Stay at home parents, help me to understand

[Lanthiriel]

Childfree, so I'm not sure it's appropriate for me to chime in here, but I get really nervous for SAHPs. My mom was a SAHM until I was probably 11, and I strongly believe that her teaching me at home was a huge reason that I was academically advanced. She actually only entered the workforce because I was being bussed to a much better school than my neighborhood one to participate in a highly gifted program, and she got a job at the school to make sure my sisters could go there. She then worked at that school 32 hours/week during the school year for the next 20 years.

Then my parents got divorced after 27 years. She was making $22k/year with two teenagers at home. My dad has a gold-plated federal retirement, so they never really saved. He cashed her out of the equity in their house and that was all she got. At first there was alimony and child support. Then one sister went to college. Then another. Then alimony ran out. And suddenly she couldn't afford her life anymore. She had to sell her house, quit her job, and leave the town she lived in for 40 years to move across the country to a lower COL area to try to survive until my dad retires and she can start drawing from his federal pension, which could be next month when he turns 55 or not for another 15 years.

My mom is 53 with no education, limited job skills, and under $200k net worth. Because she followed her passion and was a SAHM, girl scout leader, PTA president, and a lot of other things that were very rewarding to her, but weren't accompanied by cash. Because of her experience, I refuse to rely on anyone else to support me (despite being in a stable marriage for almost 10 years), and advise anyone who asks me to make sure they can survive without their spouse's income.

Edit: I will say, though, that I work in a consulting environment and the most successful technical staff have spouses who stay at home or work very limited hours. It is a huge boon to their careers not to have to worry about child care, cleaning, etc. etc.

[crazyworld]

I will be a little provocative here- a number of commenters have mentioned that a SAHP is often needed even with school-age kids, as there is lots of child care still necessary- after school, random holidays, sick days, etc etc. Plus driving to activities.  But families with 2 working parents (or just a single parent) make this work all the time.   
I suspect that part of the issue is that families with a SAHP who is considering returning the workforce often assume that there is no way that the other parent should be asked to change his or her work schedule for child-related reasons, so the SAHP should only look for those "unicorn" jobs that are super-flexible regarding scheduling.  But going from one working parent to two requires that the whole family make compromises. The currently working parent has to have a talk with his or her boss about workload and scheduling, and may have to start taking on more chores at home.  The kids might have to wait at the bus stop instead of getting a ride to school, or be more judicious about choosing after school activities.  These are issues that 2-worker (or single parent) families have already tackled.  It can be a difficult transition for the family that used to have a SAHP, but if everyone is on board, it is doable.

Well sure, you can make anything work.  But if you want a something better for your family?  I just recently started down the road to being sort of a SAHM - son just turned 14.  I would really rather be around than not.  I still work PT from home and starting something else, so quite busy really, but wanted to chime in. If finances were an issue, sure, I'd keep on trucking.  Such an individual choice.

[sokoloff]

Then my parents got divorced after 27 years. She was making $22k/year with two teenagers at home. My dad has a gold-plated federal retirement, so they never really saved. He cashed her out of the equity in their house and that was all she got. At first there was alimony and child support. Then one sister went to college. Then another. Then alimony ran out. And suddenly she couldn't afford her life anymore. She had to sell her house, quit her job, and leave the town she lived in for 40 years to move across the country to a lower COL area to try to survive until my dad retires and she can start drawing from his federal pension, which could be next month when he turns 55 or not for another 15 years.

Was there an unexpected change in terms that caused the alimony to run out? Or was this was a case where all the facts were readily available and your mom didn't take appropriate planning action?

Because of her experience, I refuse to rely on anyone else to support me (despite being in a stable marriage for almost 10 years), and advise anyone who asks me to make sure they can survive without their spouse's income.

My wife deciding to SAH was the trigger for us to get married. (I always wanted to; she didn't care all that much, but obviously she wasn't going to leave her PhD in science ~$100K/yr job to SAH without some certainty of protection that marriage provides from some circumstances.) Mathematically, she was working full time for her 401(k) contributions; there was no net change in monthly household cashflow when she stopped working, stopped commuting, we stopped paying for 2 kids in family daycare, etc. Then, we got a pretty substantial "raise" when the kids went to public school [no more daycare $$] and she was able to start freelancing in her previous field middle of the day sometimes.

Edit: I will say, though, that I work in a consulting environment and the most successful technical staff have spouses who stay at home or work very limited hours. It is a huge boon to their careers not to have to worry about child care, cleaning, etc. etc.

It's a tremendous lift to be the "can-do" executive. Problem halfway around the world? If you tell me in the morning, I can be there the following morning. Do that 3 or 4 times, come through for the company most of the time, and that forms a strong reputation for delivery above-and-beyond expectations.

[mm1970]

I will be a little provocative here- a number of commenters have mentioned that a SAHP is often needed even with school-age kids, as there is lots of child care still necessary- after school, random holidays, sick days, etc etc. Plus driving to activities.  But families with 2 working parents (or just a single parent) make this work all the time.   
I suspect that part of the issue is that families with a SAHP who is considering returning the workforce often assume that there is no way that the other parent should be asked to change his or her work schedule for child-related reasons, so the SAHP should only look for those "unicorn" jobs that are super-flexible regarding scheduling.  But going from one working parent to two requires that the whole family make compromises. The currently working parent has to have a talk with his or her boss about workload and scheduling, and may have to start taking on more chores at home.  The kids might have to wait at the bus stop instead of getting a ride to school, or be more judicious about choosing after school activities.  These are issues that 2-worker (or single parent) families have already tackled.  It can be a difficult transition for the family that used to have a SAHP, but if everyone is on board, it is doable.

Some do.
Some schools have after school care.
Some families are willing to have latch key kids.
Some families have kids in after school sports and have friends to drive them.
Some families make enough money to hire an after school nanny, if they don't have after school care.
Some families have grandma/ aunt to watch their kids at the end of the day.
Some families have flexible work schedules or the ability to work at home.
Some families have one parent who works part time.

A lot of families have none of these, or don't have these options.  Many hourly or shift workers don't have these options.  Teachers, doctors, nurses with a set schedule?  No workplace flexibility there.

