Author Topic: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!  (Read 5726 times)

patrickza

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Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« on: October 28, 2015, 07:11:35 AM »
Yes, I need help. I've wanted a boat for years now, but knew it just wasn't prudent. I even went as far as doing my day skippers license two years ago but haven't sailed since.

Money wise, I'm FI for the life I have now. The post FIRE life I want though, could be variable, so I'm planning to work for at least 3 more years, which will also get my pension to a decent level so I never end up living in a cardboard box. That will take me to the wise old age of 39 years 364 days. I'd like to do a lot of traveling then, so it's hard to calculate costs. Part of that life includes me living on a boat and touring the islands/the med. My dream is to have a cruising Catamaran, so that my wife and I can go see the world. I can't wait!

So after looking at boats for over 2 years now, I've found one that ticks all my boxes. It's a Woods Sango, home built, like most Woods cats. It's the same type as this http://www.boat24.com/uk/Sail+Boats/Richard+Woods+Sango/detail/212281/ but it's not pink, and also not $27 000, the owner is asking for only $7000... I've done the research on these boats, and ignoring the hours needed to build one, it would cost twice that to get it finished.

Sadly the owner is too old to sail the boat after spending 5 years building it, so the equipment is practically new. That includes a dingy with trolling motor, an outboard, practically new sails etc. It has been on a mooring for a year now, so it's likely it'll need some painting and probably a little other work, transport to the nearest decently sized dam, plus I'd need to pay for a mooring around $300 a year. I'd estimate that in the first year it would cost me $10 000. Which in my terms is another two months worth of savings, or two months extra work. From then on the costs should drop to mooring and maintenance, and car costs for the clownish 140 mile round trip to get to the dam.

Amazingly for a smallish cat, it can sleep 6 quite comfortably. The table drops down to form an almost queen sized bed, and there are two single beds in the hulls, plus a toilet in one of them, so overnighting on the boat is definitely an option.

Also being trailerable helps, as the boat is about 300 miles from where I need it to be, and once I FIRE, I plan on moving it once more to the coast as I'm a poor land locked sucker.

Part of my FIRE life might include jobs I think are fun, and I though it would be fun having a summer job as being a sailing instructor, but to do that, I need to be a yacht master. Getting a yacht masters in South Africa will probably cost me $10 000 just getting enough ocean time, so having my own boat could save me that.

I know this is a big expense, but I know I can afford it. I'm trying to sell it to myself as a way to potentially make money, ie work as a sailing instructor post FIRE, and as a way to save money ie sailing sucks I'm not going to spend $100 000 plus on a big cat one day.

That said, my quest for FIRE will be longer with a boat than without, but more enjoyable (hopefully) with a boat. What am I to do???

Sibley

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 07:24:42 AM »
Well, I would never buy a boat. I get sea-sick on nice calm lakes, I don't even want to go on one! But, if you're willing and able to absorb the costs and you're sure you'd get sufficient use and enjoyment out of it to make it worthwhile, then go for it.

lthenderson

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 07:27:40 AM »
You do know that BOAT stands for Break Out Another Thousand.

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2015, 08:24:55 AM »
Ok, I am going to take the viewpoint that you should buy the boat.

  • You are FI
  • You have wanted this enough to get your day skippers license
  • You are getting a great deal
  • I can live vicariously thru you ;-)


Assuming you get your DW/SO's blessing,  go for it.

sfb

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2015, 08:33:24 AM »
I once owned a 25 foot monohull sailboat for a few years.  I paid $5000 for it, but my slip fees were $1500/year in the late 1990s on the Chesapeake Bay.  I bought new sails (main and genoa) for $2000 after my mainsail ripped.  I also had the boat hauled out ($300) and painted the bottom every spring and the antifouling paint/supplies were another $200ish.  One of the thru hull valves failed and the boat took on water.  Had to have an emergency haul out and I replaced the value (another $400ish even though I did the work myself).  One year hurricane Isabel flooded the bay with a 6+ foot storm surge and bent my motor bracket, which cost another $100ish in repairs.  I was lucky-many boats sank or were beached.  The price of the boat is the just the tip of the iceberg!

I enjoyed the boat at first, but it was nearly an hour away so I could only sail on weekends from April through November.  Many of the weekends had no wind and others involved maintenance and repairs so I really only sailed 4-5 times per year.  Then I bought a fixer upper house and did all the work myself so I had even less time to sail.  When my first daughter was on the way I decided to sell.  Fortunately the previous owner wanted the boat back because the 34 foot monohull he bought was too big.  So I got my $5000 back but lost the slip fees and other costs.

I once thought of building a Woods catamaran-I even considered the Sango.  But home built plywood boats have very poor resale value.  You may be stuck with it.  I almost bought a set of Farrier F-32 trimaran plans since his boats are built from foam and glass, have a loyal following, and therefore seem to hold their value.  I even built a garage to build the boat in!  But I could not justify the cost (about $70k) even if I did all the work myself.

