Struggling with spouse's solo decision for family to go fully Organic

[HPstache]

I need some advice from the group, I'm finding myself in a pretty frustrating situation as a frugal person with FIRE aspirations.  Quick run down on the family... me 38, DW 34 and 3 kids.  I am the solo income generator, wife is a SAHM for the preschooler, other two in grade school.  About 14 months ago, my wife read a book called the China Study and decided that she wanted to drastically change her diet to something similar to veganism.  About a year of what I consider frustrating separations of diets (her toward strict veganism, myself and the kids continuing the "old way" of mostly healthy normal diets which included meat, eggs, all the things), she became very tired, wasn't seeing any weight loss gains or changes she expected from the new diet.  She decided she wanted to enter into an 6-month naturopath program to figure out what was going wrong which included blood work, full elimination diet, support group meetings, one on ones, etc of which we are about 3 month in.  Early on it was discovered that she was severely low in iron which was most likely the cause of her tiredness and other perceived issues, I'll put on my tin hat and say there might be a correlation.   However, naturopath is not a fan of the China study and has swayed her opinion that she should reconsider and begin consuming meat and most other items that she cut as she works back in from the elimination diet (phase of the program she is in right now), wife is on board and is eating meat again.  She is losing the weight, feeling better now, etc... so a win.

However, naturopath is a massive advocate for strictly organic diet only.  I assumed that this was something else that would be tested by during reintroduction of foods after the total elimination diet, but I have come to find out that DW has made the solo decision that the family will to convert to a fully organic diet.  I am honestly thrilled that we can at least eat as a family again, but the price tag to do what she wants, is frightening.  It will easily add another 50% (or more) to our food budget, and I am concerned that it will add even more hidden costs as the nearest grocery store that carries the stuff that she is looking for is 20 miles away and the amount of trips there are frequent.  I think part of the frustration to me is I know that there are legitimate counter points to what the actual difference is between organic foods vs. non-organic foods but I have no say in the matter because I am not the doctor advising, and she truly believes non-organic foods are unhealthy for the kids.  I feel she has correlated the successes she has had to the organic food, but in reality a lot of it may have to do with simply eating way less food and zero sugar and a lot of the (good) things that came along with this naturopath program.

So here I am, happy about some things but extremely frustrated at what will be a major family decision that I don't feel I have a say in.  As mentioned earlier, it weighs on me heavily from a frugal FIRE perspective as well, it almost causes pain seeing the price tags on the food.  It feels illogical and detrimental to what is a common FIRE goal for our future.  Someone talk to me.

[GuitarStv]

The entire field of naturopathy is one of charlatanry and quackery.  There is no valid science backing claims or suggestions, so it operates like a religious cult.  See if you can read some books about cult de-programming and try to get your wife back.

[Tasse]

You appear to already know that there is no good evidence that organic food is better for you than non-organic food.

That's not your issue. Your issue is of communication and joint decision-making with your spouse.

Is this the only case where you have felt you had no say in a "major family decision"? Do you have a division of "I am 100% in charge of x, she is 100% in charge of y" that would make it reasonable for her to assume this is her decision to make, or is she taking control of something that is usually handled together? Are there other situations where you have accepted a unilateral decision because it didn't have the financial implications this one does?

[Kris]

Agree that beyond the pseudoscience, this is largely a communication and relationship issue. That either one of you would feel that you are 100% in charge of a major family decision is alarming, at best.

I think that’s at the heart of where you need to start: at a place of working through how you make decisions as a couple.

[RetiredAt63]

Speaking as a gardener, the major benefit of organic is that it grows soil and promotes healthy soil organisms.  A minor benefit is that sometimes the plants are more disease and pest resistant.  Generally it doesn't much affect the nutrition of the crop. What does affect it is growing conditions (and we can't control how wet or sunny the summer was) and minerals in the soil.  Conventional farming is mining minerals, which is OK in the short term and a major issue in the long term.  But I doubt that is what your wife is concerned about.  If she is, good for her, most people are not.

Looking at us - pesticides.  If you could go organic on the dirty dozen it would probably have some benefit.  For the rest, some but not a lot.   Areas to think about - meat that has fewer antibiotics in it, milk that comes from cows that were not treated with bovine growth hormone (by the way, that is a US thing, all milk in Canada, and I think Europe is free of BGH - this is why most American milk is so inexpensive).  Often that just means reading labels, at my local grocery store I can choose meat less treated, eggs from hens who have more freedom of movement.

If there is a big price difference then she needs to change how she does shopping and food storage, get the organic produce at the farmer's market and process it (freeze, can, whatever), get a quarter of beef and freeze it, start a big vegetable garden, start growing fruit, find pick-your-own places, etc. 

So basically she needs to put her time and effort into accessing food she wants instead of just throwing money at it.  I did it, others do it, we have a whole gardening thread on the forums.  It can be a fun and rewarding activity.

The kids should learn where food comes from anyway, beyond "the grocery store".  My DD saw us growing vegetables and fruit (organically), we made maple syrup for a few years (and then she understood why it is so expensive!), etc.

I'm fine if you want to show her this post.

[wageslave23]

Can you tell her that you disagree with the added expense? And that as long as she is willing to work at some point to make up for the added expenses then it's fine.

[HPstache]

To answer as best as I can as to how she got to make this solo decision for the the family, it normally doesn't happen like that.. I would consider us to have good communication and make joint decisions.  But this time it just kind of happened naturally because of the circumstances.  She is emerging from a program that convinced her to do the thing, she believes the thing is the reason for success, so she wants to continue and I can't tell her how to eat.  But because food / eating is something that we do as a family, it now needs to accommodate to her personal choice.  I suppose we could continue to have separate meals, but now she wants the same perceived health for the kids and that is a difficult one to argue.

[lhamo]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

[the_hobbitish]

I agree that it's best to approach this from a standpoint of understanding and bringing good communication into the picture. It is very hard to convince someone to disbelieve what they want to hear, especially when it has a "doctors" backing.

I'd focus on conversations about how to achieve both your goals (hers organic and yours FIRE) and whether there's room to compromise. You may not be able to get her to step back from the organic craze, but expressing that you understand that she wants to make everyone healthy and focusing on cost effective ways to do that may help ease any tensions and open the option to compromise.

[Villanelle]

Who does the majority of the shopping?

Can you discuss compromises with her, like focusing on organic only for certain items which seem to benefit more from organic methods--like strawberries and spinach, and sticking with regular or those than don't like avocados?

Alternatively, can you point out that this is simply not sustainable for the family budget and she's making decisions that keep YOU at work longer, which isn't fair to you? If she won't compromise on 100% organic, then can she come up with savings from somewhere else--somewhere you agree on--to cover at least 75% of the increase?