Many families who think there is "no way around it" mean this because
- there might really be no way around it
- they want an unicorn job because there would be no other way to afford it.  I have a friend who quit work about 6 years ago.  She'd *like* to go back to work next year when the twins hit kindergarten.  But kindergarten gets out at 12:30 to 2, depending on the week.  Big kid gets out at 2:40.   
- So, after school care at her school (because I looked it up!) is $325 per month per student.  $975 per month.   That's actually pretty reasonably priced - after school care for my kindergartener is $450 a month.  So, families have to "do the math" to see if a full time job, after childcare expenses, is even do-able.

And then, of course, you are essentially deciding that your kids aren't going to be in any kind of extracurricular activity, unless it's offered AT THE SCHOOL.  Because if you are working until 5:15 to pick up at 5:30, there's not gonna be baseball practice at 4pm.

TLDR: *some* families have it figured out because of their unique set of circumstances, and particular desires for their family life.  Life with 2 FT working parents, kids in school, EVEN WITH FLEXIBLE WORK ARRANGEMENTS and "figuring it out" is fucking exhausting.

[FireHiker]

TLDR: *some* families have it figured out because of their unique set of circumstances, and particular desires for their family life.  Life with 2 FT working parents, kids in school, EVEN WITH FLEXIBLE WORK ARRANGEMENTS and "figuring it out" is fucking exhausting.

Isn't that the truth! My husband and I have 2 FT careers, fortunately in the same building (although that is a set of nervousness/eggs in one basket sometimes), 2 miles from home. We do drive to work (usually carpool) because of all the various kid activities, helping in classroom, etc. We know we have it very good, but even with the short commute and massive flexibility (I can bring kids to work occasionally when school is closed, work from home when they're sick, etc), it is nothing short of fucking exhausting. Hopefully by the time the younger ones are in middle school/high school at latest we can RE. I look forward to eating better, exercising more, and being less tired.

The mad scramble after work to make dinner, lunches, oversee homework, etc, is something I wouldn't miss if I could stay home! If I didn't have to work now, I could do more dinner prep midday, start kids on homework at 4 after some outside playtime, and have had a little time for myself to exercise during the day while they're in school. Yes, we make it work, and I know I make "too much" to stay home at this point, but my husband and I regularly discuss how much easier everything would be with a SAHP.

[FIREySkyline]

One reason I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Teaching your own kids. My DW and I do not have kids yet, but we fully intend to homeschool to ensure they get the best education possible. And by best, I don't just mean fact learning. And no, that doesn't mean they would lack for socialization opportunities. I see this as the most valuable thing we can give our future kids, and FIRE will only make it even better.

[bognish]

This is our first year with 2 kids in full time school. My wife is a SAHM. I don't see that ever changing.  Same reasons as have been stated by others. Big one is that we have enough with my salary alone. Why add more stress to our life for slightly more money? Could we make life work with 2 working parents, sure.  Could we all look for a second job on nights or weekends, or add a side hustle in our free time? Sure. But at a certain point when expenses are covered and money is being saved free time has more value than extra money. I would rather enjoy life in my kids school years then cut some time off before retiring or add more money to the bank account.

[moof]

I will be a little provocative here- a number of commenters have mentioned that a SAHP is often needed even with school-age kids, as there is lots of child care still necessary- after school, random holidays, sick days, etc etc. Plus driving to activities.  But families with 2 working parents (or just a single parent) make this work all the time.   

I don't disagree that many make it work.  Among my coworkers here are some one liner examples:
CAD guy works 6-2:30, plus email on-call work from home as needed to take the afternoon pickup and shuttle shift, his wife does 9:6 PM gig to cover the morning shuttle.

One has a part-time spouse and they split the week MWF/TTh for the morning shift.  He'd really like to bike commute all week instead of 3 days, but shuttling of kids, wet weather, and 10 mile normal commute.

Another has 4 kids, SAH spouse just made the most sense.  Sadly for him the SAHW way over schedules so he still has to skip the bike commute way more often than he wants to shuffle kids through the evening activities.

There is also the basic question of why you are having kids at all if the care solution ends up with you barely seeing the kids or your spouse to pay for all the outsourcing?

[marion10]

"One reason I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Teaching your own kids. My DW and I do not have kids yet, but we fully intend to homeschool to ensure they get the best education possible. And by best, I don't just mean fact learning. And no, that doesn't mean they would lack for socialization opportunities. I see this as the most valuable thing we can give our future kids, and FIRE will only make it even better."

I'm pretty sure my kids got a much better education because we did not homeschool them. But it may be our deficiencies. Yes- there are many families where both parents work- or single parent familes- but it is hard. It doesn't magically get easier because the kids are school age.

[Erica]

Our neighbors, the dad is a stay home mom. He tends to the vegetable garden and fruit trees. They have horses, chickens and pigs.  Whatever they would buy, he often knows how to make it in a cheaper and healthier. Laundry soap with no perfumes. They sell part of the pig after it's butchered.
So I guess in a sense, he has a part time job. He works his tail off doing laundry and such.

He is always in shape and takes care of everything so when she's off, she is really off. If he worked another job, they'd need to share the tasks  50/50 which would cut into their personal time. This family hardly ever gets sick. It's probably due to their organic lifestyle. He leads 4h groups with his kids. Their kids go to a Charter School 3 days wk then he teaches them the other two days. So they get a good education which also saves taxpayer money. Public school is pretty costly.

They attend a bible based church but since the roles are reversed, it appears religious beliefs have nothing to do with it. She makes about 35K a yr. This probably keeps them in the lower 10% tax bracket

[Laura33]

I will be a little provocative here- a number of commenters have mentioned that a SAHP is often needed even with school-age kids, as there is lots of child care still necessary- after school, random holidays, sick days, etc etc. Plus driving to activities.  But families with 2 working parents (or just a single parent) make this work all the time.   
I suspect that part of the issue is that families with a SAHP who is considering returning the workforce often assume that there is no way that the other parent should be asked to change his or her work schedule for child-related reasons, so the SAHP should only look for those "unicorn" jobs that are super-flexible regarding scheduling.  But going from one working parent to two requires that the whole family make compromises. The currently working parent has to have a talk with his or her boss about workload and scheduling, and may have to start taking on more chores at home.  The kids might have to wait at the bus stop instead of getting a ride to school, or be more judicious about choosing after school activities.  These are issues that 2-worker (or single parent) families have already tackled.  It can be a difficult transition for the family that used to have a SAHP, but if everyone is on board, it is doable.

