Super-tiny house (1sm/9sf), thought-provoking

[igthebold]

http://realestate.yahoo.com/news/now-that-s-a-tiny-house--1-square-meter.html

I like ideas like this, and this one seems a lot more DIY-able than some I've seen. I almost want to build one of these, then go through the process of living in it, only in my back yard. I also love the idea of getting my children to think in terms of living in one of these things, just to see where they take it as they get older. The suburban concept of living spaces definitely needs an overhaul.

[kolorado]

That isn't a house, it's shelter. There's a big difference. Where does one prepare food, keep a change of clothes, bathe? A house addresses these basic needs as well as the need for shelter from the elements.
I've been a follower of tiny house culture for almost 10 years now and this is a huge pet peeve of mine.
Another is when people are praised to the skies for building a tiny home. They usually link it with a book deal, a blog or documentary. And then in the fine print you read that they don't live in the structure full time. So what they built was a second home. An RV. A playhouse. A marketing ploy or curiosity project. They actually created more waste by owning even more square footage than before. It's absurd to say such people are "living tiny".

[Jamesqf]

I have a couple that're even smaller, and I can fold them up, put them in my backpack or on my bike, and travel with them.

The absurdly tiny house thing seems as ridiculous in its way as the absurdly large house.  Both glorify their various inefficiencies and egoisms at the expense of livability.  I'm much more a fan of Susanka's "The Not So Big House" approach:

Not So Big doesn't necessarily mean small. It means not as big as you thought you needed, but designed and built to perfectly suit the way you live.

http://www.notsobighouse.com/

[igthebold]

I agree with all the comments so far. No, it's not a house. No, a house doesn't have to be tiny to be efficient. However, I do love forcing myself through limitations to see what interesting and useful ideas come out on the other side.

[Gerard]

Yeah, but it's not really supposed to be a house. It's a "house". The idea of a house. It (literally!) turns the idea of "house" on its side.

That said, I'm totally with Kolorado on the tiny house thing more broadly. Even a lot of the Susanka houses (and those in related books) are second homes for people, and the ones that are first homes are often on 5 acres in a forest, a 50-km drive from the owners' workplaces. I love the idea of living small, and I wish my 960-sq-ft house was a lot smaller, but you're not improving the world by building small houses on huge lots. Especially on huge lots that used to be farmland.

[James81]

I think it's kind of neat. Last summer I experimented with "homelessness." It wasn't full blown homelessness as I actually had a place to stay whenever I wanted (and stayed there on weekends and a night or two through the week).

But the whole experience really taught me that it's fully possible to live *without* a home if you live in the right town. I found a nice coffee house (that sat inside a huge grocery store) for the place where I could go to get on the computer, watch movies, etc. if I wanted to do that. They had some comfortable chairs and even a couch if I wanted to lay down (which I rarely used). Of course, the food I ate come mostly from restaurants, but it's entirely possible to eat healthy with that lifestyle. I was fortunate that the coffee house I went to was inside a 24 hour grocery chain, so I had access to it all night if I wanted to, plus anything I wanted to eat was right there. I'd go back and grab a salad or a sub or some fruit and vegetables, go pay for it, and sit and eat it while I chilled on the net.

I was able to score three free weeks at a local gym (and if I would have continued with my experiement beyond that, the membership would have been like 50 bucks a month). This had a dual purpose...it was a great motivator for me to exercise, because I felt funny just walking in to take a shower. So, I'd hit the treadmill for an hour in the morning and take my shower there. And it was a pretty nice gym, so the showers were nice and the whole place was homey.

So, in just a few weeks, I was able to work out how I could get my meals, how I could get my showers, and where I could go to relax and chill. I used to brag that my kitchen was in one place, my bathroom was in another, and my living room was in another. :D

The only problem I couldn't quite work out was where exactly to sleep. I bought a tent, but I figured that doing that would be pretty rough during the winter. I couldn't think of any public places where I could crash without being discovered. So, I wound up sleeping my car (which is a Tracker, so I had enough room to put the seats down and lay out). It wasn't a good solution, though.

