Author Topic: Student life; student loans; costs of college; now and then; "kids these days"  (Read 29432 times)

Rural

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Actually, I think the dorm or "dorm or family" requirement is more about safety and retention than any kind of fuzzy "experience" reasoning. You have 17-19 year olds that are out from under their family's wing for the first time in their lives. It is expected that left to their own devices many of them will do something stupid. Dorms allow at least some level of supervision and intervention by the school (through dorm staff, etc). I'm sure numbers have shown that students living in dorms do better in classes and have lower attrition rates than those in apartments off campus.


You know, I've never seen a study on this one way or the other in all my years in higher ed. That's very interesting, because usually the student life people are trying hard to justify themselves. Surely there's been something done.

Modern dorms, though, have a lot less supervision (often none) than the dorms I remember from when I was in college.

beltim

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Schools that require living on campus usually justify it by arguing that you get more out of the college experience by living with other students, and they often set up dorms and floors to give you exposure to people from different places or socioeconomic backgrounds.  I found that it was tremendous to have a high concentration of very intelligent people in one place, some of whom were interested in completely different things than I was.

I still call scam. Even assuming it's such a phenomenal benefit, AND assuming (this is the implicit assumption) that you wouldn't live with other students if you lived off campus (which of course isn't true--most students who rent share houses with other students), that still doesn't justify the rents they charge--and of course nothing justifies the meal plan requirement.

You would probably live with other students, sure, but I don't think you'd get the same exposure to people -- simply by looking at apartments at the same rent you're likely selecting people of similar socioeconomic backgrounds as you.

As for extortionate rents, that varies.  There are same places that charge above market rents, and others that charge below market rents. 

And I'm glad you agree with me about meal plans.

luigi49

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I stayed in the dorm for the first year and have a horrible experience.  Although the experience at the time was tolerable because of the new experience overall it wasn't worth it.   Some of the difficulty living in the dorm is
1. no privacy
2. cannot sleep well because roommates are too noisy or they get home late.
3. sharing bathroom with 6 people.

Dorm or off campus my grades are the same. 

galliver

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I stayed in the dorm for the first year and have a horrible experience.  Although the experience at the time was tolerable because of the new experience overall it wasn't worth it.   Some of the difficulty living in the dorm is
1. no privacy
2. cannot sleep well because roommates are too noisy or they get home late.
3. sharing bathroom with 6 people.

Dorm or off campus my grades are the same.

1. Talk to roommate(s)  2. Talk to roommate(s)  3. I don't see a problem.

MrsPete

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It's partly a supply/demand thing.

The biggest part, however, is that student loans and aid create a huge price disconnect that allows the price to rise and rise and rise....

Everyone knows the loans must be paid back "some day" but the average 18 year old is not equipped to make long term financial decisions, and as Mustachians we know the majority of their parents aren't either. If student loan packages came with the same warnings credit card statement came with (e.g. here's your payment per month, how long it will take, etc) that would remove some of the disconnect.

It also doesn't help that, while schools offer financial counseling, the vast majority of those "counselors" are acting in the SCHOOL's interest, not the students.

agreed. part of me would like to see creditors start limiting student loans the way other loans are limited... maybe even linked to what someone's going to school for and the demand in that field. making them dischargeable in bankruptcy would probably force this to happen. I know this would totally SUCK for the first several years, would prevent a lot of people from being able to go to school (at least right out of high school) (but maybe this isn't SUCH a bad thing?), and would probably bankrupt many schools since they would have to change their whole business model but they've already sunk a bunch of capital into the climbing wall facilities etc... so it isn't really feasible, but it is tempting.

I honestly think every college loan needs to come with a 'merit' component. It's an investment by the bank or government in the person; would you really make an investment without looking at a company's track record at all? (Well, I guess you would if you were guaranteed eventual repayment with interest!) I'm sure a correlation exists between high school grades, choice of college, and chance of graduating and repaying loans. I don't have the whole system worked out in my head. I just know there is no feedback right now between lenders and the outcomes of their investments, and I think there should be. If a student doesn't graduate, or graduates with a worthless degree, that should come back to the college and the lender as a financial hit. As for students who don't make the cut, other options (at least temporarily) need to be publicized. A kid who did poorly in high school can shape up between 18 and 20, and that does also need to be acknowledged, but I think they need to show that before getting loan-type aid.
Though I'm 100% sure such a thing would never fly in real life, I think the idea isn't bad.  In addition to considering high school grades and attendance to determine the student's likely performance, I think it should also consider the potential career and the student's likelihood of getting a job in that field. 

MrsPete

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Actually, I think the dorm or "dorm or family" requirement is more about safety and retention than any kind of fuzzy "experience" reasoning. You have 17-19 year olds that are out from under their family's wing for the first time in their lives. It is expected that left to their own devices many of them will do something stupid. Dorms allow at least some level of supervision and intervention by the school (through dorm staff, etc). I'm sure numbers have shown that students living in dorms do better in classes and have lower attrition rates than those in apartments off campus.