Well of course people can make it work if they want to.  But the question was why do families choose to have SAHPs when the kids are in school, and the answer is that they don't want to make those kinds of compromises. 

I think the OP was operating under the assumption that once the kids go to school, all those childcare problems go away, so why not go back to work?  So I, and many others, pointed out that that assumption was mistaken, and that in fact life becomes more complicated when the kids go to school, making trying to juggle two jobs even more stressful than when the kids are little.  That is certainly my experience, at least.

Plus, frankly, I enjoy hanging out with my kids much more now that they can have conversations and have interests and lives separate from me and are no longer just adorable little balls of snot and poop and spoo.  ;-)

[GuitarStv]

My wife and I are both working full time jobs.  Our son is almost four now.  We have been making things work, but it comes at a cost.  We've recently been considering some kind of stay at home or reduced work hour thing because it doesn't look like things will be getting any better time-wise over the next couple years.

[pianomom]

For us it's important that there's someone home when the kids get off from school. We're fortunate in that we own a business, and so I can choose my hours working in the business. Right now I work 15-20 hours/week. Next year when all my kids are in school I'll probably work closer to 30 hours.  I also don't do any client-facing work and for the most part can be very flexible and work from home if needed (although our office is less than ten minutes away). 

Since I can be home part time that gives me time to clean the house, cook, take kids to activities, etc. The biggest thing is that I can stay home with kids when they're sick (which is more often than you'd think). Having me home in the afternoon also lets my husband focus mainly on work and growing the business. If he has to work late or go on a trip then he knows I have things handled on the home front.

This schedule works out very well for us. If I went to work full time then my husband would have less down time as there would be more splitting the chores. It's also nice that our weekends can be together instead of running errands or cleaning the house.

Even though I work part time, I can completely understand why someone would be a full-time SAHP. I feel grateful that I'm part time and can be home with my kids and also keep my foot in the professional world and earn some money. I think each family just does their best and there may be different seasons in life where both parents work or one stays home.

[bogart]

One reason I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Teaching your own kids. My DW and I do not have kids yet, but we fully intend to homeschool to ensure they get the best education possible.

Good on you.  My DH and I do have a kid, and we carefully do not homeschool to ensure he gets the best education possible.  Whatever works for you. 

[MayDay]

The problem with changing the schedule for a newly working spouse is that you are often rearranging a higher earning job in order for the lower earning spouse to make minimum wage and pay half to taxes.

If you make minimum wage you can't pay childcare, so you can only work when kids are in school or higher earning spouse is home.  School is erratic and high earning jobs usually require availability.

I went through this. For awhile my husband altered his work schedule so I could sub. He stayed home late in the mornings and put the kids on the bus. But if he had an important meeting scheduled, he couldn't be like "sorry y'all, my wife is busy making 7$ an hour, gotta miss it!".

Now that I'm back at work we make it work with babysitters. They charge 10-12$ an hour. When I subbed if I needed 20$ of morning babysitting, and I got 80$ for the day, but paid 40 in taxes, and also picked up takeout for dinner and didn't get the cleaning or laundry done, well, we didn't exactly come out ahead.

Now I make 90k a year and it's well worth hiring a sitter if my h can't cover the morning. At minimum wage the stress was not fucking worth it.

[Undecided]

I will be a little provocative here- a number of commenters have mentioned that a SAHP is often needed even with school-age kids, as there is lots of child care still necessary- after school, random holidays, sick days, etc etc. Plus driving to activities.  But families with 2 working parents (or just a single parent) make this work all the time.   
I suspect that part of the issue is that families with a SAHP who is considering returning the workforce often assume that there is no way that the other parent should be asked to change his or her work schedule for child-related reasons, so the SAHP should only look for those "unicorn" jobs that are super-flexible regarding scheduling.  But going from one working parent to two requires that the whole family make compromises. The currently working parent has to have a talk with his or her boss about workload and scheduling, and may have to start taking on more chores at home.  The kids might have to wait at the bus stop instead of getting a ride to school, or be more judicious about choosing after school activities.  These are issues that 2-worker (or single parent) families have already tackled.  It can be a difficult transition for the family that used to have a SAHP, but if everyone is on board, it is doable.

Just because people don't choose to do it doesn't mean those same people don't think it's "doable," only that they don't think it would be their best choice.

[Lanthiriel]

Then my parents got divorced after 27 years. She was making $22k/year with two teenagers at home. My dad has a gold-plated federal retirement, so they never really saved. He cashed her out of the equity in their house and that was all she got. At first there was alimony and child support. Then one sister went to college. Then another. Then alimony ran out. And suddenly she couldn't afford her life anymore. She had to sell her house, quit her job, and leave the town she lived in for 40 years to move across the country to a lower COL area to try to survive until my dad retires and she can start drawing from his federal pension, which could be next month when he turns 55 or not for another 15 years.

Was there an unexpected change in terms that caused the alimony to run out? Or was this was a case where all the facts were readily available and your mom didn't take appropriate planning action?

Oh, she definitely had six years to get it together with a very clear idea that the money was running out. It was deeply frustrating to watch. There were a ton of contributing factors and she absolutely should have finished her teaching degree and this would have been better. Even now she's driving me crazy because I keep asking her to check her divorce paperwork and ssa.gov to get an idea for what her retirement income will look like and she just... won't. I know that not all SAHPs are like this--in fact, I would hope she's in the minority--but it still scares the pants off me and deeply colors the way I look at being a SAH spouse.

