Supporting Parents in Retirement

[COEE]

I'm faced with a dilemma that I still have several more years to think about (20-30 years), but maybe some people have crossed this bridge, and can offer some early planning advice.

My DW has an extreme desire to help her parents in their retirement.

A little background: FIL never graduated HS and has had a hard time keeping a job - even into his 50's.  He has never established a career path and jumps from job to job in the industrial sector.  He has a history of quitting jobs on a whim.  MIL has anxiety disorder (undiagnosed) which has kept her from working nearly her entire life.  They have had a hard time in life - especially in the last 10 years, as FIL has aged and has had increasingly hard time finding stable employment.  I believe that their difficulty in life is largely self-inflicted, due to poor choices early in life.  The anxiety problems are certainly not self-inflicted, but they have not been dealt with in any manner.  Because of all this I have an extreme desire not to give them a handout. 

To their credit - they are extremely frugal - by necessity.  The small amounts of money they have had - they've paid down bills with - but the bills continue to stack up - from what I've seen.  They filed bankruptcy at least once that I know of.  FIL is a bigot - and I have no desire for him to live in my house more than 5 days at a time.  Nor do I want him around my daughter for more than 5 days a year.  MIL is quiet - very passive - almost not there - hard to explain.  She's mostly checked out on a lot of levels I think.  Some good counseling would be awesome for her.

We are not FI.  I don't think we will be FI before we are around 45-50.  This is about the time that they will start feeling the need to 'retire'.  In order to fund their RN (retire never) we would have to have a significantly larger sum of money to fund their retirement - probably on the order of $200k-500k.  I believe this is too much to ask of me to work that extra time and is completely unreasonable.

On the other hand, my parents are go-getters and I don't think I'll ever have to support them financially although they will probably never be FI.  They work for a non-profit and we provide a small monthly contribution to them.  I have considered stopping my contributions to their non-profit so things remain 'fair'.  That would open up another can of worms because I think they would be disappointed in us not providing some financial support to fund their cause.

Every time my wife mentions she'd like to 'support her parents'.  I cringe - physically cringe - my facial and bodily expressions change.  My stomach starts hurting.  It's such a bad investment in time and money.  I've had a hard time talking with her about how I feel about the situation, just because I know how badly she wants to provide for them.  And I love my wife and want to see her be happy, but I don't see how it can be a positive for anyone.

I got to thinking about this because of the 'What would you do with $1M' thread.  We were mostly in line with what we'd do except that she said she'd buy her parents a house!  When she told me that I wanted to say "WTF!  Are you crazy?  They have done NOTHING to improve their situation over the years, not on any level, and you want ME to work additional YEARS to fund their retirement!?!?!?  Fuck that."

As you can tell, I'm pretty upset with this recent 'epiphany' my wife has had in her life during a recent road trip she had.  I'm not sure how to approach this problem and bring her back to the reality of getting our shit figured out before we start worrying about her parents livelihood - or anybody else's for that matter.

Surely I'm not the only one in this situation.  Maybe my outlook is poor - I'm open to that possibility.  What have other done?  What would you have changed?  Did social (in)security provide for your family late in life?  Am I cold hearted?

[soccerluvof4]

That's a very tough situation to say the least since your DW and you are rightfully not in agreement.  If she is struggling that bad is she receiving any disability? I think first you guys need to find some common ground and then work from there. Good luck! I know I wasnt much help

[COEE]

That's a very tough situation to say the least since your DW and you are rightfully not in agreement.  If she is struggling that bad is she receiving any disability? I think first you guys need to find some common ground and then work from there. Good luck! I know I wasnt much help

Thanks.  Actually you might have been helpful.  I hadn't thought of the possibility of MIL collecting disability.  I might suggest looking into that.

Also, any suggestions on humbly approaching the topic with DW would be a plus.

[little_brown_dog]

You need to head this off at the pass. You can’t just cringe. You need to sit down and have a real talk about this, and hash out what exactly you will and will not do for her parents. Go out to dinner, set some time aside and really talk about it. Start off open minded and compassionate with something like “you have mentioned a couple times about taking care of your parents, and I think we need to start thinking about that some more…” Go into it prepared to help her parents in some way – offering financial advice, willingness to help them brainstorm or find resources, and lead with that. That way you don’t look like you are just abandoning her parents. If she says “well I want to give them money” you can then tell her you are not comfortable with that, but will happily do the other things you suggested.
 
Whatever you do, do not get into a “well they made their bed...” type of discussion. Do not justify why you don't want to give money with anything about their faults/failures. You will just look like you are blaming them and she will automatically come to their defense. Come at it from a willingness to help, but then draw the line at the money and living together part. If she asks why no money, tell her you feel uncomfortable supporting two households because it puts your own goals for your family as risk and you just can't do that. She will understand better if you tell her your desire to withhold funds has everything to do with protecting her and your family, and nothing about punishing/abandoning them. If she pushes, kindly and patiently reiterate that there are many ways to support her parents - with time, energy, and advice - and you are happy to do that but you just cannot agree to financially supporting them at this time.

[Catbert]

I agree with others, the biggest thing you need is to get you and your wife on the same page.  Now, before it's a crisis.

Since they are frugal but foolish, you may find that retirement is not as bad as you think for them.  SS computations are skewed toward low income workers so they may get enough to live frugally in a LCOL area.   Or you could by a small house in a LCOL area (keep in your name) for less than 100K to keep them secure.

Does your wife work?  Do you have children or plan to have them?  Those are both things that might change both of your perspectives on her parents' situation.

[Haselbacher]

From the financial side. If you now start saving the same amount monthly for your inlaws, that you give to your parents? At least there wouldn't be a mismatch that can be hold against you.

Otherwise it is kind of like in the unequal inheritance thread. Just the other way around.

And yes, I think you should start discussing with your wife before both of you have your discussion  set in stone.

[Mezzie]

If my husband were against me supporting my parents in retirement, well... I don't think I'd have a husband anymore. My parents made some pretty bad financial mistakes; they also raised my siblings and me and are among my best friends.