[Metalcat]

I agree with everyone else, this is a relational/communication issue.

Why do you think she feels she has the right to make unilateral family decisions?

Is she amenable at all to talking about the cost and strategies to lower that cost?

[sonofsven]

Speaking as a gardener, the major benefit of organic is that it grows soil and promotes healthy soil organisms.  A minor benefit is that sometimes the plants are more disease and pest resistant.  Generally it doesn't much affect the nutrition of the crop. What does affect it is growing conditions (and we can't control how wet or sunny the summer was) and minerals in the soil.  Conventional farming is mining minerals, which is OK in the short term and a major issue in the long term.  But I doubt that is what your wife is concerned about.  If she is, good for her, most people are not.

Looking at us - pesticides.  If you could go organic on the dirty dozen it would probably have some benefit.  For the rest, some but not a lot.   Areas to think about - meat that has fewer antibiotics in it, milk that comes from cows that were not treated with bovine growth hormone (by the way, that is a US thing, all milk in Canada, and I think Europe is free of BGH - this is why most American milk is so inexpensive).  Often that just means reading labels, at my local grocery store I can choose meat less treated, eggs from hens who have more freedom of movement.

If there is a big price difference then she needs to change how she does shopping and food storage, get the organic produce at the farmer's market and process it (freeze, can, whatever), get a quarter of beef and freeze it, start a big vegetable garden, start growing fruit, find pick-your-own places, etc. 

So basically she needs to put her time and effort into accessing food she wants instead of just throwing money at it.  I did it, others do it, we have a whole gardening thread on the forums.  It can be a fun and rewarding activity.

The kids should learn where food comes from anyway, beyond "the grocery store".  My DD saw us growing vegetables and fruit (organically), we made maple syrup for a few years (and then she understood why it is so expensive!), etc.

I'm fine if you want to show her this post.

I like this advice, it is similar to how I approach organic/non organic.
I do eat quite a bit of organic produce because the small, local farms I buy from grow organic. But I also try to be frugal so I'm not completely strict about it. And I supply a lot of my diet with fish and game and garden vegetables.

Is there an organic farm near you and that offers a CSA program?
How about raising chickens for eggs?

I would encourage you to be accepting of her choices, with the hope that further education and experience (by both of you!) can lead to, maybe, a slightly more moderate take, or at least a willingness to do more to lessen the strain on your food budget.

Do you do an actual food budget and stick to it? Maybe you should, one where you make food choices together and stay under a number. That will lay out the reality of the $ numbers.

[HPstache]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

[RetiredAt63]

I gave food advice because I suck at relationship advice.

I'm reading This is how your marriage ends (Matthew Fray), as in I literally put the book down to cruise the forums.  A lot of what he talks about is one person making decisions and just not thinking about the effects on the other person.  As he acknowledges, way too often it is the husband, but it can be either spouse. Another lot of things he talks about is ignoring what the spouse is saying by reframing it. 

Seriously this is basically a communication issue (and by that I mean both sides need to listen instead of reframing).

So listen to all the good advice from people who do relationships well.   

[HPstache]

Who does the majority of the shopping?

Can you discuss compromises with her, like focusing on organic only for certain items which seem to benefit more from organic methods--like strawberries and spinach, and sticking with regular or those than don't like avocados?

Alternatively, can you point out that this is simply not sustainable for the family budget and she's making decisions that keep YOU at work longer, which isn't fair to you? If she won't compromise on 100% organic, then can she come up with savings from somewhere else--somewhere you agree on--to cover at least 75% of the increase?

I would say we were are about 50/50 on grocery shopping, if not more like 75% me in the past... it's been really weird over the last year for the reasons described.  Now that she is embracing this new diet, she is basically going while I'm at work so that we get the right stuff.  I do not think there is room to compromise on the food part at this time, but I think maybe in the future she might soften her stance.  As described by another user above, she has done a few of the fad diets like keto, low carb, vegan-ish, but I think this is one that she strongly believes in because of the results.  Suggesting that she work to cover the difference was my strongest talking point and I feel like we might be able to find a compromise there.

[mistymoney]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

[HPstache]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

Maybe I said it in weird way, but what I mean is since she currently does not bring in any income, it would make me feel better about the situation if she would start to contribute financially to cover the change in lifestyle she wants.

[Cranky]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

Maybe I said it in weird way, but what I mean is since she currently does not bring in any income, it would make me feel better about the situation if she would start to contribute financially to cover the change in lifestyle she wants.

Suggesting that she is not contributing financially is not a winning strategy, to say the least.

[Villanelle]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

Maybe I said it in weird way, but what I mean is since she currently does not bring in any income, it would make me feel better about the situation if she would start to contribute financially to cover the change in lifestyle she wants.

I agree with Cranky about the words you said.  That's not going to go well.  But I think pointing out that her decisions means you work longer is entirely fair.  It's not that she doesn't have financial skin in the game; it's that she's unilaterally making decisions about your employment future.  That's not fair, or at least it wouldn't feel fair or okay in my relationship.  No more so that DH (or me) going out and buying a summer home without talking to me. First, that's just not okay no matter what else.  But I think in the conversation, it's fair to point out that OP hwas to work longer for a decision he doesn't agree with and wasn't even consulted about.  IDK how they divide their expenses, but if OP and his wife have personal money or "allowances" like some couples do, I think it's reasonable to suggest some of the difference come from that.  Or budget cuts to her her personal items, whatever those may be.  This is her decision--she made it very clear that it was her decision alone.  So it seems to me she should bear much of the burden for it.  Right now, OP is bearing most of the burden for it.  Wife's life hasn't change at all, but DH will work longer.  Since she made this decision alone, she should contribute heavily to finding it.   

To be clear, in the conversation about it, I wouldn't put it quite like that, but it seems pretty reasonable.  OP's wife is spending his time on something he wasn't even consulted about. 

[GilesMM]

Who does the majority of the shopping?

Can you discuss compromises with her, like focusing on organic only for certain items which seem to benefit more from organic methods--like strawberries and spinach, and sticking with regular or those than don't like avocados?

Alternatively, can you point out that this is simply not sustainable for the family budget and she's making decisions that keep YOU at work longer, which isn't fair to you? If she won't compromise on 100% organic, then can she come up with savings from somewhere else--somewhere you agree on--to cover at least 75% of the increase?

I would say we were are about 50/50 on grocery shopping, if not more like 75% me in the past... it's been really weird over the last year for the reasons described.  Now that she is embracing this new diet, she is basically going while I'm at work so that we get the right stuff.  I do not think there is room to compromise on the food part at this time, but I think maybe in the future she might soften her stance.  As described by another user above, she has done a few of the fad diets like keto, low carb, vegan-ish, but I think this is one that she strongly believes in because of the results.  Suggesting that she work to cover the difference was my strongest talking point and I feel like we might be able to find a compromise there.

