Author Topic: Software going politically correct  (Read 22173 times)

MrsPennyPincher

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Software going politically correct
« on: June 24, 2020, 04:46:39 PM »
So... my company informed everyone today that we are to remove offensive terms from our codebase.
Offensive terms are : whitelist/blacklist, master/slave and white hat/black hat. I kid you not, that’s the work that we will have to do. When that was announced, no one said a word and neither did I, given how I am not at FI yet. So no clue what my colleagues think of it, but wanted to bring it to this forum. Am I the only one to think that is ridiculous and a disturbing trend?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 11:06:58 AM by MrsPennyPincher »

ixtap

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2020, 04:59:04 PM »
Considering that black book and blacklist started being used at the same time that the slave trade got going, and master/slave has always been a term that bothers me, I am for it. This is one of those things that seems like a grand gesture, but can actually make a difference for the coders of the future!

If I could have figured out a way to configure my radar without listing it as a slave to my chartplotter, I would have. That really disturbed me.

But then, I also have issues with the way Python uses the word 'token,' as well as a whole list of other programming words. DH tries to justify them, then turn around and come up with 'better' examples of poor wording, but he sucks at that game. Even I can explain why for most of the ones he chooses.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 05:00:45 PM by ixtap »

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2020, 05:03:25 PM »
So... my company informed everyone today that we are to remove offensive terms from our codebase.
Offensive terms are : whitelist/blacklist, master/slave and white hat/black hat. I kid you not, that’s the work that we will have to do. When that was announced, no one said a word and neither did I, given how I am not at FI yet. So no clue what my colleagues think of it, but wanted to bring it to this forum. Am I the only one to think that is ridiculous and a disturbing trend?



I am  an unabashed  free-speech absolutist  so yes I do share your concern.


ixtap

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2020, 05:08:54 PM »
So... my company informed everyone today that we are to remove offensive terms from our codebase.
Offensive terms are : whitelist/blacklist, master/slave and white hat/black hat. I kid you not, that’s the work that we will have to do. When that was announced, no one said a word and neither did I, given how I am not at FI yet. So no clue what my colleagues think of it, but wanted to bring it to this forum. Am I the only one to think that is ridiculous and a disturbing trend?



I am  an unabashed  free-speech absolutist  so yes I do share your concern.

Coding has nothing to do with free speech: you are constantly forced to use words in unnatural ways.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2020, 05:21:10 PM »
Using blacklist/whitelist to refer to blocked/permitted is exclusionary language, originally by design, then by cultural inertia. There is no reason to continue it. Continuing to associate mal-intent with a colour is as dumb as privileging right-handedness over left-handedness. We can do better.

There goes maladroit.

solon

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2020, 05:31:13 PM »
What did they give you as replacement words, @MrsPennyPincher?

MrsPennyPincher

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2020, 05:39:47 PM »
@solon - they didn’t - lol. Guess someone out there is still working on it!

solon

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2020, 05:41:30 PM »
The concept of a list of acceptable options, and a list of unacceptable options, is an important concept. I hope they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

MilesTeg

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2020, 05:43:12 PM »
So... my company informed everyone today that we are to remove offensive terms from our codebase.
Offensive terms are : whitelist/blacklist, master/slave and white hat/black hat. I kid you not, that’s the work that we will have to do. When that was announced, no one said a word and neither did I, given how I am not at FI yet. So no clue what my colleagues think of it, but wanted to bring it to this forum. Am I the only one to think that is ridiculous and a disturbing trend?



I am  an unabashed  free-speech absolutist  so yes I do share your concern.

This... has nothing to do with free speech. It's an employer telling employees to do something.

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2020, 05:45:58 PM »
Am I the only one to think that is ridiculous and a disturbing trend?

Why is it ridiculous to stop referring to a master/slave relationship? Is there any situation where it's a nice thing to be called a slave? Let's do away with outdated terminology and move forward.

Many companies, groups and languages are switching terminology, like Python and GitHub:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8x7akv/masterslave-terminology-was-removed-from-python-programming-language

https://www.zdnet.com/article/github-to-replace-master-with-alternative-term-to-avoid-slavery-references/

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me:

Quote
This includes dropping terms like "master" and "slave" for alternatives like "main/default/primary" and "secondary;" but also terms like "blacklist" and "whitelist" for "allow list" and "deny/exclude list."

