Taiwanese friends invited me to dinner, then spoke mandarin between themselves.

[pudding]

I got invited to dinner with some Taiwanese friends I've known for a few years now.

One of them lives here in Canada, two are here visiting and the other I met for the first time last night.

We met at a steakhouse, the kind of place I don't normally go to as it's 40 bucks for a smallish meal and I don't eat much meat either.

But I went anyway as it was the meal before 2 of them left to go back to Taiwan.

I got there a few minutes after them and they were seated at a table, 4 people... 2 on either side.

So I sat at the table on one side and I was already feeling a bit awkward as the conversation and their body language had already formed a kind of 'square' of which I wasn't a part of.

Also they all knew each other, whereas I only knew 2 of them, one of them not at all and and one I'd met a couple of days earlier for the first time.

After a couple of minutes of 'hello' etc from the 2 that I knew, the 4 of them spoke mandarin/chinese continuously for the next half an hour, laughing and joking etc...

I just sat there thinking wtf... what do I do.   

So we ordered, and I waited. I got $50 out of my wallet and put it on the table. I was almost ready to make an excuse and leave.

The food came, now at least I had something to do.

So I scoffed it down and called the waiter over and asked for my bill, said I had things to do and had to jet.

This seemed to jolt them into speaking English for a few minutes. Wow now I could actually join in the conversation! Then I left, thinking thank f*** for that.

I'm an immigrant here in Canada too, I guess I'm fortunate to have English for my native language. English and French being the official languages here.

I had wondered if the guy I'd met that night maybe couldn't speak english well, or much at all. In which case it would have been more understandable. It wasn't the case though, he could speak English well as could they all.

Myself if say I could speak Japanese and went to Japan, invited 3 of my native English speaking friends along + 1 Japanese who could only speak Japanese..  if me and my English speaking friends just yammered on in English the entire time???  I'd be thinking "hey what about the other fellow"

But that didn't seem to be how it was last night.

Left me feeling pissed off.

[wageslave23]

Yep there are rude people everywhere, some people don't include everyone in the conversation even if they are speaking the same language.  It seems like people don't know how to have a group dinner conversation (i.e. one person tells an amusing anecdote while everyone else listens and then takes turns commenting on it.  Instead one person talks while two other people have a personal side conversation, etc.)  I would just turn down future invitations.  If you really wanted to get snarky you could ask "will we be speaking english this time?"

[GuitarStv]

They probably were just excited or distracted chatting among themselves and forgot you . . . or maybe figured that you were quiet and didn't want to say much.  Kinda sucks, but it happens.  No biggie.  In awkward situations like that don't sit quietly getting more and more pissed off.  That's passively depending on others to read your mind.  Just say "Hey guys, what are you talking about?".

This will politely point out the problem, indicate that you want to converse, and doesn't end up with you being pissed off or having hurt feelings.

[Wrenchturner]

You probably should have said something, although you'd want to be gentle about it.

Actually the person that invited you should have said something.

[eljefe-speaks]

I just sat there thinking wtf... what do I do.   

Leave.

That is rude AF.

[Laserjet3051]

Yes, there are rude people everywhere, but being surrounded by Taiwanese/Chinese people 5 days a week, I observe the behavior you experienced, regularly.

That's not to say the French people I hang with dont also do this on occasion.

[pudding]

I was a bit apprehensive about going to the dinner.

The reason being that the person who I know, the one that is here on vacation and going home.   I once bumped into her walking down the street on a friday night, a few years ago when she live here in Canada. 

We chatted and went into a pub for a beer. We say at the bar, a guy was also sat at the bar the other side of her.

I guess the guy figured he would try to chat her up. He was an English speaker, so the conversation was in English.

Nothing wrong with that in itself, except that it was a similar thing where she turned to face the guy, her back now to me at the bar.  Then the 2 of them talked none stop for about 20 minutes about asian politics, which they both it turned out were interested in.

I tried to get in the conversation, but it just wasn't happening.

In the end the bar man kind of gave me a look as if to say "sucks bro"  so I paid for the beer and left.

So I thought to myself, hmmm   a dinner with her???  Is it worth going?  Turns out it wasn't.

[pudding]

You probably should have said something, although you'd want to be gentle about it.

Actually the person that invited you should have said something.

I thought about that, and there probably were tactful ways that I could have said something.

My take on doing that though is that, yes you might reign in the behaviour. But you kind of highlight what had already become apparent by then... that is that you aren't exactly in the 'gang'.