Assuming your wife feels anywhere near as strongly as I do about this, tread carefully. Some non-inflammatory ideas:
1. Hey, we've been contributing X amount to my parents' non-profit; I'd like to contribute an equal amount to an account to be set aside for when your parents need help.
2. Hey, let's look into Long Term Care insurance for your parents (not always the best investment, but not always bad, either depending on family health history).
3. Hey, have you talked with your parents about where they want to live in their retirement? There's a senior center that they might enjoy -- we should look into what they can afford on SS and if we can contribute the difference.

If you don't want them living with you, plan now.

Does your wife have any siblings to share the burden with?

I grew up knowing we kids would be helping our parents as they aged. It was one of those not-joke jokes we heard growing up since they'd spent every penny taking care of us, had some bad luck, and, yes, made some bad choices, but with the best intentions.

Right now it sounds like time is on your side. Ask your wife what caring for her parents looks like to her. Let her know the limits you currently are feeling. Come to a decision -- likely a line item in your budget for saving for their care.

Your response to your wife's desire to buy her parents a house with your shared fantasy $1 million was identical to my ex-boyfriend's many, many years ago. It's one of the reasons he became an ex. My husband is totally on board helping people out in both our families.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I can relate to what you're going through, as something similar is playing out in my life. I discovered the book, Codependent No More years ago and its wisdom is helping me stay focused, it might help you and your wife, it's quite powerful awareness raising knowledge.
https://www.amazon.com/Codependent-No-More-Controlling-Yourself/dp/0894864025

[accolay]

Role reversal is a bitch, but you're in it to stay if your wife cares about helping them. I agree that it's like a reverse inheritance thread problem. All things being equal, even if you don't like your in-laws, you're going to have to get used to the idea of helping them out.

To what extent, you're going to have to talk with your wife about that. One-time payment to get bills down? Monthly amount? How much would they need? The wife not working is a problem though. Definitely look into the counseling and disability payments.

[PJ]

If my husband were against me supporting my parents in retirement, well... I don't think I'd have a husband anymore. My parents made some pretty bad financial mistakes; they also raised my siblings and me and are among my best friends.

Assuming your wife feels anywhere near as strongly as I do about this, tread carefully. Some non-inflammatory ideas:
1. Hey, we've been contributing X amount to my parents' non-profit; I'd like to contribute an equal amount to an account to be set aside for when your parents need help.
2. Hey, let's look into Long Term Care insurance for your parents (not always the best investment, but not always bad, either depending on family health history).
3. Hey, have you talked with your parents about where they want to live in their retirement? There's a senior center that they might enjoy -- we should look into what they can afford on SS and if we can contribute the difference.

If you don't want them living with you, plan now.

Does your wife have any siblings to share the burden with?

I grew up knowing we kids would be helping our parents as they aged. It was one of those not-joke jokes we heard growing up since they'd spent every penny taking care of us, had some bad luck, and, yes, made some bad choices, but with the best intentions.

Right now it sounds like time is on your side. Ask your wife what caring for her parents looks like to her. Let her know the limits you currently are feeling. Come to a decision -- likely a line item in your budget for saving for their care.

Your response to your wife's desire to buy her parents a house with your shared fantasy $1 million was identical to my ex-boyfriend's many, many years ago. It's one of the reasons he became an ex. My husband is totally on board helping people out in both our families.

I don't have anything to add - I'm not married, and my mom has enough money to support herself, I think, no matter what the future holds in store for her.  But I just wanted to say that I appreciated reading Mezzie's reflections on her own situation, and that her "non-inflammatory suggestions" seem really fair, IMO, in relation to your support of your own parents.

[2704b59cc36a]

If you're wife wants to support her parents then she can work more and delay her retirement to do so. It isn't your responsibility to subsidize their decisions. I hope you aren't the breadwinner.

[Dee18]

Given how you have described your wife's parents, you may be able to help them a great deal...in navigating potential living places and government benefits, both now and in the future.  Are either eligible for Veteran's services?  Is there housing assistance they qualify for?   I think the suggestion to set an equal amount aside for both sets of parents is a good one (wasn't clear to me if that's already happening).

It seems you prefer giving money to parents based on who will use it most wisely; keep in mind that the preference for giving to the parents most in need would seem equally appropriate to others. 

[Blueskies123]

Could they get a reverse mortgage?  However, they are very expensive.

[COEE]

Wow - lots of great advice.  A few more details that have been asked for.  My wife does work - she makes a small percentage of her income potential because she owns her own business.  A lot of risk - but hopefully it pays off in the end and it's possible that this whole conversation is moot.  My wife has one sibling who also doesn't want to help them out - so I'm told by my wife.

Mezzie - I think my wife is more toward your side of thinking - that's why I have tread really really lightly.  I also have not said what I've been thinking yet.  I know what I wanted to say earlier today would NOT gotten me very far.  I've been trying to figure out how I feel about this so that I can have an intelligent conversation about all of this with her.  I know my current feelings toward the situation are not good, but am trying to get there.  I really appreciate your input.  Honestly - splitting our assets now would probably be cheaper for me in the long run if that's really a card she would consider.

I'm definitely leaning toward stopping the contributions to my parents non-profit.  I think this just adds to the problems.  I might have to talk about that with my dad sooner rather than later.

The more I think about it, the more I think buying them a place to live might not be an awful idea.  It would give my wife security in the idea that they have a place to call home and not worry about their housing.  I would hopefully make a small return on the investment, although most certainly not beat the market.  The money I'd want to put down would most certainly put them into a bad neighborhood though - but probably not any worse than their current hood.  What other things do I open myself up to by buying a house for them to live in?  Other family members wanting handouts?  Them expecting me to take care of the their medical bills?  etc...

I'm going to keep in my mind the idea of seeing if her mom could look into getting disability.  I'll have to suggest that when the time is right though.