You know, I've never seen a study on this one way or the other in all my years in higher ed. That's very interesting, because usually the student life people are trying hard to justify themselves. Surely there's been something done.

Modern dorms, though, have a lot less supervision (often none) than the dorms I remember from when I was in college.
Yes, kids who live in dorms for at least a year ARE more likely to graduate.  That's a fact. The question is, Are they more likely to graduate BECAUSE they lived in a dorm . . . or do traditional students, those who have good family support tend to live in dorms, and because of their SUPPORT they're more likely to graduate?

Personally, I think a dorm is a pretty good start in college.  I'm thinking of a friend of my daughter's who wasn't really ready to go away to college, but her parents pushed her to do so.  She was falling into some real trouble, might've even harmed herself -- but ONE of the "safety nets" that caught her was her dorm.  Her RA recognized that she wasn't fitting in and making friends, wasn't going to dinner with the other kids even when invited, wasn't see regularly in the commons area.  (Her professors also reported that she wasn't attending classes.)  Her story is sad: She dropped out and is back home, having wasted a good bit of money, BUT I'm not sure it might not've been worse . . . if she'd been living in an apartment off-campus alone and no one had noticed she was failing to acclimate. 

Bethersonton

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I lived in a dorm my first two years of college (I started in the mid-2000s). I had a 50% scholarship to this teeny tiny school. Room and board was around $7k/year (without the scholarship) including unlimited dining in the shitty cafeteria. It was ridiculously difficult learning to deal with people/roommates, but it was a great learning experience for me. Sometimes I still miss living in a place where I could sit in relative silence in my room or I could walk ten steps out the door and be involved with people in the common room. I'm one of those introverts who needs just the right amount of social interaction followed by the option of being alone in silence.

My freshman dorm's common room was renovated before I got there. The school reupholstered the simple furniture, painted, added pillows, and a put in a HUGE flat-screen TV and DVD player. This pissed me off because there was a "kitchen" on our floor that was basically a one-unit electric stove/sink/oven combo. The thing was a fire hazard. Not one person managed to make a meal without setting off the fire alarm. I was always upset that the college prioritized the TV over independence and cooking healthy meals. That's the one thing I would have changed about the dorm: having an stove that didn't smoke.

I transferred back to a state school after the second year and lived at home and graduated with no debt but that's thanks to my parents who paid for everything. My dad didn't want me to have to work during the school year (I know, I know) because he had to when he was in college. I did work in the summers and hoarded that money. I had $11k in the bank at graduation which my husband and I used to pay off his fairly modest car loan and start an emergency fund.

My husband attended the same state school where I ended up, took 18 credit hours a semester (in engineering no less) and worked 40 hours a week along with a part-time job of tutoring. He had zero financial help from family and he graduated with no debt. He lived at home but paid for all groceries, electric, cable TV that he never watched but his brother and mom did, his own cell phone bill, and he helped his mom out with repairs and regularly cooked and cleaned for her, so he wasn't freeloading. It can be done!

galliver

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My husband attended the same state school where I ended up, took 18 credit hours a semester (in engineering no less) and worked 40 hours a week along with a part-time job of tutoring. He had zero financial help from family and he graduated with no debt. He lived at home but paid for all groceries, electric, cable TV that he never watched but his brother and mom did, his own cell phone bill, and he helped his mom out with repairs and regularly cooked and cleaned for her, so he wasn't freeloading. It can be done!

Wow. That is HIGHLY impressive. Though I would question if just anyone could do it. I don't think I could, I would fall apart from stress.

Bethersonton

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My husband just wanted me to clarify: he worked 30 hours a week at his main job and 10 more with tutoring. So 40 hours total.

Still, pretty impressive.

rocksinmyhead

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My husband attended the same state school where I ended up, took 18 credit hours a semester (in engineering no less) and worked 40 hours a week along with a part-time job of tutoring. He had zero financial help from family and he graduated with no debt. He lived at home but paid for all groceries, electric, cable TV that he never watched but his brother and mom did, his own cell phone bill, and he helped his mom out with repairs and regularly cooked and cleaned for her, so he wasn't freeloading. It can be done!

Wow. That is HIGHLY impressive. Though I would question if just anyone could do it. I don't think I could, I would fall apart from stress.

agreed. holy shit! I feel like there aren't enough hours in the day for me to do that without dying. or getting 3 hours of sleep a night, which would cause me to die.

galliver

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My husband attended the same state school where I ended up, took 18 credit hours a semester (in engineering no less) and worked 40 hours a week along with a part-time job of tutoring. He had zero financial help from family and he graduated with no debt. He lived at home but paid for all groceries, electric, cable TV that he never watched but his brother and mom did, his own cell phone bill, and he helped his mom out with repairs and regularly cooked and cleaned for her, so he wasn't freeloading. It can be done!

Wow. That is HIGHLY impressive. Though I would question if just anyone could do it. I don't think I could, I would fall apart from stress.

agreed. holy shit! I feel like there aren't enough hours in the day for me to do that without dying. or getting 3 hours of sleep a night, which would cause me to die.