I can almost guarantee that if I had done that, once I'd left the conversation would have been negative. Almost certainly would not have been about how I had raised a good point and how happy they were to now have a better way to socialize should the situation arise again.


For me it raises a few other points about living where I do.   

In the neighbourhood I live in, it's become almost all chinese people. I'd guestimate around 95% are chinese or from Hong Kong or Vietnam.

For example I went to McDonalds for breakfast this morning. Chinese people love MC'd's for breakfast. Nothing wrong with that, but I sat there listening to them talking really loudly, almost shouting at times.

And it was just this din.... I had no idea what they were saying, there was only me and one other person in there that wasn't white.

I even recorded it on my phone to send to my sister. It just becomes this 'noise'

I have some good friends here from HK and China, I'd hate to think that I was being somehow racist. But I have to be real about it... particularly when things like last night happen.

It's like if you bought a house in a residential area and over time a commercial building was built here and there. After a while you might start to think... hmmm, this area's changed. Not sure if I like it much anymore.

It's a bit like that.  The shops have become chinese, the restaurants, the neighbours, the politicians. I can't read the signs, don't hear what's being said, can't really join in.

[pudding]

  Just say "Hey guys, what are you talking about?".

This will politely point out the problem, indicate that you want to converse, and doesn't end up with you being pissed off or having hurt feelings.

That would have been a good way to say it.

In everything there's a bit of them and a bit of you... I can see how I could polish up my 'gently asserting myself' in situation such as this.

[Barbaebigode]

I had a similar experience with two french guys, except they were guests at our house. At first I thought it was due to cultural differences, but other things they did were just as rude. Some people are just like that.

[Paul der Krake]

That's just bizarre. I have coworkers who speak in Mandarin, which I find a little annoying as I have no way of knowing whether I should join the conversation because it's something that impacts me or whether they're talking about their weekend.

But an entire meal? That's ridiculous.

[pudding]

I'm just thinking that context is important too.

You know if they were thinking 'that guy will be here again wanting us to speak English'    -v-  we're just not particularly thinking about his situation.

It would be important to know, to put it in context kind of thing.

I'd say likely its;  not really thinking about it, maybe some 'huh, whatever he's outnumbered' thrown in there.

So not so much about dislike, more about moderate selfishness and who cares attitude.

[J Boogie]

The main problem is that she invited you.

It's nice to be inclusive in a group setting, but shouldn't be expected.

However, when someone is invited, it's inconsiderate not to include them. It shows you don't respect their time.

Some people are just invite-happy and are bad "hosts" who do not understand the expectations of inviting someone.

[Maenad]

However, when someone is invited, it's inconsiderate not to include them. It shows you don't respect their time.

Yeah, I hang out almost exclusively with English speakers, and have had the exact experience of being excluded while they have a conversation I can't participate in. In my case, they were friends, and I just told them they were being rude. With people you don't know all that well? Definitely trickier.

Bad behavior truly crosses all boundaries. Can you email them and let them know that their behavior hurt your feelings? If no one points out that a person is being boorish they'll likely keep doing it.

[Bruin]

I'm sorry to hear your unpleasant experience. As another Chinese immigrant being in U.S. for 20 years, I can't say I have not heard or seen a situation like yours before. Based on only the words I read here, I'm going to make some assumptions.

One, it's possible that your friend did not give it much thought when she invited you for dinner. She probably thought it was a nice thing to ask, but did not prepare to accommodate you as she should have. 

Two, she and others can speak English, but I bet, their Mandarin is much more fluent. Speaking English at the dinner is the right thing to do but not the most convenient thing. So they decided to "sacrifice" your feelings for an easier and more natural way out.

Three, it has never been an issue for her or others. In other words, no one has protested or not even a gentle nudge or a friendly reminder so that they have not realized the problem they have caused you. I bet the woman who invited you for dinner is young and lighthearted. Unfortunately, she has not had a chance to learn this social normal yet, as most of us are too polite to say something.

I have been in similar situations at work or other places where people I'm with speak their native languages which I have no clue and feel uneasy but still bite my tongue.

 

[pudding]

I'm sorry to hear your unpleasant experience. As another Chinese immigrant being in U.S. for 20 years, I can't say I have not heard or seen a situation like yours before. Based on only the words I read here, I'm going to make some assumptions.