If she is firm on the organic food for now, then just buckle down on the budget somewhere else as best you can and move on.  There are worse things in life than eating organic food that someone else is willing to shop for, cart home and prepare for the family.

[Kris]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

Maybe I said it in weird way, but what I mean is since she currently does not bring in any income, it would make me feel better about the situation if she would start to contribute financially to cover the change in lifestyle she wants.

Okay, no no no no no. And I am more on your side in terms of thinking that her food/diet choices are not based in any actual scientific reality.

But Jesus, if the issue is that you think she is not contributing financially to the household, that is an *entirely* separate matter. But if you do think she is contributing equally by being a SAHM, for the love of god, do not go down this path.

[Dicey]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

Maybe I said it in weird way, but what I mean is since she currently does not bring in any income, it would make me feel better about the situation if she would start to contribute financially to cover the change in lifestyle she wants.

Suggesting that she is not contributing financially is not a winning strategy, to say the least.

Yeah, divorce is expensive.

[Freedomin5]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

Maybe I said it in weird way, but what I mean is since she currently does not bring in any income, it would make me feel better about the situation if she would start to contribute financially to cover the change in lifestyle she wants.

I agree with Cranky about the words you said.  That's not going to go well.  But I think pointing out that her decisions means you work longer is entirely fair.  It's not that she doesn't have financial skin in the game; it's that she's unilaterally making decisions about your employment future.  That's not fair, or at least it wouldn't feel fair or okay in my relationship.  No more so that DH (or me) going out and buying a summer home without talking to me. First, that's just not okay no matter what else.  But I think in the conversation, it's fair to point out that OP hwas to work longer for a decision he doesn't agree with and wasn't even consulted about.  IDK how they divide their expenses, but if OP and his wife have personal money or "allowances" like some couples do, I think it's reasonable to suggest some of the difference come from that.  Or budget cuts to her her personal items, whatever those may be.  This is her decision--she made it very clear that it was her decision alone.  So it seems to me she should bear much of the burden for it.  Right now, OP is bearing most of the burden for it.  Wife's life hasn't change at all, but DH will work longer.  Since she made this decision alone, she should contribute heavily to finding it.   

To be clear, in the conversation about it, I wouldn't put it quite like that, but it seems pretty reasonable.  OP's wife is spending his time on something he wasn't even consulted about.

This is a fair point. We used a similar strategy when DH took a year-long sabbatical. My income would cover all the basics and fund our lifestyle, but if he wanted anything extra or wanted to spend an extra $500 on groceries, he needed to find a part-time job to fund that portion, since we use zero-sum budgeting and there were no extra dollars left to allocate to a 50% increase in grocery costs.

[RetiredAt63]

Re budget, this is why a few of us discussed ways to make the diet work without huge costs.  If she isn't putting extra money in to cover this, she needs to put time and effort in to make it as cost-effective as possible.  That has always been the financial trade-off for a SAHP - it saves child care costs, it also makes it easier to do home cooking instead of takeout, and so on.

But seriously - she is feeling better, how is the rest of the family doing?  Because having good nutrition is important.  Especially for children, this affects them so much.  People spend a much smaller % of their income than they did 50 years ago, or 80 years ago.  Cheap food, cheap clothing, environment going to hell.

[ixtap]

I would phrase it as a budgeting issue: the money needs to come from somewhere, but with three kids and home prepared food, even a part time job might initially increase family costs and stress, rather than reducing them. Cutting costs elsewhere is likely a better place to start.

Where are these farmers' markets where people are getting cheaper food? The farm stands around me are the same price as the grocery store and the weekly markets are more.

[MayDay]

I didn't read all the responses, I got about halfway through.

I identify a lot with both of your "sides" for different reasons. 

My main thought is to try to meet in the middle - yes to all organic, but as a SAH parent she has to help mitigate the cost by reducing grocery trips, making a lot from scratch/managing bulk buying, and altering the menu to keep cost in mind.

During my organic phase, I had a huge garden, worked a 4 hours a week for an organic farm (8$ an hour+ all the leftover free produce I wanted), scavenged my local area for bulk buying options, and made everything from scratch - no prepared foods. I did stuff like finding a local organic apple orchard and volunteering to pick apples for the food bank, and then I got to take home two bags of apples. I canned stuff. I bought 50 lb bags of organic grains. You get the idea.

[Sanitary Stache]

Edited to add that unilateral decisions in a relationship are not healthy. I should have started with that.

Buying non conventionally grown food at a reasonable price requires lots of work.

I also think the language about the Stay At Home Parent not having “financial skin in the game” is white supremacist patriarchy bullshit and we all might want to explore the societal conditioning that placed that concept into our brain. Caretaking work is much harder than paid knowledge work. It is the patriarchy and slavery that has exploited women and people of color to take on the caretaking work for free and the it is the patriarchy that pretends only cash can be used to measure economic value.

Ok, fuck the patriarchy and white supremacy. Back to eating better.

I think what your wife is doing is great. I also agree with GilesMMM that the naturopath community is steeped in cultish practices, that doesn’t prevent me from going to a naturopath with my wife and three kids. (I just have to work harder to make my own health decisions also and see more scientific health professionals.)

Conventional food is a moral failing of our society. Especially meat, wheat, corn, soy, cotton seed, palm oil… this list is going to be long so I’ll stop. Primarily conventional food as societal and economic negative effects. Its positive effects might be abundant cheap calories, but I think it’s debatable about whether this has a net positive effect. I believe conventional foods are less healthy than non conventional farming (note that the “organic” label doesn’t make much of a difference here, it is the farming method that matters not the label).

But this is a belief. And it’s a belief because there is so much money in food, conventional farming and now organic farming, that any research into the matter is biased towards the money. So there isn’t much data saying conventional farming practices can harm a persons health by eating the conventionally grown food. You’ll definitely be harmed if you go into or live near the fields where the food is grown.

RBGH which my milk calls rbst, is one example. A milk carton can say it doesn’t have rbgh but if it says that, then it has to say the FDA thinks rgbh is fine. Wheat is a whole tooic also. Roundup can please fuck off. Etc. I’m

Then how to do the work to acquire the actually good food is the question. And it is a great one.

I hope OP, that your family finds that good food and eats it all. $1,000 per month is a shit load of money to not be getting the good stuff.

I’m out of time to go into what I think is the good stuff, but it might boil down to knowing where the food came from and how it was processed into the product you buy. With the least processing the better.