The consensus so far, I think, is to at least start talking with the wife and thinking about a plan and how we want to move forward.

[Josiecat]

I completely understand your side of the story on this one. 

How much are you contributing to your parent's social cause?  Is it possible to 'match' that amount and quietly slip it into a mutual fund or investment of some sort for DW's parents?  That way you will have a fund to draw from if they need assistance.  I would NOT tell them about this fund.

[urbanista]

Me and my sister contributed $110K together in order to top up our mum's savings and buy her a house outright. It was a rough neighbourhood (so I thought back that time), and the house was small. We put the house into our names, gave mum the legal right to live there forever and made it clear that no more money will be given. It was a great decision. Mum lives well on small government pension and pays house insurance and maintenance. The area improved and the house appreciated 30% within 6 years, so it was an ok investment. It was a great decision, much better than just give mum the money. If you go that road, make sure they pay insurance and all the taxes on time.

[Villanelle]

I feel you.  I worry about something similar, though the details differ.

My thoughts are that I am happy to provide all kinds of support--helping to find a good realtor, to locate a cheap apartment in a safe but not glamorous area, to find and apply for assistance, etc.  Money for people who have lived in a nicer house than I ever have?  Not so much.  If they can't see that as support, that's further indication that any money sent their way would just be wasted.  Of course, getting DH on board is a touchy thing, and I have no idea what will happen if and when this comes to fruition.

There are more programs available to seniors than many are aware.  That's always an option for them, and you can help with the time comes by assisting with research and applications. 

Since these people are generally frugal (though I question that, if they are running up bills and declaring bankruptcy, unless there was some major medical bill or lawsuit or something), I might consider purchasing them a very modest home in a very modest neighborhood, and then making it clear that was it. You ask about that opening the door to others wanting handouts.  You can very easily close that door with a "no", if it happens, but only if you and the wife are on the same page. 

I'm also of the opinion that beggars can't be choosers.  If they house they live in now is modest, maybe it makes sense to pay that off.  If not, then if they want your help, they sell the house and use the proceeds, plus your contribution, for a simple place that keeps them clean and warm and safe, and has a few comforts, too. 

[ambimammular]

Would your aging in-laws have trouble keeping up the house you'd get them? Is there a chance their other kid would try to move in with them? Would they live rent free and still want more for paying the water bill etc? Would you be maintaining the plumbing, lawn care, appliance replacement or expect them to keep an emergency fund for those things?

Personally, I'd lean toward a stipend out of some dividend stocks in your name. I'd blame any other requests on your "financial advisor" not permitting additional withdrawals.

[Mariposa]

We budget 15k a year to subsidize my MIL's living expenses, and I add that to our FIRE number. I also have an agreement with DH that I don't want to know anything about the specifics of her spending, as long as she limits it to no more than 15k a year from us. If I dwell on how she has nicer devices and a full cable package, I'm bound to feel resentful that I'm obligated to work additional years to support a lifestyle that I would not myself choose. When DH & I were hashing out the arrangement, we would have days-long fights over whether or not we would pay for the $20 a month DVR package that she wanted. DH is not on board with the concept of FIRE, so in his mind why not get his mother something that would make her happy, if we have the cash left over every month? Hoarding up the money for ourselves seems selfish to him.

We did discuss separating our finances, since we make about equal salaries right now. This runs into a few problems: 1) We would qualify for fewer tax breaks if filing married filing separately, 2) It would be a transfer of money that would go into his retirement accounts into my taxable account, so we would be giving up tax-advantaged space, and 3) If he makes substantially more money in the future, would he not feel compelled to share it with me?

So I try to focus on all the advantages & privileges DH & I have had in our lives, which far outweigh this obligation to my MIL, and I accept this arrangement with grace (no complaining). This is the (relatively small) price of being happily married.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

If my husband were against me supporting my parents in retirement, well... I don't think I'd have a husband anymore. My parents made some pretty bad financial mistakes; they also raised my siblings and me and are among my best friends.

Assuming your wife feels anywhere near as strongly as I do about this, tread carefully. Some non-inflammatory ideas:
1. Hey, we've been contributing X amount to my parents' non-profit; I'd like to contribute an equal amount to an account to be set aside for when your parents need help.
2. Hey, let's look into Long Term Care insurance for your parents (not always the best investment, but not always bad, either depending on family health history).
3. Hey, have you talked with your parents about where they want to live in their retirement? There's a senior center that they might enjoy -- we should look into what they can afford on SS and if we can contribute the difference.

If you don't want them living with you, plan now.

Does your wife have any siblings to share the burden with?

I grew up knowing we kids would be helping our parents as they aged. It was one of those not-joke jokes we heard growing up since they'd spent every penny taking care of us, had some bad luck, and, yes, made some bad choices, but with the best intentions.

Right now it sounds like time is on your side. Ask your wife what caring for her parents looks like to her. Let her know the limits you currently are feeling. Come to a decision -- likely a line item in your budget for saving for their care.

Your response to your wife's desire to buy her parents a house with your shared fantasy $1 million was identical to my ex-boyfriend's many, many years ago. It's one of the reasons he became an ex. My husband is totally on board helping people out in both our families.

My husband is totally on board helping people out in both our families.

Yeah but is it both families that have an arrangement that the siblings would help out the parents in the future; or is it just your family?

[MrsPete]

I don't have a problem with supporting the people who raised me (and my husband) and had a great deal to do with shaping the people we are.  However, I also don't have a problem with drawing lines in the sand; for example, I will do whatever I can to help and support my mom (and since I'll be the child who's retired, I'll be the one providing that support in the form of drives to the doctor and grocery store, etc.), but I'm not letting any parents live in my house.  Nearby, yes, but I need my own space. 

In your situation, I'd consider buying a duplex ... let the in-laws live in one side, and you'd have some income from the other side to help you pay the mortgage.  Eventually when they're gone, you're left with a rent-able /sell-able asset.  If they had a place to live, their SS should allow them to live modestly.