[Cassie]

I had 3 kids and stayed home for 9 years. When the youngest started kindergarten I started college and finished in 3 years.  Then I got a p.t. job and also went on for my master's degree. I had to take very low pay for my first professional job but I was fine with that knowing I would need to build my resume. When employers asked what I had done I was honest that I stayed home with the kids, did volunteer work at school, cub scouts, etc and then went to college.  When my youngest was 12 I went back to work f.t. That way I did not have to worry about daycare.  My Mom helped out when the kids were sick or needed to go to a doctor appointment I could not do. My Dh worked nights and was the primary wage earner so he wasn't home to shuffle the kids around. I never understood the staying home once kids are in school f.t. I would find it too boring.  When the kids are small you are much busier.

[Syonyk]

One reason I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Teaching your own kids. My DW and I do not have kids yet, but we fully intend to homeschool to ensure they get the best education possible. And by best, I don't just mean fact learning. And no, that doesn't mean they would lack for socialization opportunities. I see this as the most valuable thing we can give our future kids, and FIRE will only make it even better.

I mentioned it on the last page. :p  I married a teacher, so that should work out quite well!

Good on you.  My DH and I do have a kid, and we carefully do not homeschool to ensure he gets the best education possible.  Whatever works for you.

Yeah!  Being bored to fucking death in classes while waiting for other kids is totally awesome!

Sorry, not interested in subjecting our kid(s) to that.  Did it.  It sucked.  I gave up some very promising early rabbitholes that turned out to be very useful because they interfered with other classes.  My Z80 assembly programming has served me far, far better than the word find busywork from other classes in high school.

[Helvegen]

I never understood the staying home once kids are in school f.t. I would find it too boring.  When the kids are small you are much busier.

I dunno why you'd have to just SAH and watch paint dry though. There are lots things you can fill your time with easy.

For logistical reasons, I had to FT SAH when my only child was between 5 and 8. She was at school a good part of the day, so I just started volunteering. I volunteered at my daughter's school. I volunteered for the library. I volunteered for the animal shelter. Almost all of the volunteer jobs were related to my money earning vocation, so I never really had a gap to discuss per se. Both mine and my husband's experiences with selling the volunteering during job interviews has been overwhelmingly positive and has helped get us paid employment. I also took online courses through a community college. I would often go to the local parks and hike for my cardio. I spent a lot of my time reading and learning more about cooking, economics, and personal finance. So a FT SAH  can find ways to not be bored if they bother to look.

I'm planning quitting my FT job sometime mid next year to SAH part-time and WOH part-time. I always thought that was the best balance when we were forced into it during the recession. We didn't have a lot of money for sure, but we definitely had a lot of time, which can be just as valuable. Things are a lot different now. We have lots more money, husband makes way more money. We don't live off of my income at all now - all gets banked and then some. So basically I just want to make extra scratch on the side and spend most of my effort on the household and volunteering.

[bogart]

Yeah!  Being bored to fucking death in classes while waiting for other kids is totally awesome!

Sorry, not interested in subjecting our kid(s) to that.  Did it.  It sucked. 

OK ... my kid's in the same (good) public school system I (and my stepkids) went to, and it's worked well for us so far, but really my point wasn't so much about the school system (here) being good as it was about the quality of the homeschooling I/my DH would provide being bad.  I'm 100% confident homeschooling is not something I (or he) want to do, or would do well.  We are, for the record, nonetheless good parents.  And sure, we'd step up if we needed to, and do it, but that's clearly not an optimal situation for us.  Again, if it is for you, go for it.

[Kyle Schuant]

These are issues that 2-worker (or single parent) families have already tackled.  It can be a difficult transition for the family that used to have a SAHP, but if everyone is on board, it is doable.

Many things are doable, but they are not necessarily optimal. For example, for some time I was making all our bread at home. This worked out to a bit under $1 a loaf. At the bakery, an equivalent loaf was $2. All that work and effort to save $4-5 a week wasn't worth it. Now, if I were an accomplished baker and making wonderful bread, it might be different; but this was ordinary bread. So that use of my time was doable, but it wasn't optimal. I have since made bread... for Friday night dinners, with my son helping. As a way of saving money, it's doable but not optimal; as a way of spending time with my son and having a nice meal, it's both doable and optimal.

Likewise, a parent who must go to work AND rush to take children to and from school and activities is likely to be more stressed and unhappy than one who just goes to work OR rushes to transport them. And that stress and unhappiness is of course bad for the parent, but it's not great for the kids, either. "Why is papa always shouting?" So some parents may decide to have one stay at home and deal with all that stuff.

[Mrs. D.]

I'm a SAHM (I do some part-time work) to a small child with another on the way. I will say home as long as possible because 1) I find immense joy and fulfillment in it and 2) DH's role is to do the best damn job he can earning the money and my job is to do the best damn job I can protecting that money. That means I put a LOT of time into shopping at Aldi, cooking meals at home, searching for deals on things we need to buy, pouring over our finances and bills, and finding low-cost and free ways to entertain and stimulate my son.
It's not just the cost of daycare to factor in when considering how far that 2nd salary will go. It's also how much extra money is spent on convenience items because you don't have the time or are too exhausted at the end of the work day to put energy into economizing and frugality. And (in my case at least) how much additional stress I would be undertaking to see only a modest increase in our finances. Simply put, not worth it to me.

[Syonyk]

Many things are doable, but they are not necessarily optimal. For example, for some time I was making all our bread at home. This worked out to a bit under $1 a loaf. At the bakery, an equivalent loaf was $2. All that work and effort to save $4-5 a week wasn't worth it.

How much is it worth to feed your family something that has nothing particularly unpronounceable in it as a preservative or flavor additive or (whatever)?  Storebought bread lasts weeks in the open.  Homemade bread lasts days in the open.

How much is warm bread right out of the oven/bread machine worth? :D  Seriously, sitting down with my wife in the evening and munching on fresh bread and butter?  Yum.  It's not always about the money.  And, this is certainly my perspective, but I love coming in from work to the smell of a house filled with baking bread.  Delicious!

2) DH's role is to do the best damn job he can earning the money and my job is to do the best damn job I can protecting that money.

That's a good description of the arrangement my wife & I have.  I earn it, she spends it efficiently to take care of the family.

[Kyle Schuant]

I get really nervous for SAHPs.  [...] I refuse to rely on anyone else to support me (despite being in a stable marriage for almost 10 years), and advise anyone who asks me to make sure they can survive without their spouse's income.