GuitarStv

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2020, 05:56:07 PM »
Some of these seem a bit odd to me.

I'm not familiar with the etymology of about whitelist/blacklist.  White hat/black hat is a reference to old cowboy westerns though, where the good guy usually wore a white hat and the bad guy a black one.  Nothing to do with race.

There have been white, Indian, Chinese, Arab, and many more slaves throughout history too, have there not?  I've never thought 'Oh, this drive is slaved to that one.  It must be black!'

At first glance these seem like weird/nonsensical things to get upset about, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2020, 06:07:04 PM »
I can see how master/slave could be offensive, and they're not great terms to begin with. I've written a lot of distributed systems and find the primary/leader/authoritative language much more telling of what's actually going on. So yeah fine, get rid of it, who cares.

With whitelist/blacklist I'm starting to think you might have a chip on your shoulder. These are very common terms that exist in multiple natural languages.

But "tokens", seriously? What are you smoking?


Tasse

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2020, 06:28:59 PM »
At first glance these seem like weird/nonsensical things to get upset about, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

I couldn't explain to you what is offensive about all of these terms, but what seems nonsensical to me is making a stink about a simple change in terminology. If anything, the new alternatives are clearer. How is switching going to hurt anyone? This isn't the first boring task that's ever been assigned and it won't be the last.

PDXTabs

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2020, 06:41:27 PM »
Ours too, but not white/black hat. Also, we're still allowed to use acronyms like MOSI and MISO.

For master/slave I'm totally onboard. I'm less excited about whitelist/blacklist.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 06:48:33 PM by PDXTabs »

Turnbull

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2020, 06:42:55 PM »
What do we have to start calling the master cylinder and slave cylinder when we're working on our cars now?

PDXTabs

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2020, 06:43:57 PM »
I'm not familiar with the etymology of about whitelist/blacklist.  White hat/black hat is a reference to old cowboy westerns though, where the good guy usually wore a white hat and the bad guy a black one.  Nothing to do with race.

This checks out.

PDXTabs

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2020, 06:46:13 PM »
What do we have to start calling the master cylinder and slave cylinder when we're working on our cars now?

We have some approved terms in my organization, but my favorite would be the primary cylinder and the secondary cylinder.

MrsPennyPincher

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2020, 06:48:08 PM »
I think this “cleaning up” of terminology is going down a very slippery slope.
Forget about software... While at it - shall we also prohibit Black Monday? Is Black Friday still allowed? And how about “yellow press”?

ixtap

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2020, 06:53:32 PM »
I'm not familiar with the etymology of about whitelist/blacklist.  White hat/black hat is a reference to old cowboy westerns though, where the good guy usually wore a white hat and the bad guy a black one.  Nothing to do with race.

This checks out.

Psst, there were already racial tinges to the terms at that time, stemming from centuries of history. In medieval times, the European terms were predominantly light and dark, or expressed in terms of value, such as  the gilded haloes on saints. Even the idea of white purity is a modern construction, with the white wedding dress specifically stemming from Victorian times.

Sure, black and white hats made sense, especially in black and white movies, but they made sense in part due to centuries of racial crap between White Europeans and everyone else that they considered inferior.

Master and slave are offensive above and beyond racial issues and we still have sex slaves, probably of every race. Try control cylinder vs action cylinders.

ChickenStash

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2020, 06:56:03 PM »
I'd be happy with losing the term master/slave in software and hardware. I've always found them to be imprecise and ambiguous in common usage. I prefer active/passive, primary/secondary, etc. as they tend to be more descriptive of whats actually happening.

Whitelist/blacklist, token, and the like... That's tough. I'd have to see some research that says those came about for racist purposes, not just that some racist somewhere tried to appropriate the terms.

But, their company, their rules.

ixtap

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2020, 06:58:30 PM »
I'd be happy with losing the term master/slave in software and hardware. I've always found them to be imprecise and ambiguous in common usage. I prefer active/passive, primary/secondary, etc. as they tend to be more descriptive of whats actually happening.

Whitelist/blacklist, token, and the like... That's tough. I'd have to see some research that says those came about for racist purposes, not just that some racist somewhere tried to appropriate the terms.

But, their company, their rules.

