Author Topic: Solar in the North?  (Read 4442 times)

pstu24

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Solar in the North?
« on: May 28, 2017, 08:35:16 PM »
I am extremely excited about the future of solar,  And between the new solar roofs by Elon Musk, and the costs being driven down in general, I personally would make the investment toastoday if not for the fact that I live up north. I am around the great lakes, and while we do get a few months of sunshine (it was sunny and almost 80 degrees today!) We also get typical snowfall anywhere from late October until late March and sometimes into April.

So the question is, anyone else have any advice for pursuing solar power while not getting many sunny days? I am very interested but don't know how to cut energy bills.

nereo

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 05:35:14 PM »
SUnlight is a function of latitude, and "around the great lakes" means you're probably somewhere between 42-45ºN depending on where, exactly.

The challenge you'll face is that during the cold winters you'll get the least amount of sunlight.  On the plus side, during the hot summers you'll get the most (when you might use air conditioning extensively).

forum member Sol has put out a rather awesome thread on his experiences in the PNW - I think he's somewhere around 48ºN, so much further to the north than you.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/solar-panel-installation/

Also note that the Germany has been a world leader in solar, and much of Germany is further north than Vancouver, Canada.

tl/dr: you can get a ton of energy during the summer months, not as much in the winter. Whether its worth it to you depends on your energy bills, monthly usage (e.g. heat vs. air conditioning) etc.

Syonyk

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 08:39:29 PM »
Is your goal to cut energy bills, or to install solar?  It's entirely possible that the second will not lead to the first if you have a lot of snow.

If you wanted to cut energy bills, I'd look at solar thermal for hot water heating (that basically eliminates your hot water heating cost in the spring/summer/fall, and should reduce it some in the winter), and then look at a ground source heat pump - they can work into quite cold climates, quite efficiently.

If you do have solar panels, having some mounted vertically and south facing would be useful - they won't get covered in snow, but you won't get as much production out of them in the summer.

NESailor

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2017, 06:37:35 AM »
I'm at latitude 44 east of the great lakes and know quite a few folks who've installed panels.  The most efficient arrays are on rotating bases that track the sun throughout the day.  Our utility allows (or allowed?) net metering so together with all the incentives one could save some money.  I think a lot of the people I know would have done it anyway...as may we eventually.

Lucky Penny Acres

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2017, 06:47:40 AM »
I have solar panels in the central New York state area - we get an average of around 120 inches of snow per year for reference. Production is lower in the winter but the snow usually melts off the panels within a couple days after each snow storm - even less if you broom the heavy snow off.

The first step is to see where you can cut your energy usage. Many contractors near you should provide you with a free home energy audit - this usually involves a blower door test and use of a thermal imaging camera. It can highlight air leaks from your home where you may need to add insulation. A well-insulated home costs less to heat and cool and insulation has a faster pay back than solar panels.

For solar, you need to check the specific incentives for your state and how the excess power is billed. In New York state, for example, there was the 30% federal tax credit plus an additional 25% state level tax credit (up to a max of $5,000) - so depending on the size of your solar panel installation and your tax situation, this could be ~55% off the top line price in NY.  Also, New York requires utilities to offer net metering, so any excess power generated during a particular month (such as the summer) rolls forward to future months with a once per year reset date.  This means you can generate the power you need for the winter over the summer.  In addition to state incentives, there are also sometimes more local incentives or programs. Our county had special group buying discounts periodically that gave extra rebates if you bought your panels at the same time as others in the county.

Once you know what state incentives there are, you should get estimates from many different installers - they should be able to provide estimates about how much power different panel set-ups would generate. Depending on space, you may be able to offset your entire annual electric usage.

MasterStache

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2017, 06:54:52 AM »
If you mount the panels in an easily accessible location, you can clean the snow off of them. I used to climb up on our roof and clean several inches of snow off every time it snowed. Pretty easy especially if they are mounted at an angle.

homestead neohio

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2017, 08:11:23 AM »
Cleveland area and we have solar PV on a southwest-facing roof.

It is not cheaper than electricity from fossil fuels plants in my area, but our goal was not to buy the cheapest electricity, it was to buy the cleanest.  Still grid-tied here, so we buy some fossil fuel electricity in the winter and sell solar electricity in the summer.  Every KW you produce is a KW that does not come from a fossil fuel plant.

Reduce your electricity usage and a system to replace your usage will be cheaper.

It is not as efficient as a system in a desert, but a local installer knows how to size a system to your area.  Get as many quotes/designs as you can, then decide if it is worth it to you.  The 30% federal tax credit is still in effect.

I'm not sure how affordable Tesla solar roofs will be compared to an asphalt roof and standard panels.  The main benefit I see is no roof penetrations to mount the solar as it is integrated in the roofing material.  Tesla solar roof price comparison bandied about is roughly the same cost as a traditional roof is in place of traditional slate or clay tile roofs.  Asphalt roofs are about 1/3rd the cost of tile and 1/4 the cost of natural slate.  This is something I plan to track for an organization I am involved with that will need a large roof in the next 2-3 years. 

I would not want to be one of the first tesla solar roofs in my area.  There will install issues.  PV folks are not used to installing roofing systems, and roofing folks don't know much about PV systems.  These two groups don't really work together on existing projects, they do their own things.

nereo

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2017, 08:32:30 AM »
one note about Tesla roofs: it's a new product that is being slowly rolled out starting in California (Tesla's base). It isn't even available in the great-lakes region yet AFAIK.
As indicated economically Tesla roofs only make sense if you are going to redo your roof with slate/tile (vs cheaper asphalt or standing-seam metal). It's more about asthetics than the economic bottom line.

dignam

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2017, 08:56:36 AM »
A relative has deployed solar panels to power their cabin (about 47*N in great lakes region deep in the woods).  It's completely off the grid and provides plenty of power.  Winter is trickier with the low sun angle and high trees, but there are no issues the rest of the year.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 09:02:16 AM »
My neighbour, living at 58 degrees north, is planning to install solar panels on his roof. They are supposed to be extra good for cold climate. He recogns that he will profit from them even from March. And we have some snow in March and April as well.

We are planning to go for a mountain warmth pump instead.

JumpInTheFIRE

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2017, 11:16:42 AM »
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pstu24

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2017, 11:26:39 AM »
Thanks all for the help! I came back to this as I am about 42.5N and in a major-snowfall-city. It has been top 5 in the US over the last couple of years (and I believe was first once or twice). So my concern is just with lake effect snow AND with 3-4 months of gray sky typically, how much sun I will get.

That being said - AWESOME! Thanks all for the help, and this is something I will continue to look into!

NaturallyHappier

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2017, 07:16:11 PM »
I have pole mounted solar arrays in PA. I tilt the arrays to 30 degrees from vertical in the winter to get the south sun.  Snow just slides right off after a snowfall.  They usually clear within 2 hours after the snowfall ends.

Don't go for trackers.  They are a item.  Just add a couple more panels.

powskier

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Re: Solar in the North?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2017, 11:20:15 PM »
I'm in Alaska, and the thing that people forget is that by Febuary, with snow on the ground you get a lot of extra light reflected. The whole world gets the same amount of sun in theory, it's just that the farther North you go the more it is concentrated in the summer.
If you are net metering as opposed to messing with batteries it all comes out the same.