Cautious planning for the future is always useful. But my instinct is that expecting your marriage to fail may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. It leads to your holding back, not trusting - and the other person senses this and does the same, so you live your separate lives and eventually decide to divorce. As I joke sometimes, "If you make your spouse feel like a single parent there's every chance they may decide to make it official."

There needs to be a certain amount of discussion and back-and-forth and joint accounts and so on.

Being 46yo, I'm now of an age to have seen a few marriages fail around me. One mistake seems to be to only consider the children. Thus, "I'll leave her/him once the kids grow up." Great, so you'll be leaving them totally alone, that's thoughtful. The mistake there is thinking only of the children, not of the spouse. But this was obviously happening before.

Once children come along, it's easy to become asexual roommates who share care of children. It takes deliberate effort to act still as husband and wife and keep some romance going. At some point in the first months of your child's life, you will be at the dinner table having a conversation about the consistency of your child's poo. When you do this, you are unlikely to have passionate sex afterwards.  So you do need to be conscious that the natural tendency of the vehicle of marriage is to slide into the ditch of boring domesticity and get stuck in the mud, you need to keep your hands on the wheel and keep it on the road of happiness.

Just as there are many people who should never have got married, so too there are many marriages which could, with some effort, have never got into serious trouble in the first place.

I believe in smoke alarms, but I also believe in not living in a house made of straw soaked in kerosene.

[Kyle Schuant]

this is certainly my perspective, but I love coming in from work to the smell of a house filled with baking bread.  Delicious!

So what you're saying is that the person who does not have to make the effort to bake it, thinks that it's worth the effort? :)

[Syonyk]

So what you're saying is that the person who does not have to make the effort to bake it, thinks that it's worth the effort? :)

Yup!  I also enjoy coming in from work to the smell of soup on the stove, cookies in the oven, and various other things my wife and daughter make!

[SC93]

Having owned a large house cleaning business for 19 years (my previous life) I've seen thousands of households from the inside. I think the majority of those households both worked, mom would come home and cook just about every evening. I don't know about baking.

Funny thing too, lots of couples rarely sleep together. Lots of times one of them sleeps on the couch. This could be for a few different reasons but I found it odd. I never will forget one of Warren Buffet's best friends was showing me her house when I was giving her an estimate and she said, "What I'm about to show you is the G_th_n household secret. I don't expect anyone else to know about this.". And then she showed me her husbands bedroom. So I said.... how about we just call if your family member's bedroom because I will have different girls in here cleaning so we just won't tell them. Their reason was.... they didn't like each other but didn't want anyone to know it. lol

[Kyle Schuant]

I think the majority of those households both worked, mom would come home and cook just about every evening. I don't know about baking.

That's the statistics, yes: when women and men both do paid work of equal hours, the woman in the couple tends to do more of the housework regardless.

In our household, we long ago agreed that housework done should be in inverse proportion to the hours of paid work. For example, if A does 40hr pw and B does 20hr, well A is doing 2/3 of the paid work, so B will do 2/3 of the unpaid work.

Obviously it will never work out precisely so. In practice, we gravitate to the activities we don't mind so much. I give my wife the job of sorting the washing. I don't mind cleaning the toilet or cooking or wiping bums or whatever, but washing-sorting is unbearably tedious to me.

[mm1970]

One reason I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Teaching your own kids. My DW and I do not have kids yet, but we fully intend to homeschool to ensure they get the best education possible. And by best, I don't just mean fact learning. And no, that doesn't mean they would lack for socialization opportunities. I see this as the most valuable thing we can give our future kids, and FIRE will only make it even better.

I mentioned it on the last page. :p  I married a teacher, so that should work out quite well!

Good on you.  My DH and I do have a kid, and we carefully do not homeschool to ensure he gets the best education possible.  Whatever works for you.

Yeah!  Being bored to fucking death in classes while waiting for other kids is totally awesome!

Sorry, not interested in subjecting our kid(s) to that.  Did it.  It sucked.  I gave up some very promising early rabbitholes that turned out to be very useful because they interfered with other classes.  My Z80 assembly programming has served me far, far better than the word find busywork from other classes in high school.

Going to depend a lot on your kid and the school.  My kid has always been advanced, but the school has made sure he's not bored. They have teachers that assign him more work, and do regular grouped "pull outs" for the advanced kids.

Some people homeschool because their schools don't do this. I have another friend who is very religious and homeschools.  Her son just started regular school this year, and first report card, all A's!  Which is great.  Except...he's enrolled in 5th grade and taking 4th grade math...but age-wise would normally be in 6th.  It's probably what is best for him (which is why she homeschools).  Schools like to age-group and that's not always the best.  I've got other friends whose kids have skipped grades.

[mm1970]

Funny thing too, lots of couples rarely sleep together. Lots of times one of them sleeps on the couch.

This used to be - a LOT.
- I have insomnia
- I get too hot
- He snores sometimes

Then I did two things:
- Started taking sleeping pill to fight the insomnia
- Got my own blanket.  Turns out our combo duvet is too heavy.  Same bed, different blankets.  Works wonders.

[Cassie]

Helvegan: instead of volunteering and filling my time when the kids were in school I worked at my career and earned a pension which I am now enjoying. It was a much better use of my time.

[use2betrix]

My wife and I don’t have kids. I’m 29 and her 24. I work, she doesn’t. The money she would work is not worth the time away from home it would take her. Her not working allows me to work more, and I make 5-6x more than she ever would. We also travel while I do contract work so it’s not that practical.

If your wife is not capable of doing much to be productive around the house then I understand. Many people are like that.

My wife is a fu***** work horse though and she’d work circles around most women and men. Most my coworkers have stay at home wives and to be honest, a lot of them seem pretty worthless. My wife is unreal at home. Before our last trip she took out our factor 4Runner battery, replaced it with a deep cell, and hardwired in a fridge for the hatch. That’s the kind of stuff she does, beyond cooking all our meals from scratch (she calculates every meal down to the calorie and macronutrient), waking up at 5:30 to make me breakfast, packing fresh lunch, laundry, cleaning, all errands, etc etc. she literally probably does more work in a given day than me.