While token does now have racist connotations, that was explicitly brought up as a poor use of the English language when creating programming languages, not as an example of something that needs to change for social reasons.

Sibley

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2020, 07:03:06 PM »
I think this “cleaning up” of terminology is going down a very slippery slope.
Forget about software... While at it - shall we also prohibit Black Monday? Is Black Friday still allowed? And how about “yellow press”?

As far as I know, Black Monday refers to a specific historical event, preceding the Great Depression. We would not change the name of a historical event.

Black Friday I think should go away anyway - you really don't need to promote consumption to such an extent that people literally get trampled in the stores. As for yellow press, I'm not familiar the source, but if it's related to dissing Chinese people, then yes, it should go away.

Rather than thinking of it as a slippery slope, maybe you should consider how thoroughly racism, xenophobia, and other prejudices have been embedded into our language. Much like how chivalry is based on a mythical ideal behavior (which NEVER EXISTED) which was dependent on the control and virtual enslavement of women. Can you really say that we're not sexist, when it's literally considered rude for a man to let a woman open a door?

ender

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2020, 07:06:27 PM »
I can see how master/slave could be offensive, and they're not great terms to begin with. I've written a lot of distributed systems and find the primary/leader/authoritative language much more telling of what's actually going on. So yeah fine, get rid of it, who cares.

+1

I agree with this entirely.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2020, 07:35:22 PM »
I like the white/blacklist change. They're useless. They don't tell you *what*. hosts.allow, hosts.deny all the way, like unixes.

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2020, 07:37:01 PM »
I think this “cleaning up” of terminology is going down a very slippery slope.
Forget about software... While at it - shall we also prohibit Black Monday? Is Black Friday still allowed? And how about “yellow press”?

Huh? No, unless your company is also talking about prohibiting any of these things, then why would you even be remotely worried about them? Stick with reality, not "what if we go totally off the rails and..."

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2020, 08:10:13 PM »
Blacklisting the word "blacklist"-- is it Orwellian, Kafkaesque, or quixotic? Every single dumb thing like this sucks the air out of the room and makes it harder for meaningful things to happen.

American GenX

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2020, 08:10:32 PM »
So... my company informed everyone today that we are to remove offensive terms from our codebase.
Offensive terms are : whitelist/blacklist, master/slave and white hat/black hat. I kid you not, that’s the work that we will have to do. When that was announced, no one said a word and neither did I, given how I am not at FI yet. So no clue what my colleagues think of it, but wanted to bring it to this forum. Am I the only one to think that is ridiculous and a disturbing trend?

I am  an unabashed  free-speech absolutist  so yes I do share your concern.

I agree with both of you.  It's a crazy world out there.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2020, 08:24:59 PM »
I think this “cleaning up” of terminology is going down a very slippery slope.
Forget about software... While at it - shall we also prohibit Black Monday? Is Black Friday still allowed? And how about “yellow press”?

Would Black Friday be okay since it has positive associations with businesses becoming profitable? Of course, Native Americans might take issue with the color commonly used to represent financial loss.

undercover

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2020, 08:30:00 PM »
At first I was a little surprised because not once did I ever really think about the words being racially charged...like it’s a possibility that never even entered my mind.

BUT, who cares at the end of the day...as long as there are apt replacement words to describe the situation then it doesn’t matter. And there are of course. Allowed/denied is a simple replacement to whitelist/blacklist which never made too much sense anyway.

I know parent/child is usually to do with stuff like nested elements but would that suffice as a replacement to master/slave?

Tyler durden

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2020, 08:45:27 PM »
You could never confuse me for a coder but I can sure turn a wrench.

Cars have this terminology as well. Master cylinder and slave cylinder. 99% of the time these terms are used for your breaking system. The other 1% is for your transmission.

For what they do the terms work ... wouldn’t take much creativity to replace them though.

Wrenchturner

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2020, 08:48:47 PM »
I think this “cleaning up” of terminology is going down a very slippery slope.
Forget about software... While at it - shall we also prohibit Black Monday? Is Black Friday still allowed? And how about “yellow press”?

I don't object to the changes in the original post as long as they are replaced with something coherent.

But as you point out, we will run into more difficult areas.  How about the word "dark"?  At some point we will have to separate "opacity" from an implication of sentiments surrounding ethnicity.  Since "dark" refers to opacity, and that has relevance with--say--high melanin content or energy that we know little about(dark energy).