It was such a great experience because I really begin to figure out ways to mobilize my life and I felt a huge sense of accomplishment in doing something that not many people do. I would love to return and do a full blown trial of that life, so seeing this thread makes me wonder if this could be a potential solution to the sleeping arrangement issue. I also thought a small camper would be cool, but that is kinda *cheating* in a way.

[Jamesqf]

...the ones that are first homes are often on 5 acres in a forest...

And why shouldn't they be?  5 acres is perhaps enough for livability, though I'd really want about 10 acres or so of horse pasture as well.

Perhaps you're not improving the world by building such houses, but you're doing the best you can to obtain a reasonable quality of life despite what the rest of the world does to you.

[igthebold]

It occurs to me that living frugally requires what, in the business world, you call Working Capital. That is, you have to own stuff in order to take advantage of savings. E.g.
- if you buy groceries for a family, you need a place to stockpile, at least a little
- you need a fridge so your veggies don't rot, which is a waste, OR
- you need sunlight and a place to put plants so you can grow a garden, AND/OR
- you need tools to preserve your produce
- you need transportation of some kind, since few places have grocery stores within walking distance

The more working capital you require, the less nimble you become.

This guy doesn't live as frugally as he could, but he does have lots of flexibility.

Moreover, simplifying your working capital requirements is a great way of saving money and increasing flexibility. E.g.
- you start off being a gourmand, but decide to simplify your cooking. This allows you to sell half your kitchen stuff, and focus on buying cheaper items in bulk (lentils, grain, eggs, etc).
- you collect model trains, but decide you don't love it as much as you love FI. This allows you to convert those into $$ on eBay, free up floor space, etc.
- your 6-month-old is potty trained early, Chinese-style. This allows you to ditch the whole diaper thing. Conversely, though, it makes some things more difficult, since you can't on, well, you know.

So, this house is a very Working Capital-light setup, but that means you have to eat out all the time, find places to stretch your legs and relax, find places to hang out with your friends, etc.

There's give-and-take between frugality and working capital requirements.. the process called "life" can be done any number of ways, and Mustachioed Money Muchachos(as) (sorry, it's forced, I know) are always tweaking the process in a way that reduces working capital without sacrificing important values.

[Jamesqf]

I guess I approach frugality a lot differently than some.  It is not an end in itself, but a search for ways to best apply my limited amount of working capital to get & do the things that I really enjoy, rather than what society says I ought to have & do.  So I could perhaps live more frugally if I sold the house, cars, & assorted stuff, and moved into a pen - excuse me, apartment! - in one of those human equivalents of cattle feedlots.  But I wouldn't enjoy life nearly as much.

[Gerard]

...the ones that are first homes are often on 5 acres in a forest...

And why shouldn't they be?  5 acres is perhaps enough for livability, though I'd really want about 10 acres or so of horse pasture as well.
Perhaps you're not improving the world by building such houses, but you're doing the best you can to obtain a reasonable quality of life despite what the rest of the world does to you.

I'm not doubting that horse pasture is nice, if you like that sort of thing. My point is that the ideology of the Susanka crowd is that less is more, but their "less" stops at the front door. Those houses are just smaller McMansions, with owners doing mega-commutes.

[Grigory]

This just goes to show that extremes can be counter-productive and inefficient. A super-tiny house is just as bad as a McMansion. Living on noodles and boasting of a $50 monthly food budget is as bad for one's health as gorging on fast food all day long. It's all about finding that perfect equilibrium. :)

[igthebold]

It's all about finding that perfect equilibrium. :)

I like to think of ramen noodles as false frugality. There are things you have to do to succeed at the business of survival, and ruining your health isn't one of them. So yeah, that equilibrium is somewhere on the high ground in between the morass of miserliness (false frugality), and the.. um.. waste of wastefulness?

PS - sorry.. ;)

[Jamesqf]

I'm not doubting that horse pasture is nice, if you like that sort of thing. My point is that the ideology of the Susanka crowd is that less is more, but their "less" stops at the front door. Those houses are just smaller McMansions, with owners doing mega-commutes.

I don't agree about the "less is more" part.  At least that's not what I get out of it.  It's more like "right-sizing" (to use another buzzword), in that a "not-so-big" house is neither too big nor too small, but just right.