I have not cooked a meal or done a load of laundry, or even really cleaned anything in years. When I had a lawn, she mowed it. I’m amazed at all these men that have stay at home wives and still spend their weekends doing chores and crap... like what does your wife do while you’re at work? My wife would rather do everything while I’m at work so 100% of my time off is doing stuff together we enjoy.

[GuitarStv]

Funny thing too, lots of couples rarely sleep together. Lots of times one of them sleeps on the couch.

This used to be - a LOT.
- I have insomnia
- I get too hot
- He snores sometimes

Then I did two things:
- Started taking sleeping pill to fight the insomnia
- Got my own blanket.  Turns out our combo duvet is too heavy.  Same bed, different blankets.  Works wonders.

My son didn't sleep through the night regularly until he was well into three years old.  My wife and I would take alternating turns sleeping in the basement to survive this period.

[kanga1622]

My husband and I both work full time and it is hard to juggle with school schedules. You have to decide who is calling in to stay with the kids for sick days, someone has to leave early at least one day a month for the early dismissal, we have to take time off for the random days off for teacher inservices, who watches the kids for Spring Break/Christmas Break/Summer Break. The other issue is drop off and pick up times: the early elementary school staffs their playground at 7:45 so you can drop your kids off and still make it to work by 8. The next level elementary doesn’t staff the playground until 8:05. Since most every Office job begins at 8, you have to be able to come in late every day or be comfortable dropping off your 7 year old in -20 degrees with no supervision.

In places where after school care isn’t available, you add another layer of complexity. No after school care is available here once your kids hit middle school. I am not comfortable leaving an 11 year old alone for a couple hours each afternoon once they get off the bus and walk home alone.

And honestly, isn’t middle and high school the time when you get the worst ideas? Unsupervised 15 year olds have easy access to sex, liquor, and all sorts of information on the internet to get themselves into trouble. And the amount of cyber bullying these days is unreal.

My DH works a 10 month contract. Basically I am expected to cover any days off in May and August that school isn’t in session. We have to find some way to have help with the kids because I can’t exactly take 3 weeks off work each August when I have deadlines to meet and projects to keep moving forward.

Not living near the grandparents also plays in to some of the difficulties. I grew up in a farming community so there was often a farm wife, Grandma, or Aunt that didn’t work outside the home that could pick up kids and be the after school care. Not living near family really makes these types of arrangements hard.

[jeninco]

I will be a little provocative here- a number of commenters have mentioned that a SAHP is often needed even with school-age kids, as there is lots of child care still necessary- after school, random holidays, sick days, etc etc. Plus driving to activities.  But families with 2 working parents (or just a single parent) make this work all the time.   
I suspect that part of the issue is that families with a SAHP who is considering returning the workforce often assume that there is no way that the other parent should be asked to change his or her work schedule for child-related reasons, so the SAHP should only look for those "unicorn" jobs that are super-flexible regarding scheduling.  But going from one working parent to two requires that the whole family make compromises. The currently working parent has to have a talk with his or her boss about workload and scheduling, and may have to start taking on more chores at home.  The kids might have to wait at the bus stop instead of getting a ride to school, or be more judicious about choosing after school activities.  These are issues that 2-worker (or single parent) families have already tackled.  It can be a difficult transition for the family that used to have a SAHP, but if everyone is on board, it is doable.

Sure, and it's doable for everyone in the family to spend a half-day (to a full day) on the weekends doing chores and errands. Having a SAHP (for this group) is a choice: do you want to trade your time for additional income? Or are you willing to give up some additional income to have time to spend with your family, helping kids with homework, preparing food, etc. etc.

I will add, however, that there's a bit of an "underground economy" that depends on SAHP and early retirees and similar folks: that's who (mostly) is active in school PTAs, and volunteering in classrooms and parks, and keeping an eye on neighborhoods during the day, and walking people's dogs, and covering each other's unexpected emergencies. I've seen that a fair amount of the fabric of a solid society is woven of people who have the flexibility and desire to help out when the helping needs to happen -- which is often during the work day.

For the record, I work part time (doing very technical stuff) at home, and also am a volunteer math tutor at the High school, help out with before-school homework club at the middle school, help manage the HS soccer team, am a volunteer ski patroller, have been intermittently active in school PTOs and around issues of school curriculum changes, have run supplemental math programs at my kids schools ... plus I generally go for a walk or run in the middle of the day, so I'm one more set of eyes on my neighborhood. I also do most of the stuff other people have listed, like take my kids to/from school when they were little -- by bike, obviously -- carpool kids to soccer practices, arrange music lessons and doctor's appointments and be home for repairs, cook the meals -- generally manage the household and all the people in it.

And a big +1 to all the stuff high school aged teenagers get into in an empty house. Oy!

[BlueHouse]

I'll give a perspective from someone whose mom was a SAHM.  Dad died when I was young, but he set up insurance so my mom could continue to stay home with us for a few more years.  It was incredibly comforting to know my mom was home at all times.  I walked home from school for lunch and she had lunch waiting for me.  When I came home from school, she met me at the door.  In the mornings, she walked me to the door every single day.  My mom's life revolved around the kids because that's what she liked and that's what my dad liked while he was alive too. 

When the money started to run out, she had to return to work and it was upsetting to me because she wasn't there when I wanted her to be.  We didn't have the same conversations anymore because she was tired.  She couldn't help me with my homework as much because she had work of her own. 

I think a lot of people forget this, but it's incredibly comforting to a child to know (or at least believe) that she's the center of the universe to at least one person.  And I was the youngest of 5!  I can't believe I felt so important in my mother's life with everything else that went on in our household. 

[MayDay]

Blue House, so true.

My seven year old is currently adjusting to me going back to full time work and it is ROUGH for her.

Now in the long run I actually think it's great for her to see Mom working at a job she loves and that brings her mental fulfillment! But as a seven year old- it sucks.

My mom went back to work when I was ~11 and I hated it. I especially hated going to group childcare. So we spent my entire paycheck this summer on a nanny. Sucked but oh well.