Consider--dark ages and enlightenment... 

My point is--dark skin is real but it doesn't make you evil, for instance.  But sometimes dark things are evil!  It's a linguistic problem!

Don't even get me started on translucent caulking...

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2020, 09:39:48 PM »
You could never confuse me for a coder but I can sure turn a wrench.

Cars have this terminology as well. Master cylinder and slave cylinder. 99% of the time these terms are used for your breaking system. The other 1% is for your transmission.

For what they do the terms work ... wouldn’t take much creativity to replace them though.

50% used for brake system, 49% clutch, 1% transmission

fuzzy math

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2020, 10:32:52 PM »
My grammar editor on some dumb work self assessment platform flagged “old” as offensive and tried to change it to experienced. I can’t talk about needing to update the experienced process to a new one. It makes no sense. I’m also concerned about the apparent large portion of employees who are using this self assessment tool to bitch about colleagues. Why else would that be there?

seattlecyclone

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2020, 12:10:48 AM »
Software engineering as a profession is pretty notorious for being less inclusive that it could and should be. When a person of color in your organization speaks up and says that looking at "masters" and "slaves" in their code every day makes them uncomfortable, there are two ways to react. You can either say "you know what, I've never thought of it that way before, and so your complaint is clearly nonsense," or you can say "you know what, I've never thought of it that way before, and I may not fully understand your point, but I value you as a colleague and am willing to put in a bit of work to change to a nomenclature we can all feel good about." Which one you choose speaks volumes about your organization.

2Cent

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2020, 04:15:06 AM »
I hate this so much. Not because I'm so attached to specific terms, but because it feels so manipulative. Like 1984 new speak where the language is purged so that people will not be able to express or even think certain concepts.

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2020, 04:49:19 AM »
I'm all for changing this stuff.  Just like I'm for talking about firefighters rather than firemen, for example.

Are any of these things individually a big deal?  Probably not.  But changing them is a pain in a bum for a short period of time and then leaves us with language that is more inclusive and allows everybody in society to function to their best potential without being constantly confronted by/surrounded by the "drip drip drip" of language that excludes them or minimises painful parts of our history. It's an investment in a better future. 

I used to think this was all a bit silly and overdone too, and then I read some more on linguistics, and thought more about how this language permeates every bit of our language and society, and came to the view that it's not OK, and we should work to change it.

Which means when my 6yo says "I'm not your slave!" she now gets a little lecture on what slavery actually is and why her situation is nothing like it (lucky her!)

It's not about freedom of speech, or being told what you can and can't do.  If you want to refer to a relationship as "master-slave" nobody can stop you, even if many people will find it upsetting or inappropriate to apply it to settings that are not in fact slavery.  But our institutionalised/default language should be inclusive, and we shouldn't let a small investment in overcoming what history has left us with put us off changing things for the better.


simmias

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2020, 04:57:56 AM »
I hate this so much. Not because I'm so attached to specific terms, but because it feels so manipulative. Like 1984 new speak where the language is purged so that people will not be able to express or even think certain concepts.
Which concepts are you now unable to express? Every example in the OP actually can be replaced with language that makes the concept being expressed clearer.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2020, 05:05:47 AM »
I'd prefer to work somewhere with more inclusive language. I prefer to buy products from companies that use inclusive language, even if I never see it as an end-user.

Regardless of the merits, it sounds like your company is saying that this is the direction they are moving in. They may have considered that this will cause some people to feel less favorably about the company and leave, while others will feel more favorably about the company and join or stay.

Although I don't share your concern over this, I think you should consider this as a real warning sign (for you) and look for work elsewhere. This company is changing and you don't like the direction of the changes. Where does it end? Maybe adding a note on your cover letter or LinkedIn profile about why you left will help you find a better fit.

nereo

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2020, 05:08:47 AM »
I’ve never been comfortable with a lot of the coding terminology, and I’m glad that it’s being re-thought.
Not only does “Slave/Master” uncomfortably tie it to some of our worst human institutions, but In coding the terms suffer from ambiguity (i.e. the “master” is often not in control of the “slave” - the “slave” can be independent of the “master”). 

Main and Branch are two terms our group has  gravitated towards (no coincidence it’s what ‘Git’ now uses). Less ambiguous, more in line with what their functions actually are.

