Stay At Home Parent Talk (my wife is quitting)

[MooseOutFront]

This is a tough one for our extreme early retirement plans, which called for quitting in 5.5 yrs.  We make about the same money each.  At a current savings clip of 50-55%, well you can see what losing one of us does to the savings.  We currently have 2 children that share a nanny with a 3rd and it runs us about $18k/yr.

The plan is for her (attorney) to pursue court appointments and contract  / ghost writing type work while being at home with the baby and toddler full time.  Stuff that doesn't require much of a physical presence and can be done almost entirely from home.  But we don't have a good handle on how much income to expect from this.  The part that I like is this type of self employment was the plan for her during FIRE, so she'll be way ahead of the game 5.5 yrs from now which could easily allow us to still FIRE on schedule with a smaller nest egg.

The kinda good news, financially, is that I know there is a lot of fat in our spending that we can now trim entirely.  I figure we can save $100 on groceries, $100 on lunch, $150 on eating out, $100 on gas, $120 on cleaning service, etc.  I have it figured that our variable spending drops $700 per month once she's at home with the kids, from $1900 to $1200 per month.  I welcome thoughts on this from those with experience however.  There could easily be some long term benefits from learning to do with less on this front.

So far as family life goes, I'm certain that this will be better for our family in the short term.  Everyone will be happier and I have no doubts about it on that front.  FIRE plans, assuming minimal income estimates for her, means we have $250k less in 5.5 years than we would have.  In reality she'll make more with self employment than I've estimated, it won't cost us near $250k, and we'll be set up better to both go part time whenever the time is right.

Still stings my spreadsheets though.  I know there are many other SAHPs on this board.  Maybe not many that made the same income as their spouse when they quit, but I may be surprised. 

[MrFrugalChicago]

What age are the kids?

Is she going to be full time stay at home when they are in school?

I think stay at home makes sense before first grade. After first grade, I would have a hard time not having the wife work. Maybe 20h a week.. but maybe that is being a jerk. But I see all the potential $$$s, and I get nervous of missing them.

[MooseOutFront]

kids are 0.5 and 2.5.  The FIRE plan calls for us to both work part time, but it also coincides with when #2 starts kindergarten.  Hopefully her self employment works out well enough to where she can earn solid money at that time while still being free to SAHM before and after school stuff.

[RetiredAt63]

Aren't you saving $1500/month (the $18,000 per year) right away by not needing the nanny any more?  And that is after-tax dollars you are paying the nanny with.

I taught part-time while our DD was little (6-12 months) and it is hard to do other things, especially things that require thinking.  A baby and toddler take a lot of effort, that is why you are paying a nanny.  If she is looking after them and trying to free-lance, she may not have much time and energy left to implement a lot of life-style changes.  Actually, let's be real, she won't have any.  Some savings should be automatic (i.e. her previous work expenses, less car use) but don't ask for or expect a lot of increased house-keeping type activities.

However, the contract work is worth pursuing, so that she doesn't feel like her brain is atrophying at home.  Plus, it keeps her in the job loop.  She may very well want to go back to an outside job full or part time once both are in school.

[ImCheap]

So your spouse is going to be staying home and not spending more:) I can say when my wife is off in the summer months the spending rate goes up a fair bit.

We went thru the same talks when we had kids, in the end it came down to quit working to stay home with the kids and if it does not work out what's the worse that can happen, you go out and get a job.

It worked out great for us would do it again in a heartbeat.

[MooseOutFront]

I taught part-time while our DD was little (6-12 months) and it is hard to do other things, especially things that require thinking.  A baby and toddler take a lot of effort, that is why you are paying a nanny.  If she is looking after them and trying to free-lance, she may not have much time and energy left to implement a lot of life-style changes.  Actually, let's be real, she won't have any.  Some savings should be automatic (i.e. her previous work expenses, less car use) but don't ask for or expect a lot of increased house-keeping type activities.

This is a legitimate consideration for sure.  It's probably more important for her to pursue the freelance self employment right off the bat than it will be to suddenly get great at optimizing household spending.  Obviously this falls on me as well.  I question getting rid of the cleaning service and I question in general how realistic it will be to have non work related expenses fall by much.