[ender]

FWIW, I've been in a similar situation to your wife - wanting to and then eating a meaningfully differently (a very strict elimination diet) because of I feel so much better while eating that way, while my family does not eat it.

The issue I've dealt with which is at play here too is when my partner doesn't seem to care about the benefits I feel eating a specific way enough to discuss or be open to even having a conversation about how we might incorporate that into our family.

In all of your messages here, I get the same vibe. I get a, "well I know better" vibe which if your wife picks up at all -- and she clearly will feel this -- is going to be a nonstarter for any amount of empathetic conversation. You are focusing entirely on the impact on you and not on her. She's not going to react well because she's a human and you're basically ignoring some major benefits she has experienced in her life.

Having been in a similar situation as your wife, unless you start with an appreciation/empathy and acknowledgement for the benefits she's realizing, you're going to just cause animosity. She's going to get defense and feel like you mostly don't care about how her diet impacts her, just the money aspect. Which from reading the thread certainly feels like the case.

Most of this thread feels like misguided attempts for you to teach your wife how to better do something you don't actually want her to do because of the financial cost. That's certainly one strategy to approach.

[Villanelle]

FWIW, I've been in a similar situation to your wife - wanting to and then eating a meaningfully differently (a very strict elimination diet) because of I feel so much better while eating that way, while my family does not eat it.

The issue I've dealt with which is at play here too is when my partner doesn't seem to care about the benefits I feel eating a specific way enough to discuss or be open to even having a conversation about how we might incorporate that into our family.

In all of your messages here, I get the same vibe. I get a, "well I know better" vibe which if your wife picks up at all -- and she clearly will feel this -- is going to be a nonstarter for any amount of empathetic conversation. You are focusing entirely on the impact on you and not on her. She's not going to react well because she's a human and you're basically ignoring some major benefits she has experienced in her life.

Having been in a similar situation as your wife, unless you start with an appreciation/empathy and acknowledgement for the benefits she's realizing, you're going to just cause animosity. She's going to get defense and feel like you mostly don't care about how her diet impacts her, just the money aspect. Which from reading the thread certainly feels like the case.

Most of this thread feels like misguided attempts for you to teach your wife how to better do something you don't actually want her to do because of the financial cost. That's certainly one strategy to approach.

If the wife wanted to change her diet, that's one thing.  But she wants to change everyone's. OP doesn't seem to be feeling any benefits from the change in diet, but it has been thrust upon him. 

If this post was about the wife eating organic because she feels health improvements and OP objecting to that cost, I think the responses would have been different. 

That said, I do think that you make a good point about him needing to acknowledge her reasons for wanting this for herself as being perfectly valid and something he supports.  But that doesn't mean that when the kids have an apple for a snack, it needs to be organic. 

[ender]

If the wife wanted to change her diet, that's one thing.  But she wants to change everyone's. OP doesn't seem to be feeling any benefits from the change in diet, but it has been thrust upon him. 

If this post was about the wife eating organic because she feels health improvements and OP objecting to that cost, I think the responses would have been different. 

That said, I do think that you make a good point about him needing to acknowledge her reasons for wanting this for herself as being perfectly valid and something he supports.  But that doesn't mean that when the kids have an apple for a snack, it needs to be organic.

Are we reading the same thread? The entire thread is about what I bolded in your response.

OP only seems upset about the decision process because of the cost, both initially and in their responses. I suspect if the OP's partner was able to do this for "free" or "cheaper"  they wouldn't have cared at all about this decision making process being the way it was. The only reason it seems to matter is because of the cost.

I'd be curious too who historically has done most of the meal planning, food prep, and cooking in OP's family. The thread certainly reads like, "my wife, who has done the majority of meal prep/cooking for our family since being a SAHP, changed what types of food she was buying and preparing. It costs more now which I don't like - she needs to start working to pay for this"  which is certainly one approach to take.

OP's mindset here comes across really confrontational/combative/scorched earth. That will not lead to good conflict management.

[RetiredAt63]

FWIW, I've been in a similar situation to your wife - wanting to and then eating a meaningfully differently (a very strict elimination diet) because of I feel so much better while eating that way, while my family does not eat it.

The issue I've dealt with which is at play here too is when my partner doesn't seem to care about the benefits I feel eating a specific way enough to discuss or be open to even having a conversation about how we might incorporate that into our family.

In all of your messages here, I get the same vibe. I get a, "well I know better" vibe which if your wife picks up at all -- and she clearly will feel this -- is going to be a nonstarter for any amount of empathetic conversation. You are focusing entirely on the impact on you and not on her. She's not going to react well because she's a human and you're basically ignoring some major benefits she has experienced in her life.

Having been in a similar situation as your wife, unless you start with an appreciation/empathy and acknowledgement for the benefits she's realizing, you're going to just cause animosity. She's going to get defense and feel like you mostly don't care about how her diet impacts her, just the money aspect. Which from reading the thread certainly feels like the case.

Most of this thread feels like misguided attempts for you to teach your wife how to better do something you don't actually want her to do because of the financial cost. That's certainly one strategy to approach.

If the wife wanted to change her diet, that's one thing.  But she wants to change everyone's. OP doesn't seem to be feeling any benefits from the change in diet, but it has been thrust upon him. 

If this post was about the wife eating organic because she feels health improvements and OP objecting to that cost, I think the responses would have been different. 

That said, I do think that you make a good point about him needing to acknowledge her reasons for wanting this for herself as being perfectly valid and something he supports.  But that doesn't mean that when the kids have an apple for a snack, it needs to be organic.

Well apples are a bad example, since they are on the dirty dozen list so organic (or local orchard where she knows what they spray) would actually be better.

Farmers markets are not usually cheaper but the produce should be local and you can ask how they grow stuff.  Pesticides?  Soil remineralization? 

Backyard dwarf fruit trees?  Veggie garden?


Re what ender said, I strongly recommend This is how your marriage ends by Matt Fray.  Because it may not be how OP is thinking but I am also getting the thinking wife is silly vibes.

[Villanelle]

If the wife wanted to change her diet, that's one thing.  But she wants to change everyone's. OP doesn't seem to be feeling any benefits from the change in diet, but it has been thrust upon him. 

If this post was about the wife eating organic because she feels health improvements and OP objecting to that cost, I think the responses would have been different. 

That said, I do think that you make a good point about him needing to acknowledge her reasons for wanting this for herself as being perfectly valid and something he supports.  But that doesn't mean that when the kids have an apple for a snack, it needs to be organic.

Are we reading the same thread? The entire thread is about what I bolded in your response.

OP only seems upset about the decision process because of the cost, both initially and in their responses. I suspect if the OP's partner was able to do this for "free" or "cheaper"  they wouldn't have cared at all about this decision making process being the way it was. The only reason it seems to matter is because of the cost.