One, it's possible that your friend did not give it much thought when she invited you for dinner. She probably thought it was a nice thing to ask, but did not prepare to accommodate you as she should have. 

Two, she and others can speak English, but I bet, their Mandarin is much more fluent. Speaking English at the dinner is the right thing to do but not the most convenient thing. So they decided to "sacrifice" your feelings for an easier and more natural way out.


Three, it has never been an issue for her or others. In other words, no one has protested or not even a gentle nudge or a friendly reminder so that they have not realized the problem they have caused you. I bet the woman who invited you for dinner is young and lighthearted. Unfortunately, she has not had a chance to learn this social normal yet, as most of us are too polite to say something.

I have been in similar situations at work or other places where people I'm with speak their native languages which I have no clue and feel uneasy but still bite my tongue.

Hi Bruin, thanks for your input.

[rothwem]

This is a weird question, but are you Asian?  Do you think that she thought you could speak Chinese?

[lovegoodyu]

I wish you had a more pleasant experience over dinner! I am also a immigrant from China. I agree with Bruin that this is not the first time I have heard situations like this.

One of the things I'd re-evaluate though, is, is this friend worth your time/emotional effort to tell her that she hurt your feelings by inviting you to dinner but not speaking English? Chances are not... Sometimes you win some (find great friends even across the language barriers!) and sometimes you lose some (feeling like you lost your own time [and $$$] going to this dinner)...

It is hard to get over this feeling of being left out though. And you have the right to your emotions; there is nothing wrong with it! If she's not a good friend, then forget her. Make other friends who's actually worth your time, and align with your values! xoxo.

[Dee18]

It can be hard to speak up about a “mistake” of any kind. One rule of thumb I read years ago is if the social problem is one that might be fixed immediately, you should always politely speak up.  Initially it seems this situation was in that category.  But I can recall many instances where, like you, I didn’t say something initially and then felt like I’d waited too long and/or was so annoyed with the situation that I just wanted out of it.  And the financial aspect understandably increased the frustration.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Remarkably insensitive of them. I could see if at least one person held a conversation with you in English while they spoke separately but this is inexcusable for social night out. I would have left and said that as the conversation doesn’t involve me I have other things to do with my time. 

[fat-johnny]

Staying silent and stewing over it accomplishes nothing.  About 5 minutes in, I would politely say "Hey guys....what are you talking about?  I'm sorry, but I dont understand a lick of Mandarin"......which would have forced them to break away and switch to English.  Honest mistake (maybe), now corrected.

If they stay in English for the remainder, that shows that they want to engage with you and they respect your company.

If they soon switch back to strictly Mandarin, I'd politely excuse myself and leave.  No sense getting aggravated about it.

FJ

[Hula Hoop]

I'm an English speaking immigrant in Italy.  I have lots of English speaking friends but when we get together and there's even just one Italian there (and even if they speak English) we all speak Italian the entire tire apart from maybe to our kids (who we are all trying to raise bilingual so it's important to keep using only English).  Actually, I often speak Italian with my kids when we're around Italians or other foreigners who don't speak English well. 

So I'd say that was incredibly rude.  But it isn't just a Taiwanese/Chinese thing.  This has happened to me with both a group of French and Spanish speaking immigrants when I was living in the US.  The Spanish speakers were the worst - they kept asking me if I spoke any Spanish and I kept saying "no" as I've never studied the language.  They said "you need to learn!" and then switched back into Spanish.  I was spending a whole weekend with them staying in their house (with a Spanish speaking ex of mine) and ended up just reading a book while they yammered on in a language I didn't understand even though they all spoke reasonable English and lived in the US.

[CheapScholar]

I’ve learned one can rarely, if ever, make truly good friends post high school.

[Hula Hoop]

I’ve learned one can rarely, if ever, make truly good friends post high school.

What???  I have tons of friends I've met as an adult.  And what has that got to do with the Taiwanese dinner?

[cloudsail]

I'm also noticed, oddly, that women tend to be more considerate of other female friends versus male friends. They'll be more careful about including them and not hurting feelings, whereas they'll be more careless about the men they're around.

Anyhow, that was definitely extremely rude. I grew up in Vancouver, and even though I am Asian and speak Chinese fluently, the way the city has changed is disconcerting for me as well. Every time I go back I think, this is not the city I grew up in. And we can't ever afford to go back :( My best friend growing up recently moved to Chiliwack (she's white and middle class, and just couldn't deal with the craziness anymore). I think moving is basically the only option, sadly.