Glad I'm not the only one. I can stumble through the days/weeks with 6, be innovative/creative/productive with 7-8, and start dying with <6 for more than one night.

Guses

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I thought I would chime in with my perspective from the Canadian angle.

I graduated fairly recently from the Canadian system and I experienced two different universities in different provinces at the undergrad and then graduate level.

I attended undergrad at a local university while staying at home (in Canada, it is not customary to force local students to stay on Campus). Since I had worked my but off in high school, I qualified for merit scolarships that paid about 80% of my tuition (which was about $4K per trimester in 2000). My parents paid the remainder of the 20%. I worked during the summer and sessions to be able to afford a car, books and other things. Food and "basic" expenses were covered for me. I also qualified for student loans (interest free until 2 years after grad) which I took and invested in GICs. I finished an undergrad in Natural Sciences with a positive networth.

I then completed a graduate degree at another institution in a separate city. While I could live on campus, I opted for the cheaper option to rent slighlty outside of the immediate area of the university and walk there everyday (about 50 minutes walk). Again, I qualified for merit based scholarships that completely covered tuition as well as providing enough money to live on. During that time, I worked round the year as a TA and gave lab classes. All costs were covered by me during this degree. At the end of my master's degree, I had 30,000$ saved up in my bank account and a M.Sc. in Natural Sciences.

While I think that some expenses are unavoidable and that parental help is very helpful (and somewhat of a wildcard), I think that the lion's share of expenses is under the student's locus of control. By making smart decisions, you can definitely avoid having crushing debts after your education.

You don't need to go to an Ivy league college to get a good job. But you probably need to get a good job to pay for your Ivy league education... Think about this! 

 

galliver

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I thought I would chime in with my perspective from the Canadian angle.

I graduated fairly recently from the Canadian system and I experienced two different universities in different provinces at the undergrad and then graduate level.

I attended undergrad at a local university while staying at home (in Canada, it is not customary to force local students to stay on Campus). Since I had worked my but off in high school, I qualified for merit scolarships that paid about 80% of my tuition (which was about $4K per trimester in 2000). My parents paid the remainder of the 20%. I worked during the summer and sessions to be able to afford a car, books and other things. Food and "basic" expenses were covered for me. I also qualified for student loans (interest free until 2 years after grad) which I took and invested in GICs. I finished an undergrad in Natural Sciences with a positive networth.

I then completed a graduate degree at another institution in a separate city. While I could live on campus, I opted for the cheaper option to rent slighlty outside of the immediate area of the university and walk there everyday (about 50 minutes walk). Again, I qualified for merit based scholarships that completely covered tuition as well as providing enough money to live on. During that time, I worked round the year as a TA and gave lab classes. All costs were covered by me during this degree. At the end of my master's degree, I had 30,000$ saved up in my bank account and a M.Sc. in Natural Sciences.

While I think that some expenses are unavoidable and that parental help is very helpful (and somewhat of a wildcard), I think that the lion's share of expenses is under the student's locus of control. By making smart decisions, you can definitely avoid having crushing debts after your education.

You don't need to go to an Ivy league college to get a good job. But you probably need to get a good job to pay for your Ivy league education... Think about this!

You make some great points! We did cover upthread, though, that Ivies (and similar caliber newer schools) actually tend to give good aid (or maybe accept rich students?) and tend to not be where students come out with a high debt burden, on average...obviously there could easily be individual outliers! :)

MPAVictoria

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It should be pointed out that Post-Secondary Education is much cheaper in Canada than in the US. Still way higher than it used to be but much cheaper than the equivalent American experience.

grantmeaname

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Still way higher than it used to be but much cheaper than the equivalent American experience.
Not much help if you don't happen to live in Canada. And university rankings call into question what "equivalent" means.

MPAVictoria

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"Not much help if you don't happen to live in Canada. And university rankings call into question what "equivalent" means."

What an odd comment.
Canadian Universities tend to be rated quite highly. And obviously the information is mostly useful to Canadians of which there are many on this board.

grantmeaname

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And obviously the information is mostly useful to Canadians of which there are many on this board.
I'm not saying there aren't Canadians here, I'm saying that it's not really something that you can do as an individual to optimize your budget, just as I can't really minimize my healthcare spending by moving that part of my budget to Germany or Australia. Either you are already in Canada or you are already not in Canada.

Quote
Canadian Universities tend to be rated quite highly.
I'm not trying to insult your nation or anything but the US has more universities in the QS world university ranking's top 10 than Canada does in the top 150.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 01:35:46 PM by grantmeaname »

MPAVictoria

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Again weird comments!

"I'm not saying there aren't Canadians here, I'm saying that it's not really something that you can do as an individual to optimize your budget, just as I can't really minimize my healthcare spending by moving that part of my budget to Germany or Australia. Either you are already in Canada or you are already not in Canada."