[MooseOutFront]

So your spouse is going to be staying home and not spending more:) I can say when my wife is off in the summer months the spending rate goes up a fair bit.

Ha!  That's what my dad will say.  This just can't happen.  The only reason we even have the option to do this is due to our current MMM style ways.  None of our peers could even make ends meet on just my income.  We CAN'T let spending increase with this change, and we both understand that.

[begood]

Taking care of a baby and a toddler is a full-time job. She may not be able to do any work from home for the first couple of years.

Have you considered keeping the nanny part time? Maybe either mornings or afternoons? Then your wife could get her free-lancing going without constant (and I mean constant) interruptions.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

My wife worked from home when the second was born and even that was way too much for her to keep working part time from home.  Would definitely say, her being at home was no cake-walk, but made our lives much better overall.  Sometimes finances should take a back seat.

However, fast forward 10 years, we have actually done very well on the FIRE front with her still being at home and substitute teaching (career change for her, but fits well with elementary-age children).  The downsides, now that she has gone back to work full time as a para just this year were:  the kids are less dependent on her now, so she was beginning to feel lost.  Having one SAHP is no fancy MMM utopia - the kids go to school, I go to work, and felt tied to the house with 2 - 3 hours per day of downtime.  She likes to be busy, some SAHP love going out for coffee, lunch, etc.  So yeah, the spending can easily begin to creep up over time. 

So, in a nutshell, in the short run, count yourself as fortunate that she even wants to do this, it's fantastic for everyone involved.  Don't pressure the part-time work and finances.  In the long run, keep an eye on if there is a good opportunity for her to get a foot back in the work world when both kids are settled in school, like when the youngest is in 1st or 2nd grade.

Good luck, them are some tough years (from what little I remember)!

[GardenFun]

DH and I did this 20 months ago.  Similar scenario - both of us are engineers and our wages were split 50/50.  Here's what happened to us (with the caveat that some of this was due to overall pre-MMM mindset):

- Grocery spending dropped $200/mo
- Out to eat dropped $150/mo
- Cut Cable $65/mo
- Went to Ooma phone and saved $25/mo
- Gas dropped $150/mo
- Vehicle miles dropped 12,000/year so car replacement budget dropped $200/mo
- Christmas/Spending budget dropped $220/mo
- Church giving dropped due to one income

This was accomplished due to the following actions:
- Time to really shop sales, whether they were grocery/clothing/Christmas, etc.  With two small children, this may be harder to do but if you have family or good friends in the area, your wife can get productive "mental health breaks".  ;-)
- Brought the need to pacify children with "stuff" under control, which significantly improved the spending/Christmas budget.
- If she isn't working as an attorney everyday, her work wardrobe will not need the same amount of cleaning/replacement. 

But here was the most unexpected benefit:
Since DH was coming home to a fairly clean house, dinner ready, and a lower-stressed wife and kids, he was able to get more sleep and become more productive at work.  So far it has resulted in two promotions and a nearly 80% replacement of the "money left after bills" we lost when I stopped working.   

[MooseOutFront]

But here was the most unexpected benefit:
Since DH was coming home to a fairly clean house, dinner ready, and a lower-stressed wife and kids, he was able to get more sleep and become more productive at work.  So far it has resulted in two promotions and a nearly 80% replacement of the "money left after bills" we lost when I stopped working.

I feel like you're on to something here.  I'm at a point at my career that, if I do well, raises and other job opportunities will really start coming in.  That may include being more focused and performing while at work and it may include being available outside of normal work hours.  I honestly think this will help me to increase my own income.  It will certainly change my mindset from "we make plenty" to "I need a raise" the day she quits. 

[MooseOutFront]

Taking care of a baby and a toddler is a full-time job. She may not be able to do any work from home for the first couple of years.

Have you considered keeping the nanny part time? Maybe either mornings or afternoons? Then your wife could get her free-lancing going without constant (and I mean constant) interruptions.