Oh, and it was actually my best friend's mom who taught me, in fourth grade, that it's rude to speak in a language that not everyone in the group understands.

[BicycleB]

When I was in college, I studied abroad in Japan. So I was an English speaker in a country that spoke Japanese, studying in a language program designed to teach Japanese to English speakers like myself. We were given residential situations living with Japanese families, and told that the more we spoke Japanese instead of English, the faster we'd learn Japanese.

Did we hang out with Japanese after class, or fellow English speakers? Some did one. Some did the other. A couple English-speaking friends and I split the difference by making friends with some Japanese students and hanging out with them all afternoon. We explored the city, mixing Japanese and English as we could.

Some Australian bankers were there in the same program as us college students, and somehow one boy from Kentucky lived in their dorm. The whole group drank a lot and spoke English all evening. Not sure their Japanese got good, the bankers did outscore us in the one business class we had. It's hard not to use your native language when you relax.

***

In grad school, I made friends with a little group of Chinese. I was the only non-Chinese speaker. At first, they spoke English when we ate together at lunch. But sometimes, one would say something in Chinese to another.

I kept quiet, curious. After a while, long streaks of Chinese developed. I began to hear particular sounds. One day, hearing one of them repeated, I asked "What's (exact unintelligible sound)"?

Their eyes got big; jaws dropped. "You speak Chinese!" someone exclaimed. "No, I'm just listening. What does (exact unintelligible sound) mean?" I forget what they said next, but they explained what it meant, and it was indeed the main subject they were talking about (hence their amazement).

As their English improved, they gradually shifted to 99% English. But for a while, my Chinese was improving fast.

Not sure if there's any lesson, just sharing the story. In one night, it would have felt awkward too.

PS. Later, they all invited me to a couple of Real Chinese Meals. Apparently Chinese bond over food even more than most people. They explained that they celebrate by sharing food at the table, which I did. Maybe your presence felt friendly to your hosts even though they didn't really talk to you?

[OtherJen]

I’ve learned one can rarely, if ever, make truly good friends post high school.

What???  I have tons of friends I've met as an adult.  And what has that got to do with the Taiwanese dinner?

Same. The good friends I’ve made in my 30s and 40s aren’t rude at the dinner table.

[mm1970]

I’ve learned one can rarely, if ever, make truly good friends post high school.

I've found the opposite.  In high school, you are stuck with whomever lives where your parents live.

My truly good friends are all from post high school and post college even.

(and one of them is Chinese!)

[Freedomin5]

I live in China, and it’s not rude. It’s inconsiderate, but no one considers it rude. I’ve gone out with groups of friends who end up speaking Shanghainese to each other, which I can’t understand. The thinking is, they weren’t talking about you and they weren’t talking to you, so there’s no need in their mind to use a language you understand. And sometimes there are phrases and concepts that are simply easier to express in one language than in another because there is no direct translation.  When your friends were greeting you, they used English, a language you understand.

Growing up in Toronto, I had a group of friends comprised of Russians, mainland Chinese, Korean, and Hong Kong Chinese. Our dinners were always a mix of four languages. No one felt offended or slighted. And if they wanted to join in a particular conversation that was currently not in their language, they either asked, “Hey, what are you guys talking about?” Or if they wanted to inject humour, they nodded their head sagely and opined, “Yes, yes, I see what you mean. I agree completely,” or made some other comment pretending to be part of the conversation. That usually got a laugh and a switch back to English.

I’ve also hung out with groups of Taiwanese back when I lived in LA and my mandarin was not great. Most of the time, they spoke Mandarin about people or events about which I knew nothing when we went out to eat. If I wanted to join the conversation, I’d just ask a question in English or I’d just stay silent and enjoy the food and try to work on my mandarin listening comprehension. There was no need to get offended.

[Just Joe]

When I lived in Italy for a while I wanted to learn more Italian. One of my friends spoke zero English so I made a little progress. The other friend was so eager to learn English that I could not get them to speak Italian with me so my skills would improve. Then throw in local dialects to mix it all up a little more. What an adventure.

Its rude to exclude by linguistic abilities. I'd leave too. Would have prob asked what they were yammering on about in the language I did not understand first. If they didn't get the hint, leave.

[flipboard]

I'm an English speaking immigrant in Italy.  I have lots of English speaking friends but when we get together and there's even just one Italian there (and even if they speak English) we all speak Italian the entire tire apart from maybe to our kids (who we are all trying to raise bilingual so it's important to keep using only English).  Actually, I often speak Italian with my kids when we're around Italians or other foreigners who don't speak English well. 