I still want a boat, but only if I can spend most of my time on it-perhaps as a live aboard.  For now I race on a Lightning, an F-27 trimaran, and a J-30 monohull.  I also occasionally rent a Flying Scot or Sunfish and charter once every year or two in the Caribbean or Med.  I'm not sure how much you've sailed, but it may be more prudent to rent until you retire and can be closer to water full time.  Then you can satisfy your sailing urge and better learn what kind of boat you really want.

dcheesi

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2015, 08:35:00 AM »
The two happiest days in a boat-owners life: The day he buys it, and the day he sells it!

needmyfi

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2015, 09:52:09 AM »
The post FIRE life I want though, could be variable, Part of that life includes me living on a boat and touring the islands/the med. My dream is to have a cruising Catamaran, so that my wife and I can go see the world. I can't wait!
 I'd estimate that in the first year it would cost me $10 000.

Part of my FIRE life might include jobs I think are fun, and I though it would be fun having a summer job as being a sailing instructor, but to do that, I need to be a yacht master. Getting a yacht masters in South Africa will probably cost me $10 000 just getting enough ocean time, so having my own boat could save me that.

 What am I to do???


Buy a boat! Using your FI money to sail the Greek Isles?  Hell yeah.  It's not just some thing you want- a fancy sports car when you already have a nice car.  You've saved your money to sail the world and you need a boat to do that.  And as boats go this one sounds like a good deal.

 If it turns out to be a huge pain in the ass and a money pit you can sell it and be the wiser. Plus if you live on it, you can rent out your primary residence while you are gone if you want and recoup some of the cost.

 My husband and I paid $5000 for an airstream camper to see the US when we retire.  We also have a 1999 6 ton truck to haul the camper that we drive to the dump once a month. We keep it to travel.

  Mustachian to buy a boat and sail the world?  I argue yes.

Cookie78

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2015, 10:05:49 AM »
I'm not going to be very good for talking you out of buying the boat! It sounds like your dream. You've found a good deal and you are spending consciously. You are aware of the costs and aware of the risks. Go for it.

I also have sailing dreams. I used to want to sail around the world, and I took a few courses and practiced on some lakes nearby (I'm also landlocked). Part of my current FIRE dream, after the dog passes on, is to crew on sailboats as the opportunity arises while I'm traveling and exploring the world.

If you ever need someone to crew, hit me up. /quite serious
Maybe by then I'll have some real experience.

Posthumane

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2015, 10:12:36 AM »
Since this is not an impulse purchase but a carefully considered and long studied one, you are not sacrificing your financial well being, and it's something you plan to do in FI, I am also not going to talk you out of buying this boat. I think this is a great way to get into boat ownership and discover what it is you truly want. You may find that you hate the boat after a couple of years and want to get rid of it, in which case you're out a few bills and have to work a few extra months. You may find that you enjoy sailing so much that you want to do it full time, in which case you will have a better appreciation of what you really want/need in a boat and can change that as necessary.

Left

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2015, 11:17:34 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaRmkSHtTvw
is this the future you?

I see nothing wrong with it, you could always turn it into a tour business like video above

Fishindude

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2015, 11:45:52 AM »
If you are a boat guy, you ought to have a boat.
I've got five different boats, so can't talk you out of anything. 

BBub

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2015, 01:29:30 PM »
Yeah a nice boat ride is hard to beat. 

One potential workaround for a larger live-aboard is to go full time on the boat.  Maybe take the first year or two of FIRE, sell or rent your primary residence & move onto the boat. Then your boating/living expenses are consolidated.  By the way, the upfront cash outlay for this boat is strikingly low.  Of course that's only the tip of the iceberg on a large vessel, but still, $10k to get a boat like that up & running is next to nothing.  I say build up a little buffer & try it out.  If it doesn't work for you then take your loss and move on. 

The real question you should consider is what will happen if you don't try it.  If things don't go as planned, you can always make a little extra money / cut back / improvise to make your future goals work.  But if you have a life goal to cruise for a few years, work your ass off for decade(s) to save money, and never seize the opportunity.... then what's the point of FI anyway?

I'm sure you have seen it, but just in case.. check out bumfuzzle.com.  Young couple sold everything, bought a boat, circumnavigated the world & kept a lengthy blog throughout the entire 2 year journey.  They are still travelling the world by land & post regularly.

KCM5

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2015, 01:52:45 PM »
You should buy a boat.

But not yet - and is that the right boat for you?

If I were you I'd wait until I was done working, buy a live-aboard, and go from there. Otherwise it seems like your incurring a bunch of costs now with very little reward.