This is something we have to balance for sure.  I probably need to temper my expectations.  Our nanny will have to move on, but I have flexibility to take days off whenever, so I can help fill gaps.  If her self employment work is proving significant then we'll be very willing to make arrangements for a day or 2 of childcare here or there.

So, in a nutshell, in the short run, count yourself as fortunate that she even wants to do this, it's fantastic for everyone involved.  Don't pressure the part-time work and finances.  In the long run, keep an eye on if there is a good opportunity for her to get a foot back in the work world when both kids are settled in school, like when the youngest is in 1st or 2nd grade.

Good luck, them are some tough years (from what little I remeber)!

Thanks.  I'm already thinking I may need to chill out on my grand ideas here in the short term and let the game come to us.

[Emilyngh]

This is a tough one for our extreme early retirement plans, which called for quitting in 5.5 yrs.  We make about the same money each.  At a current savings clip of 50-55%, well you can see what losing one of us does to the savings.  We currently have 2 children that share a nanny with a 3rd and it runs us about $18k/yr.

The plan is for her (attorney) to pursue court appointments and contract  / ghost writing type work while being at home with the baby and toddler full time.  Stuff that doesn't require much of a physical presence and can be done almost entirely from home.  But we don't have a good handle on how much income to expect from this.  The part that I like is this type of self employment was the plan for her during FIRE, so she'll be way ahead of the game 5.5 yrs from now which could easily allow us to still FIRE on schedule with a smaller nest egg.

The kinda good news, financially, is that I know there is a lot of fat in our spending that we can now trim entirely.  I figure we can save $100 on groceries, $100 on lunch, $150 on eating out, $100 on gas, $120 on cleaning service, etc.  I have it figured that our variable spending drops $700 per month once she's at home with the kids, from $1900 to $1200 per month.  I welcome thoughts on this from those with experience however.  There could easily be some long term benefits from learning to do with less on this front.

So far as family life goes, I'm certain that this will be better for our family in the short term.  Everyone will be happier and I have no doubts about it on that front.  FIRE plans, assuming minimal income estimates for her, means we have $250k less in 5.5 years than we would have.  In reality she'll make more with self employment than I've estimated, it won't cost us near $250k, and we'll be set up better to both go part time whenever the time is right.

Still stings my spreadsheets though.  I know there are many other SAHPs on this board.  Maybe not many that made the same income as their spouse when they quit, but I may be surprised.

My spouse had the same income as I did when he quit to SAH with our then infant daughter.   Three years later and it's the best decision we've made together.   I was worried about the finances originally, and yet, somehow it's all worked out very well.

[falcondisruptor]

I think that you should decrease your expenses as much as possible though to start carving a savings rate out of the one income.  I think expecting your wife to be able to be the nanny and maid and cook and mom and entrepreneur immediately is probably asking a lot with two little ones at home.  But, there are TWO of you and I think you if work together you won't need to pay for these services anymore (even if you choose to because that's what will work best for your family). 

[kodokan]

But here was the most unexpected benefit:
Since DH was coming home to a fairly clean house, dinner ready, and a lower-stressed wife and kids, he was able to get more sleep and become more productive at work.  So far it has resulted in two promotions and a nearly 80% replacement of the "money left after bills" we lost when I stopped working.

Absolutely agree, and it was an unexpected pleasant surprise to us too! We were both earning approx the same back 15 years ago when I quit work to stay home with our son. For the first year, money was super tight - we all dressed from thrift stores, hardly ever used the heating, ate a lot of beans, etc. Our first break came 15 months in, when hubby got approached by a headhunter about a new job some hundreds of miles from where we were living at the time. If I'd been working too, we would never have considered it - we couldn't drop the extra salary by moving, what about MY career, etc etc? But in the circumstances, hey, sounded interesting and they'll pay our expenses for the visit, why not check it out? We piled in the car, us and the toddler, and all took a little trip to the new area where hubby had a job interview, and Son and I explored the town (a different part of England; we're an English family).

They offered him the job. An amazing job, with great prospects and a 50% uptick in salary. And it was a much nicer area than the one we were living in. Off we went!

