Author Topic: Spouses with competing resource needs  (Read 7115 times)

Skyhigh

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Spouses with competing resource needs
« on: December 30, 2014, 09:25:00 AM »

My wife loves horses. As a result we live in the country with acreage to maintain. Our six sons and I could not care less about horses. We like computers, guns, airplanes, and most other mechanical things. I believe that my spouse consumes an un-equal amount of resources to support her equine dreams. I am sure that she would not see it that way. Horses are her childhood dream and a lifelong passion for her but it is undeniable that they are punishingly expensive, mostly in where and how we must live to care for large animals.

Most of the kids and I would like to sell out the farm, horses, and move into town. How though does one make that case? She does not really ride anymore. Our life is too busy caring for children to have much personal time but her persona and world view is that she is "going" to ride. To propose taking it away would be devastating to her.

Marriage is unequal at times but we make the sacrifice to help each other to achieve goals in life. At what point is it time to try and pull it back a bit?  Where do we draw the line at where a personal goal is too much to ask of a marriage?

My brother and several friends of mine are in the same boat.

mak1277

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2014, 09:39:04 AM »
If you and the kids like guns, isn't it better to have acreage, vs. living in town?  Doesn't the acreage afford you the opportunity to shoot on your own property without having to go to a range? 


DoubleDown

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2014, 12:01:07 PM »
This is one of those big, life-goal-type issues in a relationship (similar to moving away for one spouse's job, whether to have kids, etc.). These require all kinds of thoughtful discussion and selfless deeds to resolve. I agree with you OP that owning horses and all the land and expenses that come with them is far less than ideal and a major financial setback, but I doubt you or I will be able to convince your wife of that.

If I was tackling this in my marriage, I'd voice my thoughts as non-judgmentally as possible (such as, "I support your desire to ride horses, and I want to find ways we can continue to make that happen"), and at the same time enlist her to eventually think of ways we could meet her desire/need to ride horses with my own goals to save more. That is, find a win-win solution. However, like decisions to move for one spouse's career, it could require selfless sacrifice by one of you (not necessarily her).

As one example, perhaps she would consider giving up the horses and house out in the boonies (for now) with the understanding that she could use some of the major savings to rent/ride someone else's horse whenever she feels like it (since that cost would still be less than keeping your own). As your savings compound over a few short intervening years, you'll be wealthy, kids will be grown, and you could use your substantially larger wealth to buy the house out in the country with horses, at a time when you will no longer have to commute to work and she can actually have the time to enjoy them. This particular solution doesn't matter, it's just an example of something the two of you might come up with on your own through some thoughtful and collaborative discussion (and not her perceiving you are devaluing her needs or judging).

Good luck!

Noodle

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2014, 12:06:48 PM »
Instead of starting with what you would like your wife to give up (the horses and acreage, expensive in time and money), it might be more fruitful to start by talking about what you would like to have for your family that you currently do not...more time to spend with the kids on projects, early retirement (that the horse costs are interfering with), whatever. Then listen and speak with an open mind about the various solutions that could meet more of everyone's needs...for instance, fewer horses, live in town but budget to board a horse,  sell the current horses but agree to put money in savings to buy another horse when children are older, etc. (I am not a horse person myself, so don't know the appropriate options). If your wife won't at least open discussion, then you have a bigger problem.

netskyblue

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2014, 12:08:00 PM »
I'm not your wife, and I'm not that into horses, but if my husband wanted me to leave my HOME without an amazingly good reason, I'd tell HIM to go get a new home, and live there!  If you guys aren't in debt up to your eyeballs or struggling to put food on the table, I'd be surprised if there's anything you can say that will make her want to leave.

Living the lifestyle she wants vs not (even if FI) may not be much of a choice.  I'm married and I'll still say that no man is worth giving up the life I want.  If your life goals are that different, you may just not belong together.  Love doesn't always make 2 people compatible partners.