Many of the objections here fall victim to the slippery-slope fallacy.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2020, 05:11:49 AM »
Big endian and little endian are also non PC since they sort of make fun of Lilliputians and Blefuscuians

Tyler durden

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2020, 05:15:24 AM »
You could never confuse me for a coder but I can sure turn a wrench.

Cars have this terminology as well. Master cylinder and slave cylinder. 99% of the time these terms are used for your breaking system. The other 1% is for your transmission.

For what they do the terms work ... wouldn’t take much creativity to replace them though.

50% used for brake system, 49% clutch, 1% transmission

Agreed.

I wonder if my kids will even know what a clutch is ? Lol  Do people still drive standards outside of some hot rods ?

js82

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2020, 05:18:30 AM »
I hate this so much. Not because I'm so attached to specific terms, but because it feels so manipulative. Like 1984 new speak where the language is purged so that people will not be able to express or even think certain concepts.

This isn't like newspeak at all - the old "norm" was words that were used figuratively, whose meanings were steeped in historical institutions that many find offensive.  Figurative language has the additional downside that it tends to translate poorly across languages, making it less clear to those who group up speaking a different language.

As long as we move in the direction of making the terminology more direct and literal, we're doing precisely the opposite of what you're claiming(and what Orwell was railing against) - we're moving in the direction calling things what they are, instead of using figurative language or an odd colloquial substitute.

I like the white/blacklist change. They're useless. They don't tell you *what*. hosts.allow, hosts.deny all the way, like unixes.

Agree.  Moving towards more direct, literal language should be a *good* thing.

Schaefer Light

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2020, 05:26:54 AM »
Do we also have to stop using male and female to describe electrical connectors?  Some of those connectors might identify with a different gender.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2020, 05:32:15 AM »
Do we also have to stop using male and female to describe electrical connectors?  Some of those connectors might identify with a different gender.

I know most plumbers and electricians may be neutral about the terms, but when I was a kid and first learned the terms my reaction was "ick, why are they using grownup sex terms for hoses?"

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2020, 05:42:56 AM »
Do we also have to stop using male and female to describe electrical connectors?  Some of those connectors might identify with a different gender.

I know most plumbers and electricians may be neutral about the terms, but when I was a kid and first learned the terms my reaction was "ick, why are they using grownup sex terms for hoses?"
As a biologist who teaches invertebrate zoology and vertebrate ecology I’d just like to point out that MOST animals do not follow the human/mammalian model of internal fertilization with the male inserting into the female.

Why we assume electronics and plumbing follow the mammalian paradigm and not, say, that of Arthropoda is an open question.

Imma

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2020, 06:23:35 AM »
So... my company informed everyone today that we are to remove offensive terms from our codebase.
Offensive terms are : whitelist/blacklist, master/slave and white hat/black hat. I kid you not, that’s the work that we will have to do. When that was announced, no one said a word and neither did I, given how I am not at FI yet. So no clue what my colleagues think of it, but wanted to bring it to this forum. Am I the only one to think that is ridiculous and a disturbing trend?



I am  an unabashed  free-speech absolutist  so yes I do share your concern.

I don't see the free speech aspect. Freedom of speech means the government can't prosecute you for what you say. I support that 100% even when it concerns ideas I think are very wrong.

But a company choosing to change vocabulary because of changing norms in society has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Societies change, ideas change, words change to reflect the development. My company used to have a personnel officer, now we have a human resources manager. That's not just a new name but a new idea about that role. And where many people used to accept the idea of superiority of one race over the other, and superiority of males over females, and accepted terminology that reflected those ideas, now most people no longer think that's ok.

My partner has the freedom to call me every slur he can think of, but I have the right to leave him if he does. If you use certain speech at work, the employer has a right to fire you. That doesn't mean your freedom of speech is taken away - the government doesn't care at all if you shouted the F-word at your boss - it just means actions have consequences.

In my language, my profession literally doesn't have a word for a female professional. As a female professional, it bothers me that there is literally not even a word for me. I don't want a female title, I wish there was a neutral term to describe people in my profession without linking it to gender.

I had never even heard of these software terms but I totally see why they are being replaced with a better word.