Sure but people reading this may be from Canada (indeed some have actually posted on this thread) so the comment is relevant to them. You are free to keep right on reading friend. :-)

"I'm not trying to insult your nation or anything but the US has more universities in the QS world university ranking's top 10 than Canada does in the top 15"

Very true and to be expected considering that the US has ten times the population! But Canadian universities are still of a very high quality and well respected internationally. So my statement is accurate as most people in going to university in the US are not going to Harvard or Yale but to a state school.

Been great talking with you friend.

beltim

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Quote
Canadian Universities tend to be rated quite highly.
I'm not trying to insult your nation or anything but the US has more universities in the QS world university ranking's top 10 than Canada does in the top 150.

This would be useful if it weren't completely expected based on the countries relative populations.

grantmeaname

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Sure but people reading this may be from Canada (indeed some have actually posted on this thread) so the comment is relevant to them. You are free to keep right on reading friend. :-)
No it's not. They already live in Canada!

MPAVictoria

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Sure but people reading this may be from Canada (indeed some have actually posted on this thread) so the comment is relevant to them. You are free to keep right on reading friend. :-)
No it's not. They already live in Canada!

So? Sorry friend you are not making any sense.

galliver

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Sure but people reading this may be from Canada (indeed some have actually posted on this thread) so the comment is relevant to them. You are free to keep right on reading friend. :-)
No it's not. They already live in Canada!

It's relevant to understanding different people's experiences with education (the topic of this thread, after all), and how much of that can or cannot be transferred.

Also what exactly is stopping Americans (or others) from attending Canadian universities?

grantmeaname

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It's relevant to understanding different people's experiences with education (the topic of this thread, after all), and how much of that can or cannot be transferred.
Okay, I suppose that's true.

Quote
Also what exactly is stopping Americans (or others) from attending Canadian universities?
Nothing, but it's no longer cheap when you pay the $20,000 upcharge for not being Canadian.

Guses

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Not much help if you don't happen to live in Canada. And university rankings call into question what "equivalent" means.

Is that what you mean to say: "Whaaa whaaa! My destiny is controlled by outside forces. Whaa whaa!"

Because it sure sounds like that when I read it in my head.

My point was that a large portion of the costs are in the hands/in the locus of control of the students. The onus is on them (and their parents) to elect to make the smart choices and graduate debt free.

@Galliver: Universities typically charge much higher tuition to international students.




galliver

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Quote
Also what exactly is stopping Americans (or others) from attending Canadian universities?
Nothing, but it's no longer cheap when you pay the $20,000 upcharge for not being Canadian.

Where do you get that number? Not doubting, just questioning.

grantmeaname

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Quote
Also what exactly is stopping Americans (or others) from attending Canadian universities?
Nothing, but it's no longer cheap when you pay the $20,000 upcharge for not being Canadian.

Where do you get that number? Not doubting, just questioning.
I went to the University of Toronto's website, subtracted, and rounded.

grantmeaname

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Is that what you mean to say: "Whaaa whaaa! My destiny is controlled by outside forces. Whaa whaa!"

Because it sure sounds like that when I read it in my head.
I don't believe that I said anything even remotely like that, and my literal dozens of posts about people taking responsibility for education should make it extremely clear that that's not what I believe. But if some part of what I said leads you to believe that I'd love to hear what it is.

galliver

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Quote
Also what exactly is stopping Americans (or others) from attending Canadian universities?
Nothing, but it's no longer cheap when you pay the $20,000 upcharge for not being Canadian.

Where do you get that number? Not doubting, just questioning.
I went to the University of Toronto's website, subtracted, and rounded.

I was on the University of Toronto's site, too, but didn't see anything about different tuition for international.

grantmeaname

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I googled "toronto american tuition" and got here. The difference in minimum tuition for Canadians versus international students is $19,014. I wasn't being glib or anything - it may just be harder to find on a real financial aid page than the fast facts page.

Guses

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I don't believe that I said anything even remotely like that, and my literal dozens of posts about people taking responsibility for education should make it extremely clear that that's not what I believe. But if some part of what I said leads you to believe that I'd love to hear what it is.

Paraphrashing:

I said: Students need to take ownership of their decisions and make smart choice in order to graduate debt free.

You said(quoting another reply): What you are talking about those not apply to people outside of Canada (like me!).

I think that we can all agree that the importance of making smart choices is relevant wherever you may be living. This is what lead me to my initial reply.


grantmeaname

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You said(quoting another reply): What you are talking about those not apply to people outside of Canada (like me!).
No, I said "College in Canada is cheaper" is not an actionable tip to reduce your college expenses. If you're not already in Canada you can't make use of it to save on college, and if you are already in Canada you also can't make use of it to save on college.

galliver

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I googled "toronto american tuition" and got here. The difference in minimum tuition for Canadians versus international students is $19,014. I wasn't being glib or anything - it may just be harder to find on a real financial aid page than the fast facts page.

Ah, found it. Even on the actual fees page. Fair point, although at 26-27k it's still less than out of state in the US (or private). At least, sticker price. Also not clear how accessible fin aid (merit or need) is in Canada for international students...

grantmeaname

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at 26-27k it's still less than out of state in the US
It's actually almost exactly the same as OSU's out of state tuition, amusingly enough.