Zamboni

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2014, 12:23:04 PM »
I will chime to say that the fact that the boys are on your side, as you implied, has nothing to do with it and will be seen as divisive if you bring that up.

How many horses are there?

I went through a similar type of thing with an ex-spouse, a house, and a country club membership.  We could not really afford that lifestyle and were in debt up to our eyeballs so he could live his "dream life."  I wanted to move to a still nice but much more affordable house but he would not hear of it even when he was unemployed for nearly a year.  The fact that he never even played golf a single time that last couple of years we were together didn't seem to sway him that he should let that membership go. 

In the end he chose his dream house over his nuclear family and I went my separate way, although I'm sure he'd tell another version of the story.  He still lives there several years later (5000+ sq ft for one person) even though people have offered to buy it at a profit.  He still complains that he has a cash flow problem nearly every time I see him and laments that he can't afford the routine maintenance.  He still doesn't actually golf.  I just reverted to nodding long ago.  People can be really irrational about these things. 

Probably your wife loves these horses like they are family and will be completely irrational at any suggestion that they be sold.  If you push the issue without tremendous delicacy, brace yourself for the possibility that she will choose the lifestyle over you.  I would suggest couples counseling to help you have this discussion with her.

ShortInSeattle

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2014, 12:29:32 PM »
I think about these kinds of challenges in the context of long term goals.

Let's say that you and the wife want to retire in X years. Certain things add to the timeline. Certain things speed up the timeline.  So once you've got the same long term goals, you weigh the pros and cons of various choices.

"If we move into town, we can retire 3 years sooner, but it would mean giving X and Y up. What do you think? Are you willing to work for 3 years to keep X and Y, or would you rather retire sooner?"

1. Establish shared goals.
2. Talk about ways to get there.
3. Talk about pros and cons of various choices, but be sure to prioritize each other's happiness. Either you both "win" or no one does.

For example, my SO has a hobby that costs 1.5k per year. I have zero interest in it, but I know it's important to him so it is a part of our FIRE budget and we're saving for it. So proposals... then discussion... then you see what makes sense....

It's a process. Do you two have some shared goals as a starting place?

CommonCents

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2014, 12:33:05 PM »
Eeeks, 6 boys?  That's a lot.  Be sensitive for the fact that she may not want to live in the more masculine oriented world that you describe ("computers, guns, airplanes, and most other mechanical things").  I'm not a ruffles and lace person, but even I might start decorating/living that way to not feel overwhelmed by the masculinity in the house.

Villanelle

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2014, 12:34:38 PM »
What is the compromise?  What you you offer that gets each of you at least part of what you want?  Can you move somewhat closer to an urban area, while staying close enough to horse country that she can still ride?  Can you pay for someone else to stable and care for a horse or two, while you sell the rest (no idea how many horses she currently has)?  Can you find a less rural area that still allows horses (or at least a horse)?

Present it showing what positives there are for both of you, and also show that you know what is important to her and that you are trying to come up with ways to allow her to still have some of what she values so much. 

James

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2014, 12:40:30 PM »
Some great ideas mentioned already.

I agree that the children aren't much of a factor in what they want, this is between you and your spouse, I wouldn't invoke them unless she does, and even then minimally.

I think the key is to look at this as a process, not something any conversation will resolve. If you are looking at moving into town, start by working on ways to make her relationship with the horses just as good while living in town. Having horses at a stable is an idea, even if it cost as much or even more in the short term, since it moves you in the right direction toward your goals. But there is likely a lot more to the issue than just the horses, it may be that the "country life" is just as important to her than the horses, and the horses are just one small factor tying her to the location. Start by working to understand her goals and where she wants to be, as well as sharing your goals. Make sure you both know it isn't about figuring out a solution to start with, just getting everything out on the table.

MooseOutFront

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2014, 12:41:46 PM »
Horses are a tough one.  Having a rural background myself, my parents always guided me away from the horse lovers of the opposite sex.  Having FIRE dreams while living with one could cause lots of angst.  Good luck.