I'd be curious too who historically has done most of the meal planning, food prep, and cooking in OP's family. The thread certainly reads like, "my wife, who has done the majority of meal prep/cooking for our family since being a SAHP, changed what types of food she was buying and preparing. It costs more now which I don't like - she needs to start working to pay for this"  which is certainly one approach to take.

OP's mindset here comes across really confrontational/combative/scorched earth. That will not lead to good conflict management.

Of course it the wife was able to do it for free OP wouldn't care because it wouldn't make any difference to him what kind of apple (okay, avocado) he eats.  Of course the cost matters.  If I went out and bought a fancy summer home without telling DH, but it as actually free, I'm confident he'd feel okay with him because there would be basically no impact on his life.  If I spent $1m on that house, then the expense and the unilateral decisions making would be... and issue.  Even if I told him that having a summer house reduced my anxiety and allowed me to decrease my anxiety meds (hypothetical)  and was good for my health.  In a partnership, one doesn't get to just make decisions for everyone else. 

And if this were just about her and her own health and well-being, then the cost increases would be minimized.  I'd probably tell the OP to suck it up, or propose meatless Mondays to offset the modest cost increase.  There's a way for the wife to see the benefits she feels from organic foods, with less expense.  She's not willing to go that route.  So OP's not trying to make her give up organic foods, as far as I can tell.  He's trying to find a way for her to get that benefit she feels, without as much expense.  Cutting organic for the rest of the family is one way to do that.  Going organic only for targets foods is another. 

If OP isn't okay with either of those, then I'd say he's the problem.  If he is, then it seems to me like he's trying to compromise and find a solution and she's not. 

Maybe I misread that.  I see that he generally thinks organic is silly, but I don't see that he's not willing to be okay with spendig a single extra dollar of family money on it.   

[Just_Me]

If the wife wanted to change her diet, that's one thing.  But she wants to change everyone's. OP doesn't seem to be feeling any benefits from the change in diet, but it has been thrust upon him. 

If this post was about the wife eating organic because she feels health improvements and OP objecting to that cost, I think the responses would have been different. 

That said, I do think that you make a good point about him needing to acknowledge her reasons for wanting this for herself as being perfectly valid and something he supports.  But that doesn't mean that when the kids have an apple for a snack, it needs to be organic.

Are we reading the same thread? The entire thread is about what I bolded in your response.

OP only seems upset about the decision process because of the cost, both initially and in their responses. I suspect if the OP's partner was able to do this for "free" or "cheaper"  they wouldn't have cared at all about this decision making process being the way it was. The only reason it seems to matter is because of the cost.

I'd be curious too who historically has done most of the meal planning, food prep, and cooking in OP's family. The thread certainly reads like, "my wife, who has done the majority of meal prep/cooking for our family since being a SAHP, changed what types of food she was buying and preparing. It costs more now which I don't like - she needs to start working to pay for this"  which is certainly one approach to take.

OP's mindset here comes across really confrontational/combative/scorched earth. That will not lead to good conflict management.

Wait, are we reducing this down to "your attempts to eat healthier and feel better are going to force me to work longer because I'd rather stop working sooner than potentially work longer to improve my family's health?"

Oh wait. That's exactly what's happening.

Lots of open minded collaboration and planning need to happen here.

[Louise]

It seems like $1K a month is doable for groceries, even with organics. Are you near a Costco? Can you order things online? What sort of meals are you eating? Can't you both can get what you want with a little compromise?

[lhamo]

Agree with Costco if you are near one -- they have quite a good variety of organics.

I have never ordered from this place but they are also supposed to have decent prices:

https://www.azurestandard.com/

[Metta]

One thing to consider is that plant-based, whole food diets are generally cheaper than omnivorous diets bought in the same stores. Depending, of course, on where you live. Alaskan eaters may find fish cheaper than beans, grains, vegetables, and rice. A whole food, plant-based diet is basically the much derided "Oh so you want me to eat rice and beans? Are we that poor?" diet. So if your family has recently switched to buying cheese and meat, that's a financial change as well (most likely adding cost, depending on where you live). You can't know until you do your grocery budget and examine it closely.

Our system is that we have a budget meeting every week. In general, we eat very well and we don't mind the cost. We are more likely to reduce costs in other areas. But if the grocery budget is moving up, we watch it closely each week. If it continues to move up, we prepare a grocery book to track each item we are buying and exactly the store we bought it from. Then we can ask good questions of the book. "Is it worth it to buy this berry vs this cheaper berry?" If the answer is yes, we move down to the next item.

This is a pain in the tush, but it works. Within a month or two we have a better sense of what matters to each of us and what doesn't. And which stores are cheaper on which items. "Oh, I thought you definitely wanted this thing vs. that thing because when your mother prepared it for us you wrinkled your nose when it was offered. I didn't realize that you just had a stomach ache that day. Great! Let's do the cheaper option."

What really matters is zeroing in on what matters to each person at a micro level. You can buy organic blackberries for $9.50 a pound vs organic carrots for $1.50 a pound. Will the organic blackberries bring you that much more pleasure than the carrots? That's the question. We buy frozen blueberries because my husband's answer to that question is a resounding Yes. Damn the expense. Bring on the blueberries. But there are many things we don't buy because the expense doesn't justify the cost.

All of this requires open-hearted conversation and cold-hearted tracking. You need to have both to make these things work. In other words, it's all about the communication, as everyone else has said.

[Tasse]

Wait, are we reducing this down to "your attempts to eat healthier and feel better are going to force me to work longer because I'd rather stop working sooner than potentially work longer to improve my family's health?"

Oh wait. That's exactly what's happening.

Well yeah, except you're skipping the part where one person's belief about what is healthier is not shared by the other person. I agree with the comments saying it's important to validate her experience of this diet being better for her, but OP's lack of belief in the organics making the difference is also reasonable. They need to figure out how to navigate those divergent beliefs.

[AMandM]

OP, you started out with

I need some advice from the group, I'm finding myself in a pretty frustrating situation as a frugal person with FIRE aspirations.

Are the FIRE aspirations yours alone, or are they a shared goal? I ask because I understand your frustration at your wife unilaterally making a decision with a big impact on you, and I wonder whether you wanting to FIRE feels the same way to her.

[Villanelle]

If the wife wanted to change her diet, that's one thing.  But she wants to change everyone's. OP doesn't seem to be feeling any benefits from the change in diet, but it has been thrust upon him. 

If this post was about the wife eating organic because she feels health improvements and OP objecting to that cost, I think the responses would have been different. 