For the next few years or so, he had terrific career success, and promotion followed pay rise followed promotion followed pay rise, etc etc. Because he had no other responsibilities than working - the house was all taken care of, shopping was done, meals were ready and waiting, bills were paid - it was easy for him to focus solely on being utterly stellar at work. He likes his profession, and reads around and self-educates a lot in his (extensive) spare time. He became the go-to, reliable guy who never needed to take a day's leave or 'work at home' because his kids were sick or had a dentist appointment, or leave a meeting because it was his turn to do the daycare pick up. He got offered the best opportunities to look shiny and progress: dinners out with clients; training courses that involved being away from home for a week or so; overseas business trips that sometimes spanned a weekend. He went all over Europe, to the US, even Asia.

(This makes it sound like his work-life balance was out of whack, but it truly wasn't. Most of the time, he had vast acres of free time compared to a dual working family: every evening was for leisure and playing with the kids, not catching up with the laundry or stepping through the door with a couple of tired, emotional kids at 6.30pm whilst frantically trying to work out what dinner might be, because the shopping didn't get done again. Weekends the same - no Saturday morning supermarket shopping, or errands like new shoes and school supplies, or hours of DIY or yard work.)

It got noticed. He was invited to apply for a job in Switzerland, and got it. Off we went again - one earner families are so mobile, with no other job to consider, or a complicated web of child care and support to unravel and replace. Several years on a Swiss salary was a fantastic boost to our family pot. Then again with the mobility: 'There's an opening in the US, and we know that you're very mobile and internationally-focused...'

So here we are, 15 years later, now in the US. I haven't worked since 1999, yet we'll still be able to quit work 15 years before the normal working world.

If you're in an industry where progress is unlimited, providing you can put in the hours/ training/ mental effort, it's well worth considering the one-worker family lifestyle once you have small kids.

[Meggslynn]

Taking care of a baby and a toddler is a full-time job. She may not be able to do any work from home for the first couple of years.

Have you considered keeping the nanny part time? Maybe either mornings or afternoons? Then your wife could get her free-lancing going without constant (and I mean constant) interruptions.

+ 1

[Little Nell]

But here was the most unexpected benefit:
Since DH was coming home to a fairly clean house, dinner ready, and a lower-stressed wife and kids, he was able to get more sleep and become more productive at work.  So far it has resulted in two promotions and a nearly 80% replacement of the "money left after bills" we lost when I stopped working.

Absolutely agree, and it was an unexpected pleasant surprise to us too! We were both earning approx the same back 15 years ago when I quit work to stay home with our son. For the first year, money was super tight - we all dressed from thrift stores, hardly ever used the heating, ate a lot of beans, etc. Our first break came 15 months in, when hubby got approached by a headhunter about a new job some hundreds of miles from where we were living at the time. If I'd been working too, we would never have considered it - we couldn't drop the extra salary by moving, what about MY career, etc etc? But in the circumstances, hey, sounded interesting and they'll pay our expenses for the visit, why not check it out? We piled in the car, us and the toddler, and all took a little trip to the new area where hubby had a job interview, and Son and I explored the town (a different part of England; we're an English family).

They offered him the job. An amazing job, with great prospects and a 50% uptick in salary. And it was a much nicer area than the one we were living in. Off we went!

For the next few years or so, he had terrific career success, and promotion followed pay rise followed promotion followed pay rise, etc etc. Because he had no other responsibilities than working - the house was all taken care of, shopping was done, meals were ready and waiting, bills were paid - it was easy for him to focus solely on being utterly stellar at work. He likes his profession, and reads around and self-educates a lot in his (extensive) spare time. He became the go-to, reliable guy who never needed to take a day's leave or 'work at home' because his kids were sick or had a dentist appointment, or leave a meeting because it was his turn to do the daycare pick up. He got offered the best opportunities to look shiny and progress: dinners out with clients; training courses that involved being away from home for a week or so; overseas business trips that sometimes spanned a weekend. He went all over Europe, to the US, even Asia.