I also agree with helping your MIL pursue disability since you say she sort of "isn't there". 

As for your parents, do you feel strongly about their "cause"?  That should determine whether you continue to pay them monthly.  I can see why your wife'd feel badly about helping your parents and not hers. 

[Mezzie]

Mr. Chin Stubble --

There are both more aging adults (extended family cultural setup) and more kids to share the burden in my husband's family. As far as share of responsibility goes in time and money, though, we're not keeping score either with each other or with our siblings/cousins. It's just the way it's done in both our families; we take care of each other the best we can. If family needs us, then something we have has to give -- a luxury, a retirement goal date -- and it would be done without hesitation.

I'm not as married to the idea of early retirement as some people here, though. If my health were better, it wouldn't even be a goal.

[sjc0816]

I'm just curious. For all of you who are contributing to a parent's retirement (or plan to)...did these parents contribute to their own parents' retirement?

I know that my MIL is not in a great financial situation. She has champagne taste on a cheap beer budget. She can keep it up as long as she's working, but once she is retired all of her spending and travel will have to stop. We will NOT be subsidizing her extravagant spending when we have completely different values. We want to help pay for some of our kids' college (DH paid his own way) and we are saving a large portion of income for retirement. If my MIL was in serious trouble, she could live in our basement (it's finished and we have a room down there) but that is about as far as we are willing to go. I guess it just surprises me that people are so willing to give money to financially irresponsible people. I wouldn't do that for my grown children, so why for a parent?

[Much Fishing to Do]

This is a hard enough question when you love the people involved and do not view them as lazy, ignorant bigots.

Its one thing to try to occasionally help out someone (I bought my wonderful & hard working little sister a car at one point to help her get off to a good start), but to try to provide ongoing endless financial support for more than your own family is not a kind of drain most people's finances can handle.

As far as social security goes, even though everyone says you can't live off of it, millions do. 

[Mezzie]

Yes. My mom, for example, has not ever been in a financial position to contribute, but has spent thousands upon thousands of hours caring for the two generations above her own (on both sides of the family as well). I learned this point of view by example, after all.

I know people have different kinds of relationships with their parents, so I'm sure there are good reasons when people choose not to help out, but if someone WANTS to help out, I don't think a spouse should stand in the way of that. They should certainly agree on how much help will be provided and in what form, but there shouldn't be any complete blocking of said assistance.

I also feel like I married into my husband's family and vice versa, so if something horrible happened and one of us became a widow/er, for example, I expect that I would still help his (my, for all intents and purposes) family or he would help mine (and certainly both families would come to the survivor's aid). There is evidence that being the pattern on both sides of our families as well.

[golfreak12]

Its a bit refreshing to hear someone who has identical problems as myself.
I married a Vietnamese woman and in that culture, its expected that the children will take care of the parents as they get older. Now I knew this going in. I remembered telling my wife I would take care of everything financially. I knew there will be a time where I even might need to help with her parents.
I told my wife if she worked, she can save that in a seperate account and use that for what ever she pleases. Spend on herself, spend it on her parents, whatever....I even gave her an allowance every month to put in that account.
It turned out that my wife is doing quite well in the States. In less than 5 yrs here, she is going to a State University and on course to graduate in 2 yrs.

Her parents in VN is not poor but they get by because they are very frugal. Mom never worked and Dad has a repair/selling business that did quite well yrs ago but barely getting by now. They are in their 50's. They could barely get by for the rest of their life in VN but thats not my wife intention. Mom can barely walk and wife wants to take care of them.

My wife, wanting to by a proud daughter, have shown off to her parents how well off we are. Told them how much I make, nice house, Lexus I bought for her, etc....They wanted to come for a visit and since I knew how hard it was to get a Visa to come here, I told her sure. They must have hit the lottery because they got one, and of course I foot the bill for everything. They stayed here for 8 weeks and I tried by best to show hospitality but there was a uneasiness living with others as I haven't lived with anyone for 25 yrs.

After they left, we had a big fight that I thought was the end of our marriage. She said I was disrespectful while they were here, and I didn't interact with them enough. It seems that way to her but its my personality. I don't get along so well with parents which is why I moved out since I was 18. She forget that I took a lot of time off from work to take them places including a trip to DC.

My parents on the other hand is much older. almost in their 80's and definitely need help but financially they have tons on money. I have siblings that can take care of my parents.

Months ago, my wife brings up the topic again of her parents living with us. Maybe a duplex or even a house near us but best best scenario is the same house with maybe a wall seperating us. I suggest that maybe she should wait till she wait till she finish school and then she can financially support them in anyway she wants. I kinda put my foot down saying that I didn't think its fair for me to think about supporting 2 more adults 5 yrs into our marriage. I did everything I could to support my wife being successful in the states which she can use that to help her parents if she wants.

I know this subject will come up again. If there is a downfall to our marriage, this will be it. I can't see myself living with any parents. This situation is a tough one as I'm in one now.

[crispy]

DH and I refuse to support either side. His parents are financially irresponsible and won't take any advice so they don't get money. My mom is also pretty irresponsible, but her currernt husband seems to be pretty steady and sensible. Both have subsidized deadbeat kids so we don't want to encourage that. Fortunately, both live in LCOL areas so they are currently making it on their social security. Also, both of our families are pretty dysfunctional so there is that.

With that being said, I think the fact that you subsidize your parents is the biggest issue here. You have your reasons for doing so, but I am sure your wife feels like her reasons for helping her parents are valid, too. Maybe she cringes every time you send them a check...just some food for thought. You need to be on the same page.

[Villanelle]

We budget 15k a year to subsidize my MIL's living expenses, and I add that to our FIRE number. I also have an agreement with DH that I don't want to know anything about the specifics of her spending, as long as she limits it to no more than 15k a year from us. If I dwell on how she has nicer devices and a full cable package, I'm bound to feel resentful that I'm obligated to work additional years to support a lifestyle that I would not myself choose. When DH & I were hashing out the arrangement, we would have days-long fights over whether or not we would pay for the $20 a month DVR package that she wanted. DH is not on board with the concept of FIRE, so in his mind why not get his mother something that would make her happy, if we have the cash left over every month? Hoarding up the money for ourselves seems selfish to him.