That said, I do think that you make a good point about him needing to acknowledge her reasons for wanting this for herself as being perfectly valid and something he supports.  But that doesn't mean that when the kids have an apple for a snack, it needs to be organic.

Are we reading the same thread? The entire thread is about what I bolded in your response.

OP only seems upset about the decision process because of the cost, both initially and in their responses. I suspect if the OP's partner was able to do this for "free" or "cheaper"  they wouldn't have cared at all about this decision making process being the way it was. The only reason it seems to matter is because of the cost.

I'd be curious too who historically has done most of the meal planning, food prep, and cooking in OP's family. The thread certainly reads like, "my wife, who has done the majority of meal prep/cooking for our family since being a SAHP, changed what types of food she was buying and preparing. It costs more now which I don't like - she needs to start working to pay for this"  which is certainly one approach to take.

OP's mindset here comes across really confrontational/combative/scorched earth. That will not lead to good conflict management.

Wait, are we reducing this down to "your attempts to eat healthier and feel better are going to force me to work longer because I'd rather stop working sooner than potentially work longer to improve my family's health?"

Oh wait. That's exactly what's happening.

Lots of open minded collaboration and planning need to happen here.

You may be reducing it to that, but I'm not. Again, she's decided that everyone, including OP, is a going to to eat organic.  He doesn't see any benefit to himself in eating organic, but she wants to control that.  And make a firm decision for their kids, too, without discussion, compromise, or input.  Again, I've suggested OP offer that maybe they could target specific food for going organic, and others for not as one compromise.

OP is an adult.  His wife is supposed to get full agency over how she eats, but he gets none, as well as no say in how his kids eat?  Maybe that's okay in some people's relationships, but it wouldn't be in mine.  If OP's wife decided to go vegan because it makes her feel better and healthier, and then also dictated that her spouse and kids couldn't eat any meat either, would that be okay? 

[HPstache]

OP, you started out with

I need some advice from the group, I'm finding myself in a pretty frustrating situation as a frugal person with FIRE aspirations.

Are the FIRE aspirations yours alone, or are they a shared goal? I ask because I understand your frustration at your wife unilaterally making a decision with a big impact on you, and I wonder whether you wanting to FIRE feels the same way to her.

Yes, FIRE is a common goal for us... it is a dream of ours.

[HPstache]

Wait, are we reducing this down to "your attempts to eat healthier and feel better are going to force me to work longer because I'd rather stop working sooner than potentially work longer to improve my family's health?"

Oh wait. That's exactly what's happening.

Well yeah, except you're skipping the part where one person's belief about what is healthier is not shared by the other person. I agree with the comments saying it's important to validate her experience of this diet being better for her, but OP's lack of belief in the organics making the difference is also reasonable. They need to figure out how to navigate those divergent beliefs.

Thank you for this.  I think this a misunderstanding of the thread.  I have zero issue with eating healthier, the issue is that I disagree that an organic avocado is more healthy than a non organic avocado... and we literally had this argument. 

[HPstache]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

Maybe I said it in weird way, but what I mean is since she currently does not bring in any income, it would make me feel better about the situation if she would start to contribute financially to cover the change in lifestyle she wants.

Suggesting that she is not contributing financially is not a winning strategy, to say the least.

I guess the reason why I feel it is somewhat OK is because this is how we have dealt with financial disagreements in the past.  If one person disagrees with a major purchase outside of the budget, they typically have to figure out a way to pay for it with allocated fun money... we also have agreed in the past to the ability to find side gig money to support things we are passionate about.  So it may not be as much of relationship suicide as you are thinking in your mind.

I can't image we are the only couples that have had financial disagreements about spending money on something and the solution has been, "well if you really want it, find a way to pay for it".

[curious_george]

Tricky waters.

Agree that this is more an issue of the underlying communication/negotiation of shared values.

First off, how much of a financial hit is this going to be in a worst case situation (driving 30 minutes to Whole Foods 3x/week and paying ridiculous prices for stuff that can potentially be sourced elsewhere)?  And what percentage of that is it of your overall household income/budget?  Are we talking going from $500/month in grocery spending up to $750/month?  Or $2000 up to $3000?  And is that on a 50k/year income or $500k?  Yes, in the grand scheme of things a dollar is a dollar and it might be frustrating to "waste" so many of yours on something you personally don't see value in, but it may be cheaper than marriage counseling and surely will be cheaper than a divorce.

Second, how hard would it be for her to look into alternative sourcing options.  If this is important to her, she should be willing/able to look at ways to bring the cost down.  That includes growing things herself (if you have space in  your yard to do so), looking into local farms/CSA/co-ops, etc), and meal planning/long term food preservation (canning/dehydrating/freezing) around sales and seasonal food to try to keep the costs down. 

Do you have things that you spend on that she doesn't value?  One way to approach it would be to have this be part of her "her" budget since it is something only she places a value on.  Maybe yours is something else.  Or you can plop an equivalent amount in an investment account if that makes you feel better.

Longer term gently share with her info you find that provides an alternative message to the "must have all organic all the time" stuff she is getting from the naturopath.  Big conglomerate organic ag is not that much better than non organic due to the issues mentioned by @RetiredAt63 about soil health.  Sourcing from a local farm that practices regenerative ag principals but is not officially organic may be the healthiest route -- lots of small farms don't bother with the official certifications any more because of the cost and bureacracy involved, but are effectively organic or even better (organic =/= no chemicals). 

Good luck.  I have navigated somewhat similar waters with the SO going on various dietary kicks over the years (low carb, keto, intermittant fasting) but he never insisted the whole family follow along.  I bought more organic stuff for awhile when we were in China due to the higher risks of the mainstream food supply there, but don't worry about it too much now.  Have been growing more of our food the past few years, which has been fun.

Rough numbers are we have a monthly budget of about $5500, we budget $1,000/mo for grocery, it is easily $1500 at this point and we are really just beginning to transition as she is still introducing foods back... so it has added about 10% overall.  My mind has definitely already gone down the path of we need to figure out a more cost effective way of doing this, or she needs to have some financial skin in the game if this is something she truly believes in.  We had a pretty big argument about all of this last night and so it's all fresh in my mind today and I'm just frustrated because it's difficult to argue what is perceived as a healthier lifestyle for the family.  And I'm all for eating better as a family, don't get me wrong, I want that.  I just don't think spending a face punching amount on a organic diet is the answer.

what does this mean? how does she not have skin in your financial life?

Maybe I said it in weird way, but what I mean is since she currently does not bring in any income, it would make me feel better about the situation if she would start to contribute financially to cover the change in lifestyle she wants.

Suggesting that she is not contributing financially is not a winning strategy, to say the least.