So I'd say that was incredibly rude.  But it isn't just a Taiwanese/Chinese thing.  This has happened to me with both a group of French and Spanish speaking immigrants when I was living in the US.  The Spanish speakers were the worst - they kept asking me if I spoke any Spanish and I kept saying "no" as I've never studied the language.  They said "you need to learn!" and then switched back into Spanish.  I was spending a whole weekend with them staying in their house (with a Spanish speaking ex of mine) and ended up just reading a book while they yammered on in a language I didn't understand even though they all spoke reasonable English and lived in the US.

The things is - it's genuinely hard to switch to the non-standard language (in this case, English is non-standard between 2 spanish or even mandarin speakers - especially if they already know each other). Using multiple languages with someone you know is difficult, and feels weird and awkward. It's effectively like having 2 relationships - one in language A, one in language B. Even more so if language A is the primary language of both people.

And from my perspective, it's really weird when (migrant) parents try to speak broken language-of-country-they-live-in with their children, instead of just speaking fluent native tongue (children will pick up language-of-country-they-live-in quite quickly through school - and they'll actually learn it well, instead of learning a broken version from their non-or-less-fluent parent). I understand why people want to do this, but I've rarely seen it work out well.

[Plina]

I would say the rudeness depends on a cultural context. In a western context it would be considered rude by most people. I have grown up with two languages and speak 4-5 languages and you always choose the language depending of the company and their language skills. My sisters partner doesn’t speak the language that we speak in our family so if we sometimes speak between us the language that he doesn’t know he will also get a translation.

I traveled in China and southeastasia and it was actually pretty interesting to notice that how some normal behaviour in the countries made me cringe and sometimes really uncomfortable. Table mannens were one of those things, spitting and blowing your nose another thing, a third thing was consideration to others. Also things like your personal space was a nonexistant in a lot of countries were I sometimes spent two uncomfortable hours in customs line with the next person basically glued to my back. I also noticed that some behaviour is easier to deal with in peoples own country because you are the weird foreigner while it just get annoying out of their turf. In some cultures they are really pushy and they make you feel like a walk-in-closet wallet.

[Hula Hoop]

I'm an English speaking immigrant in Italy.  I have lots of English speaking friends but when we get together and there's even just one Italian there (and even if they speak English) we all speak Italian the entire tire apart from maybe to our kids (who we are all trying to raise bilingual so it's important to keep using only English).  Actually, I often speak Italian with my kids when we're around Italians or other foreigners who don't speak English well. 

So I'd say that was incredibly rude.  But it isn't just a Taiwanese/Chinese thing.  This has happened to me with both a group of French and Spanish speaking immigrants when I was living in the US.  The Spanish speakers were the worst - they kept asking me if I spoke any Spanish and I kept saying "no" as I've never studied the language.  They said "you need to learn!" and then switched back into Spanish.  I was spending a whole weekend with them staying in their house (with a Spanish speaking ex of mine) and ended up just reading a book while they yammered on in a language I didn't understand even though they all spoke reasonable English and lived in the US.

The things is - it's genuinely hard to switch to the non-standard language (in this case, English is non-standard between 2 spanish or even mandarin speakers - especially if they already know each other). Using multiple languages with someone you know is difficult, and feels weird and awkward. It's effectively like having 2 relationships - one in language A, one in language B. Even more so if language A is the primary language of both people.

And from my perspective, it's really weird when (migrant) parents try to speak broken language-of-country-they-live-in with their children, instead of just speaking fluent native tongue (children will pick up language-of-country-they-live-in quite quickly through school - and they'll actually learn it well, instead of learning a broken version from their non-or-less-fluent parent). I understand why people want to do this, but I've rarely seen it work out well.

Being an immigrant myself I beg to differ, especially on the first one.  My best friend is American and so am I.  We're both long term immigrants here.  We speak English if it's just the two of us or us and our husbands (who both speak very good English) or us and other English speaking foreigners.  However, we immediately switch to Italian between us and with the third person when an Italian (or an immigrant from a non-English speaking country) is present.  It's really not that hard - a bit harder than speaking our native tongue but we're immigrants so we need to respect the local culture and language.  We even do that when the Italian speaks some English.  It's kind of a respect thing IMO.  We live here and so it's on us to speak the native language of the non-immigrants who live here and conduct most of our lives in Italian.  It's a choice we made when we immigrated here.  It's not easy but it's the price you pay for immigrating.