(This makes it sound like his work-life balance was out of whack, but it truly wasn't. Most of the time, he had vast acres of free time compared to a dual working family: every evening was for leisure and playing with the kids, not catching up with the laundry or stepping through the door with a couple of tired, emotional kids at 6.30pm whilst frantically trying to work out what dinner might be, because the shopping didn't get done again. Weekends the same - no Saturday morning supermarket shopping, or errands like new shoes and school supplies, or hours of DIY or yard work.)

It got noticed. He was invited to apply for a job in Switzerland, and got it. Off we went again - one earner families are so mobile, with no other job to consider, or a complicated web of child care and support to unravel and replace. Several years on a Swiss salary was a fantastic boost to our family pot. Then again with the mobility: 'There's an opening in the US, and we know that you're very mobile and internationally-focused...'

So here we are, 15 years later, now in the US. I haven't worked since 1999, yet we'll still be able to quit work 15 years before the normal working world.

If you're in an industry where progress is unlimited, providing you can put in the hours/ training/ mental effort, it's well worth considering the one-worker family lifestyle once you have small kids.

This is why we'd all like a "wife," whether we're male or female.

[MsRichLife]

This is why we'd all like a "wife," whether we're male or female.

This reminds me of a new book that's just been launched in Australia, called 'The Wife Drought:Why women need wives, and men need lives'.

'I need a wife'

It's a common joke among women juggling work and family. But it's not actually a joke. Having a spouse who takes care of things at home is a Godsend on the domestic front. It's a potent economic asset on the work front. And it's an advantage enjoyed – even in our modern society – by vastly more men than women.

Working women are in an advanced, sustained, and chronically under-reported state of wife drought, and there is no sign of rain.

But why is the work-and-family debate always about women? Why don't men get the same flexibility that women do? In our fixation on the barriers that face women on the way into the workplace, do we forget about the barriers that – for men – still block the exits?

The Wife Drought is about women, men, family and work. Written in Annabel Crabb's inimitable style, it's full of candid and funny stories from the author's work in and around politics and the media, historical nuggets about the role of ‘The Wife' in Australia, and intriguing research about the attitudes that pulse beneath the surface of egalitarian Australia.

Crabb's call is for a ceasefire in the gender wars. Rather than a shout of rage, The Wife Drought is the thoughtful, engaging catalyst for a conversation that's long overdue.

http://www.randomhouse.com.au/books/annabel-crabb/the-wife-drought-9780857984265.aspx

[kodokan]

This is why we'd all like a "wife," whether we're male or female.

Completely! Every now and then I think it might be fun to go back to work, but then I remember that I'd only like to do it the way hubby does, where I did work, but nothing else.

Plus I think it's been good for our relationship, having clearly defined roles; we never need to bicker about who's skimping on the cleaning, or why it's my turn to cook AGAIN, or play scissor-paper-rock for who has the most important work day ahead of them when Junior has spectacularly vomited and is laying pale and wan on the sofa on a Tuesday at 8am. We both have a tendency to competitiveness, so it's a good thing for us that we're not competing in the same arenas.

I think it's very, very demanding to have two careers in a family once children turn up, especially if one of the careers is likely to involve relocation or extensive travel. One career and one job is more doable, but I personally think I would resent mine being considered 'just' the job. Ideally, I'd like two lives - one like now, being the Home Economist and running the house and kids, and another where I was part of a DINK-ie couple, forging out an exciting career path. Modern life... too many choices and awareness of opportunity cost...

[NewbieFrugalUK]

I'd just like to chime in on the realistic expectations side of things - to be at home looking after a 6 month old and a toddler full time (and it looks like you are losing the cleaning service too?) is a lot already. Expectation of how much part time work can be done in those circumstances may need to be... adjusted! :) Good luck to you both.

[GardenFun]

This is why we'd all like a "wife," whether we're male or female.

Plus I think it's been good for our relationship, having clearly defined roles; we never need to bicker about who's skimping on the cleaning, or why it's my turn to cook AGAIN, or play scissor-paper-rock for who has the most important work day ahead of them when Junior has spectacularly vomited and is laying pale and wan on the sofa on a Tuesday at 8am. We both have a tendency to competitiveness, so it's a good thing for us that we're not competing in the same arenas.