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I googled "toronto american tuition" and got here. The difference in minimum tuition for Canadians versus international students is $19,014. I wasn't being glib or anything - it may just be harder to find on a real financial aid page than the fast facts page.
FWIW, tution in Ontario is (I believe) somewhat higher than other provinces. If you pick another large Canadian school that attracts international/American students, McGill in this case, you get these numbers:
Quebec Residency: $4,000
Non-Quebec Canadian: $8,300
International: $18,750
you probably also pay a lot less in housing in Montreal than Toronto (but maybe more on strippers), but your point stands, the cost is situation and residency dependant.

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2 things:

1. Rural's description earlier about the school where he (she?) teaches sounds like my idea of what colleges are supposed to be. This may be contentious but I tend to think that when you go to college, aren't willing or able to work, and your parents don't support you, the bottom line is that you can't afford college. Some do it anyway. The student's at Rural's school either work their asses off or don't. Some work their asses off and, unfortunately, still can't "afford" to graduate. Would they be able to "afford" their loans if they'd taken them out instead -- in the same sense of the word "afford"? (By which I mean: whatever the reason for their circumstances, their circumstances don't seem to allow it.)

--Disclaimer: this comes from a person who worked through college, got no parental support, took out loans and went to an overpriced school because I didn't know any better at the time.

Sure I'm glad people who can't afford it can get the degree anyway and possibly increase their earning power and potential. The unfortunate thing that often happens, though, is that people go into debt essentially FOR LIFE and thus reduce their earning power as X% of their income is going to pay for loans + interest. (Those who pay their loans over 15, 20 years, or longer, that is -- not mustachians.) There was an article in Harper's recently talking about people who graduated with $50K in SL debt, and who now have over $100K because they couldn't afford their payments, penalties, and interest. And it keeps climbing exponentially. This is the nasty side of compound interest.

2. The comments about the Bachelor of Liberal Arts being a specialization in "nothing": do you mean to imply as many have that it is a "useless" degree? That is pigheaded. The school I went to has a self-designed curriculum where you can combine seemingly-disparate subjects and study what you're actually interested in, but which isn't always offered in the choice of majors. Therefore the emphasis is on Learning and not necessarily Employability. To me, that is a legitimate way to think about college even if it's different from YOUR reasons for going. This coming from a person whose BLA degree has not done much for them in terms of jobs.

But that's a separate issue re. how to pay for it. I am the only person in my immediate family to get an undergrad degree. It could have been in underwater basket weaving, I just knew I had to do it at whatever cost. Well, I'm still paying for it. Although I couldn't really "afford" it, it's now a personal decision whether it was worth it or not.

Daleth

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I googled "toronto american tuition" and got here. The difference in minimum tuition for Canadians versus international students is $19,014. I wasn't being glib or anything - it may just be harder to find on a real financial aid page than the fast facts page.

Ah, found it. Even on the actual fees page. Fair point, although at 26-27k it's still less than out of state in the US (or private). At least, sticker price. Also not clear how accessible fin aid (merit or need) is in Canada for international students...

Unless they changed the law since the last time I checked, US student loans can be used at universities all over the world.

I said "College in Canada is cheaper" is not an actionable tip to reduce your college expenses. If you're not already in Canada you can't make use of it to save on college...

Yes you can. Tuition is several grand a year cheaper, bachelor's degrees generally take three years instead of 4, and you can use US student loans to go there. Not to mention, as someone upthread said, Canadian universities don't force you to live in dorms and use university meal plans, so you can economize on living expenses too.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 09:28:19 AM by Daleth »

galliver

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2 things:

1. Rural's description earlier about the school where he (she?) teaches sounds like my idea of what colleges are supposed to be. This may be contentious but I tend to think that when you go to college, aren't willing or able to work, and your parents don't support you, the bottom line is that you can't afford college. Some do it anyway. The student's at Rural's school either work their asses off or don't. Some work their asses off and, unfortunately, still can't "afford" to graduate. Would they be able to "afford" their loans if they'd taken them out instead -- in the same sense of the word "afford"? (By which I mean: whatever the reason for their circumstances, their circumstances don't seem to allow it.)

--Disclaimer: this comes from a person who worked through college, got no parental support, took out loans and went to an overpriced school because I didn't know any better at the time.

Sure I'm glad people who can't afford it can get the degree anyway and possibly increase their earning power and potential. The unfortunate thing that often happens, though, is that people go into debt essentially FOR LIFE and thus reduce their earning power as X% of their income is going to pay for loans + interest. (Those who pay their loans over 15, 20 years, or longer, that is -- not mustachians.) There was an article in Harper's recently talking about people who graduated with $50K in SL debt, and who now have over $100K because they couldn't afford their payments, penalties, and interest. And it keeps climbing exponentially. This is the nasty side of compound interest.