Now I don't know anything about the commutes of the typical "not-so-big" house owner, but I know mine consists of walking into the office and turning on the computer.  But again, this is more right-sizing than less-is-more, because you do what you need to do to support a quality of life, without being deluded by the consumerist world into believing that improving quality of life means buying all their stuff.

----

I think ramen noodles are quite a handy base for a quick soup.  Add celery, carrots, green onions, peppers, a tablespoon or so of chopped ginger, perhaps some leftover chicken or turkey...

[carolinakaren]

I've often thought that the way James81 lived during his experiment is exactly the thing I would do if I ever became homeless.  There are gyms in Charlotte that cost only $10/month.....homeless doesn't have to mean dirty! ;)  Like he said it's a good motivator to be fit as well.  I have scoured the internet over the past few years for ways to live that can decrease costs without sacrificing comfort.  Some of the options I've seen are RV living, sailboat living, tiny houses, and shipping containers converted into housing.  There are alot of cool ideas out there! 

[igthebold]

I think ramen noodles are quite a handy base for a quick soup.  Add celery, carrots, green onions, peppers, a tablespoon or so of chopped ginger, perhaps some leftover chicken or turkey...

The point, which I guess I didn't make well, is that if you treat your body poorly in order to save money, you are not being truly frugal.. perhaps miserly is a better term.

[Jamesqf]

The point, which I guess I didn't make well, is that if you treat your body poorly in order to save money, you are not being truly frugal.. perhaps miserly is a better term.

True, and I did get that.  I was just pointing out that cheap and good aren't 100% correlated: cheap ramen + cheap veggies = halfway decent quick soup.  (And putting a lot of ginger in chicken-flavor ramen helps clear my stuffy nose, too.)

[igthebold]

True, and I did get that.  I was just pointing out that cheap and good aren't 100% correlated: cheap ramen + cheap veggies = halfway decent quick soup.  (And putting a lot of ginger in chicken-flavor ramen helps clear my stuffy nose, too.)

It's a good point too. And probably quite healthful, despite the sodium. Veggies are great.

I'll occasionally only put half a packet in the broth, and a spoonful of miso. Turns out really well, and gives you some of the benefits of fermented foods that way. Hm. Perhaps we should start a ramen hacks post.. ;)

[Gerard]

My point is that the ideology of the Susanka crowd is that less is more, but their "less" stops at the front door. Those houses are just smaller McMansions, with owners doing mega-commutes.

I don't agree about the "less is more" part.  At least that's not what I get out of it.  It's more like "right-sizing" (to use another buzzword), in that a "not-so-big" house is neither too big nor too small, but just right.

OK, I can see that. Somehow that makes it a little less appealing, but that's my problem.

Now I don't know anything about the commutes of the typical "not-so-big" house owner, but I know mine consists of walking into the office and turning on the computer. 

I'm going by what I read in her books -- many of the homes are exurban retreats for people who still work in the big city; some of them are second homes. I guess a 1500-sq-ft second home is better than a 3000-sq-ft one...

you do what you need to do to support a quality of life, without being deluded by the consumerist world into believing that improving quality of life means buying all their stuff.

What you said.

[Jamesqf]

I don't agree about the "less is more" part.  At least that's not what I get out of it.  It's more like "right-sizing" (to use another buzzword), in that a "not-so-big" house is neither too big nor too small, but just right.

OK, I can see that. Somehow that makes it a little less appealing, but that's my problem.

Perhaps my attitude is better expressed by the Colin Chapman philosophy of automotive design: "Simplify, then add lightness".

[igthebold]

I'm going by what I read in her books -- many of the homes are exurban retreats for people who still work in the big city; some of them are second homes. I guess a 1500-sq-ft second home is better than a 3000-sq-ft one...

I had the same impression of her books. It was like what she was really promoting was, "Instead of buying a 5000sf McMansion for $1mil, why don't you build a 2000sf house with good design.. for $1mil?" I did like the emphasis, but all the examples were out of my price range, leading me to make the biggest financial mistake of my career (building a house). My fault, of course, but it's so easy to get caught up in it when you agree with the fundamental idea.