[StacheyStache]

SO and I don't have kids but have been discussing the subject as we aren't getting any younger (31 him, very soon to be 29 me).  Right now he works 4 days a week as a tailor with two weekdays and one weekend day off and I work 5 days a week as a lawyer with weekends off (other than about one Saturday a month when I have to work extra).  The two weekdays that he has off are SO NICE...for me.  I come home to a clean home and dinner made, errands run, cat fed and played with so he isn't mewing for attention all night, litter box scooped.  He even has a snack and iced tea waiting for me most days since he knows I often don't have time to eat lunch.   I try to return the favor on the weekend day I have off and he works but he is much better and more efficient at virtually all chores.  I'm a good cook and that's about it. 

I get it about dual income households still having to do all the things that stay at home households do and I also get the temptation to think of the stay at home spouse as not pulling their weight, especially once kids are in school.  I felt that way for a long time.  And we live in a one bedroom apartment with one cat and no kids so I'm not under any delusion that it takes the whole day to do all the chores; he definitely has time for sleeping in and playing video games on his days off (when he isn't sewing for his side hustle) and probably has more leisure hours than I do, but seriously, who cares?  It's not a competition.  He's relaxed and happy, I'm relaxed and happy (and NOT scrubbing toilets), what's the problem?  My attitude towards stay at home parents (or even stay at home partners without kids) has drastically changed now that I see how nice it is to flop down on the couch when I get home from 8 hours (plus commute) of go go go and wait for a plate to be put in front of me.  How sweet is that??  I often tell him I wish I made enough money for him to stay home full time and just sew for his side hustle and take care of the house...and me.  Sadly I work for local government and am grossly underpaid so this is at least 3-5 years away. 

Marriage is probably not too far off but I want to wait for kids until I make enough for him to stay home full time.  The three days a week we both work are already hard enough.  We come home, exhausted, neither of us wanting to cook or clean up the mess that'll follow dinner and succumb to the takeout temptation way too often.  We don't exercise on those days, we are too wiped to do much of anything.  I HATE those three days a week!  I can't imagine adding kids to that.  Not only that but he has the ability to work from home and take on commissions as time allows, whereas I have to be in court almost every day.  It makes sense for us.  YMMV.

[Helvegen]

Helvegan: instead of volunteering and filling my time when the kids were in school I worked at my career and earned a pension which I am now enjoying. It was a much better use of my time.

Great, but my point was if you have to SAH with older kids, it does not have to be boring. I stayed home because it made no sense for me to work at that time. When it did, i went back. NBD. But being bored never factored into the decision to go back to work, just like it never factored into the decision to SAH. Some days, I'm more bored and frustrated at work because all I can think about is how much more productive I could be if I were at home. Is what it is until mid next year though. Have a financial goal to reach before I can drop to working PT.

[Laura33]

I'll give a perspective from someone whose mom was a SAHM.  Dad died when I was young, but he set up insurance so my mom could continue to stay home with us for a few more years.  It was incredibly comforting to know my mom was home at all times.  I walked home from school for lunch and she had lunch waiting for me.  When I came home from school, she met me at the door.  In the mornings, she walked me to the door every single day.  My mom's life revolved around the kids because that's what she liked and that's what my dad liked while he was alive too. 

When the money started to run out, she had to return to work and it was upsetting to me because she wasn't there when I wanted her to be.  We didn't have the same conversations anymore because she was tired.  She couldn't help me with my homework as much because she had work of her own. 

I think a lot of people forget this, but it's incredibly comforting to a child to know (or at least believe) that she's the center of the universe to at least one person.  And I was the youngest of 5!  I can't believe I felt so important in my mother's life with everything else that went on in our household.

This is entirely valid. 

But let me also add that everyone's experience is different, and we tend to rationalize our own as "best," without realizing that we may have done just fine if our experience had been different.

E.g., my mom worked.  She was a single mom and had to, but she was always clear with me that she would work even if she didn't have to financially, because she loved what she did and needed to do that at a fundamental level.  As a result, I was the classic latchkey kid from around 7 on. 

Was it perfect?  Of course not.  There were days I wanted her home, like everyone else's mom.  But, damn, the freedom and independence!  To do what I wanted, make my own snack, climb the tree, ride my bike?  And even better: to know that she trusted me to do all of that without looking over my shoulder?  It made me feel like I could handle anything.  Not all the time -- the tornado warning afternoon was definitely an "oh, shit" day -- but it certainly prepared me to go off and run my own life, to assume that I was competent to handle anything.  And my own experience, in turn, gave me a completely different view of what my own kids are capable of than many of my friends.

And I also didn't feel unloved or unimportant.  She always said that I was the most important thing in her life, but I was not the only thing in her life.  I never doubted for a minute that if I really needed her, she would drop everything and be there as fast as humanly possible.

The reality is that I can't say that I felt as "safe" or "loved" as you did, because I didn't live your life; I don't know if I would have been happier with my mom at home or felt stifled.  At the same time, you can't know that you would have felt the same way had your mom working been all you had ever known, or whether your sense of loss was because of the change that you perceived as taking her away from you.  And neither one of us can know how much our own perceptions are colored by our mom's view of the situation -- my mom's joy at working, your mom's preference to stay home.  And yet despite the different upbringings and completely different experiences, we both ended up with happy childhoods and grew to become well-adjusted, productive members of society.  So did we each just luck into the parents we needed?  Or were our perceptions of our own needs molded by the parents we had?

I mention this because I tend to work with a number of younger women who grew up with "perfect" SAHMs and "perfect" childhoods, but who themselves enjoy their jobs and want to work, but who then feel like failures because that choice does not provide their kids the same "perfect" childhood they had, with the mom who had fresh-baked cookies after school and who cut their sandwiches into the shape of a pumpkin on Halloween.  Objectively speaking, these women are working harder and doing a better job at the "good mom" role than I am; and yet they feel, every day, as if they are failures, because they are not living up to the examples they had in their own lives.  The pressure they feel -- the constant second-guessing of whether they are doing enough for their kids -- is immense.  And it makes me sad.  No, not sad -- angry.  Because it is so fucking unnecessary.