2. The comments about the Bachelor of Liberal Arts being a specialization in "nothing": do you mean to imply as many have that it is a "useless" degree? That is pigheaded. The school I went to has a self-designed curriculum where you can combine seemingly-disparate subjects and study what you're actually interested in, but which isn't always offered in the choice of majors. Therefore the emphasis is on Learning and not necessarily Employability. To me, that is a legitimate way to think about college even if it's different from YOUR reasons for going. This coming from a person whose BLA degree has not done much for them in terms of jobs.

But that's a separate issue re. how to pay for it. I am the only person in my immediate family to get an undergrad degree. It could have been in underwater basket weaving, I just knew I had to do it at whatever cost. Well, I'm still paying for it. Although I couldn't really "afford" it, it's now a personal decision whether it was worth it or not.

So....I couldn't quite figure out which side you were on re: student loans and majors not focused on employability.

I think it's important to note that the students who most need to work their way through college are also most likely to be the ones who need to study the most. That's one thing that stuck out to me as a downside of the institution Rural works at, and I saw it in my friend circle as well: students who overwork (let's say more than 20 hr/week, which is the limit imposed on work-study positions and international students), tend to let slide sleep and studying, which affect their classroom performance--possibly to the point where they have to repeat courses or drop out. Student loans, in moderate amounts, can help make up that difference to help actually get those students through school, and earning instead of paying!

I'm torn on the idea of "education just because." On the one hand, I see education as valuable, on the other, we all need to become productive members of society eventually and there are only so many people we as a society can support analyzing literature for a living. I guess what it comes down to is that high schools and early college years need to focus much more on helping students answer the question "what do I want to do." Schools--integrate some kind of intro to professions presentations into the curriculum, maybe a separate course; encourage and help organize job shadowing and interacting with the job market, setting up jobs, internships.  Colleges--ask for an essay on life goals! If nothing else, it makes the student think about it. Somehow "future career plans" aren't really a topic of college essays.

galliver

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I transferred to my alma mater for the low tuition. I just checked, and it is $191 in-state and $395 out-of-state. It is in a very low cost of living area. I feel their rates are still very good, and housing costs are very low. Finding yourself an affordable school in the US is still do-able.

It's currently that? Where!?

Rural

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I transferred to my alma mater for the low tuition. I just checked, and it is $191 in-state and $395 out-of-state. It is in a very low cost of living area. I feel their rates are still very good, and housing costs are very low. Finding yourself an affordable school in the US is still do-able.

It's currently that? Where!?

That's probably per credit hour, still a very good deal.

galliver

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That sounds more likely, haha. 15 hr load is then 2865 tuition. Still quite good. 4-year school? If so, guessing Bachelor's as a top degree?

sheepstache

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No, I said "College in Canada is cheaper" is not an actionable tip to reduce your college expenses.

What are you talking about?  Those lazy little middleschoolers could be working on their residency applications right now

StubblyNortherner

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This is an interesting topic.
I went to school in Newfoundland, Canada and the tuition rate for a canadian resident in 2007 was $1450 for a 15 credit hour load.
I completed a bachelor of Engineering degree there for $14,500 with six paying coop terms as part of the program.

I believe the same degree for an international student would require approximaely $60,000 for an international student. (Still not bad comparatively)




minimalist

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What I did / how to reduce costs in California (and probably many other states):
1. California community college for two years. Current tuition: $1k/year. I believe everyone in my honors program got into Berkeley, UCLA, USC, etc.
2. University of California (UC) school for two years. Current tuition: $12.5k/year. If that is not affordable, tuition is $5.5k/year for a Cal State University.
3. Save money by buying/selling used books online (eBay, half, amazon, etc). Even if a professor said I must buy the current edition (they usually didn't), I still bought the older edition and did well.
4. Optional: live in the dorms for one year ($14.5k including food) and an apartment the second year ($7k excluding food).

If I didn't have much money, I could have lived at home and gone to a closer school, but looking back I still believe it was money well spent because I had an amazing time.

uppy

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2 things:

1. Rural's description earlier about the school where he (she?) teaches sounds like my idea of what colleges are supposed to be. This may be contentious but I tend to think that when you go to college, aren't willing or able to work, and your parents don't support you, the bottom line is that you can't afford college. Some do it anyway. The student's at Rural's school either work their asses off or don't. Some work their asses off and, unfortunately, still can't "afford" to graduate. Would they be able to "afford" their loans if they'd taken them out instead -- in the same sense of the word "afford"? (By which I mean: whatever the reason for their circumstances, their circumstances don't seem to allow it.)

--Disclaimer: this comes from a person who worked through college, got no parental support, took out loans and went to an overpriced school because I didn't know any better at the time.

Sure I'm glad people who can't afford it can get the degree anyway and possibly increase their earning power and potential. The unfortunate thing that often happens, though, is that people go into debt essentially FOR LIFE and thus reduce their earning power as X% of their income is going to pay for loans + interest. (Those who pay their loans over 15, 20 years, or longer, that is -- not mustachians.) There was an article in Harper's recently talking about people who graduated with $50K in SL debt, and who now have over $100K because they couldn't afford their payments, penalties, and interest. And it keeps climbing exponentially. This is the nasty side of compound interest.