CheapskateWife

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2014, 12:48:29 PM »
Ooof...DH and I are here....his passion is cars.  Which might disqualify us for MMM cult membership, so please keep this on the down low.

Since we started dialing in the expenses maxing out TSP's and ROTH IRA's, DH has decided its time to pursue his passion, and frankly it pissed me off.  Here I am wearing goodwill clothes (my idea), giving up Starbucks (my idea), and alcohol (my idea) just so he could spend our future on a damn 71 GTO. 

I had to just accept that the dream of FIRE is one we share, but there are certain ideals he just doesn't want to give up in order to get there.  In order to preserve my sanity, and his manhood, I moved that expense out of our family budget and established an account with a monthly allotment for him to manage as relates to the project.  So whether he starts flipping cars or just sinking money into the rust bucket (do you get just how much I hate this car?) its his business.  Not mine. 

Is it possible that you could do the same for your family?

He wants me to do the same for myself; he says to be fair, but I think there might be some guilt he is attempting to assuage, but that's on him.  I just can't set up another expense account just so I can spend to match his hobby. 


Zamboni

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2014, 12:54:25 PM »
^Maybe set up an account "just for you" with Vanguard?  You don't have to spend the money for it to make you happy.  Besides, maybe someday and old friend will invite you on a "girls only" vacation and you'll be happy to have some money set aside that has only your name on it.

CheapskateWife

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2014, 12:58:18 PM »
Thanks Zamboni,  I suppose its a possibility, but since I manage our finances anyway I kind of have carte blanche to do whatever the hell I want.  He just trusts me that much, and for that I can truly count myself blessed...rust bucket aside :)


Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2014, 01:18:40 PM »
This isn't helpful, but it reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend from college who was about 8 years my senior. We worked together at a farm and garden store. One day I pointed out a couple of shapely ladies in tight equestrian gear. 

He barely glanced over before saying, "You know what they say about girls who love horses?"
"What?"
"They're fucking crazy."

MooseOutFront

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2014, 01:26:03 PM »
haha.  A much less delicate way to say it, but yes, that is what they say.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 08:59:55 PM by MooseOutFront »

Janie

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2014, 05:07:26 PM »
I wonder what part OP played when the property and horses were acquired. Very odd indeed to have left this unaddressed when the decisions were being made.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2014, 05:18:11 PM »
If I had 6 sons (or 6 children of any combination) I would need an outside interest to stay sane.  Mind you, my "rule of thumb" was just one of anything - one husband, one child, one cat, one dog, one paid job.

Don't push too hard - I know of one marriage that broke up over this - she kept the horse, ditched the husband.  Seriously, not kidding.

Zamboni

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2014, 07:14:24 PM »
^I know of a situation where a friend's wife picked the horse over him too.  People take these horses seriously!  I had one friend who married into a relationship with a wife and her horse, horse trailer and truck, and two Welsh corgies (this is how he described his marriage.)  In addition to kvetching about how much the horse cost to maintain, he routinely lamented that his wife would get home and go take care of the horse before checking in to see him.  Clearly it hurt his feelings a little bit.

SkyHigh, you must be feeling a lot of pressure.  You haven't said so, but I get the impression that you are the primary breadwinner.  You have a large family, a farm with horses, and aging parents who are about to run out of money suggesting that they will move in with you (if I remember correctly from another thread.)  That is tons of responsibility.  It's easy to understand why you want to cut something and simplify your life.  Can you communicate how you are feeling overwhelmed to your wife without specifying that the horses and big house in the country are the weak link in the chain?

imustachemystash

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2014, 07:26:03 PM »
She had to raise SIX boys!  Let her have her horses.

Apples

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2014, 08:02:26 AM »
This isn't helpful, but it reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend from college who was about 8 years my senior. We worked together at a farm and garden store. One day I pointed out a couple of shapely ladies in tight equestrian gear. 

