Communication

[Prepube]

I am wondering what others here think about this...

Every day, I run across posts on this site (and others) that suggest couples are not communicating their needs to their partners, that they are not fully disclosing their financial woes and successes to each other, and that they are not sharing goals and desires.  The most recent case that bothered my is a case study over in the Ask a Mustachian thread.  The poster had no idea how much debt they have, no idea what her husband's salary is, no idea what their loan details were, etc. etc. etc... The whole scenario was concerning to me because these folks aren't talking and they therefore will never be on the same page and they therefore will never reach any common goals (because they have none), and they therefore will never be able to take advantage of a forum like this one.  Meanwhile our mustachian colleagues are spending their valuable time assessing her situation and making recommendations and essentially completely wasting their time... she is publicly stating a problem, as is pretty common in these days of excessive social media, but she hasn't talked about it at home yet.  What do you folks think about that?  Social media appears to be replacing the "family discussion" for many people, and the first solution to their problem is not to "Eliminate the credit card debt!", "Stop paying so much for that phone!" or "sell your car and get a bike!" The first and foremost problem to be solved and dealt with is not the money, its the relationship.  "Why aren't you guys talking?" should be the first question we ask.   Improve your (spousal) communication skills and improve your future chances of a comfortable and happy financial future.  It might be as simple as that, for some couples.   

[socaso]

I agree that it really might be as simple as that but I'm continually amazed by how many couples don't or won't. Within my own circle of friends I know people whose spouses flip out every time money comes up and from what I'm told they never talk, it's always an argument. I don't know what causes that emotion in people. It must be so stressful to live that way.

[zataks]

I know people whose spouses flip out every time money comes up and from what I'm told they never talk, it's always an argument. I don't know what causes that emotion in people. It must be so stressful to live that way.

I think too many people have no idea how to handle money or that budgeting is really an option.  Before I found MMM (then Mint!) sure, I "budgeted" but it was the "I spend about XX on groceries and about XX on the mortgage" etc.  All the bills were paid but I racked up credit card debt because, hey, if they are giving it to me, I can afford it, right?!  So then you get to where you have bills that you make payments on but can't pay in full (CCs) and someone asks you about your finances and you're already frustrated and an open channel to let it out has just been opened.  Not saying it's the right way to go about it, but seems likely to me.

Once I told my SO that I had credit card debt and the sum of it, it was a huge load off and she has been a major moral/emotional supporter/cheerleader in my paying it off.  But it was terrifying and embarrassing to admit I had done that to myself.

[citrine]

I don't understand either.  We had a garage sale today with another family and the wife (my friend) was saying how hard it was to talk to her husband about retirement and allocating funds.  She thinks the stock market is like gambling and she has like $20K in an old 401K, but does not know where the exact paperwork for it is and where it might be?!!!  WTF!!  They are both college educated and making close to $160K combined.  I wanted to face punch her so hard!  DH and I make a little more than half of that, have child support, college support, mortgage, and all the other trappings of life....but we still manage to save at least 20% in 401K and both Roth IRA's as well as pay extra on the mortgage.  I would be hunting down my 20K instead of being so frigging apathetic about it!

[TeresaB]

I think some people are just not raised to care about money details. When I met my husband, he had student loans, but didn't know how much or to whom he owed, because his mother had processed the paperwork! (In his defense, he was still in school, so it's not like he was supposed to be paying on them.) Now I'm in primary charge of our finances because I have more experience and skill, and I make sure that he knows what's going on. But I don't think he would ask if I didn't tell him.

[lemanfan]

Not talking about things is probably a problem in other areas of the life to.

What you also got to consider is that money is a hard and guilt-ridden subject for many people.  We might think that the financials of FIRE and compound interest are kind of easy once you learn it - but for many people this represent something bad, shameful and ... basically a cause of concern.  It's better to stick your head in the sand, and hope / trust / pray that it will work out.

Just like weight loss, getting rid of debt and into financial security can often be stopped by psycological factors.

In my country (far far away from USA) we have a TV show called "The Luxury Trap" which is a reality show where they basically send two CPAs into the homes of selected people who are deep into debt.  In most cases, they either do a very powerful visuatlization of what the "victims" earn and spend, and in a decent number of cases that not enough so one or more of the "victims" are sent to a coach or a shrink to overcome the fear of reality.  A big part of this is making a married couple sit down TOGETHER and discuss the situation and their goals.

[Calvawt]

I teach an optional financial acumen classes to our employees.  I cover credit scoring, budgeting, and retirement.  One of my themes is to remove the stigma from talking about money with their spouse.  I think that is so important that I have opened up the class for people to bring their significant other in hopes each person will pick up a few things and that will help jumpstart their discussions!

[Elderwood17]

We do informal marriage coaching through our church and it doesn't surprise me.  Lots of couples have very poor communications between them about important things.  They will tell me things all the time that their spouse doesn't know.  One guy was getting my opinion on a job offer he had that is in a town 60 miles north of our town.  When I asked what his spouse thought he told me the spouse didn't know he had two interviews an a job offer!  Felt he couldn't discuss it yet.  What the ???

[slugline]

I've long believed that the math part of personal finance is the easy part. The hard part is overcoming the emotional hurdles.

[isbjshaffer]

I just heard something similar on the radio yesterday too! They actually called it "infidelity." I had to have hubby explain what they meant as I didn't see how not talking about money and infidelity really had anything to do with each other. What they meant was, hiding financial decisions from their spouse, like credit cards and other purchases being financed. I have a friend who openly tells me his wife does not have access to his credit cards and they have separate banking accounts. He'll often just tell her that something came free or was a gift or it was on sale...misleading her not to think that things are as expensive as they are because they do fight about it. One will get jealous if the other mentions that they got themselves something nice so then they feel like they need something nice too!

It's really crazy to think that people do this in a marriage. What's the point of being together and married if you can't share everything with that person? I try to confront him about it but he doesn't listen, so then I start to get mean about it like, "So you want to file bankruptcy AGAIN?" and then they just tell me everything is fine nothing is wrong, their finances are great and I think, "How can you possibly know that if you don't talk about it or have access to any of it???"

[Prepube]

On the other hand, although my wife and I hold each other accountable for everything we do that affects us financially, privacy is important, too.  We never have completely worked out how to, for example, purchase a surprise present for the other without it being 'public' info, known by whoever happens to look at the chase account online first.  It's not a huge problem for us, but I could see this issue being important to younger couples.  While we subscribe to the "what's yours is mine" approach to things, it's really hard to save money privately, for whatever the purpose, under this arrangement. 

Communication and sharing a common purpose are important, but some things do need to remain private so that individuality within the relationship can be preserved.  Can't do that without a lot of talking...

[RetiredAt63]

Gail Vaz Oxlade did something similar on "Till Debt do Us Part" in Canada - the lack of communication and lack of shared goals was amazing.  Hidden debts, hidden shopping, "I deserve this" spending, "you spent so I will spend" shopping.  A lot of what she did was couples therapy, not financial planning as such. Very educational.

In my country (far far away from USA) we have a TV show called "The Luxury Trap" which is a reality show where they basically send two CPAs into the homes of selected people who are deep into debt.  In most cases, they either do a very powerful visuatlization of what the "victims" earn and spend, and in a decent number of cases that not enough so one or more of the "victims" are sent to a coach or a shrink to overcome the fear of reality.  A big part of this is making a married couple sit down TOGETHER and discuss the situation and their goals.