2. The comments about the Bachelor of Liberal Arts being a specialization in "nothing": do you mean to imply as many have that it is a "useless" degree? That is pigheaded. The school I went to has a self-designed curriculum where you can combine seemingly-disparate subjects and study what you're actually interested in, but which isn't always offered in the choice of majors. Therefore the emphasis is on Learning and not necessarily Employability. To me, that is a legitimate way to think about college even if it's different from YOUR reasons for going. This coming from a person whose BLA degree has not done much for them in terms of jobs.

But that's a separate issue re. how to pay for it. I am the only person in my immediate family to get an undergrad degree. It could have been in underwater basket weaving, I just knew I had to do it at whatever cost. Well, I'm still paying for it. Although I couldn't really "afford" it, it's now a personal decision whether it was worth it or not.

So....I couldn't quite figure out which side you were on re: student loans and majors not focused on employability.

I think it's important to note that the students who most need to work their way through college are also most likely to be the ones who need to study the most. That's one thing that stuck out to me as a downside of the institution Rural works at, and I saw it in my friend circle as well: students who overwork (let's say more than 20 hr/week, which is the limit imposed on work-study positions and international students), tend to let slide sleep and studying, which affect their classroom performance--possibly to the point where they have to repeat courses or drop out. Student loans, in moderate amounts, can help make up that difference to help actually get those students through school, and earning instead of paying!

I'm torn on the idea of "education just because." On the one hand, I see education as valuable, on the other, we all need to become productive members of society eventually and there are only so many people we as a society can support analyzing literature for a living. I guess what it comes down to is that high schools and early college years need to focus much more on helping students answer the question "what do I want to do." Schools--integrate some kind of intro to professions presentations into the curriculum, maybe a separate course; encourage and help organize job shadowing and interacting with the job market, setting up jobs, internships.  Colleges--ask for an essay on life goals! If nothing else, it makes the student think about it. Somehow "future career plans" aren't really a topic of college essays.

I'm not really taking sides on the issue, galliver, just pointing out some things I think some people fail to consider. Why do you think "students who most need to work their way through college are also most likely to be the ones who need to study the most"? I understand that working too much will affect classroom performance in anyone, but I fail to see the connection between "needing to study more" and a lack of pre-existing college funds.

Neither am I advocating "education just because". I had many specific reasons for getting a degree, they just evidently weren't the same reasons as yours. Although I admit the majority of our society doesn't consider supporting the arts as a worthwhile investment, there are those of us who consider nontraditional jobs and their products very valuable to society. What I mean is I don't see why there should be any supposed limit on how many people a society can support "analyzing literature" when we don't talk about limits on how many lawyers, doctors, CEOs, or what-have-yous our society can or should support.

In my opinion there is too much implied emphasis on The Job and not enough emphasis on life goals in the question "what do you want to do" often posed to high school & college students. Similar to how every person you meet asks "what do you do" and expects to hear what your job is. I've said before that the existence of this website insofar as it supports those wanting ER indicates to me a huge dissatisfaction with the typical 9-5 "my-job-defines-me" way of life in the US and elsewhere. 

rocksinmyhead

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In my opinion there is too much implied emphasis on The Job and not enough emphasis on life goals in the question "what do you want to do" often posed to high school & college students. Similar to how every person you meet asks "what do you do" and expects to hear what your job is. I've said before that the existence of this website insofar as it supports those wanting ER indicates to me a huge dissatisfaction with the typical 9-5 "my-job-defines-me" way of life in the US and elsewhere.

I agree, but it makes getting to ER a lot easier if you have a job that is in demand/really needed by society at the time, i.e. pays well. if you start out in the hole (from student loans) AND not super employable based on your degree, you're still probably not going to get to do what you want (although maybe you did for four years while you were in college... woohoo, it's over) AND you're going to struggle to retire early so you can start doing what you want.

sorry if that made no sense, I'm struggling to articulate my opinion here :)

uppy

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In my opinion there is too much implied emphasis on The Job and not enough emphasis on life goals in the question "what do you want to do" often posed to high school & college students. Similar to how every person you meet asks "what do you do" and expects to hear what your job is. I've said before that the existence of this website insofar as it supports those wanting ER indicates to me a huge dissatisfaction with the typical 9-5 "my-job-defines-me" way of life in the US and elsewhere.

I agree, but it makes getting to ER a lot easier if you have a job that is in demand/really needed by society at the time, i.e. pays well. if you start out in the hole (from student loans) AND not super employable based on your degree, you're still probably not going to get to do what you want (although maybe you did for four years while you were in college... woohoo, it's over) AND you're going to struggle to retire early so you can start doing what you want.

sorry if that made no sense, I'm struggling to articulate my opinion here :)

No, you were very clear and I agree with you too. I just think it's unfortunate. When I say that, I'm not being a complainypants -- I am actually optimistic that someday society will figure out a better way for people to realize their potential. I think the cost might be admitting how flawed the current system is for those who don't easily fit the mold.

galliver

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I'm not really taking sides on the issue, galliver, just pointing out some things I think some people fail to consider. Why do you think "students who most need to work their way through college are also most likely to be the ones who need to study the most"? I understand that working too much will affect classroom performance in anyone, but I fail to see the connection between "needing to study more" and a lack of pre-existing college funds.