We did discuss separating our finances, since we make about equal salaries right now. This runs into a few problems: 1) We would qualify for fewer tax breaks if filing married filing separately, 2) It would be a transfer of money that would go into his retirement accounts into my taxable account, so we would be giving up tax-advantaged space, and 3) If he makes substantially more money in the future, would he not feel compelled to share it with me?

So I try to focus on all the advantages & privileges DH & I have had in our lives, which far outweigh this obligation to my MIL, and I accept this arrangement with grace (no complaining). This is the (relatively small) price of being happily married.

Thankf for sharing this.  It's a different approach than I've ever considered, and if and when DH and I ever get to this point, this might be a better approach.  Because I know I would resent that cable package or the nicer car than I've ever driven, or whatever.  The trick would be hashing out a number we both feel is appropriate (and for me, $15k would not even be in the ballpark), but it would better than constantly fielding calls for the cable bill, or for the groceries when then have to mentally ask where all her other money is going, or whatever. 

Am I correct that it is not a stipend from you, but that your DH fields the calls and makes the decisions and you don't hear about them, and he's committed to not going over $15k/yr?

[Mr Chin Stubble]

We budget 15k a year to subsidize my MIL's living expenses, and I add that to our FIRE number. I also have an agreement with DH that I don't want to know anything about the specifics of her spending, as long as she limits it to no more than 15k a year from us. If I dwell on how she has nicer devices and a full cable package, I'm bound to feel resentful that I'm obligated to work additional years to support a lifestyle that I would not myself choose. When DH & I were hashing out the arrangement, we would have days-long fights over whether or not we would pay for the $20 a month DVR package that she wanted. DH is not on board with the concept of FIRE, so in his mind why not get his mother something that would make her happy, if we have the cash left over every month? Hoarding up the money for ourselves seems selfish to him.

We did discuss separating our finances, since we make about equal salaries right now. This runs into a few problems: 1) We would qualify for fewer tax breaks if filing married filing separately, 2) It would be a transfer of money that would go into his retirement accounts into my taxable account, so we would be giving up tax-advantaged space, and 3) If he makes substantially more money in the future, would he not feel compelled to share it with me?

So I try to focus on all the advantages & privileges DH & I have had in our lives, which far outweigh this obligation to my MIL, and I accept this arrangement with grace (no complaining). This is the (relatively small) price of being happily married.

Is it really possible to be serious about FIRE without a spouse onboard? I've never been married but, I would think the obvious answer--give my experience with women I've gone on even one date with -- and it were obvious she wants nothing of my frugal lifestyle -- without even my mentioning FIRE--would be a resounding No.

[MrsPete]

I'm just curious. For all of you who are contributing to a parent's retirement (or plan to)...did these parents contribute to their own parents' retirement?

My parents and my husband's parents have helped their own parents (my grandparents) significantly as they became too old to drive, to do the heavy cleaning, etc.  They have not helped financially because it hasn't been a need. 

[Mariposa]

Am I correct that it is not a stipend from you, but that your DH fields the calls and makes the decisions and you don't hear about them, and he's committed to not going over $15k/yr?

My husband has been managing his mother's finances for a while now, so he directly pays for her rent / utilities / cable / internet / cell phone / etc. This minimizes the number of emergency calls fielded about the electricity getting shut off or anything like that. We also put money toward a cash fund to replace her car / laptop / ipad / smartphone / etc, which we don't tell her about. She lives in a LCOL area, so all of this is limited to 15k a year. She gets about $1200 a month in SSD income, which she uses to buy herself food and whatever else makes her happy. DH still sometimes says things to me like, "Mom just got her check and has already bought XYZ. I'm worried her money isn't going to last until the end of the month." And I have to remind him that I don't want to know about those things.

What happened was, several years ago DH's mother had repeated ICU admissions from complications related to cirrhosis. Her life was a mess. So we got her an apartment, got her on SSD, and started managing her finances, thinking her time on the earth was limited. With the new stability in her life, MIL got herself together and completely stopped drinking. Her health then recovered. So we found ourselves in the new situation of being obligated to support her indefinitely.

I can't make my MIL as frugal as I am, and I can't change the nature of my husband's relationship with his mother. Ultimately, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the quality of my marriage over these things.

[Mariposa]

Is it really possible to be serious about FIRE without a spouse onboard? I've never been married but, I would think the obvious answer--give my experience with women I've gone on even one date with -- and it were obvious she wants nothing of my frugal lifestyle -- without even my mentioning FIRE--would be a resounding No.

Full confession: I'm maybe technically already partially "retired." I work a 60% position, which for me translates to 35 hours a week at a fairly demanding job. It's a happy balance because I only have to commute 3 days a week. We don't have the savings rate of many around here, but on 1.6 salaries, even with the support given to MIL, we're able to put away about 35% of our income. I plan on taking the glide path to FIRE: depending on how our stash grows, and DH's income in the future, I plan on going down to 40% at some point and then perhaps 20%.

DH enjoys his creature comforts, but he's willing to be be somewhat more frugal than he would be otherwise to make me happy. And I don't try to take away the comforts that make him happy: lunches and coffee out M-F, for example. He has exchanged lattes for plain drip coffee. He's also naturally not very materialistic and has no interest in shopping; he's happy to wear clothes and shoes to shreds.

[Indexer]

2. Hey, let's look into Long Term Care insurance for your parents (not always the best investment, but not always bad, either depending on family health history).
3. Hey, have you talked with your parents about where they want to live in their retirement? There's a senior center that they might enjoy -- we should look into what they can afford on SS and if we can contribute the difference.

3 is a great point. There are low cost housing options that charge based on how much SS someone gets. Plus if someone can live on <25k/yr and is fine retiring at 66 there is a good chance SS for two people will cover a lot of that.