[jawisco]

What a great conversation - with lots of good points about working capital, simplicity, and balance.  Wish I had read anything like this when I was younger - learning some of the lessons posted here took me years - good years, and interesting years, but...

After living on my bike for months at a time, in my van on the streets of a city, serial house-sitting, and of course sublet apartments, I vote for my current situation (at least for me) - living in a 850sf house in a small rural town that has all the basic stores (gas, grocery, hardware, lumber) that cost very little (15K) and has low taxes ($250/year). 

This gives me a place to live, grow food, prepare food, and work on projects that interest me, and is also cheap enough to maintain empty that I could travel/live somewhere else without it being a financial drain. 

The problem is, I have acquired too much other working capital, and have recently figured out that the upkeep, maintenance, and simple storage of this stuff drains off too much time and energy.  Instead of adding to life, it subtracts...

Finding good balance is always a challenge, and probably keeps changing as life goes forward.  It is a fun challenge either way!

[Bakari]

Someone just showed me this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG0aRjKDnKo&feature=g-vrec

which is a pretty similar concept (super tiny, super cheap) but seems a lot more practical.

most people wouldn't want to use it as permanent dwelling, but it could have some very practical applications

[igthebold]

Thanks Bakari. I love reading the output of that kind of creativity.

[TomTX]

Bakari - that one looks a lot more practical.

[liquidbanana]

Man, I agree with those who think the tiny house movement is getting a little obnoxious. I have yet to see much of anything practical come out of it. And yes, I would be all for living in a reasonably tiny house, if it was practical at all for me.

I can either choose to live in the middle of nowhere where there are no zoning laws or in a trailer park. I'm not going to live in the middle of nowhere because then I'd have to drive everywhere. That's not simple living.

As far as the trailer park, that is not financially beneficial for me either. I can buy a regular sized house for nearly the cost of most tiny houses and own it AND the land. If I live in a trailer park, not only am I likely out in the middle of sprawl because trailer parks aren't usually near urban cores, but I'm paying to rent the land for life.

People in this movement who feel so strongly about it need to stop designing more tiny houses (and trying to rent them out to me!) and work on the political issues that make tiny houses a stupid idea for almost everyone.

And unless you are a super minimalist on some soul searching experiment who will be living amongst nature like a native American or something, a 1 square meter box is not a home. It's a box.

Sorry, I'm just tired of people marketing very expensive boxes to me! :)

[igthebold]

Man, I agree with those who think the tiny house movement is getting a little obnoxious. I have yet to see much of anything practical come out of it. And yes, I would be all for living in a reasonably tiny house, if it was practical at all for me.

I look at it more like I look at the fashion industry: they design outrageous stuff, eventually clothing lines turn the ideas into practical reality. The "obnoxious" designs are more of the envelope-pushing, thought-provoking type.

[Bakari]

Who is marketing tiny houses to you?
All I have ever seen or heard of them I had to actively seek out on the internet.

[liquidbanana]

Mostly the people I opt-in to receive marketing from. So I should just shut up, really.

But I was kinda ranting about inhabitat a little too. That is where I've seen those super tiny houses like the OP is talking about. I don't want to unsubscribe from them, because they do have some really good posts, but it's also littered with a lot of useless stuff that frustrates me. I mean, if it was just a "thought-provoking" design blog, that would be one thing. But it's suppose to be design that will "save the world." And so much of it is just useless bourgeois stuff.

[TomTX]

The thread-starter tiny house is pretty useless.

Bakari's link actually looks useful.

[smalllife]

Personally I think more work needs to be done to override zoning and building restrictions that essentially force the designers to work with trailers (to be designated as an RV rather than a building).  There are some ridiculous minimum square footage requirements out there.  Extremely tiny homes are not for everyone. Very small homes are much more versatile, albeit illegal in many building codes. 

[crystalwheel]

Having lived in a travel trailer twice in my lifetime, I would have to say that those times were just passage times to more permanent homes.  Both times I also had storage where I kept most of my "stuff".  I've lived in apartments, a mobile home in both a trailer part and on 1 acre of land in the country.  Also a ranch house in a suburb...actually I've moved and lived in 39 different places.  Two continents, but only 3 states in the US.