This.  It never failed - hubby would be leading a big manufacturing trial, I would have customers in-house, and we would do the stare-down of "oh, you think you are better than me?" over who was going to take care of the funkfest.  It was horribly stressful. 

[Neustache]

I've attempted part-time work at home with small kids....each and every time I had to quit because it was frustrating getting interrupted all the time.  So there's that.

But I have to agree with the others that having someone stay at home frees up the primary income earner to earn more.  It has completely worked that way for us.   

After having worked part-time away from home last year, I took some time off again and was able to work on lowering bills like insurance, internet and now I'm being really diligent on food and will eventually work on utilities.  But I wasn't able to tackle these when I was working part-time, and it was only 10 hours a week!

Given your wife is a lawyer, though, she may be able to swing everything.  I imagine law school is pretty demanding.  I probably have some undiagnosed ADD working against me in the productivity department.  But...keep your expectations low. 

I will say this, if she's currently valued at her job, she won't need to look for the part-time work, it will probably fall in her lap.  My old job kept trying to rehire me which was the two failed (although they don't think I failed) attempts at working from home.

Good luck!!  Hope your wife loves being at home...it's an adjustment!

[MooseOutFront]

Thanks for all the interesting perspectives.  I really hadn't considered what this could do for my career beyond just making it less stressful and more flexible.

Given your wife is a lawyer, though, she may be able to swing everything.  I imagine law school is pretty demanding.  I probably have some undiagnosed ADD working against me in the productivity department.  But...keep your expectations low. 

I agree with everyone saying I need to temper expectations on the part time work front, however what you say here is the truth.  She's extremely efficient with her time and has never procrastinated a day in her life.  She went through law school without me hardly seeing her study because she did it all at school in the breaks between classes.  Who does that?

[Neustache]

Since that's the case...she'll be a bored sahm without the law stuff.  She'll be fine.  :D

[golden1]

I agree that the one high earning parent, one SAHP is a great way to work things.  I have a several friends who have done this, and it works out really well for them. 

The caveat is that you need to have a very stable and strong marriage, and you need to make that a high priority, which can be hard to do in the child raising years.  I have known several couples who have done the working parent/SAHM thing long term, and since they were living very different lives, they grew apart, and the marriage ended.  The woman has been out of work 10+ years and has no marketable skills anymore, and it gets ugly because the man accuses her of freeloading etc etc....

I did a similar thing to what you and your wife are proposing.  I planned on taking 6-7 years off from paid work to take care of the kids.  My plan was to get a masters degree in that time, which I did, and that helped me get a job in a tech field relatively quickly after deciding to return to work.

Another thing - with kids, sometimes things don't go according to the "plan".  My youngest had a lot of difficulty in school, and it turned out that he has PDD-NOS, a mild form of autism spectrum disorder.  He needed more support in the early years of school, so this turned my 6 years into 8.  If you are dependant on this break only being 5.5 years, I would reconsider the plan to some extent, and make sure you build in a cushion of extra time, just in case. 

[Zette]

Taking care of a baby and a toddler is a full-time job. She may not be able to do any work from home for the first couple of years.

Have you considered keeping the nanny part time? Maybe either mornings or afternoons? Then your wife could get her free-lancing going without constant (and I mean constant) interruptions.

+1 

I worked part-time from home (20-25 hr/wk) with only one 2 year old.  A part-time nanny is a MUST if she wants to do any work of any kind when you are not home to watch the kids.  The interruptions are constant, like every 2-5 minutes.  I could not even compose a two paragraph web post without interruption when my son was that age.  While there is nap time, it is not always reliable and the kids may not always be in sync.  My daughters gave up their naps at 2.5 years old (it got to the point that it took me an hour to get them to settle down to sleep for an hour, so not worth it.)

If you can swing it, I would also vote to keep the house cleaner for a couple more years.  Better to spend that time building up her income stream than cleaning.