My advice to them is to find the balance that works for them, their families, and their values -- they can choose to stay home full-time; they can choose to work full-time; they can go part-time; and a hundred variations in-between.  But they should trust that their kids will turn out just fine whichever path they choose, because kids with working moms still feel safe and loved, and kids with SAHMs still learn to be independent and capable -- because kids are resilient and see whatever they live as "normal."  And if they find one day that what they have chosen is no longer working, for them or their families, they can always change that decision.

Tl;dr:  don't drive yourself batshit trying to live up to someone else's standards that don't reflect your own life.

[Tuskalusa]

Honestly, I have to ask if the poster has kids. There is one truth across all income levels. Raising children and running a home is time consuming and challenging. Public schools are not open consistently to allow for full time work. Also, the schools, in my area at least, require supplementation and help from parents. I spent a lot of time helping with homework, helping plan for complex assignments, and arranging tutoring, when needed.

I worked corporate FT gigs until my son was 9. We were constantly stressed. I had to hire help and essentially wound up managing a staff. Yes, my husband was helpful, but it’s not efficient to shift duties daily based on who has meetings and travel. We finally gave up, and I made the decision to quit. I was the main breadwinner in our family for years. We finally reached the point where our roles switched, and I took on the full time job of managing the house, school, family, aging parents, etc. it’s a full time job. I have a flexible PT job at a nonprofit that pays about 10% of what I used to make. But it keep my foot in the workforce, and it helps the community.

I don’t even know what to say about the comment about welfare moms, except to point out that we neve4 talk about welfare dads. Just another example of how our society generally hold the moms accountable for the family.

I’m grateful to have had a solid job for 20 years so that I could take on my new “unpaid job” as a member of the sandwich generation. I have no idea how low income people make this work. I think the family is on board because they are likely in survival mode. If the US had more consistent school hours or a decent living wage policy, it would really help those who don’t have the luxury to live off one income in a 2-parent Family.

[Thegoblinchief]

My kids struggled in traditional school but thrive in homeschool. That's the primary reason I went full-time SAHD but now that I am full-time at-home I got into homesteading, partly as a hobby, partly as additional education for the kids, and partly to save money/improve the quality of our food. Homeschooling and homesteading together keep me way more stimulated than most jobs ever would. My brain is constantly engaged.

It does also help my wife, who works a pretty demanding job that occasionally requires long hours at short notice.

[jlcnuke]

I'm a high earner and my DW is the SAHP. We (my son and I) would be SOL without her being at home, plain and simple. If I had to hire someone to replace everything the SAHP does, it would cost me $100k+/yr easily. (see this article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/05/02/why-stay-at-home-moms-should-earn-a-115000-salary/#7df86f4475f4)

Sorry, I wasn't going to post in here, but that article (and the one's like it that periodically pop up) is absolute crap and it deserves to be called out as such.  Let's start with the basic - every household (whether people are working or not) has people doing most of that stuff. Staying at home doesn't make chores suddenly appear. That janitor working 40 hours a week is doing that job, at that wage, AND going home and cleaning their own house for free. That laundry service worker is still doing their laundry for free as well (like just about every other person).  The "chores" they do, above and beyond what any working household, much less working parent, does is little to nothing. A bachelor with no kids still has to clean their house, do their laundry, cook food, pay bills, do shopping, etc. If they wanted to find an "actual" cost they should eliminate all the time doing stuff that any average household without a SAHP does for free (as with the number of households paying $0/hour for that work puts the value of that work at somewhere just above $0/hour..). I "could" pay a driver to take me to work and back every day, that doesn't mean I should tell anyone that my "effective pay" as a worker includes the effective amount a chauffeur would earn for doing what I do because that's just part of being a person, even if *some* people pay someone to do that for them.

[Syonyk]

Plus, half of marriages end in divorce.

That's a very misleading statistic - as well as being simply wrong now.

First, the divorce rate has been falling for a while in absolute terms.

Second, that statistic has always included people who've gotten divorced from 5 marriages.  Serial marriagimists?  It's never been accurate for two people who got married as their first marriage.

And, beyond that, I fundamentally disagree with designing your marriage for failure.  I stopped reading MSN about 15 years ago after flipping through their "relationship" section and realizing that every bit of marriage advice consisted of, "Well, it's probably going to fail, so here's how you protect your assets/design for divorce/etc."  Screw that.  My wife & I deliberately made our marriage hard to rip apart.  Shared finances, no prenups, etc.  This was a deliberate decision.

[Laura Ingalls]

In answer to your first question.  I have always found my household works better with at least one adult home.  Over 17 years of marriage we have had no jobs, one part-time, two part-time, one part and one full time, one full-time, and two full time jobs. Currently, my DH and I have two kids in public school (12 and 15).  We are semi-FIRED and mostly do not work at the same time. 

[ROF Expat]

For me, getting to be a SAHD and spend time with my 7-year-old is one of the best parts of FIRE.  For me the question isn't  "What’s the rationale for a SAHP when kids are in school or teenagers" but "What's the rationale for missing out on my child's life to work for money I don't need?" 

[talltexan]

There is also the basic question of why you are having kids at all if the care solution ends up with you barely seeing the kids or your spouse to pay for all the outsourcing?

Moof-
do you have children? I have never heard people who had children ask this question.

[GuitarStv]

There is also the basic question of why you are having kids at all if the care solution ends up with you barely seeing the kids or your spouse to pay for all the outsourcing?

Moof-
do you have children? I have never heard people who had children ask this question.

Possibly because it's far too fucking late to ask that question once you have children?

[Kyle Schuant]

they should trust that their kids will turn out just fine whichever path they choose

All very cogent and useful points. As a man, I don't get that same pressure to be brilliant at everything. It's different for women.

But to elaborate on your last point. I tell people considering or about to have children: Don't sweat it. Statistically, even children who are actually deliberately abused by their parents mostly turn out alright. And you're not going to do that, so they'll certainly be alright.

We get so much advice about how to do things with children, right from conceiving to pregnancy (ah, the moralising pregnant women get as their bodies become public property!) to babies to adolescents, it never stops - and it's all contradictory.

But even abused children are mostly alright. So ours will be fine, just do what you reckon is good, I say.