I agree that it's a shame when parents don't pass on their language to their kids.  However, my parents are immigrants who spoke only English with me and I've always spoken perfect English - never had an accent or anything like that.  My father, particularly, has a strong accent and still makes mistakes in English.  Kids learn the local language at school, by reading and from other kids, which is what I did and what my kids are doing with Italian here.

[Caroline PF]

I'll put my vote in for being a cultural difference. My in-laws are Chinese, living in America, and they do that all the time. They just don't see it as being rude. And they would do it to everyone. Once they invited an acquaintance over for Thanksgiving dinner, because he didn't have family around, and then spent the entire meal conversing in Cantonese, while he sat there looking uncomfortable. I tried to talk to him, but I was seated too far away from him. Every once in a while, the person sitting next to him would ask him a question, but never got into a conversation with him.

And all my in-laws speak perfect English, and switch very easily between English and Cantonese. They would often speak to each other in English, so difficulty was not the issue. I get the feeling that it's more that they are proud to speak their native tongue, and are a bit scared that they will lose their language skills if they don't.

[K-ice]

Yes it is rude but I wouldn't let it ruin your friendship. (However, the second story in the bar where your friend had their back to you for 20 min may be a bigger sign they are not friend worthy.)

I can empathize with the group a bit because it is such a relief to be in a foreign country & speak with others in your mother tongue. I can see how they could get carried away.

I've been in many situations where I can't understand the language around me even though they could speak English. Some polite groups will ask if I mind, sometimes someone will translate parts. I've learned to pick up some words and have surprised them when I have known more than they thought.

I know of a Spanish and English couple and because she doesn't speak Spanish she will not let him speak to his family or their children in Spanish when she is around. That is so ridiculous!

One of the most beautiful conversations I saw was between someone speaking English and the other French both were speaking their mother tongue but also understanding each other.   

[Hula Hoop]

And all my in-laws speak perfect English, and switch very easily between English and Cantonese. They would often speak to each other in English, so difficulty was not the issue. I get the feeling that it's more that they are proud to speak their native tongue, and are a bit scared that they will lose their language skills if they don't.

I'm sorry but that's no excuse for rudeness and lack of empathy with others around you who don't speak your native language when you're an immigrant.  I assume that your in-laws speak Cantonese with eachother when no one else is around so there  is no way they're going to lose their native language skills.  Especially nowadays with Cantonese newspapers available online and skype calls and all the other modern technology. 

[Freedomin5]

And all my in-laws speak perfect English, and switch very easily between English and Cantonese. They would often speak to each other in English, so difficulty was not the issue. I get the feeling that it's more that they are proud to speak their native tongue, and are a bit scared that they will lose their language skills if they don't.

I'm sorry but that's no excuse for rudeness and lack of empathy with others around you who don't speak your native language when you're an immigrant.  I assume that your in-laws speak Cantonese with eachother when no one else is around so there  is no way they're going to lose their native language skills.  Especially nowadays with Cantonese newspapers available online and skype calls and all the other modern technology.

I’m from Hong Kong. I speak Cantonese. There is no such thing as a Cantonese newspaper. Newspapers are written in Chinese. Cantonese is a spoken dialect which is not written the way it is spoken.

But aside from that, I would still argue that there is a cultural component to the situation. What is perceived as being rude in one culture is not rude in another culture. A Behaviour that may be considered rude in one culture is completely innocuous in another culture, such that it doesn’t even bring up an iota of offensiveness. For example, I find it very offensive and rude that middle aged men think it’s ok to whip out their privates to pee on the sidewalk, but the locals here don’t bat an eye.

In the same way, my relatives will start talking in Cantonese and Chiuchow when eating dinner with friends even if there are people there who do not understand Chiuchow. Likewise, they would not be offended if someone else started talking to another person in a different dialect. It’s just par for the course. They’re not trying to be rude to you, and you shouldn’t take it as being rude. If you want to join the conversation, there are ways to do so graciously. The concept of “rudeness” as applied to various behaviors is oftentimes a cultural interpretation/label of that behavior.

[Paul der Krake]

And all my in-laws speak perfect English, and switch very easily between English and Cantonese. They would often speak to each other in English, so difficulty was not the issue. I get the feeling that it's more that they are proud to speak their native tongue, and are a bit scared that they will lose their language skills if they don't.