He barely glanced over before saying, "You know what they say about girls who love horses?"
"What?"
"They're fucking crazy."

+1  This is a well known fact in rural areas.  Those girls are crazy and money falls through their fingers.  There are exceptions out there, but in my experience this is generally true.

caliq

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2015, 04:22:15 AM »
Hi, I've been lurking and reading these forums for awhile but just literally made an account so I could share my thoughts on this -- because I'm one of those "crazy horse girls" myself :D  (Yes, we all know about that rumor and find it pretty funny!)

It's true that horses can be prohibitively expensive, especially in certain parts of the country.  I must be one of the less crazy horse girls because I recently passed up an opportunity to spend $20k on the most amazing horse I've ever ridden (who later sold to a very wealthy family for $50k), not because we didn't have the cash, but because the upkeep costs would have been a $1500/month budget hit.  That's more than my mortgage!!! I took a voluntary break from riding instead.  Key word: VOLUNTARY.  I was really upset at losing the horse of my dreams, honestly, and even being in the barn was pretty heartbreaking.  However, if my husband had pushed for it, he would have had hell to pay.  I don't think I would have left him, but we are young and just got married and haven't raised SIX boys!

My guess is that if you can afford to keep multiple horses on your own property, at least if you keep them in quality conditions, you live in a lower cost of living area.  This also probably means that horse board is cheaper in your area.  My suggestion is that you do some research on board prices at good barns with riding arenas (and indoor arenas, if you live in an area where one is required for winter riding).  Compare those costs to the cost of keeping the horses at home, the bigger mortgage, bigger transportation expenses, etc.  If/when you go to your wife, it might be helpful to have this information already.  Just don't ambush her like "We would save $500 a month if you'd only give up your dream lifestyle and only hobby!" because that's not going to end well.


If she's not riding, but says she wants to and has ridable horses at home, there's a reason.  She's likely either overwhelmed with the daily care of the horses and other aspects of life or afraid to get back on after not riding for a long time.  Both of these situations will be helped by keeping one or possibly two of the safest/sanest/most ridable horses at a boarding barn where all she has to do is show up, brush, tack, ride.  Honestly one horse is all most people with full time jobs and kids can handle, especially if they want to improve or even maintain the quality of their riding.  It is a sport, and it does take practice -- 3+ good longish rides a week, at least in my discipline and level. 

EDIT: If anxiety/fear about getting back in the saddle is a factor, you should also make sure to pick a boarding barn with a good instructor/trainer and solid lesson horses that she could start out on, especially if it's likely that her  horses will need some retraining before she can feel confident on them.  A good trainer can do wonders for a rider, not only in skill level but in making you actually want to ride.

Perhaps you can approach it that way -- you want to see her actually enjoy her hobby, not just view it as another chore.  The goal should be to simplify both of your lives to a point where you can both enjoy the things you want to enjoy, and if keeping horses at home is just adding another layer of stress and chores, then maybe she could think about paying someone else to do the chores part of it so that she can simply have fun and enjoy her hobby. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 04:25:47 AM by caliq »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Spouses with competing resource needs
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2015, 05:53:15 AM »
Given the range of thoughts on here, it is clear we don't really have enough information to contribute.  Why isn't she riding?  Out of practice or other actual horse-related reasons as caliq suggested?  Or just not enough time?  If Mr. Skyhigh is super busy making enough money to support 6 (!!!) boys, is Mrs. Skyhigh just too busy?  And if the boys are so into electronics, are they not helping with home maintenance?  They should be - it appalled me when I went away to university and found the boys had no idea of how to maintain themselves - no cooking, cleaning or laundry skills.  And if Mr. Skyhigh is letting them all live off her labour, instead of realizing a family is in some ways like a commune (everyone pitches in to the level of their potential), then there need to be some big discussions in that family, and not just about the horses.