We are now retired, living on 2 acres in Central Texas.  We have a 60 year old 3 bedroom, 1 bath house.  Two Morgan portable buildings.  My husband and I each have our own (we refer to them as Studios).  His is essentially a man-cave while mine houses my book business.  Oh, there's a shop, a small guest house, a barn with a lean-to shed and a chicken house.
 
Everything but my building is paid for...so my business pays for it.

In September I went to New York City to see my favorite band, Roxette...essentially almost free because most of the trip was paid for by Reward Miles and Credit card promotions.  I stayed in a private apartment at 92nd street and Broadway...I mile from the Beacon Theatre where Roxette was playing for $48.00 a night.

So my point is this:   Spending time to think about and decide what kind of life you want and where you want that life to be is one of the most profitable activities you can participate in.  What kind of life is what matters most to you...regardless of what others think about it.  Finding a partner who wants the same is like money in the bank. 

So, fellow Mustachians...go forth, keep moving in the direction of your dreams...if I can do it, practically by default at my age...so can those of you who have youth on your side.

PS - We have two adult children - 22 and 24 who are Jr. Mustachians... Do the math, we had our own grandchildren!

[Bakari]

Personally I think more work needs to be done to override zoning and building restrictions that essentially force the designers to work with trailers (to be designated as an RV rather than a building).  There are some ridiculous minimum square footage requirements out there.  Extremely tiny homes are not for everyone. Very small homes are much more versatile, albeit illegal in many building codes.

Actually, this is a loophole I'm hoping to take advantage of one day.
A living structure on wheels above 400sq ft counts as a mobile home.
Under it counts as an RV.
Mobile homes are considered buildings, while RVs are considered vehicles - which means:
You pay DMV registration on it, instead of property taxes.
A covered porch or a internal loft don't count towards the sq footage, so a number of manufacturers are making 2 story "RVs" with exactly 400 sq ft of interior space, plus huge covered porches.  They look like small houses, inside and out, but if you live in one on your own land, you pay property taxes for an improved lot, not a house.
Of course you usually can't do that in cities, but in lots of rural areas there are often no codes against it, and I'd like to move somewhere rural once I am FI anyway.

And 400sq ft is freggin HUGE!!!!!!!
I currently live in about 250, and have for the past 7 years.
2 Humans and one cat. 
Which itself feel luxurious, compared to the roughly 150 sq ft I lived in for the five years prior to that (with another human and 2 cats).

If I have a kid, I'm thinking they could have the loft room for the first decade or so, and then when they are ready, they could move into their own RV parked next door for more space and privacy.

[smalllife]

Of course you usually can't do that in cities, but in lots of rural areas there are often no codes against it, and I'd like to move somewhere rural once I am FI anyway.

In the cities the most often cited minimum square footage I've heard for "RV" status is 120 sq feet (or the trailer beds you so often see as the foundation for tiny homes), which was the impetus for my comment.   My thoughts tend more towards urban areas, where a half lot or an extra large backyard could easily fit a 500sq ft home but where building codes prohibit it (second dwelling restrictions, permit restrictions, etc. etc.).  I see tiny homes as a very real solution to urban futures - one that allows Americans to have their own structure but compact enough to curb excessive lifestyles.   

[Bakari]

120?  I strongly doubt that it true anywhere.  Like I said, I have 250, and this is most definitely a travel trailer, not a mobile home.  There may be other, non-size features, like whether its placed on a solid foundation, and whether the plumbing and electrical connections are hardwired, but simply being more than 120sq ft does not make an RV into a permanent structure.
I do agree with the general principal of your objection, there isn't really any good reason I shouldn't be allowed to buy an empty improved lot and live in it in my current RV in the city, and I would certainly prefer paying property tax on a lot to paying trailer park rent every month.

[Gerard]

A covered porch or a internal loft don't count towards the sq footage, so a number of manufacturers are making 2 story "RVs" with exactly 400 sq ft of interior space, plus huge covered porches. 

A similar strategy that I've seen is an unheated uninsulated outbuilding that can be used 6-9 months of the year as guest housing and party space. That could work for me... nobody wants to visit me in the winter anyway.