Switzerland: Potential Future Mustachian Paradise?

[Brandon Curtis]

How's this for interesting: Switzerland is going to vote on whether to give every adult in the country a no-strings-attached Citizen's Dividend of 2,500 Swiss Francs (~$2,800) per month.  Granted, the cost of living is about twice as high compared to the US, but even $1,400 a month would cover my rent, utilities, transportation, food...

Who's ready to move to Switzerland?

[CupcakeStache]

How's this for interesting: Switzerland is going to vote on whether to give every adult in the country a no-strings-attached Citizen's Dividend of 2,500 Swiss Francs (~$2,800) per month.  Granted, the cost of living is about twice as high compared to the US, but even $1,400 a month would cover my rent, utilities, transportation, food...

Who's ready to move to Switzerland?

I'm not so sure about that ($1400/month being enough)! My parents live in Switzerland and I spend about a month there every year. It's verrrry expensive, and it seems so even to people accustomed to living in high COL areas in the US.

It is beautiful though. :)

[Albert]

I don't believe the proposal will actually go through. It's more of the stunt, Swiss have quite a strong work ethic and wouldn't actually vote for this in large numbers. There was another referendum recently where a proposal to extend federally mandated vacation from four weeks to six was voted down (five probably would have passed, though).

As for costs of living, it's possible to live on 2,500 CHF/month albeit it would require some effort. I live in Switzerland and spend about 2,700 CHF in an average month when no travel or major purchases are planned. Approximate breakdown is 1,400 CHF rent for 1 bedroom apartment, 400 for health insurance, 600 for food (including eating out) and household items, 100 for travel expenses, 100 for internet + TV license + mobile phone,  and 100 for clothes + miscellaneous entertainment. That would be for a single person and the real average is higher than that because I do travel extensively and there are occasional major purchases. On the other hand my apartment is by no means the cheapest option nor do I take particular care to save on food costs.

[Jamesqf]

Yes, quite expensive.  When I lived there, I was renting an "apartment" that had been converted from a pool house. for rather more than my mortgage on my (by no means small or cheap) US place.  It seems quite difficult to rent apartments on anything but year-to-year leases - my landlady made a practice of renting the place to visiting research staff.

On balance, it's a pretty nice place to live: you can get most places by bike & train, get good fruits, vegetables, and breads in the local markets (kind of like farmers' markets here).  It does have its downsides, though, like the "Controle des Habitants": everyone in the country (not just foreigners) has to keep their current address registered with this government agency, and they do check.

[Left]

not much different than the food stamps/section 8 housing/etc in US. I do like how it's a bit more elegant in the form of bundled check, if they aren't going to provide the items separately. Just give them a lump sum and let them manage it. If they fail at that, well... maybe they can try again next month if they haven't starved/frozen

I would like to visit Switzerland sometime in my life. Not sure about living there, I don't like cold places and last time I checked, it still snows there and a lot

[Albert]

I would like to visit Switzerland sometime in my life. Not sure about living there, I don't like cold places and last time I checked, it still snows there and a lot

1-4 weeks per year in the lowlands, isn't Kansas city colder and snowier than that?

[Albert]

Yes, quite expensive.  When I lived there, I was renting an "apartment" that had been converted from a pool house. for rather more than my mortgage on my (by no means small or cheap) US place.  It seems quite difficult to rent apartments on anything but year-to-year leases - my landlady made a practice of renting the place to visiting research staff.

There are landlords "specializing" in short term leases, but majority would prefer to rent for many years to the same person and select their renters accordingly.

[dmn]

I currently live in Switzerland (more precisely in Basel), and so far I like it very much. The cost of living is high, but the wages are even higher. As a PhD student, I earn 3100 CHF net/month (around 3400 $) and this is considered a very low wage, below what even an unskilled worker can earn. My monthly spending is about 1500 CHF, so I can save 50% even of that very low wage.

My major monthly expenses are
(1) 650 CHF for rent, water, heating and power (I share a cheap but nice 44 square meter 2-bedroom apartment with my girlfriend, and we share the rent)
(2) 250 CHF for health insurance
(3) 200 CHF for food (buying at a cheap discounter like Aldi and eating only little meat, no eating out)
(4) 30 CHF for internet and phone (60 CHF shared with my GF), and basically no cost for prepaid cell phone
plus a couple of minor expenses and discretionary spending, which tend to bring my total expenses close to 1500 CHF/month.

I am not sure why my costs are much lower than Albert's, there may be some regional variation. In Basel, 1500 CHF are definitely possible, assuming you do not try eating out and instead invite friends over for dinner or make a picknick, and bring your own lunch to work.

I think that due to the high wage levels and low taxes, Mustachian levels of saving can be achieved much more easily in Switzerland than in other European countries.  Moreover, Basel is a wonderful city, and Basel's society and politics seem to work much better than what I am used to from Germany. My girlfriend and I definitely want to stay in Basel even after I finish my PhD.

[cosmie]

Food stamps have some advantages in that it's harder for wildly dysfunctional parents to spend them on things other than food for their kids, but I'd rather see most welfare programs converted into a straight monthly cash grant for people to spend as they wish.

Unfortunately, it's really not. :-/
I've known quite a few people on Food Stamps, and have been solicited more than once to buy them. They're usually sold at 50 cents on the dollar, to pay more pressing bills that are also due at the beginning of the month (when SNAP accounts get credited). These weren't people trying to sell them for the hell of it, but rather to make up a cash shortfall to keep the lights on. A straight cash grant would have at least allowed the full utility of the benefit to be had, even if not allocated towards the specific cause it was meant for.