I'm sorry but that's no excuse for rudeness and lack of empathy with others around you who don't speak your native language when you're an immigrant.  I assume that your in-laws speak Cantonese with eachother when no one else is around so there  is no way they're going to lose their native language skills.  Especially nowadays with Cantonese newspapers available online and skype calls and all the other modern technology.

I’m from Hong Kong. I speak Cantonese. There is no such thing as a Cantonese newspaper. Newspapers are written in Chinese. Cantonese is a spoken dialect which is not written the way it is spoken.

But aside from that, I would still argue that there is a cultural component to the situation. What is perceived as being rude in one culture is not rude in another culture. A Behaviour that may be considered rude in one culture is completely innocuous in another culture, such that it doesn’t even bring up an iota of offensiveness. For example, I find it very offensive and rude that middle aged men think it’s ok to whip out their privates to pee on the sidewalk, but the locals here don’t bat an eye.

In the same way, my relatives will start talking in Cantonese and Chiuchow when eating dinner with friends even if there are people there who do not understand Chiuchow. Likewise, they would not be offended if someone else started talking to another person in a different dialect. It’s just par for the course. They’re not trying to be rude to you, and you shouldn’t take it as being rude. If you want to join the conversation, there are ways to do so graciously. The concept of “rudeness” as applied to various behaviors is oftentimes a cultural interpretation/label of that behavior.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

[Freedomin5]

And all my in-laws speak perfect English, and switch very easily between English and Cantonese. They would often speak to each other in English, so difficulty was not the issue. I get the feeling that it's more that they are proud to speak their native tongue, and are a bit scared that they will lose their language skills if they don't.

I'm sorry but that's no excuse for rudeness and lack of empathy with others around you who don't speak your native language when you're an immigrant.  I assume that your in-laws speak Cantonese with eachother when no one else is around so there  is no way they're going to lose their native language skills.  Especially nowadays with Cantonese newspapers available online and skype calls and all the other modern technology.

I’m from Hong Kong. I speak Cantonese. There is no such thing as a Cantonese newspaper. Newspapers are written in Chinese. Cantonese is a spoken dialect which is not written the way it is spoken.

But aside from that, I would still argue that there is a cultural component to the situation. What is perceived as being rude in one culture is not rude in another culture. A Behaviour that may be considered rude in one culture is completely innocuous in another culture, such that it doesn’t even bring up an iota of offensiveness. For example, I find it very offensive and rude that middle aged men think it’s ok to whip out their privates to pee on the sidewalk, but the locals here don’t bat an eye.

In the same way, my relatives will start talking in Cantonese and Chiuchow when eating dinner with friends even if there are people there who do not understand Chiuchow. Likewise, they would not be offended if someone else started talking to another person in a different dialect. It’s just par for the course. They’re not trying to be rude to you, and you shouldn’t take it as being rude. If you want to join the conversation, there are ways to do so graciously. The concept of “rudeness” as applied to various behaviors is oftentimes a cultural interpretation/label of that behavior.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Thank goodness I’m not a middle aged man, and will never be one. :P

[Hula Hoop]

But aside from that, I would still argue that there is a cultural component to the situation. What is perceived as being rude in one culture is not rude in another culture. A Behaviour that may be considered rude in one culture is completely innocuous in another culture, such that it doesn’t even bring up an iota of offensiveness. For example, I find it very offensive and rude that middle aged men think it’s ok to whip out their privates to pee on the sidewalk, but the locals here don’t bat an eye.

In the same way, my relatives will start talking in Cantonese and Chiuchow when eating dinner with friends even if there are people there who do not understand Chiuchow. Likewise, they would not be offended if someone else started talking to another person in a different dialect. It’s just par for the course. They’re not trying to be rude to you, and you shouldn’t take it as being rude. If you want to join the conversation, there are ways to do so graciously. The concept of “rudeness” as applied to various behaviors is oftentimes a cultural interpretation/label of that behavior.