I would expect students from lower income families are more likely to have gone to underperforming schools before college, and may need to play catch-up in college classes. I'm not saying this is true 100% of the time (e.g. grant aid would significantly change this), just that I would expect a bias in that direction....

Although I admit the majority of our society doesn't consider supporting the arts as a worthwhile investment, there are those of us who consider nontraditional jobs and their products very valuable to society. What I mean is I don't see why there should be any supposed limit on how many people a society can support "analyzing literature" when we don't talk about limits on how many lawyers, doctors, CEOs, or what-have-yous our society can or should support.

Ok, first of all, there are limits on how many doctors&nurses, how many CEOs and how many farmers we need. There are only so many people getting sick, so many companies to run, and so much food we can healthily consume (or other products of biological origins--ethanol, TP, etc).  But most of these people produce more value than they themselves consume; that is why businesses make profits. Scientists of every stripe, even the "soft sciences," produce knowledge of our world and how it works--when and how our world was formed, how we interact with each other and the world, what we can utilize to become faster, better, stronger beings. Artists (including writers, actors, musicians, designers, etc) make our world beautiful (not unimportant!), and share with us stories and emotions we may not otherwise experience. So, what does analyzing literature produce? Why should I effectively pay someone (through taxes or tuition or whatever) to sit at their desk and read lots of books and decide what the authors were trying to say about humanity or how one influenced the other?

I think education is valuable while it conveys some degree of useful skills and to a lesser extent, knowledge. A student should leave college able to offer the world more productivity, of some nature, than they were before, whether it's in a STEM field or 'non-traditional'. Being able to analyze Chaucer over dinner with your husband's boss may have once been, but is no longer a valid reason for an education.

uppy

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I'm not really taking sides on the issue, galliver, just pointing out some things I think some people fail to consider. Why do you think "students who most need to work their way through college are also most likely to be the ones who need to study the most"? I understand that working too much will affect classroom performance in anyone, but I fail to see the connection between "needing to study more" and a lack of pre-existing college funds.

I would expect students from lower income families are more likely to have gone to underperforming schools before college, and may need to play catch-up in college classes. I'm not saying this is true 100% of the time (e.g. grant aid would significantly change this), just that I would expect a bias in that direction....

Although I admit the majority of our society doesn't consider supporting the arts as a worthwhile investment, there are those of us who consider nontraditional jobs and their products very valuable to society. What I mean is I don't see why there should be any supposed limit on how many people a society can support "analyzing literature" when we don't talk about limits on how many lawyers, doctors, CEOs, or what-have-yous our society can or should support.

Ok, first of all, there are limits on how many doctors&nurses, how many CEOs and how many farmers we need. There are only so many people getting sick, so many companies to run, and so much food we can healthily consume (or other products of biological origins--ethanol, TP, etc).  But most of these people produce more value than they themselves consume; that is why businesses make profits. Scientists of every stripe, even the "soft sciences," produce knowledge of our world and how it works--when and how our world was formed, how we interact with each other and the world, what we can utilize to become faster, better, stronger beings. Artists (including writers, actors, musicians, designers, etc) make our world beautiful (not unimportant!), and share with us stories and emotions we may not otherwise experience. So, what does analyzing literature produce? Why should I effectively pay someone (through taxes or tuition or whatever) to sit at their desk and read lots of books and decide what the authors were trying to say about humanity or how one influenced the other?

I think education is valuable while it conveys some degree of useful skills and to a lesser extent, knowledge. A student should leave college able to offer the world more productivity, of some nature, than they were before, whether it's in a STEM field or 'non-traditional'. Being able to analyze Chaucer over dinner with your husband's boss may have once been, but is no longer a valid reason for an education.

If it weren't for people analyzing literature you wouldn't know who Chaucer was or probably ever read him. Most artists, writers, actors, musicians, etc. etc. depend on people who study art for their own educations. People are less often "born" with inherent artistic genius (as is often the assumption even among artists). Like any profession they train, study their forbears, and read critical texts in their medium. If you think every artist could "double" in their work and fulfill the academic/master/teacher/critic role, you don't know very many artists.

You are entitled to your opinion of course but I just think it's ludicrous for you or anyone to say what is or isn't a worthwhile profession or education outside your own skin.

grantmeaname

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I feel like everyone has the right to discuss the parts of society they find valuable and not valuable. It's not like the discussion is so harmful that everyone must drop the topic for the fate of our nation. I think it's a pretty productive line of discussion.

uppy

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I feel like everyone has the right to discuss the parts of society they find valuable and not valuable. It's not like the discussion is so harmful that everyone must drop the topic for the fate of our nation. I think it's a pretty productive line of discussion.

Exactly my point.

You are entitled to your opinion of course...

 

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