In fact, I too, plan on buying a boat for retirement. It will be a british narrowboat, so nothing like your sailboat. But yes, buy a boat (in the future)

Abe

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2015, 07:55:04 PM »
I'd consider joining a sailing club while still working. Even if this is an hour or two drive, you can gain more experience from others, and spread the cost of maintenance about all the club members. This is what I do since I'm working ~60hrs a week now, even though I live ~10 minutes from Lake Michigan. Once retired you will have more time to devote to the hobby, and time saves a lot of money with boat maintenance. After a few years as a club member you will have enough experience to do most work on your own boat. I doubt you will have enough time while working to enjoy the boat much, considering you haven't had time to sail in 2 years.

If you insist on owning a boat now, try to find a partnership. These are an economical way to own a larger boat with regards to time and money.

TheFrugalFox

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2015, 10:19:05 PM »
Like others, the point of retiring early is to be able to have the time to be able to do what you want - there would be no point otherwise. But sailing around the world is the point - make sure you not doing something just for the sake of doing something. Finishing that boat is probably a massive task on top of it not being that close to you.

I think getting you feet wet now is probably a good thing, joining a club and/or buying something smaller, needs no work and would be easier to sell might be the way to go for now. Taking a Hobie 16 to a new dam on weekends would be a laugh. Or buy a cheapish 21ft on harties - I thought you could get a shabby but working 21ft for R20 - R30K?

The when you retire, rent a flat at the sea for a year - (Simons Town or Langebaan would be nice) and spend all your time on your round the world dream boat. That said in your position, I would buy a more complete or completed boat - you do earn enough.

rocketpj

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2015, 10:25:40 PM »
I just sold my most recent sailboat this Spring, so I am not going to talk you out of it.  If you are FI and can afford it (all of it) then you should definitely buy a boat.  But be very careful of your first boat - typically boats are like houses.  The first one you buy because you like the pretty trim, the second one you are inspecting with a microscope before you even think of making an offer.

That said, NEVER buy a boat without a proper survey done.  Especially if it is surprisingly cheap, like your prospect seems to be.  Don't get target fixated - it is ALWAYS a buyer's market in boats, so another deal will come along if this one has issues.

Research the moorage costs where you live.  They can be substantial - they were by far the biggest line item for us.  Assume about 10% of the avg. cost of your boat for maintenance - not every year, but some years will stack up a lot (i.e. you need a new sail and your motor dies).  You can dial that down if you are mechanical, a bit anyway.

When you buy a boat your number one consideration should be LOW MAINTENANCE.  Fiberglass or metal hull, aluminum mast.  A wood boat is more about carpentry than sailing.  They are beautiful, but they are a lot of work.  If you want to sail, buy a fiberglass boat.  If you want to do it on the cheap, get a mass produced boat - the parts are cheaper to replace than a custom build. 

If you are alone or a couple you don't need more than 30'.  I crossed the Atlantic in a 31, and it was fine.  There is a lot of variation in seaworthiness, so do your research.  Cost of everything goes up exponentially with size of boat - bigger sails, bigger lines, bigger motor, bigger nuts and bolts.

I don't know where you live, but if you live in a Coastal city you can almost certainly sail for free by signing up as crew in the local racing clubs.  Push the boundaries and make mistakes with someone else's boat and gear.

YK-Phil

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 10:52:09 PM »
I am in the same situation as yours, but a tiny bit older, and I plan to get a sailboat too, but not before next year when my wife (who has no interest in sailing) and I relocate to our Vancouver Island property, which is less than 1 km away from a perfect cove to moor the boat, and I am ready to either live aboard at least part of the year (or my daughter who is a sailer/diver and who lived a couple of years on a boat and can't stand living on land). I've been looking at sailboats for a few years now, and get overexcited at some of the offerings, but I would suggest that you wait until you are ready to live aboard, or close to it. This boat seems like a perfect deal, but don't forget there are hundreds of boats under 30 feet on the market, in that price range, and there will still be hundreds whenever you are ready.

patrickza

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2015, 12:08:54 AM »
Thanks all, sfb did the major work of talking me out of it, but many of you others have helped too. If I lived at the coast I would have had a boat already. And I would be living on it, but I just can't shake the feeling that if I buy one now it'll be a major mission to go there and get some sailing, and it would just end up being a money suck. I sure do get excited by them while dreaming though!

I'm heading past the dam where the boat is in January. I think I'll go past and have a look anyway, but I'll make sure I don't have any money available to me a the time!

My wife and I are planning a move to Europe post FIRE, most likely Portugal as they have very favourable taxes for foreigners. We plan to live on a boat in the Algarve and from there start exploring the med. 3 years, 1 month, 29 days and 8 hours, but who's counting!

StetsTerhune

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Re: Talk me out of buying a sailboat!
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2015, 07:20:43 AM »
My personal favorite don't-buy-a-sailboat joke:

"If you want to simulate what it'll be like to own a sailboat, just stand in a cold shower and rip up hundred dollar bills."

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!