The immigrants in the OP  live in Canada though, where this behavior would indeed be considered rude and they have lived there long enough to pick up fluent English so I imagine a reasonably long time. At a certain point, as an immigrant, you start to assimilate the local culture and your native culture recedes.  I'm an immigrant and I know perfectly well what is considered rude or not rude in the local culture as I've been here a long time.  For example, here it's considered quite rude to say "no" directly especially to a social event so I never say "no" but rather say things like "I'll try to be there, it sounds so lovely and it would be so great to see you all, but I have a lot on that evening so I'm not sure if I'll manage." Then I send them a message a few hours before the social event to say that, unfortunately, due to other things I have on I won't be able to make it tonight - I put in a lot of flowery language about how much I would have loved to have been there.  Similarly, it's considered really weird to make social plans more than a couple of days before said plans.  There are a million other examples. I know all this because I live here.  I'm sure that these people know perfectly well that this is rude in the local culture (Canada) but just don't really care.

[YYK]

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

郷に入っては郷に従え :P

I'll agree that there's cultural context here and they might not have realized that they were being rude; however, as this took place in Rome they probably should have been more considerate of the Roman norms when they invited a Roman friend. Not much to do here other than maybe let the friends know gently that their behavior can come across as rude to Canadians.

[Cassie]

Why invite someone and then exclude them?  It’s beyond rude.

[MoneyGoatee]

To the OP,

If they were all your friends, maybe they didn't feel obliged to be nice to you all the time.  If you were a stranger to (most of) them, they would be obliged to engage you, because if they didn't, they would feel the same awkwardness you did.  But since they were your friends already, maybe they didn't feel awkward for not talking to you.  Sometimes when I have lunch with my friends I've known for a long time and see frequently, we may omit pleasantries and not talk to one another for minutes at a time.  No awkwardness.  Each of us just stares blankly into the distance until one of us thinks of something to say.

More often nowadays, when people don't interact in a group gathering, it is because many of them are looking down at their smartphones!

[MoneyGoatee]

Just want to add that if a group wants to "freeze you out," they can simply talk about subjects totally foreign to you.  They don't necessarily have to speak a different language.  A large group of friends may have different "cliques" among them.  If they all get together, Friends A, B, and C may talk about a subject only they are interested in, freezing out Friends D, E, and F.

[namasteyall]

Seen many be rude to those who try to speak English and make fun of accents/grammar.  Odd, me thinks, from people who burp 'erb' for 'herb' with pronunciation which is neither French nor English! 
Or say 'didn't used to'!
Reminds me of:
'Oh, why can't the English teach their children how to speak!'
Visiting India, I see Indians very appreciative of foreigners who try to speak any Indian language, mistakes and all!

[pudding]

Yes it is rude but I wouldn't let it ruin your friendship. (However, the second story in the bar where your friend had their back to you for 20 min may be a bigger sign they are not friend worthy.)

Hi K-ice, it's me pudding the one who started the thread.

There's a funny 2nd part to this story.  I hope I can write it in a way that makes sense.

As I said in part 1; there was the dinner where my Taiwanese friends spoke mostly mandarin, and also there was the time before that where one of the friends ( I'll call her Fiona) turned her back to me and spoke to someone else in English that she'd just met for about 20 minutes until I decided I'd had enough and left.

The dinner in my original post was a farewell dinner for Fiona as she was going back to Taiwan.  Fiona's friend ( I'll call her Jane) who I'm quite close to had hinted to me that Fiona would be interested in exploring a relationship with me.... 

This I found to be quit surprising as I'd never got any indication of this in the past, and I'm 26 years older than her.

I'd fairly recently told Jane how I've been quite fortunate that my house has gone up around a million dollars since I bought it 11 years ago.

I'm not feeding into racial stereotypes here of gold digging foreigners looking for green cards, (or Canadian citizenship)   but in this case, I really did get the big red waving flag.

When the dinner was winding up, the one that I'd mostly been excluded from, Fiona turned to me and started to rub my arm, and said what smooth skin I have, then said "Oh I really do hope you come to Taiwan" and put on what could best be described as the kind of smile you might make if you had a headache but had to smile for a family photo.

It was one of those moments where you suddenly have to re calibrate all your thoughts about who this person is.

There is no way I'd have any interest in a romantic relationship with someone like that, and to be real I don't think she'd want one with me. It was all really calculated. I was kind of shocked.

So Fiona has gone back to Taiwan, Jane is still here in Canada and I'm meeting up with her today for coffee, which is something we've done before from time to time.

I don't think I can look at her in the same way. I think the friendship has been relegated to a much lower place, which is unfortunate as I was enjoying having her as a friend. Now I'm thinking 'do I continue the friendship' or ' do I now look at her differently too' ?

They are the best of friends, so I can only wonder at what the nature of the conversations they have might be.