YttriumNitrate

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2020, 07:17:45 AM »
As a biologist who teaches invertebrate zoology and vertebrate ecology I’d just like to point out that MOST animals do not follow the human/mammalian model of internal fertilization with the male inserting into the female.
Why we assume electronics and plumbing follow the mammalian paradigm and not, say, that of Arthropoda is an open question.

Indeed, we base the nomenclature of most things after ourselves. Even our common numbering system is based off the standard human model (and potentially discriminatory/ablest against polydactyl people who are still suffering after their portrayal in The Princess Bride). Perhaps one day we'll drive down the road at Ɛ7 KPH.

Laura33

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2020, 07:21:18 AM »
Software engineering as a profession is pretty notorious for being less inclusive that it could and should be. When a person of color in your organization speaks up and says that looking at "masters" and "slaves" in their code every day makes them uncomfortable, there are two ways to react. You can either say "you know what, I've never thought of it that way before, and so your complaint is clearly nonsense," or you can say "you know what, I've never thought of it that way before, and I may not fully understand your point, but I value you as a colleague and am willing to put in a bit of work to change to a nomenclature we can all feel good about." Which one you choose speaks volumes about your organization.

+1

I am old enough to recall clearly the days when there was a huge backlash about words like "fireman" and "chairman."  And yet somehow we've managed to shift to "firefighter" and "chair," and the world hasn't ended.

If this bothers you, I'd suggest you think long and hard about why.  Either the specific words we use matter, or they don't.  If you believe words matter, then it makes complete sense to think about why using certain terms may land hard on friends/coworkers who are different from you.*  If you don't believe words matter, then why exactly are you so angry about changing them?

But wait, it's Orwell in action!! Uh, yeah, no.  Don't even try.  Doublespeak is expressly designed to obfuscate the truth by reversing the plain meaning of words -- good is bad, bad is good -- in a cynical attempt to buttress government power.  You know, politician-speak.  What we are talking about here is the exact opposite:  making language more clear and more direct by using terms that literally describe what is happening, and that have the added bonus of not perpetuating long-held stereotypes and alienating/hurting members of our society. 

Finally, I do think it is interesting that the knee-jerk response to this sort of thing is "free speech!"  Because you are literally complaining about how someone else has chosen to exercise their free speech rights.  The reality is that every single person here is entirely free to continue to refer to the master/slave relationship as much as you want, and the government has zero right to penalize you for doing so.  And every single person here has exactly the same right to say "I'm not going to use that term any more." 

What you're really complaining about is capitalism -- because the government can't restrict your speech, but your employer sure can.  We've already established that your employer has the First Amendment right to decide what terms it wants to use for different aspects of its business.  And as the boss, it also has the right to require you to use those terms for consistency and clarity of communications.  If they want to call a male connector a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious connector, and they want to call a female connector Jo, then it's your job to call a male connector a supercalifragilisticexpialidocious connector and a female connector Jo.  If you don't like the terms they want to use for various things, you have every right to advocate within your company to change them ("boss, do you really want to make us write out 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious' every single time we need to refer to that kind of connector?").  And if your boss does not agree with your reasoning, you have every right in our capitalist economy to leave for another job where they use language you are more comfortable with.  Or, you know, to go vent on a discussion board about all the dumb-ass things your company is doing, just like everyone else does.


*And if you don't innately "get" why some people who are not you are bothered by those terms, perhaps instead of dismissing their experience as ridiculous, do a little research into the long history of why the good guy always wears the white hat and the bad guy always wears the black one.

GuitarStv

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2020, 07:24:48 AM »
At first glance these seem like weird/nonsensical things to get upset about, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

I couldn't explain to you what is offensive about all of these terms, but what seems nonsensical to me is making a stink about a simple change in terminology. If anything, the new alternatives are clearer. How is switching going to hurt anyone? This isn't the first boring task that's ever been assigned and it won't be the last.


I wasn't really trying to 'make a stink'.  Just a bit confused.  How does getting rid of a term that refers to cowboy westerns help race relations?  Black hat/white hat seems like a weird thing to target . . . and like it was chosen by someone ignorant of the etymology of the term.

sherr

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Re: Software going politically corect
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2020, 07:40:27 AM »
As a Software Engineer: no this does not concern me at all. I can assure you that the software does not care at all what terms you use for something. If using a different term for something makes your coworkers feel less uncomfortable at work then why wouldn't you want to use it?

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!