Point 2 might not make sense for this couple. LTC insurance isn't really insurance to pay for care, if you are broke the government will pay for the care. LTC insurance is more often used as asset protection. If you want to leave 300k to your kids a LTC need will burn through that in 3-5 years. Once the money is gone the government will step in, but by then there is no inheritance left.


@OP: Since there is a good chance SS will cover a lot of it I think you might be making a bigger issue out of this than it really is. Figure out what their SS benefits will be. Can they live on that? For people with the lowest income SS can replace as much as 85% of their income. You are concerned you might be supporting them. In reality, you might just be buying them something useful(ex. a washer/dryer when the old one breaks) once in awhile to improve their lives in a way that is supporting them without fully funding their lives. A $200-500/yr problem instead of a $10,000/yr problem.

[PJ]

OP, you've gotten quite a few suggestions about practical ways to support family, and how to set limits and so on.  My post will be a little bit different.  It's more about what's going on below the surface, in your thinking about the idea, and in yours and your wife's relationships with each other and with each of your respective parents.

I'm not clear as to how much insight you have into why you hate the idea of providing some support to your IL's so much.  Of course, I don't need to be clear, but you do!  You need to understand really well what your own motivations and concerns are.  Is it the impact on your own finances?  Is there something values based, like the belief that everyone should be self-sufficient?  Is it that you don't have much family feeling toward them?  Is it disapproval of choices they've made or are still making?  (And if so, is that disapproval strongly rooted in certain morals and value - i.e if they were heroin/meth users, it would be really obvious why you disapprove?)

I got to thinking about this question of motivation because of something you said in one of your posts - that you're thinking of stopping your contributions to your parents' non-profit.  Is that because it's affecting your financial future negatively?  Is it because (in retrospect) you don't actually support that cause?  Or is it just because you're afraid that your wife will use it as leverage to force you into giving equally to her parents?  If it's the latter, it seems a bit like "cutting off your nose to spite your face" (an expression my parents used to use, though I have no idea where it came from!)  Why stop doing something loving for your parents, just to stop your wife from doing the same?

I guess what I'm getting at is that if your gifts to your parents have been motivated by approval and love and a desire to support them in their endeavours, then maybe it's not such a stretch to say that your wife, who presumably also loves her parents and wants to support them, may also desire to use some of your family resources to support her parents.  Even if the details of their life choices are different from your family's. 

To be clear, I'm not saying you should support either your family, or hers.  But I am encouraging you to understand better why you've been ok with giving your parents money, but would not be ok with doing the same for hers, and also to try to understand better why she wants to be able to support them (and as someone else has already asked, finding out how she feels about the money that's gone to your parents in the past?)

[Villanelle]

Am I correct that it is not a stipend from you, but that your DH fields the calls and makes the decisions and you don't hear about them, and he's committed to not going over $15k/yr?

My husband has been managing his mother's finances for a while now, so he directly pays for her rent / utilities / cable / internet / cell phone / etc. This minimizes the number of emergency calls fielded about the electricity getting shut off or anything like that. We also put money toward a cash fund to replace her car / laptop / ipad / smartphone / etc, which we don't tell her about. She lives in a LCOL area, so all of this is limited to 15k a year. She gets about $1200 a month in SSD income, which she uses to buy herself food and whatever else makes her happy. DH still sometimes says things to me like, "Mom just got her check and has already bought XYZ. I'm worried her money isn't going to last until the end of the month." And I have to remind him that I don't want to know about those things.

What happened was, several years ago DH's mother had repeated ICU admissions from complications related to cirrhosis. Her life was a mess. So we got her an apartment, got her on SSD, and started managing her finances, thinking her time on the earth was limited. With the new stability in her life, MIL got herself together and completely stopped drinking. Her health then recovered. So we found ourselves in the new situation of being obligated to support her indefinitely.

I can't make my MIL as frugal as I am, and I can't change the nature of my husband's relationship with his mother. Ultimately, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the quality of my marriage over these things.

This all sounds incredibly healthy, and I hope I can get to this point mentally, if we are someday in a similar situation.

[Mr Chin Stubble]

OP, you've gotten quite a few suggestions about practical ways to support family, and how to set limits and so on.  My post will be a little bit different.  It's more about what's going on below the surface, in your thinking about the idea, and in yours and your wife's relationships with each other and with each of your respective parents.

I'm not clear as to how much insight you have into why you hate the idea of providing some support to your IL's so much.  Of course, I don't need to be clear, but you do!  You need to understand really well what your own motivations and concerns are.  Is it the impact on your own finances?  Is there something values based, like the belief that everyone should be self-sufficient?  Is it that you don't have much family feeling toward them?  Is it disapproval of choices they've made or are still making?  (And if so, is that disapproval strongly rooted in certain morals and value - i.e if they were heroin/meth users, it would be really obvious why you disapprove?)

I got to thinking about this question of motivation because of something you said in one of your posts - that you're thinking of stopping your contributions to your parents' non-profit.  Is that because it's affecting your financial future negatively?  Is it because (in retrospect) you don't actually support that cause?  Or is it just because you're afraid that your wife will use it as leverage to force you into giving equally to her parents?  If it's the latter, it seems a bit like "cutting off your nose to spite your face" (an expression my parents used to use, though I have no idea where it came from!)  Why stop doing something loving for your parents, just to stop your wife from doing the same?

I guess what I'm getting at is that if your gifts to your parents have been motivated by approval and love and a desire to support them in their endeavours, then maybe it's not such a stretch to say that your wife, who presumably also loves her parents and wants to support them, may also desire to use some of your family resources to support her parents.  Even if the details of their life choices are different from your family's. 

To be clear, I'm not saying you should support either your family, or hers.  But I am encouraging you to understand better why you've been ok with giving your parents money, but would not be ok with doing the same for hers, and also to try to understand better why she wants to be able to support them (and as someone else has already asked, finding out how she feels about the money that's gone to your parents in the past?)