[Albert]

I am not sure why my costs are much lower than Albert's, there may be some regional variation. In Basel, 1500 CHF are definitely possible, assuming you do not try eating out and instead invite friends over for dinner or make a picknick, and bring your own lunch to work.

Because I'm not a student anymore and don't try to save the maximum possible amount (my net income is about double yours). The biggest difference between us is my apartment (55 m2) for which I pay fully myself, higher food costs (I do eat plenty of meat and occasionally eat out as well) plus I spend my vacations traveling around the world. Insurance for students is cheaper, you won't be able to get away with that little once you get a permanent job.

But you are right the life here, at least from a financial point of view, is very nice. One could save a lot of money with not too much effort. Also it's an excellent place for all kinds of outdoor activities, really love that part!

[Leisured]

I expect the citizen dividend, if approved, will only apply to Swiss citizens. You have to live in Switzerland for 12 years before you can apply for citizenship.

http://benjaminstudebaker.com/2013/10/06/the-swiss-plan-to-throw-money-at-people/

A citizen dividend, similar to Guaranteed Minimum Income, (see Wikipedia) is a surprisingly old idea. It is important to remember that such a scheme replaces existing welfare arrangements.

[dmn]

But you are right the life here, at least from a financial point of view, is very nice. One could save a lot of money with not too much effort. Also it's an excellent place for all kinds of outdoor activities, really love that part!

Yes, its very outdoor friendly in Basel as well. Little car traffic, a very bike-friendly environment, a beautiful river going right through the town, and hills and mountains nearby.

Which region in Switzerland are you from?

Insurance for students is cheaper, you won't be able to get away with that little once you get a permanent job.

As a student I pay only 72 CHF/month. The 250 CHF I quoted are for a non-student general health insurance which I had for a few months before I got my contract as a PhD student. Such low premiums are only possible with a high 2500 CHF deductible and restricted choice of doctors, but I found that sufficient for my needs.

[nawhite]

A citizen dividend, similar to Guaranteed Minimum Income, (see Wikipedia) is a surprisingly old idea. It is important to remember that such a scheme replaces existing welfare arrangements.

Just to clarify the Swiss system would not be a Guaranteed Minimum Income (GMI) plan, it would be an Unconditional Basic Income (UBI) plan.

In GMI, if the GMI is set at 2800/month and you don't have a job, the government gives you 2800/month. But, if you do have a job that pays 1400/month, the government only gives you 1400/month so your total income is still only 2800/month. This makes for a large disincentive to work if you can't earn more than 2800/month at a job because you'd be in the same place if you didn't work at all.

In a UBI plan like the Swiss proposal, if you have a job that pays 1400/month, the government will still give you the full 2800/month for a total monthly income of 3200/month. This encourages people to work even low paying jobs (and usually these proposals include abolishing any minimum wage regulation). This is generally considered a big improvement over plans like Disability or Unemployment because there is no disincentive to work. (with disability, you either can't work at all and you get the disability benefit, or you can work a terrible paying job and you get no disability benefit)

[Daleth]

Switzerland has amazing quality of life. My DH and I have dear friends there and as a result of visiting them, we have a serious crush on Switzerland. It's beautiful, safe, clean, rich (even the fry cooks are making $3000+/month), close to a ton of other interesting places to visit...

And it's hard to beat Switzerland's record: free, rich, and independent for 500 years!

[frugaldrummer]

Does it only apply to citizens?  Because it's actually quite difficult to become a Swiss citizen, I believe.  I had a friend who was born and raised in Switzerland, but his parents came from Germany.  He did not become a citizen until his 20's, after completing military service.

[daverobev]

I'd love to believe it'd work if done, and done in other countries. Switzerland is already one of the best countries in terms of... education levels, wealth levels, etc - it just wouldn't be possible to do this in Bangladesh, for example. There isn't enough money about to be able to.

I believe in the UAE citizens do get 'free money' from the govt.

The question is - who pays for it? Because somebody, somewhere has to. Is it from all the money Switzerland's banking sector makes? Luxury goods sold elsewhere? If so - then *foreigners* are paying for it. In the case of the UAE, it's oil revenue that pays it.

I guess I believe in a carrot + stick model. If you just gave me $1500 a month I'd have no incentive to do anything. Well... if education was free/nearly free I guess I'd enroll in something.

No incentive to do anything *productive* I mean. I'd walk a lot, read a lot, listen to music, and ponder the world. Which is pretty much what I do anyway :)

[nassoro]

Does it only apply to citizens?  Because it's actually quite difficult to become a Swiss citizen, I believe.  I had a friend who was born and raised in Switzerland, but his parents came from Germany.  He did not become a citizen until his 20's, after completing military service.

I bet it applies to all residents.  Residency is hard enough to come by :).  But I quite like it.  Citizenship is (for adults) at least a 12 year process, with language and even cultural requirements.

This link paints it a bit differently.  http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.20min.ch%2Ffinance%2Fnews%2Fstory%2F2500-Franken--Monatslohn---ohne-zu-arbeiten-19739125 It makes it look as if it would be an income tax reduction for most wage earners (so my earned income for taxation purposes would be reduced by 2500 CHF per month at the federal level).  If I understand it correctly, that would be a few hundred less per year in tax, as federal tax is minimal - most is collected at the cantonal and commune level.

Still, I'd support it if I was able to vote here - could make quite a difference for those in the lowest earning jobs. 

Side note: for all dependent children we get 200 CHF each, per month.  Quite a nice benefit.