21:36 PM »
I've read a few books on stoicism. IMO the person who clicks the most with me in terms of real life application is David Goggins. Google up on what he's done, but then listen to some of the podcasts he's been on. Most recently Joe Rogan's which has a lot of story and philosophy packaged up. He fully acknowledges that he was a piece of shit, coward, weak minded person (his words, not mine) but went on to be an avatar of unflinching honesty and mental toughness. I used some of his methods to prep for an ultra endurance event. It was physically the hardest thing I've ever done but mentally actually pretty easy and dare I say fun? despite a bunch of things going wrong.

Some of it is doing something every day that is uncomfortable and requires you to flex that growth muscle. Some of it is mental re-framing. From "This is so hard!" to "This is supposed to be hard and I've got a chance to prove to myself what I'm made of." A *LOT* of it is holding yourself accountable. Looking in the mirror and calling yourself out for not doing what you know you needed to do. This sounds like it might get negative but it's not when you HTFU and do what you need to do. Nothing like that feeling of waking up and having ZERO regrets because you did your hard work.

Maybe not for everyone? But worth examining as the dude is an inadvertent stoic deity.

aceyou

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2018, 06:23:14 PM »
Stoicism isn’t just trying to better deal with or intentionally experience bad situations - it’s about being indifferent to the situation entirely whether it be pleasurable or miserable. So if you view yourself in a “miserable” situation, you are clearly fixated on the fact that there must be a better state of being than what you’re in now. It’s about finding how to be distracted or just not care about whether you’re feeling “bad” or “good” so that you just trudge through this short existence regardless.

A Guide to the Good Life is a great book.
LOL - that sounds miserable :)

modifying to add - I wasn't trying to be snarky, but "trudge through this short existence" definitely doesn't sound super appealing. 

editing again to add - though perhaps trudging without anxiety is better than trudging with anxiety (which is how I currently feel :))


Haha, practicing stoic chiming in:)  I can see how it would look really bad when framed that way, but that's not what stoic's mean by being indifferent. 

Stoics are happy and energetic people who engage in the world. 

The indifference is more towards the things that we have little to no control over. 

Example...I'm a varsity coach at a large school.  Between all levels, I have about 200 kids that I oversee.  That's a lot of potential for a kid or their parent to express unhappiness with a decision that I make.  I've learned that when a parent or student is upset, I need to learn to be indifferent to how it makes me feel.  If the parent/child is justified, then I must apologize and try to rectify my mistake.  If they are being unreasonable, I have to explain my position the best I can, then continue about my life.  But either way, I have to be indifferent to how it will affect me emotionally, or I'll live a stressed and unhappy existence where I don't sleep at night.

Stoics don't face life with indifference.  They are engaged and care a great deal about things that they spend their time with.  However, we learn that 90% of the shit that comes our way can bounce right off us if we learn techniques to become indifferent to the shit. 


oldmachines

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2018, 08:34:53 PM »
The obstacle is the way.

sui generis

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2018, 09:16:47 PM »
This is probably too basic for this group, but the book "Antidote: Happiness for People Who Can't Stand Positive Thinking" introduced me to stoicism and was a fun listen (I borrowed the audiobook).  It's a great bridge to the topic for people that want to be introduced.

Lmoot

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2018, 04:36:53 AM »
Stoicism isn’t just trying to better deal with or intentionally experience bad situations - it’s about being indifferent to the situation entirely whether it be pleasurable or miserable. So if you view yourself in a “miserable” situation, you are clearly fixated on the fact that there must be a better state of being than what you’re in now. It’s about finding how to be distracted or just not care about whether you’re feeling “bad” or “good” so that you just trudge through this short existence regardless.

A Guide to the Good Life is a great book.

That was not my interpretation of Stoicism.  The books I read led me to believe that Stoics tried to enjoy the good times as much as anyone (while keeping in mind that they could come to an end at any time, thus you should enjoy them as much as you can right now).  They also didn't say anything about just trudging through life.  The Stoics believed in public service, helping others, and leading a virtuous life.  You're right that they talked about indifference, but I don't think their goal was to avoid enjoying the good things in life.  It was more about being indifferent to those things which are outside of our control.

Because they wouldn't be able to sell those books if they espoused the original visions of stoicism, which is the acknowledgement of pain and pleasure, but from an outside perspective. Not allowing the emotional result of either, to gauge action. It's helpful to a scientist or philosopher who's raison d'etre, depends on non-bias and logical, mindful thinking....at all times. For the rest of us, a life of stoicism would likely suck, if not for us then surely for our loved ones. Applying rational and mindful thinking to critical situations is certainly helpful...I just don't think it's stoicism.

oldmachines

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2018, 03:45:04 PM »
I think Brett does a really good job here of giving a quick, practical guide to using stoic practices to make your life better:

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/5-ancient-stoic-tactics-modern-life/

koshtra

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2018, 04:48:19 PM »
Stoicism is more a bunch of philosophical ideas about how to live a happy life than a bunch of fully worked out practices for transforming yourself into someone who can do it. The Stoics were interesting, and more right than wrong, but if I were looking for practical advice, I'd go to the established Buddhist monastic traditions, who have been in the business of training people continuously for some 2,500 years. A pretty rich source for practical advice, and actual daily exercises you can do. (Meditations, prayers, visualizations, all that sort of stuff.)

You don't have to believe in them or subscribe to their nutty cosmologies. But they're the folks who know how to do it. (Tons of value in all the contemplative traditions, really, but the Western ones tend to insist on commitments and affirmations that I can't manage.)

aceyou

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2018, 08:55:16 PM »
Stoicism is more a bunch of philosophical ideas about how to live a happy life than a bunch of fully worked out practices for transforming yourself into someone who can do it. The Stoics were interesting, and more right than wrong, but if I were looking for practical advice, I'd go to the established Buddhist monastic traditions, who have been in the business of training people continuously for some 2,500 years. A pretty rich source for practical advice, and actual daily exercises you can do. (Meditations, prayers, visualizations, all that sort of stuff.)

You don't have to believe in them or subscribe to their nutty cosmologies. But they're the folks who know how to do it. (Tons of value in all the contemplative traditions, really, but the Western ones tend to insist on commitments and affirmations that I can't manage.)

+1

Samuel

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Re: Talk to me about Stoicism
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2018, 09:25:26 AM »
I think Brett does a really good job here of giving a quick, practical guide to using stoic practices to make your life better:

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/5-ancient-stoic-tactics-modern-life/

Thanks. That's a very applicable summation.