I think  it obvious this his parents are self sufficient where hers are not. He seems to want to spend the money productively. I.e. it will do some good giving to his parents. Not to mention it could be a small amount of money. By the sound of things her parents need a lot more money -- 6 figures--and will continue to do nothing in terms of supporting themselves.

[Raenia]

OP, you've gotten quite a few suggestions about practical ways to support family, and how to set limits and so on.  My post will be a little bit different.  It's more about what's going on below the surface, in your thinking about the idea, and in yours and your wife's relationships with each other and with each of your respective parents.

I'm not clear as to how much insight you have into why you hate the idea of providing some support to your IL's so much.  Of course, I don't need to be clear, but you do!  You need to understand really well what your own motivations and concerns are.  Is it the impact on your own finances?  Is there something values based, like the belief that everyone should be self-sufficient?  Is it that you don't have much family feeling toward them?  Is it disapproval of choices they've made or are still making?  (And if so, is that disapproval strongly rooted in certain morals and value - i.e if they were heroin/meth users, it would be really obvious why you disapprove?)

I got to thinking about this question of motivation because of something you said in one of your posts - that you're thinking of stopping your contributions to your parents' non-profit.  Is that because it's affecting your financial future negatively?  Is it because (in retrospect) you don't actually support that cause?  Or is it just because you're afraid that your wife will use it as leverage to force you into giving equally to her parents?  If it's the latter, it seems a bit like "cutting off your nose to spite your face" (an expression my parents used to use, though I have no idea where it came from!)  Why stop doing something loving for your parents, just to stop your wife from doing the same?

I guess what I'm getting at is that if your gifts to your parents have been motivated by approval and love and a desire to support them in their endeavours, then maybe it's not such a stretch to say that your wife, who presumably also loves her parents and wants to support them, may also desire to use some of your family resources to support her parents.  Even if the details of their life choices are different from your family's. 

To be clear, I'm not saying you should support either your family, or hers.  But I am encouraging you to understand better why you've been ok with giving your parents money, but would not be ok with doing the same for hers, and also to try to understand better why she wants to be able to support them (and as someone else has already asked, finding out how she feels about the money that's gone to your parents in the past?)

I think  it obvious this his parents are self sufficient where hers are not. He seems to want to spend the money productively. I.e. it will do some good giving to his parents. Not to mention it could be a small amount of money. By the sound of things her parents need a lot more money -- 6 figures--and will continue to do nothing in terms of supporting themselves.

I believe OP also said that they are not paying money directly to his parents, they are donating to the non-profit his parents work for.  So it's charitable giving, not direct parental support.

[RyanAtTanagra]

Posting to follow, as I'm going to run into this at some point with one of my parents as well and I'm not sure yet what I'm going to do, and there are some good perspectives in here, on both sides.  I love my parents, they did a lot for me, but when they retire I'll (hopefully) have kids of my own.  Should I really be expected to financially support 3 generations at once?  My parents didn't have to support theirs, I don't expect my (future) kids to support me... So my parents basically spent all their money, all their parents money (from what inheritance they got), and now they get to spend my money?  I obviously don't have an answer yet.  The heart says 'but it's family!', but the head wants to rip the hair off itself.

Also wanted to comment on buying your in-laws a house.  I've heard someone talk about doing that (may have been here).  Basically their mother would talk about how generous their other sibling was whenever they would spend money on them, even though it was 1/10th what the house was costing them every month.  They got to hear about how much their other sibling loved her, etc etc.  So if you go that route, just be ready for that possibility.

[Laura33]

OP, you've gotten quite a few suggestions about practical ways to support family, and how to set limits and so on.  My post will be a little bit different.  It's more about what's going on below the surface, in your thinking about the idea, and in yours and your wife's relationships with each other and with each of your respective parents.

I'm not clear as to how much insight you have into why you hate the idea of providing some support to your IL's so much.  Of course, I don't need to be clear, but you do!  You need to understand really well what your own motivations and concerns are.  Is it the impact on your own finances?  Is there something values based, like the belief that everyone should be self-sufficient?  Is it that you don't have much family feeling toward them?  Is it disapproval of choices they've made or are still making?  (And if so, is that disapproval strongly rooted in certain morals and value - i.e if they were heroin/meth users, it would be really obvious why you disapprove?)

I got to thinking about this question of motivation because of something you said in one of your posts - that you're thinking of stopping your contributions to your parents' non-profit.  Is that because it's affecting your financial future negatively?  Is it because (in retrospect) you don't actually support that cause?  Or is it just because you're afraid that your wife will use it as leverage to force you into giving equally to her parents?  If it's the latter, it seems a bit like "cutting off your nose to spite your face" (an expression my parents used to use, though I have no idea where it came from!)  Why stop doing something loving for your parents, just to stop your wife from doing the same?

I guess what I'm getting at is that if your gifts to your parents have been motivated by approval and love and a desire to support them in their endeavours, then maybe it's not such a stretch to say that your wife, who presumably also loves her parents and wants to support them, may also desire to use some of your family resources to support her parents.  Even if the details of their life choices are different from your family's. 

To be clear, I'm not saying you should support either your family, or hers.  But I am encouraging you to understand better why you've been ok with giving your parents money, but would not be ok with doing the same for hers, and also to try to understand better why she wants to be able to support them (and as someone else has already asked, finding out how she feels about the money that's gone to your parents in the past?)

+1.  What you think is [smart/wise/good/right] to do with your family finances, and what you think is [proper/appropriate/required] treatment of the generation that raised you gets you exactly halfway to the answer. 