I guess the reason why I feel it is somewhat OK is because this is how we have dealt with financial disagreements in the past.  If one person disagrees with a major purchase outside of the budget, they typically have to figure out a way to pay for it with allocated fun money... we also have agreed in the past to the ability to find side gig money to support things we are passionate about.  So it may not be as much of relationship suicide as you are thinking in your mind.

I can't image we are the only couples that have had financial disagreements about spending money on something and the solution has been, "well if you really want it, find a way to pay for it".

Yeah - my wife and I have had similar arguments.

The idea of her just "finding a way to pay for it" when she is a SAHM never worked out though. She will just complain until I agree, or complain to other people until I agree, or she will simply just go buy x thing after I said I don't agree with the purchase. She always gets her way in the end, because I realize divorce would be way more expensive than whatever thing she wants, and I also know she will never go work a job to pay for it.

In short - I have accepted my female overlord. :p

[K_in_the_kitchen]

Obviously, there are communication aspects to work on here.  But having been a SAHM who is also in charge of shopping for food and cooking meals, I would not have gone to DH with every decision about what we were eating.  The difference probably being that I was also in charge of the budget, and as such quite frugal about food.  So I would ask, is the problem the decision to go organic, or the decision to spend more money than you can afford on it?  Would you fight going organic if it was the same price?  Would you fight it if the family income was higher and you were able to increase grocery spending without sidetracking other goals?

As for how your wife wants to eat and feed the family, while I have distrust of naturopathy, I do think there is some solid science behind elimination diets (my allergist had me eliminate every food I tested allergic to and then reintroduce them one by one, for example).  And there are benefits to eating an organic produced diet — for the earth, for the farm workers, for the animals (sometimes), and yes, even for humans.  Not enough benefits  to wreck a budget, however.

If I were you, I would ask your wife if the two of you can sit down and agree on a realistic budget for groceries.  Then I would let go of whether or not the food is organic, as long as the budget is followed.  Your wife would then have to find ways to feed the family organic food on a budget.  This is completely doable.  I feed 5 adults a mostly organic diet for $1000 per month.  I could spend less than that if I cut out the amount of fish we eat, or I could do nearly 100% organic on that budget if I made other choices.  I also buy things that I would rather make, like stupid oat milk creamer for the young adults, gluten free bread for the gluten free young adult, and dairy free Ben & Jerry’s ice cream.  Our budget also includes fair trade (and usually organic) whole coffee beans that they go through at an alarming rate.

Things that could help:

Organic grass fed ground beef isn’t much more than CAFO ground beef, but steaks and roasts are.  Cut those out if you eat beef, or severely limit them.  Another option is to buy a half or whole grass fed cow.  I can buy 200# grass fed beef (half cow) from a rancher in my state for $2289 shipped, which would be $190 per month and give us #4 pounds of beef per week.  Not everyone in my household enjoys eating beef, so it doesn’t make sense when organic grass fed ground beef is $5 per pound at Sam’s Club.

Organic chicken is quite expensive unless you buy whole chickens.  She could learn how to part out whole chickens, or find a store that will do it for her.  For example, at Sprouts the butcher will cut my whole chicken into pieces for me, and I pay the per pound price of the whole chicken.  However, since organic whole chickens are $4 per pound at Sprouts and $2.50 per pound at Sam’s Club (for Rosie chicken), I just cook whole chickens.  I did learn how to part out a chicken at home, but don’t bother.  Also, buying whole chickens, your wife could make her own organic chicken stock, and cut that from the budget, along with any other premade soups.

Find a middle ground on things.  Organic free range eggs can be found for about $4 per dozen, “pasture raised” eggs are $9 per dozen, and there’s nothing that will convince me that an operation that can put eggs in stores all over the country is offering truly pasture raised eggs vs the whole “access to pasture” clause applied to organic egg production.  $4 per dozen can seem high, but you can feed the whole family dinner with a dozen eggs.

Club stores typically have great prices on wild fish, but Aldi can be even better.  Aldi ahi tuna is better than Sam’s Club or Costco, and it’s cheap for wild fish at just over $6 per pound (probably because the pieces are smaller, which is another win for the budget anyway).

Is your wife familiar with the Dirty Dozen and the Clean Fifteen?  While I am a proponent of organic foods when they fit in the budget, I also make sure I know which produce had the least pesticide residue, and buy those conventionally grown if the budget necessitates it.

The biggest thing is stepping away from premade processed foods.  Breakfast cereal is a ripoff, organic breakfast cereal even more so.  Buy organic oats and eat oatmeal and homemade granola.  Make baked oatmeal for a bigger nutritional value.  Grind organic corn and make cornmeal mush for breakfast and polenta as a side dish.  Bake bread of all sorts.  Anything that can be made from scratch can bring the cost of eating organic down.  Make waffles and pancakes.  Make yogurt. The budget can’t cover buying organic “chicken nuggets” or other processed kid food, so she can teach the kids to like foods made at home.  Eliminate juice — it’s expensive when organic and not recommended as part of a healthy diet for children anyway.

This is completely doable with changes in behavior and buying habits.  You were spending $1000 per month before, and that budget can cover a fully organic diet for the family.  It just takes a lot of work in the kitchen, but it’s worth it.

[mistymoney]

FWIW, I've been in a similar situation to your wife - wanting to and then eating a meaningfully differently (a very strict elimination diet) because of I feel so much better while eating that way, while my family does not eat it.

The issue I've dealt with which is at play here too is when my partner doesn't seem to care about the benefits I feel eating a specific way enough to discuss or be open to even having a conversation about how we might incorporate that into our family.

In all of your messages here, I get the same vibe. I get a, "well I know better" vibe which if your wife picks up at all -- and she clearly will feel this -- is going to be a nonstarter for any amount of empathetic conversation. You are focusing entirely on the impact on you and not on her. She's not going to react well because she's a human and you're basically ignoring some major benefits she has experienced in her life.

Having been in a similar situation as your wife, unless you start with an appreciation/empathy and acknowledgement for the benefits she's realizing, you're going to just cause animosity. She's going to get defense and feel like you mostly don't care about how her diet impacts her, just the money aspect. Which from reading the thread certainly feels like the case.

Most of this thread feels like misguided attempts for you to teach your wife how to better do something you don't actually want her to do because of the financial cost. That's certainly one strategy to approach.

If the wife wanted to change her diet, that's one thing.  But she wants to change everyone's. OP doesn't seem to be feeling any benefits from the change in diet, but it has been thrust upon him. 

If this post was about the wife eating organic because she feels health improvements and OP objecting to that cost, I think the responses would have been different. 

That said, I do think that you make a good point about him needing to acknowledge her reasons for wanting this for herself as being perfectly valid and something he supports.  But that doesn't mean that when the kids have an apple for a snack, it needs to be organic.

then can OP buy and cook his own food while she does so for herself and children? Seems there would be an outcry against that as well.

Obviously - if she is feeling better eating a certain way - she is not going to be ok with feeding her kids the food she associates with ill-health.

[Just_Me]

(italic text added)

@Tass @Villanelle you are my reduction is overly and intentionally simplistic, and it's my guess as how his communication on this front is being interpreted.

OP is here looking for validation on the financial and empirical benefits of his perspective which is quite easy to find here in this community. OP's partner's experience defies the data, and his insistence may inadvertently be denying the improvement she feels.


HPStache's wife has felt better eating organic and now thinks it's "better"health value than non organic. Net positive. No consideration of financial value.

HPStache feels no different and believes organic to be worse due to financial cost and impact on his need to work more. Net negative.

There is no universal formula to convert health value to financial cents. It is relationship dependent.

@HPstache your partner may not be aware of the negative impacts this decision has had on your family finances and your mental health. My recommendation is to start asking her how she feels like it's going for the family and really listen. It's obviously important to her. Then once that's done, you can offer to go over how it's impacted your shared fire goal as well as talk about how to make future decisions that impact the whole family. Her response to that offer should give you a pretty good idea on how important fire is (at the moment, at least). The decision making discussion is a completely separate nut to crack.

Best of luck.

[Villanelle]

@Tass @Villanelle you are my reduction is overly and intentionally simplistic. OP is here looking for validation on the financial and empirical benefits of his perspective which is quite easy to find here. 

HPStache's wife has felt better eating organic and now thinks it's "better"health value than organic. Net positive. No consideration of financial value.

HPStache feels no different and believes organic to be worse due to financial cost and impact on his need to work more. Net negative.

There is no universal formula to convert health value to financial cents. It is relationship dependent.

@HPstache your partner may not be aware of the negative impacts this decision has had on your family finances and your mental health. My recommendation is to start asking her how she feels like it's going for the family and really listen. It's obviously important to her. Then once that's done, you can offer to go over how it's impacted your shared fire goal as well as talk about how to make future decisions that impact the whole family. Her response to that offer should give you a pretty good idea on how important fire is (at the moment, at least). The decision making discussion is a completely separate nut to crack.

Best of luck.

I'm not following this sentence.  I don't see how I'm being overly simplistic, if that's what you mean.  I've said, repeatedly, the the approach should be to look for middle ground and compromise.  One which allows Wife to continue to eat organic in ways that give her the health improvements she's seeing, and one that also minimized the expense of that.  If OP had entirely his way, I suspect there'd be no organic food at all, unless it was on sale for less than regular.  If wife had entirely her way--which it seems she felt she should, without even having a conversation on middle ground and compromise--every morsel of food that comes into the house would be organic.

It seem like there's lots of middle ground that allows the wife to continue with the wellness benefits she's seeing, and also addresses OP's financial concerns.  Some organic foods, others regular, and there are many lists to help guide which foods benefit most from organic methods.  Wife eats organic, and OP and/or kids don't or eat partially organic.  Family goes to an extra night each week of meatless (and low cost) eating, to cut costs elsewhere.  Others have suggested the wife find part-time work.  I'm skeptical of how that would work in most families, but in some cases, it certainly would, so could also be considered. 

If that seems "overly and intentionally simplistic to you", I'm not sure what to say. 

[Tasse]

I also genuinely cannot tell if and how @JJ- is disagreeing with me.

I said in the third post of the thread that the issue is fundamentally about communication and joint problem solving, not about organic food.

[mistymoney]

@Tass @Villanelle you are my reduction is overly and intentionally simplistic. OP is here looking for validation on the financial and empirical benefits of his perspective which is quite easy to find here. 

HPStache's wife has felt better eating organic and now thinks it's "better"health value than organic. Net positive. No consideration of financial value.

HPStache feels no different and believes organic to be worse due to financial cost and impact on his need to work more. Net negative.

There is no universal formula to convert health value to financial cents. It is relationship dependent.

@HPstache your partner may not be aware of the negative impacts this decision has had on your family finances and your mental health. My recommendation is to start asking her how she feels like it's going for the family and really listen. It's obviously important to her. Then once that's done, you can offer to go over how it's impacted your shared fire goal as well as talk about how to make future decisions that impact the whole family. Her response to that offer should give you a pretty good idea on how important fire is (at the moment, at least). The decision making discussion is a completely separate nut to crack.

Best of luck.

I'm not following this sentence.  I don't see how I'm being overly simplistic, if that's what you mean.  I've said, repeatedly, the the approach should be to look for middle ground and compromise.  One which allows Wife to continue to eat organic in ways that give her the health improvements she's seeing, and one that also minimized the expense of that.  If OP had entirely his way, I suspect there'd be no organic food at all, unless it was on sale for less than regular.  If wife had entirely her way--which it seems she felt she should, without even having a conversation on middle ground and compromise--every morsel of food that comes into the house would be organic.

It seem like there's lots of middle ground that allows the wife to continue with the wellness benefits she's seeing, and also addresses OP's financial concerns.  Some organic foods, others regular, and there are many lists to help guide which foods benefit most from organic methods.  Wife eats organic, and OP and/or kids don't or eat partially organic.  Family goes to an extra night each week of meatless (and low cost) eating, to cut costs elsewhere.  Others have suggested the wife find part-time work.  I'm skeptical of how that would work in most families, but in some cases, it certainly would, so could also be considered. 

If that seems "overly and intentionally simplistic to you", I'm not sure what to say.

I believe that there is a youngest child who would need daycare if the wife worked a not WFH job. But perhaps there could be some kind of WFH with flexible hours that she could pick up?

Circling back to the ramsey millionaire thread and the wife as helpmate rather than a co-earner - I think this is just the kind of situation where the SAHM really gets penalized. When things are running smoothly all is well when partners are in agreement. But when a difference of opinion comes up on something like this, they can shift from a partner to a financial dependent in the blink of the breadwinner's eyes.

[hooplady]

You say that FIRE is a common goal. Do you have regular checkpoints to see how you're progressing as a family unit, or is it kind of nebulous? If you aren't reviewing things this closely, then FIRE is more of a "someday we hope to get there" kind of dream without an actual plan - a lot harder to discuss the specifics of how a unilateral decision affects things long-term

Conversely, if you have a good tracking system then at your next financial review it should be obvious that the Grocery category has increased substantially. Increases in expenses mean a lower savings rate and your FIRE date will move further into the future. If that is not OK with one of the partners then clearly adjustments must be made. You and your wife may come up with solutions, or she may simply look you straight in the eye and say "So what if you have to work longer?" This is information you need to have, sooner rather than later.