[NoVa]

Ok, here we go. Mother and step-father retire and move to a LCOL area where they have friends but several hours away from any family. She was a retired waitress, he worked for the railroad. Eventually, he passed away. Railroad retirement was slightly better than social security, so she now gets that. But they had zero savings, the houses we had lived in growing up were all rented, etc.. My wife and I sat down with her and looked at the finances. She is a bit short even in a LCOL area with cheap rent to make it. Not doing anything extravagant, just basic bills and medicine. My choices were to subsidize her or have her live with me. Really not much of a choice, she was mentally fine, all her friends lived there, I couldn't begin to compete with her housing costs in my HCOL area. So for the next 10-11 years I sent her a check for $300 every month. She knitted and sold those small items in a local craft store for extra pocket money and social interaction, she volunteered, her quality of life was pretty good.

Eventually an inheritance came up, a house that my step-father was owed 1/3 of was sold. Unfortunately, the executors of that original will are long gone, so the money was sent to the courts. It cost me about $6,000 in attorney fees to get her inheritance, no one trying to steal it, that was just the process. At that point she was set until she could no longer live without assistance, my brother took her in.

In my case the decision was easy, what was best for her was also the least expensive in terms of money and least disruptive for both her and me.

[PJ]

Nothing more to add to the thread, but following along out of interest.  And noticed that now I'm getting ads at the bottom of the screen for a local retirement living place!

[Slow&Steady]

...
I'm definitely leaning toward stopping the contributions to my parents non-profit.  I think this just adds to the problems.  I might have to talk about that with my dad sooner rather than later.
...

I strongly suggest you do this before you approach your DW about not supporting her parents.  If my DH told me that he did not want to help support my parents after we had been contributing monthly to his parents.  There would be huge fight, centering around him being a giant hypocrite. Your entire argument of helping her parents adds years you have to work goes out the window, supporting your parents are doing the same thing.  I know you said it is a small amount monthly, but it is still money that you are not saving towards your ER goal.

I know the money is going to your parent's non-profit but that doesn't really matter, you are giving it in support of your parents not because you and your spouse agree that it is a cause you want to support by extending your working years.

[Bateaux]

The potential of having to support parents or possibly children has to be worked into the FIRE plan.  It would be wonderful for everyone to be able to just plan to support themselves in FIRE.  Often that isn't the case.  Plan for it as a possibility when you are still in accumulation phase and you'll have more tools to handle it if it comes. 

[SwordGuy]

If my husband were against me supporting my parents in retirement, well... I don't think I'd have a husband anymore. My parents made some pretty bad financial mistakes; they also raised my siblings and me and are among my best friends.

Assuming your wife feels anywhere near as strongly as I do about this, tread carefully. Some non-inflammatory ideas:
1. Hey, we've been contributing X amount to my parents' non-profit; I'd like to contribute an equal amount to an account to be set aside for when your parents need help.
2. Hey, let's look into Long Term Care insurance for your parents (not always the best investment, but not always bad, either depending on family health history).
3. Hey, have you talked with your parents about where they want to live in their retirement? There's a senior center that they might enjoy -- we should look into what they can afford on SS and if we can contribute the difference.

If you don't want them living with you, plan now.

Does your wife have any siblings to share the burden with?

I grew up knowing we kids would be helping our parents as they aged. It was one of those not-joke jokes we heard growing up since they'd spent every penny taking care of us, had some bad luck, and, yes, made some bad choices, but with the best intentions.

Right now it sounds like time is on your side. Ask your wife what caring for her parents looks like to her. Let her know the limits you currently are feeling. Come to a decision -- likely a line item in your budget for saving for their care.

Your response to your wife's desire to buy her parents a house with your shared fantasy $1 million was identical to my ex-boyfriend's many, many years ago. It's one of the reasons he became an ex. My husband is totally on board helping people out in both our families.

I just want to compliment you for giving truly good advice.

It will be hard for your spouse to get mad at you when you start the discussion with "Let's help your parents this way and this way and this way."   

[COEE]

I too feel like I have received some great advice here.  I'm planning to talk about this with my wife soon.  I think I'm going to take the approach of helping her family - if they need it... but I want to put some financial or time limits on it as well.  I'm starting to heavily consider purchasing them a house in a LCOL area.  This way I will at least see the money again someday and can also possibly get some tax advantages due to it.  This way they have a place of their own to live but SS should be adequate to provide most necessities.

I just wanted to thank everyone for the good input.

[Mezzie]

Best of luck in your discussion. I hope you can come to a conclusion that is satisfactory for everyone. :)

[Erica]

Just some thoughts-
Her parents can live just fine in low income apartments aka subsidized housing where they charge a set 30% of their income. They often come with free internet & water and the electricity bill is very economical. I have a few clients in subsidized housing. For the Senior apartments, they need to be 65+ but there are also other apartments available with no age requirement. The list here is 2-3 years for subsidized housing. It's pertinent to get on the list now. That will eliminate the housing issue. These developments are usually located where public transportation is available.

With regards to your parents, I wouldn't be happy if you were supporting them over my parents. Especially if my parents are destitute and trying to to the best of their abilities to stay afloat. It isn't clear why you would be working extra years to fund their retirement. That sounds a bit bizarre All they need is their expenses lowered to their income level. It can be done. If they need to move, I'd assist with those expenses. Regarding your MIL, it sounds as if she has more than anxiety but maybe PTSD from trauma and maybe panic attacks. It's been proven gardening, well the dirt, has the same effect as antidepressents/anxiety meds. It can really help her mood.
http://www.healinglandscapes.org/blog/2011/01/its-in-the-dirt-bacteria-in-soil-makes-us-happier-smarter/

You guys don't sound financially secure enough to be funding your parents endeavors  such as their non-profit. Taking money from my 25 year old son in that manner is just not acceptable to me. I'd need to be quite desperate so I'm wondering if your parents aren't as well off as they present themselves to be. It's likely one of us will be some level of burden to our son in old age, so why start now? that's just the circle of life. Btw, you sound like a nice person and a really good husband. I hope this issue gets resolved.

[kei te pai]

Thanks so much for the link Erica, I read or heard about this a few years ago and had looked and looked for the source information without success . As a happy gardener I am sure its true!

[Erica]

You're very welcome! Nice to meet you